Date   
Re: Southern and Southwestern Railway Club

Charles Harris
 

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=0yMwAQAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Ingalls

This link shows excerpts only.  From New Zealand I cannot seem to get the full text. Can someone help?

Southern and Southwestern Railway Club

Charles Harris
 

A follow up to earlier posts on this.     Please refer to info below re above club and where info might be available. As refers to Southern Railway and also other railroads.

I am looking for archives of the magazine issued by Southern & Southwestern Railway Club as attached.  Specifically the 1946 issues which should cover this:

Just looking for advice on above organization in the Atlanta Georgia  area. Where historical records of the club and club newsletters maybe held in Atlanta.  The issued Proceedings and a newsletter regularly for many decades.  Have been in contact with epowerrail.com who currently organize annual meetings etc, and they have not been able to advise location of historical archives.  Are you able to assist or place in your own newsletter my request.  Records maybe in a library of some sort in Atlanta. Any photos taken at this exhibition/demonstration would be great.

On March 21 1946, (ref Atlanta Newspaper 21 March 1946 Page: 14) the Ingalls 4-S diesel loco was on demonstration at Terminal Station Atlanta GA, to L&N, Seaboard, GM&O, and Southern Railroad, arranged by the Southern & Southwestern Railway Club.
How would of this loco got to Atlanta? what paper work would have been required. Was it part of a scheduled freight train? Would have travelled possibly on Southern trackage, from either Ingalls Iron Works in Birmingham AL or from Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula MS. Any reports provided at the time to the railroads of specifications,style, etc would be great. The only date I have is the one above. Not sure when it arrived in Atlanta or when it departed and to where. Eventually purchased by GM&O.

Your comments and advice where to locate would be great.

Charles Harris

New Zealand

Re: Info on last runs of Tr 17 & 18 found

George Eichelberger
 

The SRHA files on Trains 17 and 18 include correspondence and SR internal memos on the trains’ mail and Railway Express services. The mail was moved to a USPO “Star” route (the date may be in the file) and the Southern proposed moving express (it was considered profitable) by truck from Asheville to Murphy. That plan appears to have been moving along until trucking companies saw it as a way for railroads to enter the trucking business.

None of the items in the Murphy Branch files imply that was the Southern’s intent but the plan was abandoned because of the truckers’ opposition. That led REA to decided to continue the service with their own trucks.

Carrying mail on scheduled passenger trains the Southern wanted to discontinue resulted in some of the first COFC services on the railroad. When the Post Office recognized containers delivered to their facilities, rather than paying mail handlers at railroad stations, as a major cost savings, they adopted the concept to the point Southern started planning trains just for “piggyback” (i.e. “Rail-Highway) services. The advent of containerized mail gave the Southern a way to keep and grow that revenue at the same time it was cutting off passenger trains!

Ike

On Apr 1, 2020, at 6:06 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Because the Southern wanted to take trains17 and 18 off, and attempted to increase patronage, over several years, there are a number of items in the SRHA archives on the topic. Most are scanned but now the scans need to be given searchable file names and an article for TIES put together.

I’ve attached one example..(from SRHA Archives Box 531D, File 26)

Ike

<1948-7-8 Trs 17 & 18.jpeg>

Re: Info on last runs of Tr 17 & 18 found

George Eichelberger
 

Because the Southern wanted to take trains17 and 18 off, and attempted to increase patronage, over several years, there are a number of items in the SRHA archives on the topic. Most are scanned but now the scans need to be given searchable file names and an article for TIES put together.

I’ve attached one example..(from SRHA Archives Box 531D, File 26)

Ike





On Apr 1, 2020, at 4:15 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

Recent discussions with Jerry Ledford, Bill Schafer and Frank Scheer (USPS expert) regarding last run of trains 17 and 18 on the Murphy culminated in what I found yesterday while digging thru online newspapers from 1947-48.  In the Waynesville Mountaineer (see attachment), a weekly pub, was an article dated 7-13-48 stating that the last run “from Asheville” would be 7-14 and “last train from Murphy” train would be 7-15.  Mail and express would then be handled in a “special car” sent out on the morning freight train.  This was temporary until the USPS could establish a highway postal service that replaced rail.  From photos taken by Wayne Brumbaugh (available from Bob’s Photo), we have proof that, on at least 1 occasion following the 1948 cessation of passenger trains, a double-headed 2-8-0 set with a single RPO/baggage and caboose (no freight train) was run.  We have no documentation associated with the photo but various pieces of the “Murphy Puzzle” indicate this is what is happening in the 2 photos.  Further, Frank Scheer states that, while the trains ended, the mail contract would continue until a suitable highway alternative was reached, which explains why the RPO/baggage was in use after 7-15-48.  The newspaper article also indicates that rail service would continue for mail/express.  Frank stated that the rest of the RPO/baggage was likely empty … only the mail/express section would have been manned.
 
I’ve read somewhere that there were 2 passenger trains operating on the line at the same time (17 and 18) and that they met (typically) around Addie or Willitts, maybe Bryson if the WB was running late.  There’s a photo of the WB #17 in the Willitts siding waiting on another train, “assumed” to be an EB freight, in Mike George’s book.  Timetable dated 5-30-48 shows #17 arriving in Asheville at 10:30 AM and Tr 18 leaving AVL at the same time which is physically impossible if the same equipment was used.  17 started at Murphy after 6:15 AM and 18 arrived Murphy 3:30.  The top of the column says “daily”, meaning these trains ran 7 days a week, yet the newspaper article indicates this may have been the same train and simply was “a turn” operating tri-weekly (6 days a week, not on Sunday) because it took 2 days per round trip.
 
Does anyone have info to confirm/expand or refute any of this?
 
Can someone scan the entire T/T #7 dated 5-30-48 and post here or send to me as a pdf?  I need to study the footnotes associated with Tr’s 17/18 on the schedule but I only have those 2 pages.
 
Jim King
 

-- 
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com<Waynesville Mountaineer 7-13-48 SOU ends psgr service on Murphy 7-15-48 page 1.pdf>

Re: Info on last runs of Tr 17 & 18 found

O Fenton Wells
 

Good info Jim, thanks for sharing 
Fenton 


On Apr 1, 2020, at 4:15 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:



Recent discussions with Jerry Ledford, Bill Schafer and Frank Scheer (USPS expert) regarding last run of trains 17 and 18 on the Murphy culminated in what I found yesterday while digging thru online newspapers from 1947-48.  In the Waynesville Mountaineer (see attachment), a weekly pub, was an article dated 7-13-48 stating that the last run “from Asheville” would be 7-14 and “last train from Murphy” train would be 7-15.  Mail and express would then be handled in a “special car” sent out on the morning freight train.  This was temporary until the USPS could establish a highway postal service that replaced rail.  From photos taken by Wayne Brumbaugh (available from Bob’s Photo), we have proof that, on at least 1 occasion following the 1948 cessation of passenger trains, a double-headed 2-8-0 set with a single RPO/baggage and caboose (no freight train) was run.  We have no documentation associated with the photo but various pieces of the “Murphy Puzzle” indicate this is what is happening in the 2 photos.  Further, Frank Scheer states that, while the trains ended, the mail contract would continue until a suitable highway alternative was reached, which explains why the RPO/baggage was in use after 7-15-48.  The newspaper article also indicates that rail service would continue for mail/express.  Frank stated that the rest of the RPO/baggage was likely empty … only the mail/express section would have been manned.

 

I’ve read somewhere that there were 2 passenger trains operating on the line at the same time (17 and 18) and that they met (typically) around Addie or Willitts, maybe Bryson if the WB was running late.  There’s a photo of the WB #17 in the Willitts siding waiting on another train, “assumed” to be an EB freight, in Mike George’s book.  Timetable dated 5-30-48 shows #17 arriving in Asheville at 10:30 AM and Tr 18 leaving AVL at the same time which is physically impossible if the same equipment was used.  17 started at Murphy after 6:15 AM and 18 arrived Murphy 3:30.  The top of the column says “daily”, meaning these trains ran 7 days a week, yet the newspaper article indicates this may have been the same train and simply was “a turn” operating tri-weekly (6 days a week, not on Sunday) because it took 2 days per round trip.

 

Does anyone have info to confirm/expand or refute any of this?

 

Can someone scan the entire T/T #7 dated 5-30-48 and post here or send to me as a pdf?  I need to study the footnotes associated with Tr’s 17/18 on the schedule but I only have those 2 pages.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


--
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com
<Waynesville Mountaineer 7-13-48 SOU ends psgr service on Murphy 7-15-48 page 1.pdf>

Re: Info on last runs of Tr 17 & 18 found

Matt Bumgarner
 

I'll scan it for you later tonight or tomorrow morning.

Matt

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 4:15 PM Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

Recent discussions with Jerry Ledford, Bill Schafer and Frank Scheer (USPS expert) regarding last run of trains 17 and 18 on the Murphy culminated in what I found yesterday while digging thru online newspapers from 1947-48.  In the Waynesville Mountaineer (see attachment), a weekly pub, was an article dated 7-13-48 stating that the last run “from Asheville” would be 7-14 and “last train from Murphy” train would be 7-15.  Mail and express would then be handled in a “special car” sent out on the morning freight train.  This was temporary until the USPS could establish a highway postal service that replaced rail.  From photos taken by Wayne Brumbaugh (available from Bob’s Photo), we have proof that, on at least 1 occasion following the 1948 cessation of passenger trains, a double-headed 2-8-0 set with a single RPO/baggage and caboose (no freight train) was run.  We have no documentation associated with the photo but various pieces of the “Murphy Puzzle” indicate this is what is happening in the 2 photos.  Further, Frank Scheer states that, while the trains ended, the mail contract would continue until a suitable highway alternative was reached, which explains why the RPO/baggage was in use after 7-15-48.  The newspaper article also indicates that rail service would continue for mail/express.  Frank stated that the rest of the RPO/baggage was likely empty … only the mail/express section would have been manned.

 

I’ve read somewhere that there were 2 passenger trains operating on the line at the same time (17 and 18) and that they met (typically) around Addie or Willitts, maybe Bryson if the WB was running late.  There’s a photo of the WB #17 in the Willitts siding waiting on another train, “assumed” to be an EB freight, in Mike George’s book.  Timetable dated 5-30-48 shows #17 arriving in Asheville at 10:30 AM and Tr 18 leaving AVL at the same time which is physically impossible if the same equipment was used.  17 started at Murphy after 6:15 AM and 18 arrived Murphy 3:30.  The top of the column says “daily”, meaning these trains ran 7 days a week, yet the newspaper article indicates this may have been the same train and simply was “a turn” operating tri-weekly (6 days a week, not on Sunday) because it took 2 days per round trip.

 

Does anyone have info to confirm/expand or refute any of this?

 

Can someone scan the entire T/T #7 dated 5-30-48 and post here or send to me as a pdf?  I need to study the footnotes associated with Tr’s 17/18 on the schedule but I only have those 2 pages.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


--
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com

Info on last runs of Tr 17 & 18 found

Jim King
 

Recent discussions with Jerry Ledford, Bill Schafer and Frank Scheer (USPS expert) regarding last run of trains 17 and 18 on the Murphy culminated in what I found yesterday while digging thru online newspapers from 1947-48.  In the Waynesville Mountaineer (see attachment), a weekly pub, was an article dated 7-13-48 stating that the last run “from Asheville” would be 7-14 and “last train from Murphy” train would be 7-15.  Mail and express would then be handled in a “special car” sent out on the morning freight train.  This was temporary until the USPS could establish a highway postal service that replaced rail.  From photos taken by Wayne Brumbaugh (available from Bob’s Photo), we have proof that, on at least 1 occasion following the 1948 cessation of passenger trains, a double-headed 2-8-0 set with a single RPO/baggage and caboose (no freight train) was run.  We have no documentation associated with the photo but various pieces of the “Murphy Puzzle” indicate this is what is happening in the 2 photos.  Further, Frank Scheer states that, while the trains ended, the mail contract would continue until a suitable highway alternative was reached, which explains why the RPO/baggage was in use after 7-15-48.  The newspaper article also indicates that rail service would continue for mail/express.  Frank stated that the rest of the RPO/baggage was likely empty … only the mail/express section would have been manned.

 

I’ve read somewhere that there were 2 passenger trains operating on the line at the same time (17 and 18) and that they met (typically) around Addie or Willitts, maybe Bryson if the WB was running late.  There’s a photo of the WB #17 in the Willitts siding waiting on another train, “assumed” to be an EB freight, in Mike George’s book.  Timetable dated 5-30-48 shows #17 arriving in Asheville at 10:30 AM and Tr 18 leaving AVL at the same time which is physically impossible if the same equipment was used.  17 started at Murphy after 6:15 AM and 18 arrived Murphy 3:30.  The top of the column says “daily”, meaning these trains ran 7 days a week, yet the newspaper article indicates this may have been the same train and simply was “a turn” operating tri-weekly (6 days a week, not on Sunday) because it took 2 days per round trip.

 

Does anyone have info to confirm/expand or refute any of this?

 

Can someone scan the entire T/T #7 dated 5-30-48 and post here or send to me as a pdf?  I need to study the footnotes associated with Tr’s 17/18 on the schedule but I only have those 2 pages.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


--
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: SRHA Among Ourselves

Bill Schafer
 

Um, the phrase is “Keep the Green Light shining.”  Just sayin’. 


Another iPhone-generated message

On Mar 19, 2020, at 18:08, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

All:
One of the benefits of membership to the Southern Railway Historical Association is "Among Ourselves" which comes in each issue of TIES.  I'm attaching the current issue of AO so you can all see what we are about.  TIES is great and our current membership is touching 700. Keep the Green Light Burning.
CEA
<2020-1 Among Ourselves.pdf>

moderated SRHA Among Ourselves

Carl Ardrey
 

All:
One of the benefits of membership to the Southern Railway Historical Association is "Among Ourselves" which comes in each issue of TIES.  I'm attaching the current issue of AO so you can all see what we are about.  TIES is great and our current membership is touching 700. Keep the Green Light Burning.
CEA

moderated Re: Vertagreen tank cars

Rodney Shu
 

Hope you and your family are doing well.
Guess the Leeds meeting has been cancelled.  I found two IC drink glasses that I would like for you to have when we get together.

Rodney


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 9:18 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Vertagreen tank cars
 
Thanks, gents, for the plethora of information on the Vertagreen movements.  From your responses I've learned the shipments originated in Rockland, Florida and were routed Waycross-Jesup-Birmingham-Sheffield-Vertagreen, AL.

For forensic purposes, I've attached a copy of the morning consist copied at BT on June 26 1965 showing the tank cars coming in on the rear of #7.  I'm sure you'll recognize the other Southern consists, along with #33, SAL's Silver Comet.

I switched these cars on the rear of #7 & 8 while working the towers at Birmingham and Atlanta terminals. It was really strange seeing them tacked on to the rear of the heavyweight Pullman out of Atlanta. But this was the Brosnan era when passenger trains had become primarily mail, express, and in this case, expedited freight carriers.

Regards,
Marv

moderated Re: Charleston Union Station

Marv Clemons
 

Would a similar file possibly exist on Birmingham Terminal Station?  I know there are scattered documents in the President's and engineering files, but it would be wonderful if a single file had been kept.

Marv Clemons

moderated Re: Charleston Union Station

George Eichelberger
 

I forget this was in the SRHA digital files!

Ike



On Mar 15, 2020, at 4:30 PM, SouRwyFan via Groups.Io <blackaerocoupe@...> wrote:

Wow, interesting reading!
It opens lots of questions in my mind.
What cars were used as the coach station, each time?
Did they go back into service afterwards?
How long did the new Southern station last? 
Is it still standing or did it past into history like the Union station?
Kind of peaks your interest on the subject quickly.

Thanks for sharing Ike

moderated Re: Charleston Union Station

George Eichelberger
 

I expect the coaches were 1400 series cars the Southern never planned to rebuild. The answer may be in the “passenger” equipment spreadsheet populated with info from the ICC records. A passenger car, ICC account 54, would have been changed to account 16 “Station and Office Buildings” about the time they were placed at Line St.

The drawing of the “depot” in the file you downloaded was from “Ripleys Believe it or Not”. The fluting on the drawing was never on any Southern hwt coach.

As you may have seen, for the locals rebuilding a Union Station may have been more about getting tracks off of the peninsula than building a new depot. The Southern, with only one passenger train at the time, did not care to spend the money and the Coast Line wanted to use only their N. Charleston station to avoid the backup move to the Union Station site.

Ike


On Mar 15, 2020, at 4:30 PM, SouRwyFan via Groups.Io <blackaerocoupe@...> wrote:

Wow, interesting reading!
It opens lots of questions in my mind.
What cars were used as the coach station, each time?
Did they go back into service afterwards?
How long did the new Southern station last? 
Is it still standing or did it past into history like the Union station?
Kind of peaks your interest on the subject quickly.

Thanks for sharing Ike

moderated Re: Charleston Union Station

SouRwyFan
 

Wow, interesting reading!
It opens lots of questions in my mind.
What cars were used as the coach station, each time?
Did they go back into service afterwards?
How long did the new Southern station last? 
Is it still standing or did it past into history like the Union station?
Kind of peaks your interest on the subject quickly.

Thanks for sharing Ike

moderated Re: Passenger Car Lettering

Evan Miller
 

Thanks George, pretty funny seeing how Southern picked out the new scheme! I guess it would have been a common sight to see heavyweight trains with both the old Roman lettering and new block lettering in the consist.

-Evan Miller

On Saturday, March 14, 2020, 02:52:49 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


The first use of the 7" block style passenger car lettering was on the “Southerner” and “Tennessean” trains of 1941. The SRHA archives contain a letter from Pullman-Standard asking how the railroad wanted its new lightweight cars to be lettered. At first, the Southern had no idea. As EMC had already created 7" “SOUTHERN” lettering for the E-6s, a copy of that drawing was sent to P-S to be used.

Most “stencil” (lettering placement) drawings and drawings for individual full size letters and numerals; Roman, Official car and block are in the SRHA archives

Ike

moderated Re: Passenger Car Lettering

George Eichelberger
 

The first use of the 7" block style passenger car lettering was on the “Southerner” and “Tennessean” trains of 1941. The SRHA archives contain a letter from Pullman-Standard asking how the railroad wanted its new lightweight cars to be lettered. At first, the Southern had no idea. As EMC had already created 7" “SOUTHERN” lettering for the E-6s, a copy of that drawing was sent to P-S to be used.

Most “stencil” (lettering placement) drawings and drawings for individual full size letters and numerals; Roman, Official car and block are in the SRHA archives

Ike

moderated Passenger Car Lettering

Evan Miller
 

Hello all. When did Southern begin to use this simplified lettering on passenger cars?
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/passenger/575.jpg

moderated Charleston Union Station

George Eichelberger
 

There have been multiple conversations on the SouthernRailway.io group that describe the extent of the material in the SRHA archives. Although it will never be possible to make even a small portion of the archives available on-line, as people may be spending more time at home than usual we have uploaded an entire file on Charleston Union Station to Google Drive. Anyone interested in the subject can do their own “primary research” on what is probably an unknown aspect of Southern Railway history.

The following link to Google Drive contains 183 individual scans of letters and newspaper clippings beginning with the fire that destroyed Charleston Union station January 10, 1947 continuing to 1954. Maps and photos of Charleston are located in other files.


Please note that this is probably a one-time upload of an entire file. We simply do not have the volunteer manpower to repeat it. For anyone interested in this level of research, consider joining or donating to the SRHA archives.

Also, please provide your comments….

Ike

moderated Re: Archives Work Session March

Doug Alexander
 

I'd say that's the right call.  Heck, TVRM is itself shut down, I guess as a result of the Mayor's proclamation.


Doug Alexander

Model Trains Department
HobbyTownUSA
840 Barrett Parkway NW 
Kennesaw, GA 30144

Main   770-426-8800
Cell     404-272-2986



On Friday, March 13, 2020, 04:26:59 PM EDT, Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:


After discussions we have decided to cancel the Archives Work Session scheduled for next week (20-21 March).

This is in an  "abundance of caution" regarding COVID-19. Although we're not a large group, almost everyone who attends falls into the elevated or high risk category. Losing any one of our few people would be a heavy blow. Travel, restaurants, motels, etc, just provide more exposure. A risk we don't need to run.

The mayor of Chattanooga declared a state of emergency this morning, in order to close libraries, senior centers and youth centers, and to suspend event permits. There are no confirmed cases in Chattanooga yet. But the number of cases in Tennessee doubled yesterday from 9 to 18. Fourteen of these are in the Nashville area. Georgia has 42 confirmed cases, all in the northwest region of the state. Nobody, of course, has a clue as to the real numbers.

Concern is that we may be entering a period where cases may spike. Some talk about the next 7-10 days. Our work can wait.. Hopefully, we might pick up again next month.

Jim Thurston
SRHA





--
Doug Alexander
Atlanta

moderated Re: Archives Work Session March

wayland moore
 

Jim,

Take care of yourself.

Take care,

WLM

Found the "other" Southern Railway FaceBook page and lost a few hours looking at it.  Some interesting tales and photos.

I got a call a couple days later for a mainline trip as a flagman, and I had to report at the conductor's room. The call office had a sliding window into the room on one side, and the operator had one on the other side where we picked up our orders and waybills.
www.facebook.com



From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Jim Thurston <jthurston@...>
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 6:26 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: [Special] [SouthernRailway] Archives Work Session March
 
After discussions we have decided to cancel the Archives Work Session scheduled for next week (20-21 March).

This is in an  "abundance of caution" regarding COVID-19. Although we're not a large group, almost everyone who attends falls into the elevated or high risk category. Losing any one of our few people would be a heavy blow. Travel, restaurants, motels, etc, just provide more exposure. A risk we don't need to run.

The mayor of Chattanooga declared a state of emergency this morning, in order to close libraries, senior centers and youth centers, and to suspend event permits. There are no confirmed cases in Chattanooga yet. But the number of cases in Tennessee doubled yesterday from 9 to 18. Fourteen of these are in the Nashville area. Georgia has 42 confirmed cases, all in the northwest region of the state. Nobody, of course, has a clue as to the real numbers.

Concern is that we may be entering a period where cases may spike. Some talk about the next 7-10 days. Our work can wait.. Hopefully, we might pick up again next month.

Jim Thurston
SRHA