Date   
moderated Re: Enoree River

Paul Staller
 

Bill is correct.  The Southern did cross the Eno on the south end of Hillsborough NC.  It's successor (NS/NCRR) continues to do so and I'm very happy to report that during cooler weather I have the good fortune to be able fall asleep at night listening to the trains as they come through town.  What a lullaby.


On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 4:37 PM Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
If there was, it is not listed in the Pullman List for 1961.


-----Original Message-----
From: rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Aug 16, 2019 3:52 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris

moderated Re: Enoree River

rmorris_1
 

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.  I will leave the "Eno River" on the sheet when it comes to lettering one of the 10-6's I have.

I had found lists of Southern sleepers, none listed it, but did have the Enoree River.

And I found out about the smooth-roofed cars that could have been Budd cars. Never knew, or had any reason to know, that Southern had added a smooth covering to the roofs of the Budds.  With the seams, I can see where they could flex and start leaking .

I am working to put together a Southern train to run behind a set of the Walthers E8s I just got. The train will run on our club layout in Crossville, TN, and I will have to deal with the rivet counters that point out inconsistencies. Hope they aren't to common there!

I grew in Atlanta, graduated from Ga Tech, and some afternoons to avoid the downtown connector I would go down Marietta Street. If I timed it right, I would see the engines and any extra cars for the northbound Crescent heading to Peachtree Station.  Usually four engines northbound, and three coming in from New Orleans, or at least the times I remember seeing them.

Richard Morris

Plans for typical Southern Ry. train order station

pschmidt3013@...
 

Anyone have a lead on plans for a typical Southern train order station? I'm particularly interested in the footprint -- what the dimensions of the foundation would be, and whether the foundation would be stone, concrete or timber.

Thank you,
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA

moderated Re: Enoree River

Robert Hanson
 

Luther Calvin Norris (1846-1930) was the father of Southern Railway president Ernest E. Norris.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Aug 17, 2019 12:51 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

Yes, the Royal Arch was a 5 DBR-Obs-Lounge - one of three owned by the SOU built in 1950 for the Crescent and New Royal Palm, the other two being Royal Palm and Royal Court. In 1950, the Royal Arch’s name was changed to Luther Calvin Norris. I don’t know why - does anyone know who "Luther Calvin Norris" was? 1950 was about the time Southern’s president, Ernest Norris, retired - was this his father?

Anyway, the three obs cars were converted by Pullman to 11 DBR cars in September-October 1958 and remained in SOU’s Pullman car fleet into the post-Amtrak era (1971). From the time I started paying attention to SOU passenger trains (1966-present), I would occasionally see an 11 DBR car in service, but not in the timetable - they must have been used as extra cars, for special movements, and on office car specials. The Pullman Company may also have commandeered them from time to time for off-line special movements. Sometime in the early-1970s each of the three 11 DBR cars was equipped with a shower at the end of the hall. (10-6 sleeper Tugalo River was also shower equipped at the same time - I think Roomette 9 or 10 was sacrificed). If you happened to be riding the Southern Crescent when one of the four shower-equipped cars was in the consist, the porter would provide you with a towel and washcloth, and you could use the shower.

In 1974 or thereabouts (anybody remember the exact year?) the northbound Southern Crescent derailed somewhere around Eutaw, Ala. The Luther Calvin Norris was in the consist and damaged beyond repair. To my surprise, Hayne Shop was called on to convert 10-6 sleeper York River to a shower-equipped 11 DBR car, which was renamed Royal Arch

The car at NCTM-Spencer is this car, Royal Arch, which began life as the York River. If my memory serves me correctly, the car still looks like a 10-6 on the aisle side - three widely spaced windows opposite the original bedrooms and five more closely spaced windows where roomettes used to be. If Spencer ever gets around to restoring the car to its Southern Railway appearance, it would be cool if they named it Royal Arch on the bedroom side (where it looks like an 11 DBR car) and York River on the aisle side (where it looks like a 10-6). 

Just sayin’ . . .

—Bill Schafer

On Aug 17, 2019, at 11:29 AM, James <nsc39dash8@...> wrote:

The David Randall guide states Southern purchased 24(2400 - 2423) of the 46 10-6 sleepers in the order.  
Here are the names of the rivers from the Wiley and Wallace guidebook:
Alphalha
Altamaha
Dan
Catawba
Enoree
Flint
Omulgee
Otter
Pacolot
Potomac
Rapidian
Rivanna
Saluda
Seneca
Shenandoah
Rappahannock
St. John’s
Tiger
Tombigbee
Tugalo
Tye
Yadkin
York
Warrior

The CNOTP 3400 cars, 3400 - 3404:

Emory
French Broad
Coosa
Holston
Etowan

I pose this question to the group.  The Royal Arch was rebuilt to a 11 Bedroom sleeper from an observation car of the same name.  This car was involved in a wreck and my understanding is the York river was rebuilt to 11 bedroom to replace the Royal Arch.  Is this true?  The 11 bedroom Royal Arch is at the museum in Spencer should then be originally the York River.

James Wall

There's a diagram for the 10-Roomette-6 Double Bedroom car Enoree River (along with all the other cars in the series) in the 1956 Southern Railway passenger car diagram book in my possession, also a listing for the car in the 1961 Pullman Official List.

There's also a photo of the car on page 75 of David Randall's The Official Pullman-Standard Library - Vol. 7, Southeast Roads.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...>
To: main <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Aug 17, 2019 7:54 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

The Southern Railway had three 10-6 'River'sleepers that had an "E" at the start, Emory River, Enoree River and Etowah River.  You can pick your favorite.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 4:47 AM Gary Bechdol <garyeb1947@...> wrote:
There is a picture of the 10-6 Pullman Enoree River on page 75 of W. David Randall's Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7.  There is no listing of a car named Eno River. 

Gary Bechdol 
Stone Mountain, Ga 

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 11:35 PM Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:
I assumed that the original post on this topic had a typo in the subject line, and that it should have read "Emory River" - but no one ever corrected it.

On the other hand, Ike posted a photo of the "Emory River" car. Reasonable evidence that a car by that name existed - although Ike is pretty good with Photoshop.

Geographically, there is such a thing as the "Enoree River" (in SC), but evidence a car was given that name does not seem to have emerged.

Jim Thurston


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




moderated Re: Enoree River

Bill Schafer
 

Yes, the Royal Arch was a 5 DBR-Obs-Lounge - one of three owned by the SOU built in 1950 for the Crescent and New Royal Palm, the other two being Royal Palm and Royal Court. In 1950, the Royal Arch’s name was changed to Luther Calvin Norris. I don’t know why - does anyone know who "Luther Calvin Norris" was? 1950 was about the time Southern’s president, Ernest Norris, retired - was this his father?

Anyway, the three obs cars were converted by Pullman to 11 DBR cars in September-October 1958 and remained in SOU’s Pullman car fleet into the post-Amtrak era (1971). From the time I started paying attention to SOU passenger trains (1966-present), I would occasionally see an 11 DBR car in service, but not in the timetable - they must have been used as extra cars, for special movements, and on office car specials. The Pullman Company may also have commandeered them from time to time for off-line special movements. Sometime in the early-1970s each of the three 11 DBR cars was equipped with a shower at the end of the hall. (10-6 sleeper Tugalo River was also shower equipped at the same time - I think Roomette 9 or 10 was sacrificed). If you happened to be riding the Southern Crescent when one of the four shower-equipped cars was in the consist, the porter would provide you with a towel and washcloth, and you could use the shower.

In 1974 or thereabouts (anybody remember the exact year?) the northbound Southern Crescent derailed somewhere around Eutaw, Ala. The Luther Calvin Norris was in the consist and damaged beyond repair. To my surprise, Hayne Shop was called on to convert 10-6 sleeper York River to a shower-equipped 11 DBR car, which was renamed Royal Arch

The car at NCTM-Spencer is this car, Royal Arch, which began life as the York River. If my memory serves me correctly, the car still looks like a 10-6 on the aisle side - three widely spaced windows opposite the original bedrooms and five more closely spaced windows where roomettes used to be. If Spencer ever gets around to restoring the car to its Southern Railway appearance, it would be cool if they named it Royal Arch on the bedroom side (where it looks like an 11 DBR car) and York River on the aisle side (where it looks like a 10-6). 

Just sayin’ . . .

—Bill Schafer

On Aug 17, 2019, at 11:29 AM, James <nsc39dash8@...> wrote:

The David Randall guide states Southern purchased 24(2400 - 2423) of the 46 10-6 sleepers in the order.  
Here are the names of the rivers from the Wiley and Wallace guidebook:
Alphalha
Altamaha
Dan
Catawba
Enoree
Flint
Omulgee
Otter
Pacolot
Potomac
Rapidian
Rivanna
Saluda
Seneca
Shenandoah
Rappahannock
St. John’s
Tiger
Tombigbee
Tugalo
Tye
Yadkin
York
Warrior

The CNOTP 3400 cars, 3400 - 3404:

Emory
French Broad
Coosa
Holston
Etowan

I pose this question to the group.  The Royal Arch was rebuilt to a 11 Bedroom sleeper from an observation car of the same name.  This car was involved in a wreck and my understanding is the York river was rebuilt to 11 bedroom to replace the Royal Arch.  Is this true?  The 11 bedroom Royal Arch is at the museum in Spencer should then be originally the York River.

James Wall

There's a diagram for the 10-Roomette-6 Double Bedroom car Enoree River (along with all the other cars in the series) in the 1956 Southern Railway passenger car diagram book in my possession, also a listing for the car in the 1961 Pullman Official List.

There's also a photo of the car on page 75 of David Randall's The Official Pullman-Standard Library - Vol. 7, Southeast Roads.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...>
To: main <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Aug 17, 2019 7:54 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

The Southern Railway had three 10-6 'River'sleepers that had an "E" at the start, Emory River, Enoree River and Etowah River.  You can pick your favorite.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 4:47 AM Gary Bechdol <garyeb1947@...> wrote:
There is a picture of the 10-6 Pullman Enoree River on page 75 of W. David Randall's Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7.  There is no listing of a car named Eno River. 

Gary Bechdol 
Stone Mountain, Ga 

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 11:35 PM Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:
I assumed that the original post on this topic had a typo in the subject line, and that it should have read "Emory River" - but no one ever corrected it.

On the other hand, Ike posted a photo of the "Emory River" car. Reasonable evidence that a car by that name existed - although Ike is pretty good with Photoshop.

Geographically, there is such a thing as the "Enoree River" (in SC), but evidence a car was given that name does not seem to have emerged.

Jim Thurston


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




moderated Re: Enoree River

James
 

The David Randall guide states Southern purchased 24(2400 - 2423) of the 46 10-6 sleepers in the order.  
Here are the names of the rivers from the Wiley and Wallace guidebook:
Alphalha
Altamaha
Dan
Catawba
Enoree
Flint
Omulgee
Otter
Pacolot
Potomac
Rapidian
Rivanna
Saluda
Seneca
Shenandoah
Rappahannock
St. John’s
Tiger
Tombigbee
Tugalo
Tye
Yadkin
York
Warrior

The CNOTP 3400 cars, 3400 - 3404:

Emory
French Broad
Coosa
Holston
Etowan

I pose this question to the group.  The Royal Arch was rebuilt to a 11 Bedroom sleeper from an observation car of the same name.  This car was involved in a wreck and my understanding is the York river was rebuilt to 11 bedroom to replace the Royal Arch.  Is this true?  The 11 bedroom Royal Arch is at the museum in Spencer should then be originally the York River.

James Wall

There's a diagram for the 10-Roomette-6 Double Bedroom car Enoree River (along with all the other cars in the series) in the 1956 Southern Railway passenger car diagram book in my possession, also a listing for the car in the 1961 Pullman Official List.

There's also a photo of the car on page 75 of David Randall's The Official Pullman-Standard Library - Vol. 7, Southeast Roads.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...>
To: main <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Aug 17, 2019 7:54 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

The Southern Railway had three 10-6 'River'sleepers that had an "E" at the start, Emory River, Enoree River and Etowah River.  You can pick your favorite.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 4:47 AM Gary Bechdol <garyeb1947@...> wrote:
There is a picture of the 10-6 Pullman Enoree River on page 75 of W. David Randall's Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7.  There is no listing of a car named Eno River. 

Gary Bechdol 
Stone Mountain, Ga 

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 11:35 PM Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:
I assumed that the original post on this topic had a typo in the subject line, and that it should have read "Emory River" - but no one ever corrected it.

On the other hand, Ike posted a photo of the "Emory River" car. Reasonable evidence that a car by that name existed - although Ike is pretty good with Photoshop.

Geographically, there is such a thing as the "Enoree River" (in SC), but evidence a car was given that name does not seem to have emerged.

Jim Thurston


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC



moderated Re: Enoree River

Doug Alexander
 

If Ike was all that with Photoshop, he’d have shown us a photo of the Eichelberger River!

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Aug 16, 2019, at 11:35 PM, Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:

I assumed that the original post on this topic had a typo in the subject line, and that it should have read "Emory River" - but no one ever corrected it.

On the other hand, Ike posted a photo of the "Emory River" car. Reasonable evidence that a car by that name existed - although Ike is pretty good with Photoshop.

Geographically, there is such a thing as the "Enoree River" (in SC), but evidence a car was given that name does not seem to have emerged.

Jim Thurston


From: "Doug Alexander" <doug_alexander@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:04:48 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

So Bill, was there in fact a 10-6 named “Eno River”? I don’t recall any by that name   

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:34 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Doug:

The Southern does indeed cross the Eno River, at Hillsborough, N.C., just east of Durham. The railroad crossed more rivers than it owned sleeping cars, so not every river received the honor of having a car named after it!

—Bill

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:22 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Richard, 

Southern named their 10-6 Pullman cars for rivers the railroad crossed.  There were scores of them.  And of course, not a one comes to mind at this moment.  But I don't know of an Eno River on the Southern.  There was an Enory River, I think....

Ah well.

Doug A.



On Friday, August 16, 2019, 03:52:03 PM EDT, rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...> wrote:


Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris


moderated Re: Enoree River

Robert Hanson
 

There's a diagram for the 10-Roomette-6 Double Bedroom car Enoree River (along with all the other cars in the series) in the 1956 Southern Railway passenger car diagram book in my possession, also a listing for the car in the 1961 Pullman Official List.

There's also a photo of the car on page 75 of David Randall's The Official Pullman-Standard Library - Vol. 7, Southeast Roads.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...>
To: main <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Aug 17, 2019 7:54 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

The Southern Railway had three 10-6 'River'sleepers that had an "E" at the start, Emory River, Enoree River and Etowah River.  You can pick your favorite.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 4:47 AM Gary Bechdol <garyeb1947@...> wrote:
There is a picture of the 10-6 Pullman Enoree River on page 75 of W. David Randall's Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7.  There is no listing of a car named Eno River. 

Gary Bechdol 
Stone Mountain, Ga 

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 11:35 PM Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:
I assumed that the original post on this topic had a typo in the subject line, and that it should have read "Emory River" - but no one ever corrected it.

On the other hand, Ike posted a photo of the "Emory River" car. Reasonable evidence that a car by that name existed - although Ike is pretty good with Photoshop.

Geographically, there is such a thing as the "Enoree River" (in SC), but evidence a car was given that name does not seem to have emerged.

Jim Thurston


From: "Doug Alexander" <doug_alexander@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:04:48 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

So Bill, was there in fact a 10-6 named “Eno River”? I don’t recall any by that name   

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:34 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Doug:

The Southern does indeed cross the Eno River, at Hillsborough, N.C., just east of Durham. The railroad crossed more rivers than it owned sleeping cars, so not every river received the honor of having a car named after it!

—Bill

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:22 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Richard, 

Southern named their 10-6 Pullman cars for rivers the railroad crossed.  There were scores of them.  And of course, not a one comes to mind at this moment.  But I don't know of an Eno River on the Southern.  There was an Enory River, I think....

Ah well.

Doug A.



On Friday, August 16, 2019, 03:52:03 PM EDT, rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...> wrote:


Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Re: Enoree River

O Fenton Wells
 

The Southern Railway had three 10-6 'River'sleepers that had an "E" at the start, Emory River, Enoree River and Etowah River.  You can pick your favorite.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 4:47 AM Gary Bechdol <garyeb1947@...> wrote:
There is a picture of the 10-6 Pullman Enoree River on page 75 of W. David Randall's Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7.  There is no listing of a car named Eno River. 

Gary Bechdol 
Stone Mountain, Ga 

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 11:35 PM Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:
I assumed that the original post on this topic had a typo in the subject line, and that it should have read "Emory River" - but no one ever corrected it.

On the other hand, Ike posted a photo of the "Emory River" car. Reasonable evidence that a car by that name existed - although Ike is pretty good with Photoshop.

Geographically, there is such a thing as the "Enoree River" (in SC), but evidence a car was given that name does not seem to have emerged.

Jim Thurston


From: "Doug Alexander" <doug_alexander@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:04:48 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

So Bill, was there in fact a 10-6 named “Eno River”? I don’t recall any by that name   

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:34 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Doug:

The Southern does indeed cross the Eno River, at Hillsborough, N.C., just east of Durham. The railroad crossed more rivers than it owned sleeping cars, so not every river received the honor of having a car named after it!

—Bill

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:22 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Richard, 

Southern named their 10-6 Pullman cars for rivers the railroad crossed.  There were scores of them.  And of course, not a one comes to mind at this moment.  But I don't know of an Eno River on the Southern.  There was an Enory River, I think....

Ah well.

Doug A.



On Friday, August 16, 2019, 03:52:03 PM EDT, rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...> wrote:


Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Re: Enoree River

Gary Bechdol
 

There is a picture of the 10-6 Pullman Enoree River on page 75 of W. David Randall's Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7.  There is no listing of a car named Eno River. 

Gary Bechdol 
Stone Mountain, Ga 

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 11:35 PM Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:
I assumed that the original post on this topic had a typo in the subject line, and that it should have read "Emory River" - but no one ever corrected it.

On the other hand, Ike posted a photo of the "Emory River" car. Reasonable evidence that a car by that name existed - although Ike is pretty good with Photoshop.

Geographically, there is such a thing as the "Enoree River" (in SC), but evidence a car was given that name does not seem to have emerged.

Jim Thurston


From: "Doug Alexander" <doug_alexander@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:04:48 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

So Bill, was there in fact a 10-6 named “Eno River”? I don’t recall any by that name   

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:34 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Doug:

The Southern does indeed cross the Eno River, at Hillsborough, N.C., just east of Durham. The railroad crossed more rivers than it owned sleeping cars, so not every river received the honor of having a car named after it!

—Bill

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:22 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Richard, 

Southern named their 10-6 Pullman cars for rivers the railroad crossed.  There were scores of them.  And of course, not a one comes to mind at this moment.  But I don't know of an Eno River on the Southern.  There was an Enory River, I think....

Ah well.

Doug A.



On Friday, August 16, 2019, 03:52:03 PM EDT, rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...> wrote:


Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris


moderated Re: Enoree River

Bill Schafer
 

Enoree River - yes
Eno River - no, no, a thousand times no. 


Another iPhone-generated message

On Aug 16, 2019, at 23:04, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

So Bill, was there in fact a 10-6 named “Eno River”? I don’t recall any by that name   

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:34 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Doug:

The Southern does indeed cross the Eno River, at Hillsborough, N.C., just east of Durham. The railroad crossed more rivers than it owned sleeping cars, so not every river received the honor of having a car named after it!

—Bill

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:22 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Richard, 

Southern named their 10-6 Pullman cars for rivers the railroad crossed.  There were scores of them.  And of course, not a one comes to mind at this moment.  But I don't know of an Eno River on the Southern.  There was an Enory River, I think....

Ah well.

Doug A.



On Friday, August 16, 2019, 03:52:03 PM EDT, rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...> wrote:


Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris

moderated Re: Enoree River

Jim Thurston
 

I assumed that the original post on this topic had a typo in the subject line, and that it should have read "Emory River" - but no one ever corrected it.

On the other hand, Ike posted a photo of the "Emory River" car. Reasonable evidence that a car by that name existed - although Ike is pretty good with Photoshop.

Geographically, there is such a thing as the "Enoree River" (in SC), but evidence a car was given that name does not seem to have emerged.

Jim Thurston


From: "Doug Alexander" <doug_alexander@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:04:48 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

So Bill, was there in fact a 10-6 named “Eno River”? I don’t recall any by that name   

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:34 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Doug:

The Southern does indeed cross the Eno River, at Hillsborough, N.C., just east of Durham. The railroad crossed more rivers than it owned sleeping cars, so not every river received the honor of having a car named after it!

—Bill

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:22 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Richard, 

Southern named their 10-6 Pullman cars for rivers the railroad crossed.  There were scores of them.  And of course, not a one comes to mind at this moment.  But I don't know of an Eno River on the Southern.  There was an Enory River, I think....

Ah well.

Doug A.



On Friday, August 16, 2019, 03:52:03 PM EDT, rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...> wrote:


Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris


moderated Re: Enoree River

Doug Alexander
 

So Bill, was there in fact a 10-6 named “Eno River”? I don’t recall any by that name   

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:34 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Doug:

The Southern does indeed cross the Eno River, at Hillsborough, N.C., just east of Durham. The railroad crossed more rivers than it owned sleeping cars, so not every river received the honor of having a car named after it!

—Bill

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:22 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Richard, 

Southern named their 10-6 Pullman cars for rivers the railroad crossed.  There were scores of them.  And of course, not a one comes to mind at this moment.  But I don't know of an Eno River on the Southern.  There was an Enory River, I think....

Ah well.

Doug A.



On Friday, August 16, 2019, 03:52:03 PM EDT, rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...> wrote:


Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris

moderated Re: Enoree River

Robert Hanson
 

If there was, it is not listed in the Pullman List for 1961.


-----Original Message-----
From: rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Aug 16, 2019 3:52 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris

moderated Re: Enoree River

Bill Schafer
 

Doug:

The Southern does indeed cross the Eno River, at Hillsborough, N.C., just east of Durham. The railroad crossed more rivers than it owned sleeping cars, so not every river received the honor of having a car named after it!

—Bill

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:22 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Richard, 

Southern named their 10-6 Pullman cars for rivers the railroad crossed.  There were scores of them.  And of course, not a one comes to mind at this moment.  But I don't know of an Eno River on the Southern.  There was an Enory River, I think....

Ah well.

Doug A.



On Friday, August 16, 2019, 03:52:03 PM EDT, rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...> wrote:


Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris

moderated Re: Enoree River

Doug Alexander
 

Richard, 

Southern named their 10-6 Pullman cars for rivers the railroad crossed.  There were scores of them.  And of course, not a one comes to mind at this moment.  But I don't know of an Eno River on the Southern.  There was an Enory River, I think....

Ah well.

Doug A.



On Friday, August 16, 2019, 03:52:03 PM EDT, rmorris_1 <rmorris52@...> wrote:


Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris

moderated Re: Enoree River

rmorris_1
 

Walthers has a decal sheet for a "Eno River."  Was there another car with a very similar name?  I wouldn't have thought so to avoid confusion.
Trying to detail a car.

Richard Morris

ICC record interpretation help

A&Y Dave in MD
 

A&Y, Southern, and ICC Valuation Fans,

Can someone familiar with the ICC valuation records help me interpret the attached pages from an engineers' notebook?

These images are of pages from the engineers' notebook describing and valuing bridges and trestles. It came from Box 3386 in the ICC Valuation Records at the National Archives in College Park.  This portion refers to the CF line in Greensboro around mileposts 67-68.  I have the entire set of pages for Valuations Sections 27 (CF line Mt.Airy to Sanford), 27a (SM line Stokesdale to Madison branch) and 27b (CR line Climax to Ramseur Branch) for bridges, for buildings, and for land/right of way.  I'm trying to convert the bridges/trestles pages into a database in Excel to enhance the information I have from the 1912 track chart for the A&Y.  I want each row of the database to describe a single bridge or trestle.  I need help understanding the way the engineer laid out his notes.

  I think the original  "form 519" printed on the page of the notebook was designed to cover one bridge or trestle per page.  But it looks like the blue pencil lines indicate where the engineer added a new entries so that he could use up the whole page.  Only the info in the printed form below the owner info (i.e., kind of structure, name, location) was not repeated for each entry.  So, I'm not sure how many trestles are represented.  It looks like six different ones on two pages, but the maps I have don't show nearly that many (or I'm just not looking far enough because I'm misreading the scale of the Sanborn map).  Any help interpreting the Valuation trestle notes would be appreciated:

On the first page of the "Example-Pages-from-NARA..." file, you see the form itself refers to
Kind of Structure:  Frame Trestle
Name: W.A. Watson Roller Mills
Location: M.P. 68.4                        Length: 18'-04"

and then there is no header for the details (beginning with "Footplank...Metal")

Then there appears to be a header on top of the first blue line:
"Frame Trestle M.P. 68.4.   1 span 12' long"
and then details (e.g., caps, posts, sills...Metal) below the blue line.

Then there appears to be a new header again on a blue line:
"Frame Trestle   M.P. 68.1.   1 span 11'-04" long"
and then details (e.g., caps, posts, sills...GUARDS in blue) below the blue line

Is that THREE trestles (MP 68.4 on the CF line at Watson Roller Mills, MP 68.4,  and MP 68.1)?


On the second page, you see the form itself refers to
Kind of Structure:  Frame Trestles
Name: ____________
Location: M 68.0                        Length: 22'-00"

and then there is no header for the details (beginning with "Guard...")

Then there appears to be a header on top of the first blue line:
"Frame Trestle M.P. 68.0.  Spur left to Industry   1 span 10' long"
and then details (e.g., stringers, caps, sills, etc.) below the blue line.

Then there appears to be a new header again on a blue line:
"Frame Trestle Spur left to Industry  M.P. 67.8.   4 spans 46'-06" long"
and then details (e.g., guard, stringers, caps, etc.) below the blue line


Is that THREE trestles (MP 68.0 on the CF line, MP 68.0 on spur left to industry, and MP 67.8 on a different spur left to an industry)?


Is there anyone on this list with engineering or valuation experience who can help me figure out if I'm interpreting this right?  The mileposts should be located in Greensboro, somewhere south of the Furnace Branch junction and north of West Market Street Crossing, if that helps those of you who know Greensboro.  I've  attached an image from a 1943 detailed map of Greensboro in the vicinity that Marvin Black let me photograph.  I think that unnamed spur might be the "spur to the left" referred to in the notes.  A 1925 Sanborn map of Greensboro contains Prescott street, and I believe  the "trestles" referred to in the engineering record include the one over the "Brook" (which becomes North Buffalo Creek)  between AK Moore and Greensboro Building Supplies spurs, and then one more up above on the spur up to Lassiter Construction.  But that's only TWO, not SIX.  And I cannot find a "Watson Roller Mills" on the Sanborn map (either this 1925 or even on an earlier 1919 version).

So what am I missing?

Dave

--

Sent from David Bott's desktop pc

moderated Re: Low side gons

Jim King
 

Dave … I have a few pix of 9-rib gons; 2 show 1938 and 1941 built dates.  It’s been a LONG time since I researched the 11-rib gon (when I produced the HO kit in 2006) so don’t know if ALL of the 1924-blt 9-ribbed cars were rebuilt to 11 ribs in 1945.  The 9-ribbed car had unique ends … just a flat plate with 2 formed horizontal ribs.  I’ve photographed 11-rib gons in MOW service that clearly show a 1924 build date despite having the 1945 Dreadnaught + darts end.  No mention of 1945 on those cars.  As with all modeling, it’s best to find photos to verify what you want … drawings and “lists” tend to get forgotten during updating, especially when the cars are moved to MOW service.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Extraordinary Obsolesce - Section Houses

Bill Schafer
 

While we’re on the topic, Gordon Andrews recalls that, as a kid in Virginia, he saw the section gangs burning the brush and grass on the right-of-way every year. Here’s my reply:

The spectacle you witnessed - of the section gang burning the right-of-way - was peculiar to Virginia in the sense that it was Virginia law that all railroads - the RF&P, the C&O, the N&W, the SAL and ACL - had to burn their ROW every year. After the section gangs were cut to the minimum, even after dieselization, Southern still had to burn its ROW in the Commonwealth. In later years, this function was performed by contractors. When I was in Southern’s purchasing department (1976-1982), it was my job, at one time, to solicit bids from contractors to burn ROW on most segments of Southern’s main lines in Virginia. Unless the Virginia forestry commission gave SOU a waiver, all ROW with combustible vegetation on it had to be burned, regardless of what the neighbors said. The burning usually took place in the winter or early spring, before the vegetation began to sprout. The law was finally annulled in the 1980s or 1990s.

As far as I know, Virginia was the only state served by the Southern with this law or this requirement. Does anyone know otherwise? Did Southern burn their ROW in any other states?

—Bill

On Aug 9, 2019, at 4:38 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

This sounds as plausible as any theory.  There was the restructuring to simplify the corporate complexity to save money and deal with the funded debt that was due.  This would be another way to save money, and one that was pushed by mechanization and the growing cost of labor after WWII. The economy was growing, but competition was based on reducing labor costs. The unions were nearing their zenith in size and power and the cost per employee was getting higher.  Income wasn't growing quickly that long after WWII and the only way to improve profits was reducing expenses. The biggest expense was the payroll.  And once you reduce the payroll, why keep the supporting infrastructure?

Dave

Friday, August 9, 2019, 11:37:01 AM, you wrote:


Ike:

My sense is that mechanization was a major driver in the reduction, or elimination, of MofW section gangs and the need for section houses. I’d like to see some documentation of this hunch, but Southern, like most other railroads in the 1950s, realized that they no longer needed section gangs every five to ten miles to maintain a given section of track. The sections were expanded in size when routine labor-intensive functions, such as spike driving, tie replacement, or ballast regulating, were economically performed by machines. While mechanization probably came to the large system gangs first, it did eventually trickle down to the sections.

One other consideration was the sense that a pretty railroad was not necessarily a cost-efficient railroad. We all love to see images of main line trains on rock ballasted track with a knife-edge definition to the ballast line. Restoring the roadbed to this condition after routine maintenance was, in the old days, performed manually with shovels and a large straight-edge - it was called dressing the track. As the 1950s progressed, that knife-edge appearance disappeared, not only because of deferred maintenance, but because the railroad no longer believed it needed a pretty right of way.

Another consideration is vegetation control. In the days of sections, weeds and brush were manually cleared to the right-of-way line - maybe 100’ on each side of the track - to prevent fires from passing steam locomotives. Section hands used picks and shovels and maybe scythes or sickles in this process. Once the steam engines disappeared, many railroads, Southern included, stopped clearing brush and weeds by hand, and depended on chemicals from weed spray trains to control stuff growing between, and just outside, the rails. In the Brosnan era, Southern even economized on weed control, spraying diesel fuel on the weeds instead of a specialty chemical. A review of photos of Southern trains from the 1960s will show that diesel fuel was largely ineffective on weeds, and the track and right-of-way really looked ratty.

All factors mentioned above made the old style section gangs - where you had a gang of five or six men and a foreman assigned to a section, which covered five to ten miles of track - an unnecessary luxury. Not all of the massive layoffs among the MofW forces in the 1950s were due to mechanization of the big gangs. Many men from the local section gangs were laid off too.

—Bill  


On Aug 9, 2019, at 7:16 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Two days of work in the SRHA archives has turned up yet another category of Southern Railway data...and a question.

After WWII, there were a number of "programs" that included the retirement of various structures and facilities. Memos show at least 20 different programs but a comprehensive list has not been found. One large system wide program identified structures and tracks no longer needed because of dieselization. Lists of items were prepared, then reviewed to determine which would be removed. Not every item made the final list, for example if a track used to service steam locos was also being used for diesels it would be taken off the list. The timing of the dieselization list is obvious, when a division stopped using steam. That list included all roundhouses, turntables, and coal and water stations as well as any stem rerlated tracks and "appurtenances".

The time of another "program" is not clear. 1951 appears to be when the Southern decided section houses were no longer needed. Can anyone suggest what happened in 1949-51 for the railroad to make the decision to dispose of many section houses: a new labor agreement, an ICC ruling, changes in tax laws?

There are several drawings and many photos of section houses in the SRHA archives, certainly enough for a comprehensive TIES article. I've attached one example of the documents used to sell company property. Although I have always been aware that section houses and depots were sold and then removed from railroad property, the proportion of "sold" properties is much higher than expected. The attached sale document may explain why, even in 1951 dollars, $65 to purchase a house, coal shed and outhouse is a good price, even considering they had to be removed from Southern property in most cases.

Although many section houses were constructed in the 1880s and 90s, some survive today as residences.

Ike <French Lick, IN  section house 79-EB-1.jpg>



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC