Date   

locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

David Friedlander
 

Jason,

Interesting thought.  What would a typical train look like for the royal palm, peach queen, or piedmont, in roughly the same time frame or slightly earlier? I'm far less familiar with those trains.

David

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:22 AM Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:
Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)


> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan




locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Robert Hanson
 

In the 1960's and 1970's the coaches generally ran ahead of the diner and the sleepers were placed behind it on almost all passenger trains. There were exceptions, but that was the general practice.

For reasons unknown Amtrak reversed the order some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
>
>
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan



locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Jason Greene
 

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@gmail.com> wrote:

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan


locked Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

David Friedlander
 

All,
 
So maybe this isn't the right list serve for this topic, but I'll start here as its mostly historical in nature (with an admitted purpose to create factory models).

TLDR - Looking for some answers and advice on an approach for an O-Scale company to make three SOU named passenger trains at the same time, that has thought about minimizing tooling costs and has a good chance of meeting minimum production quantities.

More:
In O-Scale, there is generally two camps of people when it comes to Southern passenger trains.  There is a following for those who want a RTR Tennessean (behind streamlined steam or these E6's), and a RTR Southern Crescent (late 60's/early 70's - pre-black roofs behind Southern Crescent E8's).   There may be a good fit to try to do the Southerner as well as I have a feeling much of the consist of that train is similar to the Tennessean.  The ultimate goal here is to try to reuse-tooling across all three named trains with no or minor changes (deskirting, covering flutes, etc.) and as few different car types as possible to reduce complexity, yet provide a good feel for the train. I admit I think there is far more overlap between the Southerner and the Tennessean than the Southern Crescent, but the Southern Crescent is also an extremely popular train too for obvious historical reasons.
 
I usually independently research, but this topic delves into things I don't feel I know a lot about and would really appreciate third-party opinions. I still need to sit down and read deeper into a few of my books (I have the floor plan books for the Passenger Car Library (ACF/Budd), the Pullman-Standard Library, the SOU handbook, SOU color freight guide, SOU varnish book, and SOU passenger trains in service, along with most other SOU books) along with some online resources (such as https://condrenrails.com/MRP/Tennessean/Tennessean-equipment.htm) and figure out a good "set" of cars for each train...but figured I'd start here in case someone can answer some initial questions and has a suggestion on where I can spend most of my time researching.
 
The end goal? With such a small group of Southern modelers in O Scale, I'm looking to make a case for 3rd Rail/Sunset Models (I'm soliciting them, not the other way around.) to possibly offer these named trains all at the same time in order to meet the minimum quantity necessary to make it feasible to produce these trains in O Scale.  Yes, Lionel recently came out with 21" plastic cars, but they were based on the NYC Empire State Express (big surprise there.). While not a Rapido (really wish they did some O), 3rd Rail has proven it can do an amazing job on passenger cars. See the SAL Meteor at the bottom of this page.
 
Marketing in O-Scale/O-Gauge has traditionally fallen into 6-car or 8-car sets along with some extra add-on coaches or sleepers, etc.  The car quantity for a "set" is probably due to size-constraints for a layout in O-scale. With that said, I'm looking for opinions on what 6-8 cars plus add-ons for each train to get the full "flavor" of each.  My initial thought is to try reduce tooling cost and reuse across all three trains as much as possible, even if the later-era cars require some slight modifications, like skirt removal, or panels over the flutes. I'm thinking one could reuse the Tennessean tooling for later era-cars, say Corinth (de-skirt and add plating over the flutes), 48-seat dining cars (just de-skirt them?), and possibly the 56-seat chair cars (de-skirt, but I think these were retired early on). I know the Crescent would need several 10-6 sleepers, 52s coaches, maybe a coach-lounge, and not sure what else to make it feel right, especially at a 6 to 8 car train. I can't seem to find my spreadsheet that had a bunch of crescent consists all listed out.  To attract other modelers and meet the minimum production quantity, the add-on cars could also be painted in other railroad paint schemes if the car plan was shared with other roads (Some were for L&N, AWP, FEC, WofA, and I would need to identify that where possible). I am also thinking the later Crescent cars can appeal to Amtrak modelers of the Rainbow era, which would also help meet the minimum production quantity if they purchased add-on cars or even the Crescent set.

Additional questions I know I lack answers to:
1. I don't know a whole lot about the Southerner consist except for the fact it had the Louisiana OBS.  Does someone have an idea where I could look to see the train's make up? I seem to remember there was a list somewhere where the specific car assignments for the consists were shown for the Tennessean, Southerner, and Royal Palm. ( My list below may need altering because I'm not sure what cars ran in what trainset. )
2. Regarding coaches, any idea if any 56s coaches from the Tennessean could be reused on the 60's/70's Crescent? I read that at least one of them may have been donated sometime in the mid 60's, so they may only work on the earlier trains.
3. I'm also noticing trucks varied in what looks like two main truck variants.  Does anyone have a good resource for that? Hopefully none were replaced over time.

I've yet to produce a spreadsheet to keep track of variations, etc, but after about 3 hours of looking around books and drafting this email, here are my initial passenger train suggestions below.
 
As-delivered Tennessean (6-8 cars):
-1700 Corinth (60Ft RPO)
-1725 Lenoir City(30Ft RPO)**If 8-cars
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail)
-706 Bedford (Bag-Dorm-Coach)**If 8-cars
-810 Bristol (56-seat chair Car)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car)
-814 Roanoke (56-seat Chair Car)
-1150 Washington (Tav-Lng OBS)
 
Add-on:
-1701 Grand Junction (60Ft RPO)
-1726 Athens (30Ft RPO)**If 8-cars (Can also be de-skirted and have flutes covered for later-era car)
-1750 Decatur (Bag-Mail)
-704 Johnson City (Bag-Dorm-Coach)**If 8-cars (Can also be offered de-skirted for later-era car)
-808 Sheffield (56-seat Chair Car)
-811 Sweetwater (56-seat Chair Car)
-812 Charlottesville (56-seat Chair Car)
-813 Lynchburg (56-seat Chair Car)



(As-Delivered?) Southerner (6-8 cars):
-(What was used on this train? Is it basically the same train as the Tennessean, but with different OBS and different car names otherwise?)
-
-
-
-
-
-1101 Louisana (OBS)
 
Add-on:
-
-



late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)
 
 
Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan
 
I am appreciative to anyone who has a thought on the subject.  Definitely deeper research needed on my end, but hopefully someone can help answer my initial questions and advice on what cars should be included.
 
David Friedlander
NYC or Columbia, MD


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Discontinuances - 1966

Marv Clemons
 

Revealing also that the main concern expressed in Claytor's memo is regarding the movement of mail, not passengers, which along with REA were the only viable revenue streams. 

Ironically, with fewer remaining trains to carry the mail, the following year USPS switched from rail to trucks, which finished off what little service still remained.

Marv


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Discontinuances - 1966

Stephen Warner
 

Interesting to see the plans.  While I was in Trans. at UT I saw the break in the Chatt. Connection with 17, but did not understand the reason.  Going through the details of the ICC hearings, I believe that you may see my testimony at the joint 1/2, 27/28 discontinuance hearings in Knoxville in ‘66.  Surprised that SR hired me after that.


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Discontinuances - 1966

John Stewart
 

HI folks

 

Interesting story and documentation, albeit sad if you love passenger trains

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Discontinuances - 1966

Robert Hanson
 

Marv,

If you've read Fred Frailey's book, Twilight of the Great Trains, you know that some of the trains Brosnan was in such a sweat to get rid of were actually profitable.  Some maybe only marginally so, but profitable nonetheless.

Seems that Brosnan read a piece in the Wall Street Journal (I think) about the Penn Central's major passenger woes and it gave him a fixation on getting rid of Southern's passenger trains, even though Southern virtually had no passenger problem compared to that of the PC.

And he gave Claytor his marching orders - "Get rid of the trains!"

And the rest is history.

Read it, if you haven't already.  It is an eye-opening read.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2020 9:41 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Discontinuances - 1966

A facinating, behind-the-scenes look at Graham Claytor's rationale and tactics for the wholesale removal of remnant passenger trains in the mid-60s.  Those were indeed miserable times for both train crews and the handful of passengers who still rode the trains, and spelled the end for Southern's major stations in places like Birmingham, Atlanta and Knoxville.

Marv Clemons


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Discontinuances - 1966

Marv Clemons
 

A facinating, behind-the-scenes look at Graham Claytor's rationale and tactics for the wholesale removal of remnant passenger trains in the mid-60s.  Those were indeed miserable times for both train crews and the handful of passengers who still rode the trains, and spelled the end for Southern's major stations in places like Birmingham, Atlanta and Knoxville.

Marv Clemons


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Discontinuances - 1966

C J Wyatt
 

I don't have the exact date, but sometime around the time of this memo, Southern helped to finish off No. 35 from Chattanooga to Memphis, by scheduling No. 17 to arrive Chattanooga ten minutes after no. 35 departed.

Jack Wyatt

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 04:58:00 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


During the mid 1960s, the Southern made a concerted effort to eliminate as many passenger trains as possible.

While many people would assume it was mostly the work of D.W. Brosnan, his “man behind the scene” was (maybe surprisingly to some) VP Graham Claytor. Here is a two-page “personal” memo to “DWB” from “WGC”.

As with many subjects, the SRHA archives include internal correspondence, public comments and PUC correspomdemce and ruling on many passenger trains.

We look forward to organizing a three-day archives work session in August. If everyone can stay safe and well and check the SRHA web site, we look forward to getting back to work.

Ike



locked Southern Passenger Train Discontinuances - 1966

George Eichelberger
 

During the mid 1960s, the Southern made a concerted effort to eliminate as many passenger trains as possible.

While many people would assume it was mostly the work of D.W. Brosnan, his “man behind the scene” was (maybe surprisingly to some) VP Graham Claytor. Here is a two-page “personal” memo to “DWB” from “WGC”.

As with many subjects, the SRHA archives include internal correspondence, public comments and PUC correspomdemce and ruling on many passenger trains.

We look forward to organizing a three-day archives work session in August. If everyone can stay safe and well and check the SRHA web site, we look forward to getting back to work.

Ike



locked Nick Zeno please contact me off-list

Jim King
 

Trying to find Nick Zeno … my emails might be going to your spam folder.  Please contact me off-list.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train - 04.27.85

George Eichelberger
 

Mark:

We allow attachments on both the “SouthernRailway” and “ModelingThe Southern” groups. The time will probably come when we get to the limit of allowed storage and some items will have to be removed. Until then…thanks for the photo!

Ike
PS I convert anything I post to the jpeg format to reduce the image size. In many cases, I can send a higher resolution tiff image if needed.



On Jun 17, 2020, at 7:59 PM, Mark Demaline via groups.io <conductor7@...> wrote:

Not sure if the io.groups site will strip attachments or not, but attached is one scan of the
train, at Mitchell VA. on April 27,1985.

I saw & photographed him first at the Route 29 o/p at Culpepper, and chased him south to 
Red Hill VA. My notes & slides show he ran as a #141. He was making some serious noise
coming up out of those dips, and thru the S-curves @ Hickory Grove. 

~ Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stewart <jstew@...>


Hi folks
 
Neat story.  Got a picture?
 
John
 
John R Stewart
205-901-3790
 

 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Demaline via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 9:12 AM
And in late April, 1985, on a cloudy day, I chased & photographed Southern titanium ore train south of Charlottesville, with all D&H hoppers, which I'm 99% certain originated at the
mine at Tahawus NY. The mine had been closed, but they were finishing removing the stockpiled ore. I assumed it was going to Gadsden or Birmingham, possibly for processing for 
the Carpenter Tech facility in Athens, which produces specialty titanium parts for the aircraft, aerospace, and other industrial uses.  I never did find out the actual destination.  But it
was a great train to obtain some photos of.  Only having seen one of these trains on the Southern this one time, I was never sure if it was a regular, or only a one-time, move.
 
Corrections, more info, and clarifications always welcome,   Mark D
 
 

<SOU.#141.D&H ore train.3300-3122-3141.Mitchell VA.04.27.85c.Mark Demaline photo.copyrt 2020..jpg>


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train - 04.27.85

Mark Demaline
 

Not sure if the io.groups site will strip attachments or not, but attached is one scan of the
train, at Mitchell VA. on April 27,1985.

I saw & photographed him first at the Route 29 o/p at Culpepper, and chased him south to
Red Hill VA. My notes & slides show he ran as a #141. He was making some serious noise
coming up out of those dips, and thru the S-curves @ Hickory Grove.

~ Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stewart <jstew@...>


Hi folks
 
Neat story.  Got a picture?
 
John
 
John R Stewart
205-901-3790
 

 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Demaline via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 9:12 AM
And in late April, 1985, on a cloudy day, I chased & photographed Southern titanium ore train south of Charlottesville, with all D&H hoppers, which I'm 99% certain originated at the
mine at Tahawus NY. The mine had been closed, but they were finishing removing the stockpiled ore. I assumed it was going to Gadsden or Birmingham, possibly for processing for
the Carpenter Tech facility in Athens, which produces specialty titanium parts for the aircraft, aerospace, and other industrial uses.  I never did find out the actual destination.  But it
was a great train to obtain some photos of.  Only having seen one of these trains on the Southern this one time, I was never sure if it was a regular, or only a one-time, move.
 
Corrections, more info, and clarifications always welcome,   Mark D
 
 


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from Port of Mobile to Tn Coal & Iron (TCI) Birmingham, AL

John Hedrick
 

John Stewart:

It has been a long time. For instance I said the ore moved on 154. Actually, by that time the Mobile trains were renumbered 183-184. Yes, 184 was filled out to the tonnage limit with ore. I don't believe it all came back to us from loading at one time. Ore was accumulated in the yard and moved on 184 as tonnage permitted. The move in Big Reds probably coincided with the wrecked Red Rollers.

John O. Hedrick


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train(s)

John Stewart
 

Hi folks

 

Neat story.  Got a picture?

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Demaline via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 9:12 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train(s)

 

And in late April, 1985, on a cloudy day, I chased & photographed Southern titanium ore train south of Charlottesville, with all D&H hoppers, which I'm 99% certain originated at the

mine at Tahawus NY. The mine had been closed, but they were finishing removing the stockpiled ore. I assumed it was going to Gadsden or Birmingham, possibly for processing for

the Carpenter Tech facility in Athens, which produces specialty titanium parts for the aircraft, aerospace, and other industrial uses.  I never did find out the actual destination.  But it

was a great train to obtain some photos of.  Only having seen one of these trains on the Southern this one time, I was never sure if it was a regular, or only a one-time, move.

 

Corrections, more info, and clarifications always welcome,   Mark D

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Hedrick <johedrick6@...>

Mobile ore movements. I was Trainmaster at Mobile 1970-71. Best I can recall, we moved both red ore and some pellet ore at that time. At one point, some pellet  ore moved in Big Red coal hoppers weighing out long before cubing out. Ore moved on train 154. 154 left Mobile with the two engines that came in on local 69 then swapped power with 153 (4 GPs) at their meeting point. Two GPs handled 5,000 tons so 154 was filled out with ore to the tonnage limit. It would take a number days to move ore.  When at maximum tonnage, the yard engine, normally a GP-30, would shove 154 over the hill just north of the yard. All power was GP.

Reportedly, a  predecessor, who had connections in the control center, arranged to run an extra without clearing it with the superintendent. He got in serious trouble.


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train(s)

Mark Demaline
 

And in late April, 1985, on a cloudy day, I chased & photographed Southern titanium ore train south of Charlottesville, with all D&H hoppers, which I'm 99% certain originated at the
mine at Tahawus NY. The mine had been closed, but they were finishing removing the stockpiled ore. I assumed it was going to Gadsden or Birmingham, possibly for processing for
the Carpenter Tech facility in Athens, which produces specialty titanium parts for the aircraft, aerospace, and other industrial uses.  I never did find out the actual destination.  But it
was a great train to obtain some photos of.  Only having seen one of these trains on the Southern this one time, I was never sure if it was a regular, or only a one-time, move.

Corrections, more info, and clarifications always welcome,   Mark D


-----Original Message-----
From: John Hedrick <johedrick6@...>


Mobile ore movements. I was Trainmaster at Mobile 1970-71. Best I can recall, we moved both red ore and some pellet ore at that time. At one point, some pellet  ore moved in Big Red coal hoppers weighing out long before cubing out. Ore moved on train 154. 154 left Mobile with the two engines that came in on local 69 then swapped power with 153 (4 GPs) at their meeting point. Two GPs handled 5,000 tons so 154 was filled out with ore to the tonnage limit. It would take a number days to move ore.  When at maximum tonnage, the yard engine, normally a GP-30, would shove 154 over the hill just north of the yard. All power was GP.

Reportedly, a  predecessor, who had connections in the control center, arranged to run an extra without clearing it with the superintendent. He got in serious trouble.
_._,_._,_


locked NYC Heavyweight Sleepers on the Ponce DeLeon?

George Eichelberger
 

We received an interesting question from John Horvath (NYCHS) about a group of Pullman Plan 3979A (8-1-2) sleepers assigned to the Ponce DeLeon. While we continue to look through the photos in the SRHA archives, it may be useful to ask the Southern Railway.io group… Here’s more detail from John.

Within the large (379 cars) fleet of HW sleepers that the NYCS acquired in the 1948 Pullman divestiture were eight Plan 3979A (8-1-2) cars with CENT-prefix car names that were painted in the “Overland” train two-tone gray scheme. These cars had been in NY-Chicago-San Francisco service from 1946 until displaced by LW cars at the end of 1949. They retained this painting and lettering scheme until the NYCS had Pullman repaint them between 1952 and 1954 (most in 1953).

Pullman Culver assignment letters curated by Dave Staplin some years ago indicate that at least in Summer 1951 four of these NYC-owned cars painted in the “Overland” scheme operated between Cleveland and Jacksonville on the “Ponce de Leon”. Is there any chance that you have or know of a photo or photos of these NYCS-owned cars painted in the “Overland” scheme while in this or any other service? The paint scheme would be hard to miss as it was the original pre-WW2 version of two-tone gray, with the light gray used for most of the carbody and only the pier panel painted dark gray. The “Overland” train name was at the center of the letterboard in sans-serif lettering.

In addition to a photo, might there be a consist of the Ponce from Jax Term for these years that show the NYC cars?

Ike

PS There is a large amount of data in the archives on the Ponce DeLeon over the years. If anyone has any information on the Ponce, the Royal Palm, Royal Palm DeLuxe or New Royal Palm please let us know. In addition to an article, those trains would make an excellent presentation at the Cocoa Beach RPM next year. There are always NYC, Southern and FEC folks attending.

We have the full list of Pullmans Southern acquired in the divestiture if that is of interest...


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from Port of Mobile to Tn Coal & Iron (TCI) Birmingham, AL

John Stewart
 

Hi John Hedrick

 

Thanks very much for this information – interesting.

 

So, it sounds like these car loads were used to “fill out train tonnage”.  That is, if Train 156 had room for more tonnage, and  you had cars waiting, you would add them to that day’s train till it was up to load rating – is that right?

 

And

 

You say it “took several days to move ore”. 

 

Does that mean that you had the liberty of waiting for “tonnage available” on train 156 to get the ore to Birmingham?  In other words, you didn’t have to get the ore out of town as soon as all cars were loaded, is that right?

 

And

 

Do you recall how frequently ore loads were available, in other words, how often did the ore ships from Venezuela come in, more or less?

 

Thanks very much

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

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locked Re: Iron Ore trains from Port of Mobile to Tn Coal & Iron (TCI) Birmingham, AL

John Hedrick
 

Mobile ore movements. I was Trainmaster at Mobile 1970-71. Best I can recall, we moved both red ore and some pellet ore at that time. At one point, some pellet  ore moved in Big Red coal hoppers weighing out long before cubing out. Ore moved on train 154. 154 left Mobile with the two engines that came in on local 69 then swapped power with 153 (4 GPs) at their meeting point. Two GPs handled 5,000 tons so 154 was filled out with ore to the tonnage limit. It would take a number days to move ore.  When at maximum tonnage, the yard engine, normally a GP-30, would shove 154 over the hill just north of the yard. All power was GP.

Reportedly, a  predecessor, who had connections in the control center, arranged to run an extra without clearing it with the superintendent. He got in serious trouble.

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