locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN
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John, Warren and others:
At the SRHA archives here in Chattannoga we have a high quality wide format scanner which can handle originals up to 42" wide
We are now also able to create clear mylar carrier sleeves to protect delicate originals
We would be happy to scan appropriate maps such as these at no charge, and to provide the scans for preservation or for sharing
Of course, we'd also love to have a copy for the archives, if you're willing
You're welcome to contact me off list to discuss possibilities
From: "Warren Stephens" <wdstephens@...>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 8:18:12 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Depot for St. Elmo, TN
John, I am not map poor when it comes to Chattanooga. I have a big horse-blanket size late 1890s vintage atlas David Steinberg gave me that has a very detailed track layout. It has street railway and belt trackage and trunk line trackage etc. I also have all the valuation maps for my areas of interest which is TAG and CofG. I have many other railroad and non railroad maps of the Chattanooga area. I would be interested in a copy of the map you reference but my dealings with the National Archives have always been unpleasant. I once flew up in person only to be told they could only print 10 of the 30 pages I wanted because they were snowed under meanwhile everyone was standing around doing absolutely nothing. Well they did take a few moments to discuss lunch plans but other than that they all stood there with their hands in their pockets. Our tax dollars at work. But then if it were easy it wouldn't be fun right?
On Friday, February 12, 2021, 11:56:18 AM EST, John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:
HI folks, Warren and Ike
I worked for an engineering firm based in Chattanooga, Hensely-Schmidt, although I was in Atlanta and Nashville, with only temporary assignment in Chattanooga for bridge inspection work with a wonderful fellow named John Allen, as my boss. He was former B&B Eng for Knoxville, having gone to work for Sou Ry out of NC State Civil Engineering program in 1952. He later retired, went into construction business in Knoxville, sold out, went into consulting for a couple of years, then back to NS in Atlanta coordinating bridge consulting work for NS
Anyway, at one time, I was attending a meeting with the company folks and the Chattanooga Chamber staff about future riverfront development and downtown redevelopment. This was in the late 1970’s
In this meeting a wonderful map was used, a blueprint style, which showed all the RR’s in town and labeled industries and spurs. I believe it was produced as part of the national terminal conference coordinating program of the federal government. All major terminals were required to develop these, to coordinate redundancies and overlap among the RR’s as there were many going into receivership in the Depression years.
I have the map of Birmingham, dated 1935. Much of the program documents are in the National Archives.
Anyway the program was shut down very quickly when it dawned on the government staffers that eliminating redundancies and overlap in cities would cost RR people their jobs – not the thing the government wanted to do in a Depression.
So, wondering, Warren, if you are familiar with that map? I am attaching the title block from the Birmingham map as well as the list of RR’s, which I reckon would have been similar to Chattanooga with a couple of exceptions. The National Archives told me that they didn’t have the Birmingham map in their files. Bham ranked 55th among the nations terminals, with Chicago being #1. Don’t know how Chattanooga would have been ranked.
I’m also attaching a pdf of images from Railway Age articles from a microfilm reader at Bham Public.
Are you familiar with a map from this program for Chattanooga?
My Birmingham copy is about 7’ x 3’ and hangs above the main yard in the railroad room. Great resource.
John R Stewart
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Not only is Chattanooga more “interesting” than Atlanta, there are many files, drawings and photos on the area in the SRHA archives. As far as the files are concerned there were at least eight (by my count) railroads there: Southern (ETV&G), CNO&TP, AGS, Chatt Belt, Chatt Traction, CofG, TAG and NC&StL Many had trackage rights, crossing or switching agreements (incl. the three lines we think of as “Southern).
I just recently found and scanned a complete file on the pre CNO&TP Chattanooga Traction as it was attempting to get rid of street car passenger services so the power company could sell it (1935). Another interesting file covers the time when the AGS (and M&C?) built their own line out to Wauhatchee “through” Lookout Mtn.
Beyond the facilities in Chattanooga, I have been finding more information on passenger trains there than I could imagine existed…starting about 1896. I keep trying to finish an article on the “Florida Sunbeam” but material keeps turning up.
I continue to go up to the archives, generally by myself, to get files to scan but I look forward to restarting archives work sessions some time mid yea.
On Feb 11, 2021, at 5:04 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:
George, Remember Southern had traditionally used trackage rights on NC&StL to gain access to Stevenson Alabama and therefore Memphis (west) and to reach the AGS on the west side of Lookout Mountain (south). This new trackage was supposed to get all the way to Stevenson but for financial reasons, they only made it out as far as the AGS. He is referencing railroad south and not geographically south through St. Elmo.
This new Southern method of egressing town to the west and south was good for Southern but it added yet another busy mainline down town for automobile traffic to contend with. Chattanooga began the interesting process of kicking the railroads out of down town not long after Southern opened this new route. Very strange episode. The city at first wanted the railroads to elevate all their trackage in town. If you ever saw a vintage aerial of Chattanooga, there were 40 foot boxcars parked everywhere. The railroads countered with how would they switch these customers. The railroads did their best to ignore the city till Chattanooga went to the state legislature and had a Chattanooga Rail Authority formed with the ability - through imminent domain - to kick the railroads out of town and at their own expense. There were proposals for a new art deco union station over close to the National Cemetery and this is what brought about the CofG and NC&St.L abandoning their original yards and the relocation of the NC from town to alongside Southern and then both were elevated over Main street. Chattanooga is a most interesting rail hub. Far more interesting to me than Atlanta.
Warren D. Stephens
On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 04:35:14 PM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)
To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles?
Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TAG fan
On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.
In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.
The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).
<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>