Date   
Re: Best Paint Match for Southern Boxcars in early 1950s

George Eichelberger
 

I noticed something on my photo of Sou 27085 I cannot explain….

I have only been to Russell, KY once, the week after I left the USMC in Dec ’68 (not something I’d forget). The car in the photo has a “HE 8-70” stencil. I will find the original Kodachrome slide and check the date.

Ike

Re: Best Paint Match for Southern Boxcars in early 1950s

George Eichelberger
 

The question is a cross posting from Allen Cain on the Southern Yahoo group:

What would be the best TruColor paint match for Southern boxcars in the early 1950s?

And would anyone please offer other recommendations?

-----

If I had to name THE question we hear asked the most, I would have to say “what color IS Southern Freight Car Brown”?

An answer to a railfan’s inquiry years ago in the SRHA archives begins, approximately, “The Southern does not have paint color specifications”. We have data showing which vendors provided the color to the railroad and various carbuilders. Southern was particular to the point of buying paint and having it shipped to Pullman-Standard, ACF, etc. so only their selected vendor, color and characteristics was used on its rolling stock.

BTW, the use of freight car brown on Southern house cars goes back to just after 1900 when the newly organized railroad starting buying freight cars.

Because different vendors and formulations were used over the years, and everything changed with the decision to stop using lead based paints, we cannot judge the color shift in almost any in-service color photo.

Before his passing, Frank Greene did extensive research on Southern paint colors, including receiving paint samples. If anyone is interested, they are welcome to continue and document Frank’s work.

The railroad’s color standards were described by “drift cards” of each standard color. Although converting the attached scan from a tiff to a jpeg image would effect the color (plus us looking at the card on our RGB based computer screens), here is the drift card for Specification 137 brown freight car paint dated Feb., 1957. Maybe someone could compare the color to all “box car red” model paints and answer Allen’s question.

My photo of Southern 27085, also attached, was taken on a train entering the C&O Russell, KY yard in late December., 1968. I use it as my personal color reference for Southern box cars.

Ike





Re: "Thin" lettering on Southern's last car orders

Ryan Harris
 

Thanks for posting the high resolution version, Ike.

I'd really love to see those drawings 332-151 & 152. I know Mask Island would make some great decals with this information.

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX

"Thin" lettering on Southern's last car orders

George Eichelberger
 

All:

This is cross posted from "SouthernRailway.groups.io", I think it's worth the bandwidth....

Ike

“Thin” Southern road name lettering
 
For years, I have thought, and told people, that SRHA did not have a stencil drawing of the last version of the “thin” Southern road name lettering. 
 
In the years before the N&W/Sou merger the SR Mechanical Dept. produced fewer and fewer new equipment drawings, relying on car builder drawings exclusively. The attached Ortner “stenciling” drawing OC-5075-7 is for 100T aggregate cars Sou 1109950-109999 from New Car Program (NCP)-226 and apparently was never traced by the Southern.
 
We will re-scan both the 35mm aperture card and the original drawings (in the archives?) to improve on this poor quality example. I’ll make sure scans of this, Ortner drawings 332-151 & 152 and get whatever other similar drawings we can locate to Hubert Mask at Mask Island in case he is interested in producing decals. (The thin lettering, in green, was also used on the last order(s) of 100T covered hoppers but we need to confirm the dimensions are the same.)
 
Ike

 

Re: PS-2s

George Eichelberger
 

Scott:

That is a superb idea! We should pass it along to Kadee AFTER we confirm hatch spacing, I’m not certain all of the CG cars were the same?

Here’s a photo of mine taken in Asheville 2-25 of Sou 95454 (CG file 610, blt 1957). We might be able to find its CofG road number in the archives although virtually all of the maintenance records from Coster Shop were destroyed. 

(We had permission from David Goode to clean out Coster, as we did Hayne, but the Shop Manager apparently had made an arrangement with someone in Knoxville to have the records so he would not let us into the Master Mechanic’s building. I should have called Mr. Goode but let it go as it was a Saturday. So….everything at Coster we did not get was lost.)

Ike



On Oct 12, 2019, at 11:06 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

Ike wrote:

> Am I correct PS-2s are the covered hopper? Kadee has not done them in Southern because their model has the roof hatches in the wrong places.


Yes, PS-2 is Pullman-ease for covered hopper.

Kadee could do a CofG repaint, as illustrated by SOU 95455 on page 98 of Jim Kincaid's Southern color guide by Morning Sun.


Scott Chatfield

PS-2s

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Ike wrote:

> Am I correct PS-2s are the covered hopper? Kadee has not done them in Southern because their model has the roof hatches in the wrong places.


Yes, PS-2 is Pullman-ease for covered hopper.

Kadee could do a CofG repaint, as illustrated by SOU 95455 on page 98 of Jim Kincaid's Southern color guide by Morning Sun.


Scott Chatfield

Re: Kadee double door PS-1s

George Eichelberger
 

Scott is correct about the running boards on the double door box cars. The models (correctly) have Blaw-Knox, or similar running boards (with square MoL holes), the Southern Standard was to use Morton. It’s mot clear why the non-standard running board were accepted but the series of cars was a small order. I think I am correct that Kadee now has 40’ versions of the Morton running boards.

The aluminum roof on the models is probably to represent unpainted galvanized metal. Unfortunately…it looks like an aluminum painted roof which is incorrect.

I don’t expect there was a formal “program” to replace the aluminum doors as that would have been a maintenance expense. The doors did not last (survive) long as they could not stand up to be whacked by fork lift trucks.

Note my earlier post about the SR 40’ PS-1 that used all P-S parts box cars. After a long string of correspondence between Kadee, Ed Hawkins and I, I think everyone agrees the Kadee model is a one of a kind car…the road number on the model is probably the ONLY car delivered with black ends and without a Morton running board.

Am I correct PS-2s are the covered hopper? Kadee has not done them in Southern because their model has the roof hatches in the wrong places. I sent them the drawings for the SR version but do not expect they will produce a Southern version.

Ike

PS Archives work session is next weekend Thurs PM thru Sat. Things are getting organized are we are able to “dig down” into specific details.

PPS The archives, some modeling (and eye surgery) have kept me from posting much to “Modeling the Southern”. I have some passenger car projects I’ll get posted after the work session. Please…if anyone is working a SR model….take some photos and let everyone know what you are working on. The archives volunteers may be able to help with drawings or detais.



On Oct 12, 2019, at 2:40 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

I know Ike has told me the reason why Kadee has done six or seven numbers of the 262865-262899 series double-door PS-1s with the aluminum doors, and no others, but I've forgotten the details.  Something about the running board?  

How long did those aluminum doors last?  Was there a program to replace them?  Something to look for in the archives.

They finally did an as-delivered 40-footer.

I don't recall Kadee doing any Southern PS-2s for that matter.

I've lobbied them to consider doing the USRE rebuild bodies in both 40 and 50 foot.  Would get them a bunch of colorful paint jobs.


Scott Chatfield

Kadee double door PS-1s

D. Scott Chatfield
 

I know Ike has told me the reason why Kadee has done six or seven numbers of the 262865-262899 series double-door PS-1s with the aluminum doors, and no others, but I've forgotten the details.  Something about the running board?  

How long did those aluminum doors last?  Was there a program to replace them?  Something to look for in the archives.

They finally did an as-delivered 40-footer.

I don't recall Kadee doing any Southern PS-2s for that matter.

I've lobbied them to consider doing the USRE rebuild bodies in both 40 and 50 foot.  Would get them a bunch of colorful paint jobs.


Scott Chatfield

Re: Green Light slogan debut

George Eichelberger
 

Scott:

You are certainly welcome…..

As a reminder, the next SRHA archives work session will be Fri and Sat the 18th and 19th of Oct. Several of us will be there starting late Thursday morning if anyone wants to come then.

I have not spoken to Tim Andrews at TVRM lately so I do not know if CSX has moved Southern dining car 3307 (Budd 1949) from Nashville to Chattanooga or what the plans are to move NS office car #8 (ex SR #5) from Madison , IL. I expect TVRM will move quickly to put 3307 in service. Everyone is welcome to help plan, work on (and help pay for!) the restoration of Southern #5.

We will continue to look for drawings, memos and work orders for Southern #5 at the work session.

Join us!

Ike


On Oct 10, 2019, at 3:24 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

Thanks Ike!


Scott Chatfield
<9-19-1968 Green Light memo .jpeg>

Re: Green Light slogan debut

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Thanks Ike!


Scott Chatfield

Re: Green Light slogan debut

George Eichelberger
 

Sorry for the short delay responding….. I’d rather take the time to “look it up” than guess.

Ike



On Oct 10, 2019, at 2:45 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

Anybody recall exactly when GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS first showed up on boxcars?


Scott Chatfield

Green Light slogan debut

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Anybody recall exactly when GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS first showed up on boxcars?


Scott Chatfield

Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

George Eichelberger
 

Re: Jim’s model of the Southern 40’ lo side gons….

May I add that I believe, and have told many people, that it is one of the best, most accurate HO models ever made!

It is just one of the reasons SRHA acquired all of the Southern prototypes from WrightTrak. The Association will make the resin castings of as many of the WrightTrak models available to Southern modelers as possible. We never expect to recover SRHA's purchase cost but felt simply preserving the masters and molds was something the group needed to do.

Ike


On Aug 5, 2019, at 4:47 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

I’m always thrilled when Southern history is saved, especially for future service.  The 2 gons have particular interest to me because I’ve produced the 1945 PS rebuild in HO, S and O (shipping now).  I know TVRM is very good when it comes to accurately restoring equipment.  The gons, possibly from Eastern Shore RR, have a very diverse history.  ESHR had, I think, 5 of these low sides in service as ferry idlers.  Attached are pix of 2.  They appear identical (PS end with darts is a clue) 11-rib style from the 1945 rebuild program.  It’s doubtful a car number is still visible on the centersill but that would be all that’s needed to determine a car’s history.  Glad they are saved … likely the only ones to be so.
 
Jim King
 

-- 
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com<Eastern Shore 583 Little Creek VA 8-3-2002 R. Underwood Kodachrome lo rez.jpg><Eastern Shore 581 Little Creek VA 8-3-2002 R. Underwood Kodachrome lo rez.jpg>

Presidents; File Finding aids and Southern Piggyback

George Eichelberger
 
Edited

In case anyone is not subscribed to the SouthernRailway.groups.io list, here is a post from yesterday that includes a link to the draft versions of all of the SR Presidents' files finding aids. There are files on many of the Southern's equipment leases and trusts over the years that are useful for the various rolling stock books.

And, yesterday I scanned the General Arrangement drawings for several P-S piggyback flat cars. That may be too "hardware" related for a TIES article but I'll publish them here if there is any interest. IMHO, Southern piggyback and intermodal in general is pretty much untouched in photos or articles.

Ike

-------
They are not perfect but the enclosed Google Drive link will allow everyone to download a copy of the current draft of the Southern Railway Presidents' Files Finding Aids.

We need to begin an archives work session project to "QC" each entry against the contents of the files and make whatever corrections or additions we need. You'll note the intro to each year mentions the entry is "representative" of its contents. The folder includes MS Word or Excel files for each year since the formation of the Southern. (The Google Drive viewer appears to want to alter the Excel files but let's simply ignore that for now. It may be best to download them...)

The link (open in your browser) is:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tqb3kBvEvyRo5dRvJcPmL7KfW0M1nA-4?usp=sharing

I find myself constantly wanting to "click" on an entry so I can see the entire file (some have 200 pages). Maybe someday, with enough volunteer or paid help, that will be possible but for now folks will need to go the the archives to see their contents. Please understand, we do not have enough volunteers to respond to all requests for copies or scans. Priority will go to anyone working on articles for TIES, another historical group's publication or one of the commercial magazines. If anyone has ideas of how we might obtain a grant, we could pay students from the Univ of TN-Chattanooga to help.

Either plan on attending one of our third-weekend work sessions or send an email to archives@... if you plan to be at TVRM on other days so you can access the files and do your own research. (Looking though files and seeing 4501 under steam just across the street is worth the trip.)

Ike

Groups and Paint

milepost 131 <mp131.ghandrews@...>
 

This IS being cross-posted to the two yahoogroups and the groups.io

 

 

The things I don’t know:

 

1. What’s up with photo/files/messages

2 Depot Paint

 

Why we have members asking about files and photos…

 

 

 

Now to the various and sundry internet discussion groups- shades of the old days when SRHS and SRHA co-existed.

 

At Yahoogroup.

 

Southern_Railway and Southern Railway Modeler exist.

 

Southern_Railway (Yahoo) indicates 896 member (active -unknown)

It has a file and photo section that members CAN access.

 

Southern Railway Modelers (Yahoo- Southernmodeler) 828 members. It has Files and Photos section.

 

As far as I know neither Yahoogroup has direct ties to SRHA…

 

And then there are the groups at groups.io:

 

SouthernRailway

A “main group” with 132 members

Only photos are those which have been “pulled from email attachments and no files.

Under this is a sub-group

ModelingTheSouthern with 21 members

Again ONLY photos are those sent as attachments (SIX as of this writing)

 

If you are confused at this point- welcome to the club.

 

The groups.io seem to be associated with SRHA (but this might not be true)

 

So it would appear that we have “diversity” of discussion groups and anyone interested in Southern Railway needs to have their feet planted “firmly” in two worlds. As I said it reminds me of ancient history when SRHS and SRHA existed.

 

I’m not sure who the owners/moderators are of any of the groups not that it matters but it is a shame we can’t all get on the same page regardless…

 

 

 

So.. it looks like you’ll have to do what I’ve been doing… have membership in both Yahoogroups and groups.io. (I’m not even sure whether these two providers will welcome discussion groups long term.)

 

FYI- I migrated a group from Yahoo to groups.io a while back because it was better supported at groups.io. To each his own.

 

But the next time you see a member say… but I can’t post a file or a photo…. you’ll know why.

 

 

NOW TO MY SOUTHERN RAILWAY MESSAGE!

 

 

2 DEPOT PAINT

 

The color of depots on the Southern Murphy Branch circa 1942.

Based on a photo of Whittier (circa 1909) Seems to be the yellow/green scheme

Bushnell Clodfelter photo *(circa 1916) and TVA Archives (yellow/green)

Balsam – a few early photos (yellow/green)

 

It would seem that depots were the pre-1925 scheme unless they needed painting. (including white trim??)

I have not found any photos which appear to be the green with yellow trim.

Yes there are photo of the post 1945 scheme of gray with white trim.

 

BTW, the yellow used at Montpelier station (you can find photos on line are based on mass-spec analysis of paint layers done during a very good restoration effort.

 

Now some depots that have been restored do show the yellow. Some show the yellow/green. Some have red doors some have yellow white.

 

If anyone has definitive info on any depot paint with time etc. A few of us might be interested.

when I get my depot of Bryson City (circa 1942) guess where I'll post the photos <G>


Gordon Andrews

 

Re: SRHA has purchased all of the WrightTrak Southern freight cars

Thomas Sullivan
 

Ike, I would be interested in the gondola and flatcar. My interest are an earlier era ie 1900-1920.
Tom 
Anderson, SC


On Jul 1, 2019, at 2:50 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

With so much going on getting ready for the archives dedication, the SRHA BOD has not been able to finalize planning for the WrightTrak models, but we are getting close.

I expect the first model we will put back into production will be the Southern bay window cab. We will have a drawing pack on the Grab web page along with the model body and some etched parts. Our logic is that modelers interested in assembling accurate resin models (and to keep prices down)  will have trucks, couplers and other detail parts so SRHA does not need to provide them. We will provide a list of correct parts with the body shells. When I say "in production", To avoid tying up cash for inventory waiting to be sold, we will produce a dozen or two dozen at a time for people that pre-order with a small quantity for first-come first served orders.

I would like to see the 53' PS gon, the 40' low side gon and the 40' flat car available. If there is enough interest (let us know!), we will produce coil steel covers for the 53' gon. In fact, please send any comments on which models we should produce, etc.

The 53' gon has always been a favorite of mine because of all of the variations the Southern used it for. I've attached two photos of kitbashes I have been working on. I don't think it would be possible to do either model without drawings in the SRHA archives. One version was modified and used to carry carbon electrodes to produce aluminum. It has fixed and movable bulkheads to keep the heavy electrodes fro shifting and breaking. The second photo has to be one of the most complex models I've ever attempted. They were modified (from the same 53' gons) to carry track panels for the reconstruction of Inman Yard in Atlanta. I have never spoken to anyone that worked with them that had anything good to say. Track panels (on the bottom of the stack) were moved through other "drone" cars until they reached a "master" car that included a boom to lower panels out the far end.

Ike
<IMG_3091.jpg>
<IMG_3094.jpg>

Re: SRHA has purchased all of the WrightTrak Southern freight cars

George Eichelberger
 

With so much going on getting ready for the archives dedication, the SRHA BOD has not been able to finalize planning for the WrightTrak models, but we are getting close.

I expect the first model we will put back into production will be the Southern bay window cab. We will have a drawing pack on the Grab web page along with the model body and some etched parts. Our logic is that modelers interested in assembling accurate resin models (and to keep prices down)  will have trucks, couplers and other detail parts so SRHA does not need to provide them. We will provide a list of correct parts with the body shells. When I say "in production", To avoid tying up cash for inventory waiting to be sold, we will produce a dozen or two dozen at a time for people that pre-order with a small quantity for first-come first served orders.

I would like to see the 53' PS gon, the 40' low side gon and the 40' flat car available. If there is enough interest (let us know!), we will produce coil steel covers for the 53' gon. In fact, please send any comments on which models we should produce, etc.

The 53' gon has always been a favorite of mine because of all of the variations the Southern used it for. I've attached two photos of kitbashes I have been working on. I don't think it would be possible to do either model without drawings in the SRHA archives. One version was modified and used to carry carbon electrodes to produce aluminum. It has fixed and movable bulkheads to keep the heavy electrodes fro shifting and breaking. The second photo has to be one of the most complex models I've ever attempted. They were modified (from the same 53' gons) to carry track panels for the reconstruction of Inman Yard in Atlanta. I have never spoken to anyone that worked with them that had anything good to say. Track panels (on the bottom of the stack) were moved through other "drone" cars until they reached a "master" car that included a boom to lower panels out the far end.

Ike

Re: Allen Cain

charliecatsrr
 

Allen,
I need to send you an e-mail with a description of and prices for the Southern Railway books.  I'm not ready to send them to everyone.
J. C. Paschal

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 10:37:15 AM EDT, charliecatsrr via Groups.Io <charliecatsrr@...> wrote:


Allen I have misplaced your latest e-mail address.  I wold appreciate your reply with your current e-mail address.

J. C.  Paschal

Allen Cain

charliecatsrr
 

Allen I have misplaced your latest e-mail address.  I wold appreciate your reply with your current e-mail address.

J. C.  Paschal

Southern Railway books for sale

charliecatsrr
 

I need to sell some of my Southern Railway & other south eastern railway books.

These include, but not limited to Southern Steam Locomotives & Boats by Richard E. Prince, Southern Steam Power by Harold E. Ranks & Shelby F. Lowe.  This book is autographed by Shelby Lowe.  I also have at least a dozen more books.  Is anyone interested?

J. C. Paschal