Date   

locked Re: Southern Railway 40 ft boxcars 505700-505848 (40-ft with 16' plug doors )

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Aren't these the same cars Mask Island offered a kit for?  I have one partly built.  Forget what roadblock I hit....


Scott Chatfield



O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Thanks Ike, I appreciate your info.  We may do this car for the 2019 B'NB for the Carolina's RPM next October.  We will have the plug doors cast specially for this car in resin..


On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 10:49 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Fenton:

All of the Southern and CofG "brick" cars need a detailed article in TIES as they have quite a history.

A "short" answer to your question.....working backwards....

The Southern 505700-505848 double plug door 40' box cars were renumbered from CofG 47 and 4800 series cars in May and June, 1976 (most CG cars were renumbered and re-stenciled Southern at that same time. I've attached a nice Oscar Kimsey photo of Sou 505703 taken at Nixon, GA in 1973 and Sou 32161.)

When they were rebuilt from standard 40' box cars to CofG brick cars is a bit more complicated. The first version of Southern/CofG cars for brick service were done "on the cheep". They had double sliding doors and cushion underframes but the underframes were not modified to deal with the width of the double doors. Typically door side posts connect to the side sill at a crossmember to carry the load from the door sills to the underframe. Because the rebuilt door sills were at a different location, their load was transferred to only side sill then the side sill carried the load to a crossmember. The problem was the vertical load at both the bottom of the door sill and at the crossmembers caused cracks in the side sills. Note the reinforcements on the side sill below the door sill on Sou 32151 to try to correct the problem. (I'm sure a mechanical engineer could provide a better explanation.)

As some portion (?) of the sliding door cars were rebuilt to plug door cars, their underframes were modified to correct that problem. The plug doors helped carry the load across the door opening to the door sills.

The idea was that the CG brick cars were to be rebuilt from CG box cars to keep the accounts straight bt I don't believe that was always the case. During the rebuild programs of the 1960s, if a CofG car was not available, a Southern car would be swapped in the accounts and a Central car used for a Southern rebuild. I expect we can dig into the SCP files in the archives to show all/most of the brick car renumberings but that take someone to help with the research.

Ike



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


locked Re: Southern Railway 40 ft boxcars 505700-505848 (40-ft with 16' plug doors )

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Ike, I appreciate your info.  We may do this car for the 2019 B'NB for the Carolina's RPM next October.  We will have the plug doors cast specially for this car in resin..


On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 10:49 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Fenton:

All of the Southern and CofG "brick" cars need a detailed article in TIES as they have quite a history.

A "short" answer to your question.....working backwards....

The Southern 505700-505848 double plug door 40' box cars were renumbered from CofG 47 and 4800 series cars in May and June, 1976 (most CG cars were renumbered and re-stenciled Southern at that same time. I've attached a nice Oscar Kimsey photo of Sou 505703 taken at Nixon, GA in 1973 and Sou 32161.)

When they were rebuilt from standard 40' box cars to CofG brick cars is a bit more complicated. The first version of Southern/CofG cars for brick service were done "on the cheep". They had double sliding doors and cushion underframes but the underframes were not modified to deal with the width of the double doors. Typically door side posts connect to the side sill at a crossmember to carry the load from the door sills to the underframe. Because the rebuilt door sills were at a different location, their load was transferred to only side sill then the side sill carried the load to a crossmember. The problem was the vertical load at both the bottom of the door sill and at the crossmembers caused cracks in the side sills. Note the reinforcements on the side sill below the door sill on Sou 32151 to try to correct the problem. (I'm sure a mechanical engineer could provide a better explanation.)

As some portion (?) of the sliding door cars were rebuilt to plug door cars, their underframes were modified to correct that problem. The plug doors helped carry the load across the door opening to the door sills.

The idea was that the CG brick cars were to be rebuilt from CG box cars to keep the accounts straight bt I don't believe that was always the case. During the rebuild programs of the 1960s, if a CofG car was not available, a Southern car would be swapped in the accounts and a Central car used for a Southern rebuild. I expect we can dig into the SCP files in the archives to show all/most of the brick car renumberings but that take someone to help with the research.

Ike



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


locked Meeting notes between the Washington Southern and the Southern 9/17/1904

George Eichelberger
 

I realize thirty pages of meeting notes from 1904 will not interest everyone but to see for yourself use the link to Google Drive to view or download the notes of a meeting at Southern headquarters in Washington, DC between the Southern and Washington Southern. (There are literally thousands of similar files in the SRHA archives.)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tP9b7J9ssHArQCeduUE3_8YwAZjDgIgw?usp=sharing

In early 1904, the Washington Southern approached the Southern about building a fly-over junction at Cameron Run. The meeting was a planning session for the future of the two lines into Alexandria and the land purchases, swaps, etc. necessary to construct the new "Arlington  (e.g. Potomac) Yard".

This work with the construction of the new Long Bridge over the river leads to the development of the trackage and yards leading into Washington Union Station. All subjects included in the Southern Railway Presidents' files collection in the SRHA archives at TVRM.

If anyone has any information on any of those subjects, or would like to assist with research for several future TIES articles, please contact us at archives@....

Ike


locked Re: Southern Railway 40 ft boxcars 505700-505848 (40-ft with 16' plug doors )

George Eichelberger
 
Edited

Fenton:

All of the Southern and CofG "brick" cars need a detailed article in TIES as they have quite a history.

A "short" answer to your question.....working backwards....

The Southern 505700-505848 double plug door 40' box cars were renumbered from CofG 47 and 4800 series cars in May and June, 1976 (most CG cars were renumbered and re-stenciled Southern at that same time. I've attached a nice Oscar Kimsey photo of Sou 505703 taken at Nixon, GA in 1973 and Sou 32161.)

When they were rebuilt from standard 40' box cars to CofG brick cars is a bit more complicated. The first version of Southern/CofG cars for brick service were done "on the cheep". They had double sliding doors and cushion underframes but the underframes were not modified to deal with the width of the double doors. Typically door side posts connect to the side sill at a crossmember to carry the load from the door sills to the underframe. Because the rebuilt door sills were at a different location, their load was transferred to only side sill then the side sill carried the load to a crossmember. The problem was the vertical load at both the bottom of the door sill and at the crossmembers caused cracks in the side sills. Note the reinforcements on the side sill below the door sill on Sou 32151 to try to correct the problem. (I'm sure a mechanical engineer could provide a better explanation.)

As some portion (?) of the sliding door cars were rebuilt to plug door cars, their underframes were modified to correct that problem. The plug doors helped carry the load across the door opening to the door sills.

The idea was that the CG brick cars were to be rebuilt from CG box cars to keep the accounts straight bt I don't believe that was always the case. During the rebuild programs of the 1960s, if a CofG car was not available, a Southern car would be swapped in the accounts and a Central car used for a Southern rebuild. I expect we can dig into the SCP files in the archives to show all/most of the brick car renumberings but that take someone to help with the research.

Ike


locked Re: Walthers F7's

Ed Mims
 

My thought about Walthers is that they don’t worry about the small stuff. The average modeler does not either, so Walthers provides models that sell without caring if it is prototypically correct. This is OK with them as long as they profit from it. It is all about business and that is why they have been successful for 70+ years.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of RamblingReck
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 9:23 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Walthers F7's

 

It just seems like Walthers had to go out of their way to model the steam generators.  None of the other roads (correct or not) had them.

 

John Ryan


--
John Ryan


locked Re: Walthers F7's

RamblingReck
 

It just seems like Walthers had to go out of their way to model the steam generators.  None of the other roads (correct or not) had them.
 
John Ryan

--
John Ryan


locked Southern Railway 40 ft boxcars 505700-505848 (40-ft with 16' plug doors )

O Fenton Wells
 

Does anyone have information on these boxcars?  They were rebuilt 40 boxcars with 16' door openings and double plug doors.  Some had loaders insd=talled and were called container cars.  They are in the 1982 and 1979 ORER.
I would love to have a car diagram and information on when they were rebuilt and what cars they were rebuilt from.
Help?
Fenton Wells


locked Re: Walthers F7's

Don Yelverton
 

John,
Good to hear from you. I looked at these also. These models are not the Proto series but the Mainline series and maybe comparable the older Proto 1000 series that included the Southern Phase II F3s and the DLs. From what I've read, these F7s do have the Proto chassis so they are probably a step above. Most of the Mainline series models do not have the correct detailing that you would expect to see with the Proto series. I felt they were over priced as well. Most of the Proto units I've looked at appear to be based on a certain time frame resulting in details that Walthers deemed appropriate for whatever reason, be it photos or hear-say. Both Ike and Rick are correct in their statements as well. 

Don Yelverton 

On ‎Sunday‎, ‎October‎ ‎28‎, ‎2018‎ ‎10‎:‎50‎:‎07‎ ‎AM‎ ‎EDT, RamblingReck <ramblingreck@...> wrote:


What's is really interesting is that none of the other Walthers F7's that I saw had steam generators.  If they had just used dynamic brakes there would have been quite a few suitable matches.  I presume that the SRHA wasn't involved.
--
John Ryan


locked Re: Walthers F7's

George Eichelberger
 

John:

Working with Walthers, or other manufacturers is something we always try to do but personnel changes can break our contacts. We did receive a request from Walthers about the F-7s quite some time ago but I do not know if our drawings made it into their production plans.

I think it is correct to say SRHA has provided data for every accurate SR model since before the Model Power E units were produced. We never charge manufacturers for what we provide because we want to contribute to having accurate Southern prototypes available to modelers. All of the Jim King/Gary Wright kits made extensive use of SRHA drawings; more than 50 for the SR bay window cab, I’ve lost track of how many Exact Rail used for their fabulous “Big Johns”. Their new cast steel bulkhead flats are likely using the bulkhead drawings we sent to them with a reminder that they would go perfectly with the flats they already sold.

Sometimes our input effects what they produce. When we were asked to review the artwork for N scale FTs (from SRHA drawings), we reminded the manufacturer that they needed to include road numbers on the nose of the units. (They were on the FTs as delivered, never on passenger units and eliminated when D.W. Brosnan thought they cost too much to maintain.) It turned out Santa Fe units also had them so they were added to the artwork for both roads.

We always respond to Hubert Mask, of Mask Island decals as quickly as possible because he makes an effort to  make items available ASAP. I owe him a stencil drawing for the sliding door brick cars today. As soon as Arrowhead announced their Southern (ex NS) Bethehem 3-bay hoppers and undec kits we sent the drawings for the NS cars to Hubert, he had the decals available within a week! 

When the manufacturers invest their time, money and effort in accurate models, it is up to us modelers to support their work by buying those items. If anyone has not seen the Arrowhead hopper, check out their website (then order a few!) We are working with Blain Hadfield of Arrowhead on a CofG/Southern prototype that will fill a niche for anyone modeling those roads plus several others.

When we work with someone on future products, we can never really be certain the model will be produced. They have to allocate their resources to items they think will sell. The larger the manufacturer, like Walthers or Athern, the more “competition” we have for them to produce Southeastern prototype modelers. We can overcome that only by buy what they offer….

Ike


On Oct 28, 2018, at 10:25 AM, RamblingReck <ramblingreck@...> wrote:

What's is really interesting is that none of the other Walthers F7's that I saw had steam generators.  If they had just used dynamic brakes there would have been quite a few suitable matches.  I presume that the SRHA wasn't involved.
--
John Ryan


locked Re: Walthers F7's

rwbrv4
 

Well the problem is that the SRHA has told manufacturers what we have and how we can help, and few take advantage of it .  There's been personal visits to most of the majors literally showing drawings etc.  Sadly some just persist in just throwing a paint job on a shell and expect us to buy it.
Rick Bell




On Sunday, October 28, 2018 RamblingReck <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> wrote:

What's is really interesting is that none of the other Walthers F7's that I saw had steam generators.  If they had just used dynamic brakes there would have been quite a few suitable matches.  I presume that the SRHA wasn't involved.
--
John Ryan


locked Re: Walthers F7's

RamblingReck
 

What's is really interesting is that none of the other Walthers F7's that I saw had steam generators.  If they had just used dynamic brakes there would have been quite a few suitable matches.  I presume that the SRHA wasn't involved.
--
John Ryan


locked Re: Walthers F7's

Chris Smith <smittydieseldoc@...>
 

Remember that most people in China have never seen an American locomotive. Also I have seen manufacturers use the same body shell for different paint schemes,not really researching what is correct for that road.


On Friday, October 26, 2018, RamblingReck <ramblingreck@...> wrote:
 I have been looking at purchasing the Walthers F7 models.  The numbers offered, though, do not seem to match the configuration very well.  The models have dynamic brakes and steam generators.  My research shows that A-unit 6717 never had a steam generator and A-unit #6714 never had dynamic brakes.  A-unit #6119 gad a steam generator added in 3/52 and dynamics brakes added in 11/55.  However, roof tanks were also added, probably at the same time as the dynamic brakes.  B-unit #6178 is at least plausable in that it came from the factory equipped with a steam generator with dynamic brakes added in 1954.  The truth is that only a handful of F7 A-units (maybe 5) ever had steam generators.

Am I wrong or am I being too picky.

--
John Ryan


locked Walthers F7's

RamblingReck
 

 I have been looking at purchasing the Walthers F7 models.  The numbers offered, though, do not seem to match the configuration very well.  The models have dynamic brakes and steam generators.  My research shows that A-unit 6717 never had a steam generator and A-unit #6714 never had dynamic brakes.  A-unit #6119 gad a steam generator added in 3/52 and dynamics brakes added in 11/55.  However, roof tanks were also added, probably at the same time as the dynamic brakes.  B-unit #6178 is at least plausable in that it came from the factory equipped with a steam generator with dynamic brakes added in 1954.  The truth is that only a handful of F7 A-units (maybe 5) ever had steam generators.

Am I wrong or am I being too picky.

--
John Ryan


locked 3rd Rail/Sunset Models making SOU Dual-Service F3's

David Friedlander
 

All,

Recent news...Sunset Models/3rd Rail is now going to attempt do the dual service (steam generator + rooftop air tanks) F3's in both green and black. These are O Scale models and come in both 3R (TMCC control), and 2R (DCC w/ QSI Titan). For more info and your chance to reserve that or other roads: http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.html#F3

I think O Scalers are really lucky that this company is willing to do anything in Southern with road-specific detailing these days. Hopefully there is enough of us interested that can reserve enough units to get these produced in Southern.

As for other Southern offerings...they also have reservations open for Southern E6's and E7's in both green and black.  SD40-2 reservations are not cancelled, just put on the back burner to simmer around for enough orders to build up. Of course one reservation option is in Southern.

I recently moved to NY, so if anyone is in or near the city and doing any sort of modeling (Southern or not), it would be cool to visit. All the best.

David Friedlander
New York, NY


locked Re: Southern F3 Air Tank Dimensions and Lettering Dimensions

David Friedlander
 

All,

I will most definitely join the modeling list once established.  I'd help moderate it too if desired.

In regards to my Question #1 and #2:
I looked through my digital library and found Bob Harpe's build for these.  I feel very blessed to have a PDF of it, as it answers my questions for #1 and #2. Thank you Bob for the detailed build and Allen Cain for producing the PDF.  Though I did notice that a few of the pictures I'm looking at, it looks like 4136, 4140, and 4143 match Bob's roof piping, but every other photo I see seems to show the tanks on the fireman side connected together rather than doing into the roof.  Thoughts?

Following up to Question #3:
Looking closely... the Yellow lettering on the Green Tuxedo locomotives be the same font as the Gold lettering on the Black Tuxedo locomotives...just a lot smaller.  Do others agree?

If the sizing is the same as the FT diagram I have, the yellow SOUTHERN should be 7" tall and the numbers should be 5.5" tall.  Do folks agree with that?

Additional question:
Looks like the SOUTHERN lettering is DL-6015 and the numbers are DL-3039.   The CNO&TP units had lettering near the rear.  Does anyone have a copy of DL-6016 for the CNO&TP lettering?  I'm willing to draw the letters and provide them to Ike to put on the Google Drive, or groups.io, or wherever is most convenient for all to use for their modeling.

Thanks for your time,
David Friedlander


On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:43 PM davidfriedlandernc <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
All,

I'm currently trying to figure out three things for Southern (Phase 3) F3's that had the Rooftop Tanks:
1. Does anyone have photos or drawings of the roofs to determine where piping for the tanks should be routed? Don't see anything really good in my books, though I found this really nice G-scale build: http://dieseldetailer.proboards.com/thread/15115/another-southern-f3a

2. Does anyone know the actual dimensions for the tanks?  I know they're not the same as the E8.

3. I noticed the southernmodeler.info site is gone.  Do the lettering diagrams (dimensions, etc.) for the yellow lettering on the green units exist online?


Thanks,
David Friedlander


locked Re: Southern F3 Air Tank Dimensions and Lettering Dimensions

George Eichelberger
 

David:

One of the reasons we established “ModelingTheSouthern@groups.io” (a sub-group of SouthernRailway@groups.io) is to create a “place” where we can focus on accurate SR modeling information AND extend access to the archives for folks that cannot get to Chattanooga easily. I’m not certain, but I think people have to subscribe to “ModelingTheSouthern” before they get postings. With the archives work of the last couple of weeks, we have not done much with the modeling group but that needs to be corrected.

One thing we would like to include is simply an album of Southern and CofG models that people have done. Just seeing what other have done/are working on is a great “starter” for new projects. If anyone would like to help moderate the group, please let me know and we’ll set it up.

It is not possible to respond to individual data requests from everyone (SRHA members will have priority) but locating and posting drawings for projects we are seeing will be easier to do.

I’ve attached an example of a SR car I wanted to model the first time I saw it, a 50’ container flat. The cars were built to load bagged Kaolin to the Port of Savannah without unloading the 20’ containers. They replaced using 89’ ft TTX cars (imagine switching those around in a middle Georgia Kaolin plant!)

We have all of the drawings the Southern used to modify standard 50’ flats for the service.

Ike
 

On Oct 22, 2018, at 12:18 AM, davidfriedlandernc <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Ike,

Wish I had that diagram when I did my F7 freight units.  Maybe I'll go back and redo the piping I did to make them more realistic.

Wish the archive was closer, so I could volunteer there...it doesn't help that I recently moved even further away up to NYC.

David Friedlander


On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:58 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Southern drawing DL-3304 shows the aftercooler piping for “Freight Units”. I will see if there is a digital version of the air tanks drawing tomorrow. If not, I expect there is a hard copy of the drawing in the archives at TVRM.

Ike

PS The Friday and Saturday work session got all of the Presidents’, Central of Georgia Executive Dept and ICC Field Notes unpacked and on the reinstalled shelves. The next formal work session is not until November (dates are on the SRHA.net web site) but we will be there before the planned session. If anyone wants to see the archives after next weekend, send a note to archives@....



<DL-3304 aftercooler pipe arrt.jpeg><DL-3304 aftercooler pipe arrt.jpeg>


locked Re: Southern F3 Air Tank Dimensions and Lettering Dimensions

David Friedlander
 

Ike,

Wish I had that diagram when I did my F7 freight units.  Maybe I'll go back and redo the piping I did to make them more realistic.

Wish the archive was closer, so I could volunteer there...it doesn't help that I recently moved even further away up to NYC.

David Friedlander


On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:58 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Southern drawing DL-3304 shows the aftercooler piping for “Freight Units”. I will see if there is a digital version of the air tanks drawing tomorrow. If not, I expect there is a hard copy of the drawing in the archives at TVRM.

Ike

PS The Friday and Saturday work session got all of the Presidents’, Central of Georgia Executive Dept and ICC Field Notes unpacked and on the reinstalled shelves. The next formal work session is not until November (dates are on the SRHA.net web site) but we will be there before the planned session. If anyone wants to see the archives after next weekend, send a note to archives@....


locked Re: Southern F3 Air Tank Dimensions and Lettering Dimensions

George Eichelberger
 

Southern drawing DL-3304 shows the aftercooler piping for “Freight Units”. I will see if there is a digital version of the air tanks drawing tomorrow. If not, I expect there is a hard copy of the drawing in the archives at TVRM.

Ike

PS The Friday and Saturday work session got all of the Presidents’, Central of Georgia Executive Dept and ICC Field Notes unpacked and on the reinstalled shelves. The next formal work session is not until November (dates are on the SRHA.net web site) but we will be there before the planned session. If anyone wants to see the archives after next weekend, send a note to archives@....


locked Southern F3 Air Tank Dimensions and Lettering Dimensions

David Friedlander
 

All,

I'm currently trying to figure out three things for Southern (Phase 3) F3's that had the Rooftop Tanks:
1. Does anyone have photos or drawings of the roofs to determine where piping for the tanks should be routed? Don't see anything really good in my books, though I found this really nice G-scale build: http://dieseldetailer.proboards.com/thread/15115/another-southern-f3a

2. Does anyone know the actual dimensions for the tanks?  I know they're not the same as the E8.

3. I noticed the southernmodeler.info site is gone.  Do the lettering diagrams (dimensions, etc.) for the yellow lettering on the green units exist online?


Thanks,
David Friedlander


locked Re: Condensed List and Description of Locomotives

Robert Graham
 

David

I have a SOU form 1014 that I believe is a 1967 copy; it DOES NOT have an effective date (olive green cover, dark green tape binding) but I believe it to be a 1967 edition, as it does not have the SD45's listed, but does have the 1965 SD35's and still has the E6A's listed, which were T/I to EMD on SD45's in 1967. It shows CofG F3A listed as 0901-0909 listed as on the roster. The next newest edition I have is May 6 2970 and the CofG F3A are not listed.

Best I can do.

Bob Graham


---- "David Payne via Groups.Io" <davidcofga=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

 
 
Does anyone have a copy of the subject list dated January 1, 1967 (on or about)?  If so, would you let me know if all nine of the Central of Georgia F3 locomotives (901 - 909) are listed.
Thank you.
David Payne
 
 


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