Date   

locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Robert Hanson
 

From what I've read and heard, the TAG's relationship with the Southern was not all beer and skittles, either.

The TAG made a living by short-hauling the Southern.  It paralleled the AGS for its (TAG's) entire length and if the Southern participated in the haul at all, it got, as I said, the short haul.

Hardly a situation to endear the TAG to the Southern.

As I understand it, the TAG considered the Southern to be only the lesser of the two evils, and by what margin it might be embarrassing to say.

I was working for the Southern in Internal Audit at the time the Southern purchased the TAG (effective 1-1-71) and we sent an audit team to go over the TAG's books and general affairs.  I was not part of that team.

There was some discussion of the past relationship between the two carriers.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

Very true Bob but his loyalty remained with Southern. He had a big part in persuading Mr. Siskin to sell the profitable TAG to Southern. Some people with secondhand knowledge claim that the Siskins had a poor relationship with the L&N and would not even think of letting them have it. I have never been able to prove this so just hearsay. The TAG corporate documents were destroyed by Southern so you have to look at the TAG files of other railroads to get much. The CofG file on TAG was very helpful. If the L&N/NC&STL files on TAG still exist I have never been able to find them. 

WDS


On Jul 1, 2020, at 1:03 PM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Macon Tolleson was one of  Brosnan victims.

I don't recall if he quit or was fired, but he is one of the many capable men lost to the Southern due to Brosnan's whims.

The gory details are in the two-volume biography of DWB.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 12:41 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Warren Stephens
 

Very true Bob but his loyalty remained with Southern. He had a big part in persuading Mr. Siskin to sell the profitable TAG to Southern. Some people with secondhand knowledge claim that the Siskins had a poor relationship with the L&N and would not even think of letting them have it. I have never been able to prove this so just hearsay. The TAG corporate documents were destroyed by Southern so you have to look at the TAG files of other railroads to get much. The CofG file on TAG was very helpful. If the L&N/NC&STL files on TAG still exist I have never been able to find them. 

WDS


On Jul 1, 2020, at 1:03 PM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Macon Tolleson was one of  Brosnan victims.

I don't recall if he quit or was fired, but he is one of the many capable men lost to the Southern due to Brosnan's whims.

The gory details are in the two-volume biography of DWB.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 12:41 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Robert Hanson
 

Macon Tolleson was one of  Brosnan victims.

I don't recall if he quit or was fired, but he is one of the many capable men lost to the Southern due to Brosnan's whims.

The gory details are in the two-volume biography of DWB.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 12:41 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Warren Stephens
 

I left out one local owner. C. E. James. He built the railroad with Sage money and later bought it for himself. When James passed his son sold to the Chambliss syndicate. Mr. James also built the Chattanooga Traction Company.

WDS

On Jul 1, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Warren Stephens
 

How many pleasant Saturday mornings I have spent at Collinsville. You will of course know why but we’ll leave the rest to wonder. I still go over there at least once a year. As for the picture, sorry I can’t post it. I have amassed a sizable collection of TAG pictures and other material with hopes of publishing a TAG book. Some day I hope you can have a copy through the book. I would be happy to let anyone come by and look through these. I did let David Steinberg have copies of the diverted Pelican for his Chattanooga Terminal Station book but he has yet to find a publisher. I had hoped to self publish but as an airline employee I have my wallet clamped shut at the moment. Does anyone know a decent rail related publisher?

Warren D. Stephens


On Jun 30, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...> wrote:

Thanks Warren.  Can  you post the photo.  Sounds interesting.  My home town is Collinsville and I visited the TAG line several times in Gadsden and Leesburg.


locked Mose Siskin part 2

Warren Stephens
 

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens


locked Mose Siskin

Warren Stephens
 

Mose was on the board of directors but his brother Garrison owned the TAG. There is a document in the SRHA archives which lays out pre Southern ownership. Some stocks were registered to Garrison personally and Siskin Steel was shown as the owner of some. Same difference just a tax issue I suppose. I only had the opportunity to speed glance this file once at Kennesaw. This was during an SRHA modeling meeting. Mrs. Sally was overwhelmed with people coming in and just pulling stuff off the shelf and going through drawers. As she was visibly upset I didn’t ask for a proper copy. On one hand I believe I did right by not asking her at that time but I regret not getting a copy. Then the unpleasantness occurred and the archives were moved. I really need a copy of that file for my TAG book but am unsure how to proceed to get it. 

Warren D. Stephens 


On Jun 30, 2020, at 8:59 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote:

Didn't Mose Sisken own or run the TAG?


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities
 
Thanks Warren.  Can  you post the photo.  Sounds interesting.  My home town is Collinsville and I visited the TAG line several times in Gadsden and Leesburg.


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Rodney Shu
 

Didn't Mose Sisken own or run the TAG?


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities
 
Thanks Warren.  Can  you post the photo.  Sounds interesting.  My home town is Collinsville and I visited the TAG line several times in Gadsden and Leesburg.


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Byron Osborn
 

Thanks Warren.  Can  you post the photo.  Sounds interesting.  My home town is Collinsville and I visited the TAG line several times in Gadsden and Leesburg.


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Stephen Warner
 

Marv, When I started riding SR in '64, I used 41/42, 45/46, 17/18 regularly, along with many Oakdale turns on 28/27.  My first ride down the CS was in '69 as Mgt. Trainee.  However, I knew little of what was to come just a few years later in this "Master Plan" for the System. (I also noted the plan for IC/CGA's 9 & 10, which we jointly worked in '67 in Bham, just a pair of years ahead of this).  I didn't know how many combined trains the Washington Div. handled at that time -  these were heavy trains.  Monroe must still have been a busy place for a few hours a day then.  I often rode the four E units south from DC on my trips back to ATL that this consist describes.  Also recall the "gap" that SR/Claytor made by amputating Tenn. between Va. and Ala.  Old DWB strategy that I recall well.  Thanks. 
Stephen


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Warren Stephens
 

I was born and raised on the east side of Lookout Mountain in Chattooga County, GA. I miss it back there. Especially when I am sitting is Atlanta traffic. I hope God smiles on me and lets me go home some day. The photo I am referencing was taken 15th of March, 1955. Southern train #42 can be seen crossing Tuscaloosa Ave. which runs through the interchange trackage on the south side of the TAG yard in Gadsden, Alabama. The train is being diverted over TAG due to a derailment on the AGS at FT. Payne. Based on what we know about the interchange layout from the old SOU Rome, GA to Attalla, AL line, the train would have either had to back all the way from Atallah or it was dragged to Gadsden by another locomotive which was then cut off. Sadly any evidence of this is outside the photo. There is a lot of clutter in this photo. There is a garbage truck stopped at the highway crossing and someones laundry is on the line at the housing projects built adjacent to the TAG yard. I know people love clean roster shots and wedge shots but personally I love pictures with this kind of Norman Rockwell humanity. The clutter in no way detracts from the image, and the train is not hidden in any way. There were 15 coaches and 13 are visible in the shot. This list was in the rough handwriting of the person who owned this picture. If there are any discrepancies, it is most likely not the accuracy of his notes, but rather my inability to decipher his penmanship. Please feel free to let me know if anything is amiss. At any rate the car consist is noted below.

Warren D. Stephens

PRR Cars: 6149 baggage and mail, 9842, 55991, 2328, horse car 5810

L&N: 1508

SOU: 568 express, 6460 mail, 31 postal, 751 combine

N&W: 1660, 1644, 1022 diner

Pullman Co.: Carson Newman College, Emory & Henry College






     

On Sunday, June 28, 2020, 07:15:26 PM EDT, Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...> wrote:


I lived along the AGS in north Alabama.  I am interested in the make up of the passengers trains that used that route.  I believe the two were the Birmingham Special and the Pelican.  Can anyone help?  Thanks


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

George Eichelberger
 

Marv:

I need to check to see how large that file is? It took a long time to load which tells me it must be BIG. To help save space for attachments, give it another short while for people to download then delete the file if you can.

Ike

On Jun 30, 2020, at 9:10 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

I should mention that clicking onto the PDF will save it to your downloads folder.

Marv


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Marv Clemons
 

I should mention that clicking onto the PDF will save it to your downloads folder.

Marv


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Marv Clemons
 

Love those master consists, Ike.  Here's a copy from 1969 showing all Southern and CofG trains in the final stages of their great disappearing act.

Marv


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

George Eichelberger
 

From SRHA Archives Presidents’ File Box 662 File 11670, the consist(s) of Southern Railway train Nos. 1 and 2 as of 11-15-71.

I have to search for the slide but I think (!) I have a photo of a SP sleeper that had come through NOLA . In the early 70s, it was not uncommon for the trains to have a N&W (blue) coach.

Ike


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Tracey Green
 

So I think this is on topic, but how were the Crescent Sisters used on the Crescent? That is, how many on a single Crescent train? Did every Crescent carry one? Were they ever used on any train other than a Crescent? I have a fondness for those if for no other reason than I have a photo of me in front of Crescent Moon in Spartanburg in 1972. 


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

SouRwyFan
 
Edited

David,


Some answers to your question #1: 


From american-rails.com website 

With most historical information per Bill Haithcoat


>>Edited & removed<<



From Car Names, Numbers and Consists, Published by Robert Wayner in 1972


>>Edited & removed<<



Ike,

Understood & removed.

BR, Rahl


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

George Eichelberger
 

I realize these book pages have already been distributed by the list BUT…..

Aside from the fact SRHA would not want to see pages from books it produced and copyrighted simply copied and distributed we all owe the authors and copyright holders of any book the thanks for researching and writing the books we have by observing their ownership rights.

We do not want to see the SouthernRailway.io group have copyright problems from anywhere. Please do NOT simply scan and post copyrighted material!

Ike


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

SouRwyFan
 
Edited

David,


An answer to your question #3:

All the 1941 built equipment rode on prewar trucks the were distinctive in that the brake cylinders were mounted low on the truck frame at the inward ends.
Their were a few exceptions, where trucks were traded from car to car but the one exception was on the 841-846 they had their trucks changed at least twice after delivery before being placed on the more modern trucks they rode from the 60's forward.
The 1949 build equipment was on the more modern postwar inside swing hanger trucks.


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

SouRwyFan
 

David,


Some observations on your question #2:


As for a late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent,


The PS 56 seat coaches and diners, they didn't hold up well and were out of service by mid 60's. Budd diners would have been the norm.


The Crescent would have run regularly wit a master room-2 drawing room-tavern lounge.


Be careful with using 52-seat coach numbers as there were three different built car series which had the same window arrangement but obviously had different roofs, ends, etc.


Since there were only three 11BRM cars (Made from Sleeper-Lounge-Obs cars) they were the exception and probably rarer than say even a 14-4 sleeper.


Also, Bag-Dorm-Coach Bedford is #705.

 

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