Date   

moderated Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

Jeffrey Thompson
 

George,

No Ps-3 engines in the line-up. Only Ps-4s.  

Jeff


On Mar 1, 2021, at 8:39 PM, George Courtney via groups.io <gsc3@...> wrote:

Jeff,

    In your Southern Passenger loco lineup, are any PS-3's?  I would guess next to your beautiful, 1380.  Sheer dumb curiousity.


moderated Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Ray, sorry to be slow in answering.

The finishing practices for steam engines changed in 1934 and I don't
think any of the special lettered Crescent Limited engines were
repainted in the new style before the train was discontinued. The old
scheme was provided with gold leaf lining and striping and the whole
engine varnished before it went into service; the later scheme used an
enamel-type finish with striping and lettering painted on using
imitation gold and the varnish coat was left off. T

The varnish is what made the difference; the older colour is
sometimes referred to as "Virginia Green" and reportedly appeared
slightly darker than the later colour. Dupont colours were used in
both styles and, as far as I can tell after the thick end of ninety
years, the basic shade of green didn't change significantly as the
paint name stayed the same.

Varnish of the period tended to be a deep amber colour which acted as
a sort of filter on the reflected light, resulting in a rather deeper
and richer finish then the bare enamel paint. In full size work you
can still achieve this look by using yacht varnish over the top coat,
but the very thin coat you would need for model work would lose much
of the effect. If you can get Scalecoat paints ( we haven't seen them
in these parts for many years and my last bottle has now passed on)
then a little dab of reddish brown added to their Southern green will
get you some of the way.

Aidrian

On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 4:38 PM Ray Bedard <tczephyr@hotmail.com> wrote:

I'm in the process of painting a Ps4 4-6-2 in the Crescent Ltd green. Does anyone have any suggestions on what brand and what green best represents the prototype?
Thanks,
RAY


moderated Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

George Courtney
 

Jeff,

    In your Southern Passenger loco lineup, are any PS-3's?  I would guess next to your beautiful, 1380.  Sheer dumb curiousity.


AAR Cars on Home Roads Letter

George Eichelberger
 

From the SRHA Archives:

AAR letters for the years during and after WWII are “rich” in freight car information. The Southern typically had many cars off line by design. Per Diem revenues were an important income.

Ike


moderated Re: Inman Yard in 1946 or 47

John Stewart
 

Hi again

 

Sorry, I was reading too fast.  I see reference to the date and to the fire.

 

Great picture, poor reader here…

 

John R Stewart

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2021 1:21 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Inman Yard in 1946 or 47

 

The SRHA archives includes many more photos than we can probably ever use in TIES or SRHA books. Here is an undated example that includes a variety of topics.

Although the photo is undated, we know that the Southern box car in the foreground of the photo is one of 1,000 post-war all steel design box cars built by Pullman-Standard and delivered in 1946 or 47 and the (most likely) NW-2 helps date the photo to 1947. No caption came with the image but it may be an Atlanta newspaper photo taken as part of the coverage of the fire in the distance.

The Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis and Omaha stock car coupled to the (very unusual!) dry ice car is a long way from home. The WFE car at Inman suggests the photo may have been taken during the Florida citrus, vegetable or peach shipping seasons when WFE equipment was moved east. The process reversed when apples were in season and FGE cars went west (there are mentions in the archives of solid trains of empty "reefers" moving back and forth as the seasons changed). The Inman icing platform is still in service and working, another "sign" it is peach or citrus season. With multiple Southern routes and railroads out of Atlanta, Inman was a diversion and re-icing point for northbound perishables.

The brakeman standing on the running board of the second car from the switch engine would be "interesting" during switch moves!

A great photo!

Ike



Forty-foot box cars are seen throughout the yard.


moderated Re: Inman Yard in 1946 or 47

John Stewart
 

Hi folks

 

That is a great picture for sure.  Thanks for sharing.  Looks like something is “afire” in the distance.  Guessing the picture is what, about 1950?

 

John R Stewart

Birmingham, AL

 

 

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2021 1:21 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Inman Yard in 1946 or 47

 

The SRHA archives includes many more photos than we can probably ever use in TIES or SRHA books. Here is an undated example that includes a variety of topics.

Although the photo is undated, we know that the Southern box car in the foreground of the photo is one of 1,000 post-war all steel design box cars built by Pullman-Standard and delivered in 1946 or 47 and the (most likely) NW-2 helps date the photo to 1947. No caption came with the image but it may be an Atlanta newspaper photo taken as part of the coverage of the fire in the distance.

The Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis and Omaha stock car coupled to the (very unusual!) dry ice car is a long way from home. The WFE car at Inman suggests the photo may have been taken during the Florida citrus, vegetable or peach shipping seasons when WFE equipment was moved east. The process reversed when apples were in season and FGE cars went west (there are mentions in the archives of solid trains of empty "reefers" moving back and forth as the seasons changed). The Inman icing platform is still in service and working, another "sign" it is peach or citrus season. With multiple Southern routes and railroads out of Atlanta, Inman was a diversion and re-icing point for northbound perishables.

The brakeman standing on the running board of the second car from the switch engine would be "interesting" during switch moves!

A great photo!

Ike



Forty-foot box cars are seen throughout the yard.


moderated Re: Inman Yard in 1946 or 47

sou1952 hayes
 

Is that the Control Tower that is on fire?

Chris



-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Feb 20, 2021 2:20 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Inman Yard in 1946 or 47

The SRHA archives includes many more photos than we can probably ever use in TIES or SRHA books. Here is an undated example that includes a variety of topics.

Although the photo is undated, we know that the Southern box car in the foreground of the photo is one of 1,000 post-war all steel design box cars built by Pullman-Standard and delivered in 1946 or 47 and the (most likely) NW-2 helps date the photo to 1947. No caption came with the image but it may be an Atlanta newspaper photo taken as part of the coverage of the fire in the distance.

The Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis and Omaha stock car coupled to the (very unusual!) dry ice car is a long way from home. The WFE car at Inman suggests the photo may have been taken during the Florida citrus, vegetable or peach shipping seasons when WFE equipment was moved east. The process reversed when apples were in season and FGE cars went west (there are mentions in the archives of solid trains of empty "reefers" moving back and forth as the seasons changed). The Inman icing platform is still in service and working, another "sign" it is peach or citrus season. With multiple Southern routes and railroads out of Atlanta, Inman was a diversion and re-icing point for northbound perishables.

The brakeman standing on the running board of the second car from the switch engine would be "interesting" during switch moves!

A great photo!

Ike



Forty-foot box cars are seen throughout the yard.


moderated Re: Inman Yard in 1946 or 47

C J Wyatt
 

Seems like I have seen other pictures from that era with dry ice cars at Inman. I wonder if the nearby packing plant used dry ice?

Jack Wyatt

On Saturday, February 20, 2021, 03:08:07 PM EST, Kyle Shannon via groups.io <trainsr6900@...> wrote:


The dry ice car is another neat oddity in this photo.




moderated Re: Inman Yard in 1946 or 47

Kyle Shannon
 

The dry ice car is another neat oddity in this photo.




On Saturday, February 20, 2021, 2:20 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

The SRHA archives includes many more photos than we can probably ever use in TIES or SRHA books. Here is an undated example that includes a variety of topics.

Although the photo is undated, we know that the Southern box car in the foreground of the photo is one of 1,000 post-war all steel design box cars built by Pullman-Standard and delivered in 1946 or 47 and the (most likely) NW-2 helps date the photo to 1947. No caption came with the image but it may be an Atlanta newspaper photo taken as part of the coverage of the fire in the distance.

The Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis and Omaha stock car coupled to the (very unusual!) dry ice car is a long way from home. The WFE car at Inman suggests the photo may have been taken during the Florida citrus, vegetable or peach shipping seasons when WFE equipment was moved east. The process reversed when apples were in season and FGE cars went west (there are mentions in the archives of solid trains of empty "reefers" moving back and forth as the seasons changed). The Inman icing platform is still in service and working, another "sign" it is peach or citrus season. With multiple Southern routes and railroads out of Atlanta, Inman was a diversion and re-icing point for northbound perishables.

The brakeman standing on the running board of the second car from the switch engine would be "interesting" during switch moves!

A great photo!

Ike



Forty-foot box cars are seen throughout the yard.


moderated Inman Yard in 1946 or 47

George Eichelberger
 

The SRHA archives includes many more photos than we can probably ever use in TIES or SRHA books. Here is an undated example that includes a variety of topics.

Although the photo is undated, we know that the Southern box car in the foreground of the photo is one of 1,000 post-war all steel design box cars built by Pullman-Standard and delivered in 1946 or 47 and the (most likely) NW-2 helps date the photo to 1947. No caption came with the image but it may be an Atlanta newspaper photo taken as part of the coverage of the fire in the distance.

The Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis and Omaha stock car coupled to the (very unusual!) dry ice car is a long way from home. The WFE car at Inman suggests the photo may have been taken during the Florida citrus, vegetable or peach shipping seasons when WFE equipment was moved east. The process reversed when apples were in season and FGE cars went west (there are mentions in the archives of solid trains of empty "reefers" moving back and forth as the seasons changed). The Inman icing platform is still in service and working, another "sign" it is peach or citrus season. With multiple Southern routes and railroads out of Atlanta, Inman was a diversion and re-icing point for northbound perishables.

The brakeman standing on the running board of the second car from the switch engine would be "interesting" during switch moves!

A great photo!

Ike



Forty-foot box cars are seen throughout the yard.


moderated Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

O Fenton Wells
 

Unfortunately that's not my beautiful collection of Southern locos

--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


moderated Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

jackvaradi
 

Fenton,
Beautiful collection of SRR Steam! Didn't see the F-1.
Thanks,
Jack

On Thursday, February 18, 2021, 02:18:56 PM EST, Jeffrey Thompson <jhtmd1@...> wrote:


First time posting.  Hello to all.

Agree with Southern Scalecoat I for brass and II for plastic. Experimenting with Trucolor greens now.

Most of these are Scalecoat and variation seems to be with different amounts of clear and dull coats.



Jeff Thompson


On Feb 18, 2021, at 12:48 PM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


My choice is Scale Coat Southern Green, I for brass and II for plastic
Fenton

On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 11:44 AM Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:

The best SR green, that never starts an argument here ;-)

Could ask over on the SR modeling group too.  ModelingTheSouthern@...


Curt Fortenberry



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


moderated Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

Michael Roderick
 

Jeff:

Nice set of Southern Green on display.

Mike Roderick 


On Feb 18, 2021, at 14:18, Jeffrey Thompson <jhtmd1@...> wrote:

 First time posting.  Hello to all.

Agree with Southern Scalecoat I for brass and II for plastic. Experimenting with Trucolor greens now.

Most of these are Scalecoat and variation seems to be with different amounts of clear and dull coats.

<image0.jpeg>


Jeff Thompson


On Feb 18, 2021, at 12:48 PM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


My choice is Scale Coat Southern Green, I for brass and II for plastic
Fenton

On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 11:44 AM Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:

The best SR green, that never starts an argument here ;-)

Could ask over on the SR modeling group too.  ModelingTheSouthern@...


Curt Fortenberry



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


moderated Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

Jeffrey Thompson
 

First time posting.  Hello to all.

Agree with Southern Scalecoat I for brass and II for plastic. Experimenting with Trucolor greens now.

Most of these are Scalecoat and variation seems to be with different amounts of clear and dull coats.



Jeff Thompson


On Feb 18, 2021, at 12:48 PM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


My choice is Scale Coat Southern Green, I for brass and II for plastic
Fenton

On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 11:44 AM Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:

The best SR green, that never starts an argument here ;-)

Could ask over on the SR modeling group too.  ModelingTheSouthern@...


Curt Fortenberry



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


moderated Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

O Fenton Wells
 

My choice is Scale Coat Southern Green, I for brass and II for plastic
Fenton

On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 11:44 AM Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:

The best SR green, that never starts an argument here ;-)

Could ask over on the SR modeling group too.  ModelingTheSouthern@...


Curt Fortenberry



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


moderated Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

Curt Fortenberry
 


The best SR green, that never starts an argument here ;-)

Could ask over on the SR modeling group too.  ModelingTheSouthern@...


Curt Fortenberry


moderated Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

Ray Bedard <tczephyr@...>
 

I'm in the process of painting a Ps4 4-6-2 in the Crescent Ltd green. Does anyone have any suggestions on what brand and what green best represents the prototype?
Thanks,
RAY


locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

George Eichelberger
 

Jason is correct. The Birmingham map is in the archives along with other files about the reconstruction of the trackage through downtown, the trackwork associated with Terminal Station, trackage rights different railroads used to get to the depot, etc.

While we would like to do a systematic Box 1…Box 2…etc. scan of every blueprint and map we have, other projects take priority. For example, when a model manufacturer asks for drawings, we let that request “jump the line” over almost anything except scanning items needed for TIES articles. (We believe publishing archives materials in TIES is the best, and most convenient, method for readers to take advantage of our collections without actually going to Chattanooga.) (Another point here please….Responding to research requests from individuals is always difficult because it takes volunteer time away from the projects I mentioned.)

We would be happy to manage a paid archives staff member to do scanning and research if someone would like to find the funds to do that.

Ike



On Feb 12, 2021, at 9:31 PM, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

SRHA has a copy of the Birmingham drawing that John mentioned. I remember seeing it once many years ago in Kennesaw. I don’t remember if that was before or after the big scanner was acquired. 

Jason Greene 

On Feb 12, 2021, at 8:53 PM, Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:


John, Warren and others:

At the SRHA archives here in Chattannoga we have a high quality wide format scanner which can handle originals up to 42" wide

We are now also able to create clear mylar carrier sleeves to protect delicate originals

We would be happy to scan appropriate maps such as these at no charge, and to provide the scans for preservation or for sharing

Of course, we'd also love to have a copy for the archives, if you're willing

You're welcome to contact me off list to discuss possibilities

Jim Thurston


From: "Warren Stephens" <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 8:18:12 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Depot for St. Elmo, TN

John, I am not map poor when it comes to Chattanooga. I have a big horse-blanket size late 1890s vintage atlas David Steinberg gave me that has a very detailed track layout. It has street railway and belt trackage and trunk line trackage etc. I also have all the valuation maps for my areas of interest which is TAG and CofG. I have many other railroad and non railroad maps of the Chattanooga area. I would be interested in a copy of the map you reference but my dealings with the National Archives have always been unpleasant. I once flew up in person only to be told they could only print 10 of the 30 pages I wanted because they were snowed under meanwhile everyone was standing around doing absolutely nothing. Well they did take a few moments to discuss lunch plans but other than that they all stood there with their hands in their pockets. Our tax dollars at work. But then if it were easy it wouldn't be fun right?

Warren  
On Friday, February 12, 2021, 11:56:18 AM EST, John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:


HI folks, Warren and Ike

 

I worked for an engineering firm based in Chattanooga, Hensely-Schmidt, although I was in Atlanta and Nashville, with only temporary assignment in Chattanooga for bridge inspection work with a wonderful fellow named John Allen, as my boss.  He was former B&B Eng for Knoxville, having gone to work for Sou Ry out of NC State Civil Engineering program in 1952.  He later retired, went into construction business in Knoxville, sold out, went into consulting for a couple of years, then back to NS in Atlanta coordinating bridge consulting work for NS

 

Anyway, at one time, I was attending a meeting with the company folks and the Chattanooga Chamber staff about future riverfront development and downtown redevelopment.  This was in the late 1970’s

 

In this meeting a wonderful map was used, a blueprint style, which showed all the RR’s in town and labeled industries and spurs.  I believe it was produced as part of the national terminal conference coordinating program of the federal government.  All major terminals were required to develop these, to coordinate redundancies and overlap among the RR’s as there were many going into receivership in the Depression years.

 

I have the map of Birmingham, dated 1935.  Much of the program documents are in the National Archives.  

 

Anyway the program was shut down very quickly when it dawned on the government staffers that eliminating redundancies and overlap in cities would cost RR people their jobs – not the thing the government wanted to do in a Depression.

 

So, wondering, Warren, if you are familiar with that map?  I am attaching the title block from the Birmingham map as well as the list of RR’s, which I reckon would have been similar to Chattanooga with a couple of exceptions.  The National Archives told me that they didn’t have the Birmingham map in their files.  Bham ranked 55th among the nations terminals, with Chicago being #1.  Don’t know how Chattanooga would have been ranked.

 

I’m also attaching a pdf of images from Railway Age articles from a microfilm reader at Bham Public.  

 

Are you familiar with a map from this program for Chattanooga?

 

My  Birmingham copy is about 7’ x 3’ and hangs above the main yard in the railroad room.  Great resource.

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

<image001.jpg>

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 5:18 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Depot for St. Elmo, TN

 

Warren:

 

Not only is Chattanooga more “interesting” than Atlanta, there are many files, drawings and photos on the area in the SRHA archives. As far as the files are concerned there were at least eight (by my count) railroads there: Southern (ETV&G), CNO&TP, AGS, Chatt Belt, Chatt Traction, CofG, TAG and NC&StL Many had trackage rights, crossing or switching agreements (incl. the three lines we think of as “Southern).

 

I just recently found and scanned a complete file on the pre CNO&TP Chattanooga Traction as it was attempting to get rid of street car passenger services so the power company could sell it (1935). Another interesting file covers the time when the AGS (and M&C?) built their own line out to Wauhatchee “through” Lookout Mtn.

 

Beyond the facilities in Chattanooga, I have been finding more information on passenger trains there than I could imagine existed…starting about 1896. I keep trying to finish an article on the “Florida Sunbeam” but material keeps turning up.

 

I continue to go up to the archives, generally by myself, to get files to scan but I look forward to restarting archives work sessions some time mid yea.

 

Ike

 
 
 

On Feb 11, 2021, at 5:04 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

 

George, Remember Southern had traditionally used trackage rights on NC&StL to gain access to Stevenson Alabama and therefore Memphis (west) and to reach the AGS on the west side of Lookout Mountain (south). This new trackage was supposed to get all the way to Stevenson but for financial reasons, they only made it out as far as the AGS. He is referencing railroad south and not geographically south through St. Elmo. 

 

This new Southern method of egressing town to the west and south was good for Southern but it added yet another busy mainline down town for automobile traffic to contend with. Chattanooga began the interesting process of kicking the railroads out of down town not long after Southern opened this new route. Very strange episode. The city at first wanted the railroads to elevate all their trackage in town. If you ever saw a vintage aerial of Chattanooga, there were 40 foot boxcars parked everywhere. The railroads countered with how would they switch these customers. The railroads did their best to ignore the city till Chattanooga went to the state legislature and had a Chattanooga Rail Authority formed with the ability - through imminent domain - to kick the railroads out of town and at their own expense. There were proposals for a new art deco union station over close to the National Cemetery and this is what brought about the CofG and NC&St.L abandoning their original yards and the relocation of the NC from town to alongside Southern and then both were elevated over Main street. Chattanooga is a most interesting rail hub. Far more interesting to me than Atlanta.

 

Warren D. Stephens

 

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 04:35:14 PM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote: 

 
 
Warren:

 

I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)

 

Ike

 

 

On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

 

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

 

Warren D. Stephens

CofG and TAG fan



On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

 

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

 

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

 

Ike

 

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>

 

 




locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

Jason Greene
 

SRHA has a copy of the Birmingham drawing that John mentioned. I remember seeing it once many years ago in Kennesaw. I don’t remember if that was before or after the big scanner was acquired. 

Jason Greene 

On Feb 12, 2021, at 8:53 PM, Jim Thurston <jthurston@...> wrote:


John, Warren and others:

At the SRHA archives here in Chattannoga we have a high quality wide format scanner which can handle originals up to 42" wide

We are now also able to create clear mylar carrier sleeves to protect delicate originals

We would be happy to scan appropriate maps such as these at no charge, and to provide the scans for preservation or for sharing

Of course, we'd also love to have a copy for the archives, if you're willing

You're welcome to contact me off list to discuss possibilities

Jim Thurston
jthurston@...


From: "Warren Stephens" <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 8:18:12 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Depot for St. Elmo, TN

John, I am not map poor when it comes to Chattanooga. I have a big horse-blanket size late 1890s vintage atlas David Steinberg gave me that has a very detailed track layout. It has street railway and belt trackage and trunk line trackage etc. I also have all the valuation maps for my areas of interest which is TAG and CofG. I have many other railroad and non railroad maps of the Chattanooga area. I would be interested in a copy of the map you reference but my dealings with the National Archives have always been unpleasant. I once flew up in person only to be told they could only print 10 of the 30 pages I wanted because they were snowed under meanwhile everyone was standing around doing absolutely nothing. Well they did take a few moments to discuss lunch plans but other than that they all stood there with their hands in their pockets. Our tax dollars at work. But then if it were easy it wouldn't be fun right?

Warren  
On Friday, February 12, 2021, 11:56:18 AM EST, John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:


HI folks, Warren and Ike

 

I worked for an engineering firm based in Chattanooga, Hensely-Schmidt, although I was in Atlanta and Nashville, with only temporary assignment in Chattanooga for bridge inspection work with a wonderful fellow named John Allen, as my boss.  He was former B&B Eng for Knoxville, having gone to work for Sou Ry out of NC State Civil Engineering program in 1952.  He later retired, went into construction business in Knoxville, sold out, went into consulting for a couple of years, then back to NS in Atlanta coordinating bridge consulting work for NS

 

Anyway, at one time, I was attending a meeting with the company folks and the Chattanooga Chamber staff about future riverfront development and downtown redevelopment.  This was in the late 1970’s

 

In this meeting a wonderful map was used, a blueprint style, which showed all the RR’s in town and labeled industries and spurs.  I believe it was produced as part of the national terminal conference coordinating program of the federal government.  All major terminals were required to develop these, to coordinate redundancies and overlap among the RR’s as there were many going into receivership in the Depression years.

 

I have the map of Birmingham, dated 1935.  Much of the program documents are in the National Archives. 

 

Anyway the program was shut down very quickly when it dawned on the government staffers that eliminating redundancies and overlap in cities would cost RR people their jobs – not the thing the government wanted to do in a Depression.

 

So, wondering, Warren, if you are familiar with that map?  I am attaching the title block from the Birmingham map as well as the list of RR’s, which I reckon would have been similar to Chattanooga with a couple of exceptions.  The National Archives told me that they didn’t have the Birmingham map in their files.  Bham ranked 55th among the nations terminals, with Chicago being #1.  Don’t know how Chattanooga would have been ranked.

 

I’m also attaching a pdf of images from Railway Age articles from a microfilm reader at Bham Public. 

 

Are you familiar with a map from this program for Chattanooga?

 

My  Birmingham copy is about 7’ x 3’ and hangs above the main yard in the railroad room.  Great resource.

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

<image001.jpg>

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 5:18 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Depot for St. Elmo, TN

 

Warren:

 

Not only is Chattanooga more “interesting” than Atlanta, there are many files, drawings and photos on the area in the SRHA archives. As far as the files are concerned there were at least eight (by my count) railroads there: Southern (ETV&G), CNO&TP, AGS, Chatt Belt, Chatt Traction, CofG, TAG and NC&StL Many had trackage rights, crossing or switching agreements (incl. the three lines we think of as “Southern).

 

I just recently found and scanned a complete file on the pre CNO&TP Chattanooga Traction as it was attempting to get rid of street car passenger services so the power company could sell it (1935). Another interesting file covers the time when the AGS (and M&C?) built their own line out to Wauhatchee “through” Lookout Mtn.

 

Beyond the facilities in Chattanooga, I have been finding more information on passenger trains there than I could imagine existed…starting about 1896. I keep trying to finish an article on the “Florida Sunbeam” but material keeps turning up.

 

I continue to go up to the archives, generally by myself, to get files to scan but I look forward to restarting archives work sessions some time mid yea.

 

Ike

 

 

 

On Feb 11, 2021, at 5:04 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

 

George, Remember Southern had traditionally used trackage rights on NC&StL to gain access to Stevenson Alabama and therefore Memphis (west) and to reach the AGS on the west side of Lookout Mountain (south). This new trackage was supposed to get all the way to Stevenson but for financial reasons, they only made it out as far as the AGS. He is referencing railroad south and not geographically south through St. Elmo. 

 

This new Southern method of egressing town to the west and south was good for Southern but it added yet another busy mainline down town for automobile traffic to contend with. Chattanooga began the interesting process of kicking the railroads out of down town not long after Southern opened this new route. Very strange episode. The city at first wanted the railroads to elevate all their trackage in town. If you ever saw a vintage aerial of Chattanooga, there were 40 foot boxcars parked everywhere. The railroads countered with how would they switch these customers. The railroads did their best to ignore the city till Chattanooga went to the state legislature and had a Chattanooga Rail Authority formed with the ability - through imminent domain - to kick the railroads out of town and at their own expense. There were proposals for a new art deco union station over close to the National Cemetery and this is what brought about the CofG and NC&St.L abandoning their original yards and the relocation of the NC from town to alongside Southern and then both were elevated over Main street. Chattanooga is a most interesting rail hub. Far more interesting to me than Atlanta.

 

Warren D. Stephens

 

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 04:35:14 PM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

 

 

Warren:

 

I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)

 

Ike

 

 

On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

 

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

 

Warren D. Stephens

CofG and TAG fan



On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

 

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

 

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

 

Ike

 

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>

 

 



locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

Jim Thurston
 

John, Warren and others:

At the SRHA archives here in Chattannoga we have a high quality wide format scanner which can handle originals up to 42" wide

We are now also able to create clear mylar carrier sleeves to protect delicate originals

We would be happy to scan appropriate maps such as these at no charge, and to provide the scans for preservation or for sharing

Of course, we'd also love to have a copy for the archives, if you're willing

You're welcome to contact me off list to discuss possibilities

Jim Thurston
jthurston@...


From: "Warren Stephens" <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 8:18:12 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Depot for St. Elmo, TN

John, I am not map poor when it comes to Chattanooga. I have a big horse-blanket size late 1890s vintage atlas David Steinberg gave me that has a very detailed track layout. It has street railway and belt trackage and trunk line trackage etc. I also have all the valuation maps for my areas of interest which is TAG and CofG. I have many other railroad and non railroad maps of the Chattanooga area. I would be interested in a copy of the map you reference but my dealings with the National Archives have always been unpleasant. I once flew up in person only to be told they could only print 10 of the 30 pages I wanted because they were snowed under meanwhile everyone was standing around doing absolutely nothing. Well they did take a few moments to discuss lunch plans but other than that they all stood there with their hands in their pockets. Our tax dollars at work. But then if it were easy it wouldn't be fun right?

Warren  
On Friday, February 12, 2021, 11:56:18 AM EST, John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:


HI folks, Warren and Ike

 

I worked for an engineering firm based in Chattanooga, Hensely-Schmidt, although I was in Atlanta and Nashville, with only temporary assignment in Chattanooga for bridge inspection work with a wonderful fellow named John Allen, as my boss.  He was former B&B Eng for Knoxville, having gone to work for Sou Ry out of NC State Civil Engineering program in 1952.  He later retired, went into construction business in Knoxville, sold out, went into consulting for a couple of years, then back to NS in Atlanta coordinating bridge consulting work for NS

 

Anyway, at one time, I was attending a meeting with the company folks and the Chattanooga Chamber staff about future riverfront development and downtown redevelopment.  This was in the late 1970’s

 

In this meeting a wonderful map was used, a blueprint style, which showed all the RR’s in town and labeled industries and spurs.  I believe it was produced as part of the national terminal conference coordinating program of the federal government.  All major terminals were required to develop these, to coordinate redundancies and overlap among the RR’s as there were many going into receivership in the Depression years.

 

I have the map of Birmingham, dated 1935.  Much of the program documents are in the National Archives. 

 

Anyway the program was shut down very quickly when it dawned on the government staffers that eliminating redundancies and overlap in cities would cost RR people their jobs – not the thing the government wanted to do in a Depression.

 

So, wondering, Warren, if you are familiar with that map?  I am attaching the title block from the Birmingham map as well as the list of RR’s, which I reckon would have been similar to Chattanooga with a couple of exceptions.  The National Archives told me that they didn’t have the Birmingham map in their files.  Bham ranked 55th among the nations terminals, with Chicago being #1.  Don’t know how Chattanooga would have been ranked.

 

I’m also attaching a pdf of images from Railway Age articles from a microfilm reader at Bham Public. 

 

Are you familiar with a map from this program for Chattanooga?

 

My  Birmingham copy is about 7’ x 3’ and hangs above the main yard in the railroad room.  Great resource.

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 5:18 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Depot for St. Elmo, TN

 

Warren:

 

Not only is Chattanooga more “interesting” than Atlanta, there are many files, drawings and photos on the area in the SRHA archives. As far as the files are concerned there were at least eight (by my count) railroads there: Southern (ETV&G), CNO&TP, AGS, Chatt Belt, Chatt Traction, CofG, TAG and NC&StL Many had trackage rights, crossing or switching agreements (incl. the three lines we think of as “Southern).

 

I just recently found and scanned a complete file on the pre CNO&TP Chattanooga Traction as it was attempting to get rid of street car passenger services so the power company could sell it (1935). Another interesting file covers the time when the AGS (and M&C?) built their own line out to Wauhatchee “through” Lookout Mtn.

 

Beyond the facilities in Chattanooga, I have been finding more information on passenger trains there than I could imagine existed…starting about 1896. I keep trying to finish an article on the “Florida Sunbeam” but material keeps turning up.

 

I continue to go up to the archives, generally by myself, to get files to scan but I look forward to restarting archives work sessions some time mid yea.

 

Ike

 

 

 

On Feb 11, 2021, at 5:04 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

 

George, Remember Southern had traditionally used trackage rights on NC&StL to gain access to Stevenson Alabama and therefore Memphis (west) and to reach the AGS on the west side of Lookout Mountain (south). This new trackage was supposed to get all the way to Stevenson but for financial reasons, they only made it out as far as the AGS. He is referencing railroad south and not geographically south through St. Elmo. 

 

This new Southern method of egressing town to the west and south was good for Southern but it added yet another busy mainline down town for automobile traffic to contend with. Chattanooga began the interesting process of kicking the railroads out of down town not long after Southern opened this new route. Very strange episode. The city at first wanted the railroads to elevate all their trackage in town. If you ever saw a vintage aerial of Chattanooga, there were 40 foot boxcars parked everywhere. The railroads countered with how would they switch these customers. The railroads did their best to ignore the city till Chattanooga went to the state legislature and had a Chattanooga Rail Authority formed with the ability - through imminent domain - to kick the railroads out of town and at their own expense. There were proposals for a new art deco union station over close to the National Cemetery and this is what brought about the CofG and NC&St.L abandoning their original yards and the relocation of the NC from town to alongside Southern and then both were elevated over Main street. Chattanooga is a most interesting rail hub. Far more interesting to me than Atlanta.

 

Warren D. Stephens

 

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 04:35:14 PM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

 

 

Warren:

 

I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)

 

Ike

 

 

On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

 

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

 

Warren D. Stephens

CofG and TAG fan



On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

 

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

 

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

 

Ike

 

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>

 

 


1 - 20 of 1745