Date   

locked Re: Silversides lettering color

George Eichelberger
 

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


On Jul 1, 2020, at 7:02 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

What were the different colors used to letter the Silversides?  (The aluminum coal gons.)  I gather the colors had meanings, either for which power company they hauled coal for or which subsidiary they were assigned to.  Thanks.


Scott Chatfield


locked Silversides lettering color

D. Scott Chatfield
 

What were the different colors used to letter the Silversides?  (The aluminum coal gons.)  I gather the colors had meanings, either for which power company they hauled coal for or which subsidiary they were assigned to.  Thanks.


Scott Chatfield


locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Robert Hanson
 

Warren, that pretty well agrees with what I've heard and read.

Siskin bought the TAG basically to give the Southern the single-finger salute.

And apparently did so successfully.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 6:19 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

Southern only began to pay the TAG any real attention after WW2. TAG traffic levels increased after the war and as the TAG's primary northern outlet from Chattanooga this miffed Southern. Because as you said the Southern could have handled anything TAG and L&N handled jointly. In the mid 50s, Southern did try and bully TAG out of business. Backfired on them in a dramatic fashion. It was this ugliness that caused Siskin to buy TAG. He was a friendly witness in court for TAG. Not because he was partisan but because he liked having two options when shipping scrap steel by rail to Republic Steel near Gadsden. Southern tried to be a bully with him and punish him over his testimony. So he bought TAG and gave them all his business. I would go into all that but it's more than a none TAG fan or Chattanooga region historian would care to hear. In the end Siskin was just old with nobody to leave his empire to, so he began to divest. Not to say that TAG didn't have obstacles to overcome to stay relevant. Things like expanding the Pigeon Mountain tunnel beyond class C. Southern was upfront with Siskin. They told him that they would be taking the TAG's bridge traffic. But TAG had begun a program to attract online industry and Southern promised Siskin they would continue. History had proven they were less than sincere and when Siskin died, they yanked up the majority of the railroad.    

Warren D. Stephens           

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 01:29:52 PM EDT, Robert Hanson via groups.io <rhanson669@...> wrote:


From what I've read and heard, the TAG's relationship with the Southern was not all beer and skittles, either.

The TAG made a living by short-hauling the Southern.  It paralleled the AGS for its (TAG's) entire length and if the Southern participated in the haul at all, it got, as I said, the short haul.

Hardly a situation to endear the TAG to the Southern.

As I understand it, the TAG considered the Southern to be only the lesser of the two evils, and by what margin it might be embarrassing to say.

I was working for the Southern in Internal Audit at the time the Southern purchased the TAG (effective 1-1-71) and we sent an audit team to go over the TAG's books and general affairs.  I was not part of that team.

There was some discussion of the past relationship between the two carriers.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

Very true Bob but his loyalty remained with Southern. He had a big part in persuading Mr. Siskin to sell the profitable TAG to Southern. Some people with secondhand knowledge claim that the Siskins had a poor relationship with the L&N and would not even think of letting them have it. I have never been able to prove this so just hearsay. The TAG corporate documents were destroyed by Southern so you have to look at the TAG files of other railroads to get much. The CofG file on TAG was very helpful. If the L&N/NC&STL files on TAG still exist I have never been able to find them. 

WDS


On Jul 1, 2020, at 1:03 PM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Macon Tolleson was one of  Brosnan victims.

I don't recall if he quit or was fired, but he is one of the many capable men lost to the Southern due to Brosnan's whims.

The gory details are in the two-volume biography of DWB.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 12:41 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Warren Stephens
 

Southern only began to pay the TAG any real attention after WW2. TAG traffic levels increased after the war and as the TAG's primary northern outlet from Chattanooga this miffed Southern. Because as you said the Southern could have handled anything TAG and L&N handled jointly. In the mid 50s, Southern did try and bully TAG out of business. Backfired on them in a dramatic fashion. It was this ugliness that caused Siskin to buy TAG. He was a friendly witness in court for TAG. Not because he was partisan but because he liked having two options when shipping scrap steel by rail to Republic Steel near Gadsden. Southern tried to be a bully with him and punish him over his testimony. So he bought TAG and gave them all his business. I would go into all that but it's more than a none TAG fan or Chattanooga region historian would care to hear. In the end Siskin was just old with nobody to leave his empire to, so he began to divest. Not to say that TAG didn't have obstacles to overcome to stay relevant. Things like expanding the Pigeon Mountain tunnel beyond class C. Southern was upfront with Siskin. They told him that they would be taking the TAG's bridge traffic. But TAG had begun a program to attract online industry and Southern promised Siskin they would continue. History had proven they were less than sincere and when Siskin died, they yanked up the majority of the railroad.    

Warren D. Stephens           

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 01:29:52 PM EDT, Robert Hanson via groups.io <rhanson669@...> wrote:


From what I've read and heard, the TAG's relationship with the Southern was not all beer and skittles, either.

The TAG made a living by short-hauling the Southern.  It paralleled the AGS for its (TAG's) entire length and if the Southern participated in the haul at all, it got, as I said, the short haul.

Hardly a situation to endear the TAG to the Southern.

As I understand it, the TAG considered the Southern to be only the lesser of the two evils, and by what margin it might be embarrassing to say.

I was working for the Southern in Internal Audit at the time the Southern purchased the TAG (effective 1-1-71) and we sent an audit team to go over the TAG's books and general affairs.  I was not part of that team.

There was some discussion of the past relationship between the two carriers.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

Very true Bob but his loyalty remained with Southern. He had a big part in persuading Mr. Siskin to sell the profitable TAG to Southern. Some people with secondhand knowledge claim that the Siskins had a poor relationship with the L&N and would not even think of letting them have it. I have never been able to prove this so just hearsay. The TAG corporate documents were destroyed by Southern so you have to look at the TAG files of other railroads to get much. The CofG file on TAG was very helpful. If the L&N/NC&STL files on TAG still exist I have never been able to find them. 

WDS


On Jul 1, 2020, at 1:03 PM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Macon Tolleson was one of  Brosnan victims.

I don't recall if he quit or was fired, but he is one of the many capable men lost to the Southern due to Brosnan's whims.

The gory details are in the two-volume biography of DWB.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 12:41 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: The Murphy Branch and Fontana Dam construction

Michael Roderick
 

Ike:

 

This is a very interesting letter to read and if you come up with more it would help answer some questions that I have.

 

Mike

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 14:27
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] The Murphy Branch and Fontana Dam construction

 



The SR Presidents' files include correspondence on the Southern's Murphy branch spanning multiple years. The attached letter from TVA to the Southern, dated March 16, 1943 proposes that the railroad temporarily close the Murphy branch past the Fontana Dam construction area. The file also includes comments from local newspaper and shippers.

The Murphy Branch certainly warrants a full article in a future TIES. If any SRHA member is interested to go to the archives for research, we could begin that effort in the next month or so.

Ike


locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Warren Stephens
 

The flea market. 

WDS


On Jul 1, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...> wrote:

Warren, thanks for the information on the TAG.  Looking forward to seeing you book someday.  Other than watching the TAG and the AGS, not sure why you would visit Collinsville.  Hope to talk to you more about the TAG someday.  

Byron Osborn


locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Byron Osborn
 

Warren, thanks for the information on the TAG.  Looking forward to seeing you book someday.  Other than watching the TAG and the AGS, not sure why you would visit Collinsville.  Hope to talk to you more about the TAG someday.  

Byron Osborn


locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Robert Hanson
 

From what I've read and heard, the TAG's relationship with the Southern was not all beer and skittles, either.

The TAG made a living by short-hauling the Southern.  It paralleled the AGS for its (TAG's) entire length and if the Southern participated in the haul at all, it got, as I said, the short haul.

Hardly a situation to endear the TAG to the Southern.

As I understand it, the TAG considered the Southern to be only the lesser of the two evils, and by what margin it might be embarrassing to say.

I was working for the Southern in Internal Audit at the time the Southern purchased the TAG (effective 1-1-71) and we sent an audit team to go over the TAG's books and general affairs.  I was not part of that team.

There was some discussion of the past relationship between the two carriers.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

Very true Bob but his loyalty remained with Southern. He had a big part in persuading Mr. Siskin to sell the profitable TAG to Southern. Some people with secondhand knowledge claim that the Siskins had a poor relationship with the L&N and would not even think of letting them have it. I have never been able to prove this so just hearsay. The TAG corporate documents were destroyed by Southern so you have to look at the TAG files of other railroads to get much. The CofG file on TAG was very helpful. If the L&N/NC&STL files on TAG still exist I have never been able to find them. 

WDS


On Jul 1, 2020, at 1:03 PM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Macon Tolleson was one of  Brosnan victims.

I don't recall if he quit or was fired, but he is one of the many capable men lost to the Southern due to Brosnan's whims.

The gory details are in the two-volume biography of DWB.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 12:41 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Warren Stephens
 

Very true Bob but his loyalty remained with Southern. He had a big part in persuading Mr. Siskin to sell the profitable TAG to Southern. Some people with secondhand knowledge claim that the Siskins had a poor relationship with the L&N and would not even think of letting them have it. I have never been able to prove this so just hearsay. The TAG corporate documents were destroyed by Southern so you have to look at the TAG files of other railroads to get much. The CofG file on TAG was very helpful. If the L&N/NC&STL files on TAG still exist I have never been able to find them. 

WDS


On Jul 1, 2020, at 1:03 PM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Macon Tolleson was one of  Brosnan victims.

I don't recall if he quit or was fired, but he is one of the many capable men lost to the Southern due to Brosnan's whims.

The gory details are in the two-volume biography of DWB.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 12:41 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Robert Hanson
 

Macon Tolleson was one of  Brosnan victims.

I don't recall if he quit or was fired, but he is one of the many capable men lost to the Southern due to Brosnan's whims.

The gory details are in the two-volume biography of DWB.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 12:41 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Mose Siskin part 2

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: Mose Siskin part 2

Warren Stephens
 

I left out one local owner. C. E. James. He built the railroad with Sage money and later bought it for himself. When James passed his son sold to the Chambliss syndicate. Mr. James also built the Chattanooga Traction Company.

WDS

On Jul 1, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@prodigy.net> wrote:

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens



locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Warren Stephens
 

How many pleasant Saturday mornings I have spent at Collinsville. You will of course know why but we’ll leave the rest to wonder. I still go over there at least once a year. As for the picture, sorry I can’t post it. I have amassed a sizable collection of TAG pictures and other material with hopes of publishing a TAG book. Some day I hope you can have a copy through the book. I would be happy to let anyone come by and look through these. I did let David Steinberg have copies of the diverted Pelican for his Chattanooga Terminal Station book but he has yet to find a publisher. I had hoped to self publish but as an airline employee I have my wallet clamped shut at the moment. Does anyone know a decent rail related publisher?

Warren D. Stephens


On Jun 30, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...> wrote:

Thanks Warren.  Can  you post the photo.  Sounds interesting.  My home town is Collinsville and I visited the TAG line several times in Gadsden and Leesburg.


locked Mose Siskin part 2

Warren Stephens
 

As for who ran the TAG, the TAG had a series of absentee owners. The investor Russell Sage, the railroad investor Newman Erb and the Coverdale syndicate. Only Siskin and earlier the Chambliss syndicate, were local. Of the last three presidents - or day to day managers- of TAG, two were former Southern executives. The last was former SOU ex. vp Macon Tollison.

Warren D. Stephens


locked Mose Siskin

Warren Stephens
 

Mose was on the board of directors but his brother Garrison owned the TAG. There is a document in the SRHA archives which lays out pre Southern ownership. Some stocks were registered to Garrison personally and Siskin Steel was shown as the owner of some. Same difference just a tax issue I suppose. I only had the opportunity to speed glance this file once at Kennesaw. This was during an SRHA modeling meeting. Mrs. Sally was overwhelmed with people coming in and just pulling stuff off the shelf and going through drawers. As she was visibly upset I didn’t ask for a proper copy. On one hand I believe I did right by not asking her at that time but I regret not getting a copy. Then the unpleasantness occurred and the archives were moved. I really need a copy of that file for my TAG book but am unsure how to proceed to get it. 

Warren D. Stephens 


On Jun 30, 2020, at 8:59 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote:

Didn't Mose Sisken own or run the TAG?


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities
 
Thanks Warren.  Can  you post the photo.  Sounds interesting.  My home town is Collinsville and I visited the TAG line several times in Gadsden and Leesburg.


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Rodney Shu
 

Didn't Mose Sisken own or run the TAG?


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities
 
Thanks Warren.  Can  you post the photo.  Sounds interesting.  My home town is Collinsville and I visited the TAG line several times in Gadsden and Leesburg.


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Byron Osborn
 

Thanks Warren.  Can  you post the photo.  Sounds interesting.  My home town is Collinsville and I visited the TAG line several times in Gadsden and Leesburg.


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Stephen Warner
 

Marv, When I started riding SR in '64, I used 41/42, 45/46, 17/18 regularly, along with many Oakdale turns on 28/27.  My first ride down the CS was in '69 as Mgt. Trainee.  However, I knew little of what was to come just a few years later in this "Master Plan" for the System. (I also noted the plan for IC/CGA's 9 & 10, which we jointly worked in '67 in Bham, just a pair of years ahead of this).  I didn't know how many combined trains the Washington Div. handled at that time -  these were heavy trains.  Monroe must still have been a busy place for a few hours a day then.  I often rode the four E units south from DC on my trips back to ATL that this consist describes.  Also recall the "gap" that SR/Claytor made by amputating Tenn. between Va. and Ala.  Old DWB strategy that I recall well.  Thanks. 
Stephen


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Warren Stephens
 

I was born and raised on the east side of Lookout Mountain in Chattooga County, GA. I miss it back there. Especially when I am sitting is Atlanta traffic. I hope God smiles on me and lets me go home some day. The photo I am referencing was taken 15th of March, 1955. Southern train #42 can be seen crossing Tuscaloosa Ave. which runs through the interchange trackage on the south side of the TAG yard in Gadsden, Alabama. The train is being diverted over TAG due to a derailment on the AGS at FT. Payne. Based on what we know about the interchange layout from the old SOU Rome, GA to Attalla, AL line, the train would have either had to back all the way from Atallah or it was dragged to Gadsden by another locomotive which was then cut off. Sadly any evidence of this is outside the photo. There is a lot of clutter in this photo. There is a garbage truck stopped at the highway crossing and someones laundry is on the line at the housing projects built adjacent to the TAG yard. I know people love clean roster shots and wedge shots but personally I love pictures with this kind of Norman Rockwell humanity. The clutter in no way detracts from the image, and the train is not hidden in any way. There were 15 coaches and 13 are visible in the shot. This list was in the rough handwriting of the person who owned this picture. If there are any discrepancies, it is most likely not the accuracy of his notes, but rather my inability to decipher his penmanship. Please feel free to let me know if anything is amiss. At any rate the car consist is noted below.

Warren D. Stephens

PRR Cars: 6149 baggage and mail, 9842, 55991, 2328, horse car 5810

L&N: 1508

SOU: 568 express, 6460 mail, 31 postal, 751 combine

N&W: 1660, 1644, 1022 diner

Pullman Co.: Carson Newman College, Emory & Henry College






     

On Sunday, June 28, 2020, 07:15:26 PM EDT, Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...> wrote:


I lived along the AGS in north Alabama.  I am interested in the make up of the passengers trains that used that route.  I believe the two were the Birmingham Special and the Pelican.  Can anyone help?  Thanks


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

George Eichelberger
 

Marv:

I need to check to see how large that file is? It took a long time to load which tells me it must be BIG. To help save space for attachments, give it another short while for people to download then delete the file if you can.

Ike

On Jun 30, 2020, at 9:10 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

I should mention that clicking onto the PDF will save it to your downloads folder.

Marv


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Marv Clemons
 

I should mention that clicking onto the PDF will save it to your downloads folder.

Marv

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