Date   

locked Re: Hogshead cars

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Thanks for the replies about the Hogshead cars.  Very educational.  Completely outside of my work at the Southern in intermodal.  

If memory serves we did have some tire shipments by piggyback into the Atlanta ramp.  Goodyear was a customer, but they make more than just tires.

In the '80s and '90s Michelin shipped 50-foot boxcars of tires to a bonded warehouse in Norcross on the Stone Mountain Lead.  Mostly Railboxes if I recall correctly.


Scott Chatfield


locked Re: Hogshead cars

Mark Demaline
 

When I called on Goodyear's Akron OH HQ for CSX, which back then -- in the 1990's -- also served the Gadsden plant, both we and NS were trying our best to retain the rail shipment of tires. I believe NS also tried
using the Southern hogshead cars there, but the Plant Manager, who I met on a visit there, loved trucks and hated rail. He even wanted to receive his carbon black shipments via truck instead of rail. We even looked
at supplying 86' Hi-cubes, and that was when NS furnished some of those Southern cars, but the tire loaders looked at one we had spotted, and said there was no way they would agree to even try to load tires in a
Hi-cube car. They were a tough bunch of guys, literally, as they could grab and squeeze some tires under each arm, and take them into a boxcar or truck trailer. Try that at home!

What finally ended the tires by rail, even for the NS, was a combination of more strict quality control and rejects by the automotive companies, who would refuse to install tires with scrapes and heavy marks on the
sidewalls onto new vehicles, and a trucking company which came up with a tire compactor, which not only reduced damage & rejects, but made the loaders' job a lot easier. Goodyear shared that they could load
more tires into a 45' trailer, using a compactor, than could be hand-loaded into a 50' boxcar. And faster. Goodyear would not share which trucking company held the design & rights, but we did some homework and
contacted that trucking company. However, as expected, they laughed at us, replied "No", and hung up the phone.

 Corrections and clarifications are welcome.  Regards,  ~ Mark D


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Graham <rgraham2@...>

James,

I suspect the RJ Reynolds acquisition of a truck fleet would be tied in to the State of NC's imposition of the tobacco leaf processing tax and resultant company activity to avoid that expense by changing where processing occurred. The huge American Tobacco Co leaf processing plant and ageing sheds at Pennrington 2 miles north of the Reidsville passenger station and the main ATC cigarette mfg plant was also shut down at that time and ATC began daily trucking of processed leaf from the ATC Richmond VA leaf processing plant to Reidsville via a commercial truck line, Burton Lines, as well. The SOU "tobacco barns" used to be seen all over the K line north of Winston Salem and the A&Y to Brook Cove, where RJR had their huge leaf processing and ageing facility, as well as RJR Mocksville. I don't know the exact date of the tax change, but SOU in Reidsville in the late 1970's was flooded with boxcars that had brought tobacco in from both Richmond as well as inported tobacco from overseas, usually coming into Norfolk VA or Porrtsmouth VA. Reidsville even had a US Customs inspection officer stationed there to inspect and properly approve incoming tobacco imports from overseas. At my employer, Miller Brewing Reidsville Container Division, these cars that were used for shipping tobacco leaf in became the pool of cars that we would be sent by the SOU Reidsville Freight agent for loading briquetted aluminum scrap loaded on pallets for shipment back to Reynolds Metals (unrelated to RJ Reynolds Tobacco) in Alabama. This clean scrap (meaning undecorated - no ink printed label) and segregated by alloy, was quite valuable and went directly back into the melt shop at the aluminum smelter to be recast and rolled back into can stock sheet. I used to go back to the plant rail loading dock and inspect the cars and often found US Customs placards for Sou Ry and ACL/SCL RR's for loads of import tobacco. ATC never used tobacco barns in Reidsville or Pennrington that I recall. One additional factor was dock door spacing at both shipper and consignee. Both facilities would have to have a dock with proper door spacing and length to accommodate the tobacco barns. Older facilities built to handle smaller cars might not have been considered economically feasible to reconfigure

I can not say with certainty, but also suspect the use of SOU/NS "tobacco barns" for the shipping of tires from Goodyear Tire & Rubber could have started in Danville VA, as there were plenty of the SOU tobacco barns around there, too. Most of the major tobacco companies had warehousing and leaf processing facilities there. The SOU tobacco barns had one distinct disadvantage over other modern larger cu ft boxcars; they only had 25K floors, meaning the floor of these cars could only handle a maximum front axle loading weight of a forklift of 25,000 lbs. That limits the size of forklifts and the discrete loads being handled to about 12,000 lbs. The average smaller size forklift used in warehousing weighs about 12-13000 lbs. As forklifts work as a teeter-totter, the combined weight of the forklift and the load being lifted or moved bears almost entirely on the front axle, hence the floor load restriction. Most modern boxcars have at least a 50K floor and the cars we used for or biggest jumbo Redicon endstock coils, which weighted up to 30,000 lbs each had 65K floors. Goodyear loaded the tires be hand, literally throwing them in until every nook was filled. I think the SOU/NS was just trying to find a use for the cars and they worked for that. Same deal with our 16 oz can stock coils. They were rarely more than 7500 lbs, due to a narrow width and a maximum overall diameter to be able to fit on the uncoiler mandrel with proper operating clearance. These coils, like all can stock and end stock, were shipped laying flat on a pallet. So the 16 ox can stock coils worked out perfectly for loading in a tobacco barn without going over the floor weight limit. We used the double door cars to permit easier forklift entry and exit with a loaded coil pallet. The tires at Goodyear, being hand loaded, did not require the larger door clearance. Once they worked out, it appears Goodyear elected to go that route at a number of their other plants, based upon other reader comments.

Bob Graham   



locked Re: Hogshead cars

Robert Graham
 

James,

I suspect the RJ Reynolds acquisition of a truck fleet would be tied in to the State of NC's imposition of the tobacco leaf processing tax and resultant company activity to avoid that expense by changing where processing occurred. The huge American Tobacco Co leaf processing plant and ageing sheds at Pennrington 2 miles north of the Reidsville passenger station and the main ATC cigarette mfg plant was also shut down at that time and ATC began daily trucking of processed leaf from the ATC Richmond VA leaf processing plant to Reidsville via a commercial truck line, Burton Lines, as well. The SOU "tobacco barns" used to be seen all over the K line north of Winston Salem and the A&Y to Brook Cove, where RJR had their huge leaf processing and ageing facility, as well as RJR Mocksville. I don't know the exact date of the tax change, but SOU in Reidsville in the late 1970's was flooded with boxcars that had brought tobacco in from both Richmond as well as inported tobacco from overseas, usually coming into Norfolk VA or Porrtsmouth VA. Reidsville even had a US Customs inspection officer stationed there to inspect and properly approve incoming tobacco imports from overseas. At my employer, Miller Brewing Reidsville Container Division, these cars that were used for shipping tobacco leaf in became the pool of cars that we would be sent by the SOU Reidsville Freight agent for loading briquetted aluminum scrap loaded on pallets for shipment back to Reynolds Metals (unrelated to RJ Reynolds Tobacco) in Alabama. This clean scrap (meaning undecorated - no ink printed label) and segregated by alloy, was quite valuable and went directly back into the melt shop at the aluminum smelter to be recast and rolled back into can stock sheet. I used to go back to the plant rail loading dock and inspect the cars and often found US Customs placards for Sou Ry and ACL/SCL RR's for loads of import tobacco. ATC never used tobacco barns in Reidsville or Pennrington that I recall. One additional factor was dock door spacing at both shipper and consignee. Both facilities would have to have a dock with proper door spacing and length to accommodate the tobacco barns. Older facilities built to handle smaller cars might not have been considered economically feasible to reconfigure

I can not say with certainty, but also suspect the use of SOU/NS "tobacco barns" for the shipping of tires from Goodyear Tire & Rubber could have started in Danville VA, as there were plenty of the SOU tobacco barns around there, too. Most of the major tobacco companies had warehousing and leaf processing facilities there. The SOU tobacco barns had one distinct disadvantage over other modern larger cu ft boxcars; they only had 25K floors, meaning the floor of these cars could only handle a maximum front axle loading weight of a forklift of 25,000 lbs. That limits the size of forklifts and the discrete loads being handled to about 12,000 lbs. The average smaller size forklift used in warehousing weighs about 12-13000 lbs. As forklifts work as a teeter-totter, the combined weight of the forklift and the load being lifted or moved bears almost entirely on the front axle, hence the floor load restriction. Most modern boxcars have at least a 50K floor and the cars we used for or biggest jumbo Redicon endstock coils, which weighted up to 30,000 lbs each had 65K floors. Goodyear loaded the tires be hand, literally throwing them in until every nook was filled. I think the SOU/NS was just trying to find a use for the cars and they worked for that. Same deal with our 16 oz can stock coils. They were rarely more than 7500 lbs, due to a narrow width and a maximum overall diameter to be able to fit on the uncoiler mandrel with proper operating clearance. These coils, like all can stock and end stock, were shipped laying flat on a pallet. So the 16 ox can stock coils worked out perfectly for loading in a tobacco barn without going over the floor weight limit. We used the double door cars to permit easier forklift entry and exit with a loaded coil pallet. The tires at Goodyear, being hand loaded, did not require the larger door clearance. Once they worked out, it appears Goodyear elected to go that route at a number of their other plants, based upon other reader comments.

Bob Graham   

-----------------------------------------

From: "James"
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday May 26 2020 8:21:03AM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Hogshead cars


Bob,

Thanks for the info.  Would that tax have coincided with RJ Reynolds purchase of a large trucking fleet in the early 1980’s?
I remember seeing these cars come from the RJ Reynolds Storage facility in Brook Cove, NC to Rural Hall and then switched to go back to Winston Salem, that was during the 1970’s.  RJ Reynolds also had a major facility in Lexington, KY.

I do remember seeing where they were used by NS on the NW Pumkin vine line from Roanoke to Winston Salem at Firestone, VA in tire service.
That was back when you could search car number locations on the NS Website.  Always meant to go and photograph them there.

Of course we still have one hidden away in Bramwell, W VA.      



James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




locked Re: Hogshead cars

James
 


Bob,

Thanks for the info.  Would that tax have coincided with RJ Reynolds purchase of a large trucking fleet in the early 1980’s?
I remember seeing these cars come from the RJ Reynolds Storage facility in Brook Cove, NC to Rural Hall and then switched to go back to Winston Salem, that was during the 1970’s.  RJ Reynolds also had a major facility in Lexington, KY.

I do remember seeing where they were used by NS on the NW Pumkin vine line from Roanoke to Winston Salem at Firestone, VA in tire service.
That was back when you could search car number locations on the NS Website.  Always meant to go and photograph them there.

Of course we still have one hidden away in Bramwell, W VA.      



James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




locked Re: Hogshead cars

Robert Graham
 

Absolutely they were in interchange service. They (all 3 types; original Coster Shop built dutch roof single door & flat roof single door; and P-S built flat roof double door) were in use hauling tobacco in and around the flue cured belt area in north central NC and southside VA for years, well into the post-NS merger era in the mid 1980's. A fair number even got NS paint and reporting marks. They also were seen in and around Lexington KY at the burley leaf processing plants of the major tobacco mfr's. Their classic, and original purpose was hauling tobacco for export to the Port of Morehead City NC, replacing 40 ft boxcars in that service. Most hauling of tobacco hogsheads ceased after the start of NC imposed a leaf processing tax by poundage on tobacco ageing and processing. This had the almost immediate effect of closing significant leaf processing facilities of major tobacco products mfr's (note that this did NOT affect production of retail tobacco products) and resulted in a surplus of these cars in the NS fleet. They finished their service lives early in the 21st century hauling truck and aircraft tires from Goodyear's Danville VA plant and believe it or not, hauling aluminum can coil stock on pallets to my employer's can plant in Reidsville NC; we had 6 of the P-S built double door cars in assigned service from Reynolds Metals Co Lister Hill Alabama to Reynolds Metals Can & End Plant in Reidsville NC. NS gave us a 50ft boxcar rate on these cars for an 85 ft IL car, that allowed us to place 3 additional coil pallets in them over the 60 ft double door cars were had been using. We ceased shipping by rail in 1998 by new owner edict. Goodyear ceased shipping tires in these cars in the early 2000's, and decided to ship products by truck. The cars disappeared from our area shortly thereafter; most had been in service for 40 years.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "D. Scott Chatfield"
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Monday May 25 2020 10:04:01PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Hogshead cars

A few questions about the ever popular hogshead cars.

1)  Where they ever in interchange service?  Especially in their original role of hauling tobacco "hogsheads".

2) I think most of them spent their later years hauling tires, especially from the plant near Spartanburg.  When did that start?  When did they last haul tobacco?  Were they used for anything else?


Scott Chatfield


locked Re: Hogshead cars

C J Wyatt
 

I saw them in the early 1990s at the Goodyear Plant in Topeka KS.

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, May 25, 2020, 10:27:24 PM EDT, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:


A few questions about the ever popular hogshead cars.

1)  Where they ever in interchange service?  Especially in their original role of hauling tobacco "hogsheads".

2) I think most of them spent their later years hauling tires, especially from the plant near Spartanburg.  When did that start?  When did they last haul tobacco?  Were they used for anything else?


Scott Chatfield


locked Re: Hogshead cars

Jason Greene
 

They would have worked well in coke service. Knock the sky lights out and unload through the side doors. 

Just kidding of course. 

Were they not used in the furniture industry after tobacco service? 

Bob Graham said they were tested in beer can service, delivering empty cans to the Miller plant in NC I believe. Maybe he can refresh the story. 

Jason Greene 

On May 25, 2020, at 10:04 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:


A few questions about the ever popular hogshead cars.

1)  Where they ever in interchange service?  Especially in their original role of hauling tobacco "hogsheads".

2) I think most of them spent their later years hauling tires, especially from the plant near Spartanburg.  When did that start?  When did they last haul tobacco?  Were they used for anything else?


Scott Chatfield


locked Hogshead cars

D. Scott Chatfield
 

A few questions about the ever popular hogshead cars.

1)  Where they ever in interchange service?  Especially in their original role of hauling tobacco "hogsheads".

2) I think most of them spent their later years hauling tires, especially from the plant near Spartanburg.  When did that start?  When did they last haul tobacco?  Were they used for anything else?


Scott Chatfield


locked Looking for Patrick Tillery

Jim King
 

Patrick Tillery please contact me off-list re: your SOU/NS wood chip hopper reservation.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


locked Re: Southern Railway In Color Volume 4

Allen Cain
 

From the Morning Sun Site:

Southern Railway in Color, Volume 4, cuts across the deep south despite starting in Illinois and Indiana. It then skips to eastern Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana before turning north to include Georgia, Florida and parts of the Carolinas. There's a thorough treatment of the crossroads of the Southern Railway, Atlanta. Exceptional photos are mostly from the 1970s and 1980s and feature some out of the way locations and unusual operations.   


Allen Cain

 


locked SRHA "By Location" Digital Files

George Eichelberger
 

As we move toward being able to do research and work in the SRHA archives, it may be worthwhile to discuss some of the projects we want to do.

The “Photos and Drawings” digital file includes more than 12,000 images. It consists of .tiff files of either photos, drawings or documents of locations in alphabetical order. Ohio, DC and Florida are the smallest, NC (2,632 files) is the largest.

Simply by the alphabet I’ll use “Alabama by Location” (1,078 items) as an example. A text (work in progress) version of the file is available on Google Drive with the following link:


Alabama locations are in separate directories (the syntax is Unix on my Mac) with individual scans for that location included. While locations are typically a town or city, items such as water towers (called water stations by the Southern, coaling towers are fuel stations), bridges and line side structures may show Mileposts as their location if they are not in a town. (Note that in railroad terminology, “station” may refer to a physical place, the end of a passing siding, in addition to a “depot”.

The photos and negatives in the SRHA archives came from various sources, some photos and negative envelopes are well marked, others tell us little to nothing, some are simply wrong. Notice that many items on the list are simply consecutive numbers. When the items were scanned, the goal was simply to record what was available, not to edit captions or attempt to figure out what the item is showing.

We need to revisit each photo print, drawing or negative and either enter or confirm the file name (and IPTC meta data) or determine if the location can be identified without caption data. Because whoever is doing the work will need access to both the digital files and scanned material, the work must be done at the SRHA archives at TVRM.

As we can open things back up, if you are interested in helping,  plan to go to Chattanooga either for a work session or other dates if we can make arrangements. Send a note to archives@...

Ike


locked Southern Railway In Color Volume 4

Curtis Brookshire
 

FYI to all: Southern Railway in Color Volume 4 is now available for pre-order from Morning Sun Books. I just ordered mine. There's a $10.00 discount for pre-orders. Morning Sun is listing an August 1 release date. 

Curtis Brookshire, Pine Level NC


locked Google Drive

George Eichelberger
 

All:

Sorry some folks were having a problem downloading the SR tonnage map from Google Drive. They changed something and reset the defaults for downloads. I changed it back to simply requiring using the link:


I’d like to hear everyone's comments on making drawings like this available.

And…we plan (!) on having the June SRHA archives work session as scheduled (www.srha.net). We will be asking anyone coming to observe some anti virus items and we are monitoring the conditions in GA and TN.

If enough people are interested, we will schedule a “virtual” work session to explain how drawings are marked, etc.

Ike


locked Re: Asheville/S-Line Traffic

Tim
 

My time period is 1974. I like EMD -2s and there was still a passenger train on the line then.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


locked Re: Asheville/S-Line Traffic

George Eichelberger
 

Tim:

We have a number of Asheville Div train sheets from the early 1940s, they show an amazing number of trains on the River Line west of Asheville. As a Division Point, Asheville handled trains on the S Line and the A&S not to mention servicing locos from those lines and the Murphy Branch.

I don’t know what dates you are interested in so I’ve uploaded the latest full resolution System Tonnage Map for 1958 vs 1957. It’s a big .tiff file but it downloads quickly.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aVM_-FpdDTlg0OlV38bamtjuIgL0djiY/view?usp=sharing

The presentation I mentioned is primarily about John Sevier Yard but Asheville is mentioned several times, if enough people are interested it could be one of the first we record and put on line.

Ike



On May 19, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Tim <tarumph@...> wrote:

Hello Ike;

As another modeler of the Southern lines in North Carolina (in my case, the S line from Spencer/Salisbury to Morganton) this doesn't surprise me as much as you might think. I have the good fortune to have a number of train orders issued along this line and I have evidence of eastbound freight trains running in as many as four sections. When additional westbound trains were needed they were generally run as extras.

It's kind of lost in that blob between Salisbury and Charlotte, but I wonder about the tonnage between Statesville and Charlotte on the O line. I've heard that there were some monster trains run on this line and I have at least one order for an engine to display signals and run as First No 148 from Asheville to Statesville. I presume that from there it would go to Charlotte down the O Line.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


locked Re: Peachtree Station Drawings

Kyle Shannon
 

Ike, 

I have a drawing of the Butterfly shed for the Asheville platform that I can bring to scan in the next work session, whenever that is.




On Tuesday, May 19, 2020, 2:12 PM, sgwarner88@... wrote:

I always enjoyed boarding 20 and stepping down from 19 at this "suburban" station.  I expect that the SRHA files may not have one interesting aspect of it, though, since NS was diligent to trashing records a few years after I retired.  Working under the NRPC authority in the early 2000's for NS, we were experiencing spalling from under Peachtree Road, threatening Amtrak engine crews boarding the engines under it.  I met with GA. DOT as well.  After researching the history, we found that the small parking area in front of it was actually on top of the old Peachtree Road, and the same parking area overpass was actually GA DOT Peachtree Road RofW.   GA DOT had to fix it, by first installing a net to catch falling concrete pieces (and after avoiding their responsibility by closing the space for a while).  So, who would have thunk it?


locked Re: Peachtree Station Drawings

Stephen Warner
 

I always enjoyed boarding 20 and stepping down from 19 at this "suburban" station.  I expect that the SRHA files may not have one interesting aspect of it, though, since NS was diligent to trashing records a few years after I retired.  Working under the NRPC authority in the early 2000's for NS, we were experiencing spalling from under Peachtree Road, threatening Amtrak engine crews boarding the engines under it.  I met with GA. DOT as well.  After researching the history, we found that the small parking area in front of it was actually on top of the old Peachtree Road, and the same parking area overpass was actually GA DOT Peachtree Road RofW.   GA DOT had to fix it, by first installing a net to catch falling concrete pieces (and after avoiding their responsibility by closing the space for a while).  So, who would have thunk it?


locked Asheville/S-Line Traffic

Tim
 

Hello Ike;

As another modeler of the Southern lines in North Carolina (in my case, the S line from Spencer/Salisbury to Morganton) this doesn't surprise me as much as you might think. I have the good fortune to have a number of train orders issued along this line and I have evidence of eastbound freight trains running in as many as four sections. When additional westbound trains were needed they were generally run as extras.

It's kind of lost in that blob between Salisbury and Charlotte, but I wonder about the tonnage between Statesville and Charlotte on the O line. I've heard that there were some monster trains run on this line and I have at least one order for an engine to display signals and run as First No 148 from Asheville to Statesville. I presume that from there it would go to Charlotte down the O Line.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


locked Re: [Southern Railway] Peachtree Station Drawings

John M. Ware, P.E.
 

Ike,

  Specifically what are you trying to accomplish with the Brookwood station drawings? A re constructed set of original drawings? Organized arrangement of existing drawings or composite  of Floor Plans and Building Elevations? Sections?

  Is the existing information only on micro-film not paper?

 

John Ware

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 8:25 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peachtree Station Drawings

 

There is an extensive set of microfilm, now scanned, drawings of Brookwood (Peachtree) Station in Atlanta in the SRHA archives. All are partial views of the architect’s plans in the very detailed style of the period when buildings incorporated significant stone work. (One example is attached.)

 

There is also a good size file on the planning, construction and opening of the station, conceived to be an Atlanta station stop that would not require trains to go to and from Atlanta Term Station from Howells.

 

Even without a potential TIES article, reconstructed, even re-drawn, drawings would be a valuable addition to the archives. If anyone is interested in helping, or has an idea that may be useful, please contact SRHA at archives@....

 

Thanks!

 

Ike

 


locked Re: Peachtree Station Drawings

George Eichelberger
 

Mike:

I promise Asheville was more than a “Service Area”. I used several of these charts in a presentation to the Lexington Group a few years ago. Even an audience that knowledgable about RR history was surprised to hear the Southern carried more tonnage through Asheville than Atlanta.

Ike



On May 19, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

Ike:

Do you have any other drawings of Asheville yard and anything else? I will be building a model of the Branch on my layout, but I want to include operations of Asheville area going to Spencer Yard which would be a off layout staging. So far with what you and Gordon have given me and I have been able to find on old Topo maps. Asheville was just more than a service area for the Southern back in the early years.

Mike


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