Date   
Re: [bbfcl] Southern 43000-series PS-1s

D. Scott Chatfield
 

I did some digging on Kadee's website and it looks like they've only done cars from Southern's 262865-262899 series (assigned to CNO&TP).  These were 50-ton cars with DF loaders built in 1960.  Pullman lot #8586.

This makes sense from Kadee's standpoint since they started doing these cars before they had a cushion underframe.  But they could also do cars from Southern's 34903-34917 group, built in the same lot but with different internal fittings.  

And now that they do have a cushioned underframe, they could do the 43000-series cars.  Stick 100-ton trucks under them and Bob's your uncle.

I know I've seen a Kadee double-door 50-footer on a layout with a 43000-series number (maybe George's?) but it must have been a custom paint job, not a Kadee factory job.

Considering how many single door 50-foot PS-1s Southern had, I'm surprised Kadee has never offered one (at least to my knowledge, and there's none listed on their out-of-stock list).  Since they have done CofG and Georgia & Florida, whose cars were eventually repainted Southern, why not?

Scott Chatfield

Re: Southern 43000-series PS-1s

George Eichelberger
 

The aluminum doors on these cars were the result of Alcoa complaining to the Southern that they were a huge shipper but the railroad was not buying enough aluminum. The complaint led to aluminum doors, Silversides the all-door cars and Big Johns.

There are several memos on the problem in the archives. I suspect few of the aluminum doors lasted until the roof walk was removed, etc, fork lift drivers showed them no mercy.

Ike

Southern 43000-series PS-1s

D. Scott Chatfield
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DUPLICATE-SLIDE-Southern-SOU-43023-Box-Car-FRESH-Paint-Dallas-TX-1966/392145714875

Did you notice the 100-ton trucks?  I hadn't before seeing this shot.

I sure many of you have one of Kadee's double-door PS-1s with "aluminum" doors.  They must be popular because they keep redoing them.  Well, I don't have one, because I never shot one with aluminum doors.

I assume the aluminum doors were replaced when the running boards were removed, brake wheel lowered, and ladders cut down.  Is this a correct assumption?

Scott Chatfield

moloco Southern FGE = "The Beer Car"

George Eichelberger
 

All:

I trust it will be OK with NIck Molo if I forward his “Master Class” discussion to the group. I’ve posted it on the Southern Railway (not only “modeling”) group because of its business and operating information.

Nick always does the research needed to produce excellent models and background information to go along with them. His Southern leased FGE cars are superb models. As I have mentioned before, modelers need to support high quality manufacturers by purchasing their kits and RTR offerings while they are available.

I have always been interested in the large number of insulated box cars Fruit Growers built for the Southern. They include:

Southern 70-ton 52 ft. 6 in. Insulated Box Cars Built by Fruit Growers Express Co.
Southern 70-ton 52 ft. 6 in. SCUF Insulated Box Cars 650-899, NCP-177
SCUF Insulated Box Cars 201-299 and 585000-585199, NCP-188
CUF Insulated Box Cars 585200-585699, NCP-201
SCUF Insulated Box Cars 100-299 and 585000-585199, NCP-201-A
CUF Insulated Box Cars 584824-584999, NCP-211 and NCP-212
CUF Insulated Box Cars 585700-585923, NCP-211-A

I’ve suggested that Moloco might offer these but, unfortunately, they are unique to the Southern. As Nick pointed out, FGE was really in the car assembly business. They bought parts; roofs, ends, side and specialties fro multiple vendors and did final assembly at their plant in Alexandria, VA. The combination of parts used on the Southern’s orders were not used on other roads’ cars.

As Nick mentions, many of the Southern and CofG leases were for beer service from various breweries. The cars in the “New Car Programs” (NCPs) listed were almost all for cars to be used for a new Miller brewery under construction at Eden, NC. They have their own section in Book 2 of the upcoming SRHA 50’ box car book. (Photos or information about any Southern rolling stock are certainly welcome.)

A project at archives work sessions needs to be to review the NCP files to make sure the chapter includes all of the data we have. We’ll be at the archives at least twice in November and another two or three times in Dec. If you are interested in attending, send an email to archives@....

Ike



Begin forwarded message:

From: moloco <molocotrains.yahoo.com@...>
Subject: moloco Southern FGE = "The Beer Car"
Date: November 3, 2018 at 8:41:41 PM EDT
To: <geichelberger@...>
Reply-To: <molocotrains@...>


moloco Southern FGE master class
= "The" Beer Car
the numbers
Southern had 1179 insulated boxcars leased from FGE, that includes it's subsidiary lines, like Central Of Georgia or Norfolk Southern. Of those, 461 were of the 10-foot centered design with single rivet pattern like Moloco currently offers. Part of which there is a solid block of Southern cars that were assigned as BEER CARS. The beer companies serviced were Miller, Pabst and Falstaff.

the locations
During the era of these cars in service, Miller had several plant locations, firstly Milwaukee, then later Fort Worth in 1969, Albany, GA in 1979, Irwindale, CA in 1980, Elkton, VA in 1987. Pabst had a few plants itself, again in Milwaukee, Peoria, IL in 1934, Perry, GA in 1968 (railroad location was Pabst, GA). Falstaff was from St. Louis and other plants through acquisitions Omaha, NE (Krug, 1936), New Orleans, LA (National 1937), Fort Wayne, IN (Berghoff 1954), Galveston, TX (Galveston-Houston 1956), El Paso, TX (Mitchell 1956), Rhode Island (Narragansett 1965).

With the recent releases of FGE RBLs I wanted to continued the series of master classes and specifically it's relationship with Beer traffic. Southern was involved with many national car pools and therefore no stranger when soliciting beer loadings understanding the lucrative nature and year round revenues. These pools would involve multiple railroads that would serve these listed plants and then many distributors across the nation.

For this instalment of master class the focus will be for the two pairs of Southern FGE cars produced by Moloco. Two for Miller and two for Pabst. The Southern return route rectangle so common on FGE boxcars had return locations of Milwaukee, WISC on the Milwaukee Road for Miller Brewing and Pabst, GA on the Southern for the Pabst Brewing cars. The other cars produced by Moloco in the past that were in beer service were Rock Island General American RBLs for Pabst Brewing in Peoria, IL, which may also translate to the ROCK cars as well at later dates. Moloco RI #6508 was a specific car number of many that we know were in Pabst service. The EL GA RBLs assigned car numbers #68301, #68305, #68319 and #68351 to Miller Brewing, even though we didn't make those specific numbers in that run. The hometown road of Milwaukee Road most likely served one or all of the brewers in town, see the available Moloco examples below. We also believe but could not confirm Wabash, MODX, MP and WADX RBLs being in Anheuser-Busch service. We also believe the SOO General American RBLs we produce a few years back also were in beer service, but not sure out of which of the many upper Midwest brewers that they could have served.

We can speculate from the above information that these national brands were being delivered by these Southern cars to all parts of the country before more localized beer plants were set-up. Meaning that even the west coast and mountain time zones received Miller High Life and Pabst Blue Ribbon!


SKU #33054 SOUTHERN repaint AX 4-65 (2 car numbers) - re-weighed/repainted at the FGE Alexandria, VA shop in 1965. It has the brown end double stripe scheme typical of that era. Note how the rivet strip on the ends is prototypically painted yellow. It has it's typical application of Morton tread roofwalk, Moloco is the only manufacturer to produce this a roofwalk accurately with up and over roof rib profile. FGE cars of this era had their full roof painted silver as well, presumably for heat protection/reflection from the sun. Being a 1965 repaint it still has it's full height ladders.

SKU #33024 SOUTHERN repaint AX 1-75 (2 car numbers) - re-weighed/repainted at the FGE Alexandria, VA shop in 1975. Note at this period of FGE practice the cars were painted all yellow and the A end ladders were cut down and roofwalk removed. However, roofwalk brackets remained on the roofs, accurately produced. Note the diagonally stacked For Greatest Efficiency logo starts directly under the FRUIT for the all yellow scheme. It also has an ACI label and COTS.


SOUTHERN 791508 - Represents the 1965 cars in this case. SOUTHERN 791500 - Represents the 1975 cars. This close-up shows the return route railroad CMSTP&P RR for the earlier cars whereas the later car has SOU RWY instead. Look at the differences in the rectangular return route boxes; 791508 has a 5 line return route, whereas 791500 has a 4 line one typical found on later era cars. The Lading Band Anchor symbol on the door is present on the older car and has been removed on the all yellow car. This also highlights changing stenciling practices on the door data and positions. Even though the reporting marks and numbers seem to be in the same position on the car sides, the CAPY block and Insulated -Cushioned lettering have moved around slightly which is to be expected with a ten year gap. Ironically, the 1975 repainted cars has floor loading (25K) and L and R stenciling applied to the left side of the door opening. Paint data in the top left also matches the repaint date and type of paint used, a common FGE practice.

Surely some one drinks beer on your model railroad...Cheers!





POOL CARS - Above 4 examples of 3 schemes that we have produced that were to our knowledge were in beer service. Specific Rock Island General American RBLs were in the Pabst nationwide pool. Four specific car numbers mentioned above were in Miller Brewing service, our example shows how they looked. The other 2 cars represent most likely beer service cars in the Milwaukee area. These cars represent 1979 repaints of the distinctive yellow doored cars. Note the differences between these almost identical schemes. They still have the LRD lettering on the doors, albeit a lot smaller. See our previous master class on Milwaukee cars for the specifics.

I hope you've learnt something about Southern FGE boxcars and the partnership with beer service. We are glad to give an insight of what we go through to bring you the best products in the industry. We hope to produce additional runs of the RI and EL cars in the future, so one can fill out their beer fleet if they missed out the first time - Nick Molo, owner moloco
Remember that shipping is only $9.99 for 1-5 cars and FREE SHIPPING for 6 cars and over, for USA customers.
Copyright © 2018 moloco, All rights reserved.

molocotrains@...

Murphy Welded Roof

mike turner
 

Does anyone know of a source for an HO model of the Murphy welded roof similar to that shown in SF-5210?

These were used on the bay window Hayne cabooses similar to X-3115 (X-3099 - X-3178).

The MILW ribside roof has been suggested as a source but the edges would required significant rework since the desired roof width seems to be 8'. Both Intermountain and Exactrail have made models for the MILW and they seem available.

A Branchline NYC Despatch roof has also been suggested but a good photo has not been found to see how close. and they appear somewhat rare.

Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35

Re: [bbfcl] An early low-bulkhead flat

George Eichelberger
 

Re: Bulkhead flat 115757 (Southern series 115750-115774)

An interesting car! The series was modified by Evans and renumbered in 1964 under Special Car Program (SCP) 754 from wood racks 120998-122997. They were 50-ton capy cars built in 1938-39 per diagram book page F-2111. (Available from the SRHA grab but there are not many left.)

The 120998-122997 cars were themselves rebuilt from 175000-176344 50-T D.D.B. gons.

The SRHA drawing list shows three drawings used for the modification. I’ll check the microfilm but they have not been scanned yet. (Scott, a good project on our next trip to Chattanooga.) The rebuild drawings include: SF-21257, -21316 and -21877. The last drawing shows the side sill modification. The photo of 115757 shows the plate welded along the entire side sill. (Note the photo also shows an 8-38 blt date that corresponds to the 120998-122997 series wood racks.)

With these cars’ “pedigree” there are a lot of drawings but I expect modeling one would be mostly a scratch-built project.

Ike

Re: An early low-bulkhead flat

George Eichelberger
 

We can research the data about the bulkhead flat but are people aware the slide being sold is from an Al Chione set? All his sets are marked as copyright? Selling someone else's work is simply not the thing to do!

Seeing things like this make us hesitate providing photos to anyone realizing they can post or sell it with no credit line.

I sat in on a presentation at Cocoa Beach a couple of years ago. The presenter, at the beginning of his talk, said "he did not have time to research who the photogs were for the photos he was using". I though that was "tacky" but when he flashed a slide on the screen and did not know anything about where or when it was taken, I filled in the details and explained that was MY photo that no one had asked for permission to use. He was indignant that anyone would question his right to use it. All I said was it would have been "nice" if he had done some research so he could at least explain what he was showing...or who took the photo!

Re: [bbfcl] An early low-bulkhead flat

D. Scott Chatfield
 


Tom Mack asked:

> any suggested starting point as a good basis for one of these cars?

I mentioned the fishbelly sidesills because I wonder if the old Athearn 40-foot flat might work if you cut off the stake pockets?  I don't have one to check.  Or just cut new sides from styrene.  Since the deck is just plate steel it's probably easier to scratch the body than modify an Athearn.  Besides, doesn't the Athearn ride too high?

Use the old Cal-Scale Hydra-Cushion detail set or shorten a Details West underframe.

I don't >need< one but I might build one for the heck of it.  I've already begun scratchbuilding a Trailer Train 68-foot bulkhead flat and plan to do a couple other Southerns, so what's another one?.....

Scott Chatfield

Re: [bbfcl] Southern P-S 50 ft Boxcars Series 5000-5499

George Eichelberger
 

All:

These cars are described in the first SRHA 50’ box car book so I won’t duplicate that information here. I did not reproduce the AFE that led to the cars’ being ordered but I am reasonably sure they were not for specific shippers. They were “Specially Equipped” (CSD 145?) so they were not free running or general purpose cars. The largest group of assigned cars appear to be 12’ PD cars to Quaker Oates in Chattanooga.

To say I have “bugged” everyone that produces high quality kits or RTR freight cars to make these cars is an understatement! All have expressed some interest but they have the same problem….apparently only the CofG and Southern bought this design (specifications were produced by the Southern). I have made the point that I think the CofG stencil scheme is one of the best looking ever done on a 50 ft box car (better than the “football”, IMHO). The manufacturers see that as limiting their market for this prototype. Of course, I argue that there are multiple versions and paint/stencil schemes, including Norfolk Southern, that could be done but they (understandably) need to allocate their resources to the biggest sellers.

I don’t know the total number of Exact Rail Southern waffle side box cars or Big John covered hoppers that were sold but the opinion of many model companies that “Southeastern Prototypes do not Sell” is hard to overcome. Modelers that say “that car is not perfect for the month and year I model” and do not buy Sou/CG/ACL/SAL/L&N prototypes when they are available are not helping.

The first SRHA 50’ box car book is less than two dozen copies from going out of print. As this is the second printing, it is not likely we will do a third printing, esp. when there are other books we are trying to finish. They are available through the SRHA GRAB at www.srha.net.

When someone tells me they “model the Southern” but they do not have a copy of the book, I wonder where they get their 50’ box car data from. Book 2 (1962-82) is about 80% complete and will be finished after we get the archives organized. The Southern 40’ box car book will be re-issued as a complete re-write. It will include all of the 40’ rebuilds.

Ike



On Oct 28, 2018, at 11:33 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

[This was posted to the Baby Boomers Freight Car List.  Fowarded here to see if anyone has modeled these series yet.]

Tom Mack wrote:

>Southern received 500 of these interesting Pullman-Standard 50-foot boxcars in 1963:

https://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=87048

>There are also good as-built photos of these in both the Southern and Pullman-Standard color guides.

> Has anyone ever done a model of these (or something close) in HO? Did any other roads get the same or similar cars?

and I replied:

The CofG got 200 nearly identical cars (series 3500-3699) at the same time, which makes me wonder if they were bought for a pool to serve a large customer.  Perhaps Ford?  These cars are basically 50-foot single-door versions of the 60-foot double-plug autoparts boxes built for the Ford Pool.  Athearn has made the 60-footers in HO and N, and I'm planning to shorten one to make a Southern 5000-class.  

One possible source for the 10-foot smooth plug door is the old Details West insulated boxcar.  Unfortunately this was the last carbody variation they did and the hardest to find.  The older Athearn and MDC plug door boxes have narrower doors.  Their might be a newer Athearn/Genesis or Walthers model with this door.  I'll have to keep an eye out.

I also added that the Southern's 5500-5572 are the same basic car but with 12-foot exterior-post plug doors.


Scott Chatfield

[bbfcl] Southern P-S 50 ft Boxcars Series 5000-5499

D. Scott Chatfield
 

[This was posted to the Baby Boomers Freight Car List.  Fowarded here to see if anyone has modeled these series yet.]

Tom Mack wrote:

>Southern received 500 of these interesting Pullman-Standard 50-foot boxcars in 1963:

https://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=87048

>There are also good as-built photos of these in both the Southern and Pullman-Standard color guides.

> Has anyone ever done a model of these (or something close) in HO? Did any other roads get the same or similar cars?

and I replied:

The CofG got 200 nearly identical cars (series 3500-3699) at the same time, which makes me wonder if they were bought for a pool to serve a large customer.  Perhaps Ford?  These cars are basically 50-foot single-door versions of the 60-foot double-plug autoparts boxes built for the Ford Pool.  Athearn has made the 60-footers in HO and N, and I'm planning to shorten one to make a Southern 5000-class.  

One possible source for the 10-foot smooth plug door is the old Details West insulated boxcar.  Unfortunately this was the last carbody variation they did and the hardest to find.  The older Athearn and MDC plug door boxes have narrower doors.  Their might be a newer Athearn/Genesis or Walthers model with this door.  I'll have to keep an eye out.

I also added that the Southern's 5500-5572 are the same basic car but with 12-foot exterior-post plug doors.


Scott Chatfield

An early low-bulkhead flat

D. Scott Chatfield
 

The Southern was definitely ahead of its time.  We generally think of low bulkheads are being a very modern thing.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DUPLICATE-SLIDE-Southern-SOU-115757-Flat-Car-w-High-Wide-Dallas-TX-1965/372459362469

Note the very low bulkhead, Hydra-Cushion stencil, but still has ribbed-back wheels.  One of 25 cars #d 115750-150774 rebuilt by Evans in 1964 from series 120998-122997, which were pulpwood "racks" rebuilt in 1956 from _gondolas_ in the series 175000-176344.

Stenciled as return to Rome, GA, so presumably this transformer came from the GE plant there.

49'9" over the pulling faces because of the cushioned underframe.  Otherwise the body is a typical 40-foot fishbelly sidesill flatcar of the prewar years, even though they started life as low-side gons with straight sills.

Scott Chatfield

Greenville 100 Ton aggregate hoppers

Almufti Hishman
 

Here are two 100 ton aggregate hoppers I have done.
103373 is scratchbuilt, before the Walthers hopper came out. (Yes, I will claim the Dabney award for building a model then seeing a commercial release.)
Not that I was sad about Walthers making this car. I wanted a bunch.
101523 is an undecorated Walthers car, with wire grabs and ladders, slope sheet braces, brake piping and bracing, and more.
Decals are another story. I tried to piece the stenciling, a frustrating failure.
Enter Mr. Hubert Mask. I sent him copies of the many photos of 103373 I had taken about 1988 in Raleigh, and he created the set for this car.
Mask Island Decals have been a blessing for Southern modelers.
Regards,
Jeff Oliver

Southern 114000-114149 bulkhead flat cars

George Eichelberger
 

A cross posting from the MFCL..

Cale:
 
Southern 114000-114149 were built by Thrall under New Car Program (NCP) 186 in 1978. The Thrall General Arrangement drawing is 5-M-001-40, stencil is 5-M-003-50. Virtually ALL of the drawings for these cars are in the SRHA archives at TVRM, some have been digitized. If there is any interest, I can post drawings and photos on the new SRHA Southern Railway modeling group ModelingTheSouthern@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
 
Although I have not attempted the project yet, I have several Intermountain (?) center beam flat kits that could serve as the basis for this car?
 
I’ve attached a nice Gary Anderson photo of Sou 114146 taken in Mulberry, FL in May, 1982.
 
Ike
 
Sou 114146 bulkhead flat Mulberry, FL 5-92.jpeg

Cover Photo for "Modeling the Southern"

George Eichelberger
 

For our first topic in "Modeling the Southern", could someone suggest a "cover" photo of a Southern Model? I had to get rid of the elephants but as you may have noticed, I do not have a good setup for model photos.

Ike