Date   

locked Re: Reply to Mark Demaline re: Southern Crescent photo - April 1, 1978

Carl Ardrey
 

Spring Break.  Here is Second No 2 in Birmingham with 14 coaches and 4 diners on 3-15-72. Slide by FEA

On 07/06/2020 8:24 AM Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


When did the kids in Atlanta make the trip to DC every year? These would have been the patrol students form the metro area school around Atlanta. 

Jason Greene 

On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:40 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:



Begin forwarded message:
From: Linda and Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Message Approval Needed - conductor7@... posted to main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Date: July 6, 2020 at 08:13:47 EDT

Very interesting picture, Mark,

It raises a number of questions with those Amtrak cars on the rear. Thank goodness you recorded the exact day you took the photo - it might help with some speculative answers.

* April 1, 1978 was a Saturday. The trains 1 and 2 that operated to/from Atlanta on Saturdays terminated/originated there. Neither train went to/from New Orleans, so the ultimate destination of the equipment in your photo was Pegram Shop and North Avenue Coach Yard.

* April was the off season, so a train originating/terminating Atlanta in those days would be small - 7 or 8 cars. There appear to be deadheading cars in the consist of the train you photographed (or a special party).

* If I had to guess I’d say the first 7 or 8 cars were in revenue service, and everything behind them was either deadheading or a special party. 

* I don’t recall Amtrak cars in 1-2’s consist on days the train originated/terminated Atlanta. Normally, if you saw an Amtrak car in the consist, the train was going to/coming from New Orleans, IIRC.

* In your picture, the cars are, in order: baggage-dorm, two coaches, sleeper-tavern car ( Crescent-series), dining car, three sleepers. One of those sleepers was an extra - not unusual if a bunch of deadheading employees were on the train. Behind the third sleeper appears to be another Crescent-series tavern car, then the Amtrak cars. It could be deadheading back to North Avenue from Hayne Shop, but I would think it would be on the rear if that was the case. 

* I can’t see enough of the first Amtrak car to tell what kind of car it is - looks like a coach, but can’t be sure. Wonder what the car behind it looked like. 

* We may never know why the second Crescent-series car was in the consist or what those Amtrak cars were doing on the rear, but it’s fun to speculate. Thanks for the photo.

—Bill 

PS: Attached is another consist from 1976. It shows the consist of 2nd no. 1 from Greensboro to Atlanta. When the train was split (i.e., ran in two sections), it was a New Orleans day. The first section would handle the thru cars - New York/Washington-New Orleans and would nominally only carry passengers getting on north of Washington or getting off south of Atlanta. The second section would carry local passengers (i.e., those getting on and getting off between Washington-Atlanta). It was always desirable to ride the second section if possible - it was less crowded and carried the tavern car. The first section could be a zoo. The dining car would be slammed and if there was a lounge car, it would likely be a coach lounge. 





On Jul 5, 2020, at 19:14, main@SouthernRailway.groups.io Notification < noreply@groups.io> wrote:

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Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Crescent Consists

Looked thru a few of my slides to locate one showing most or all of the consist, and here is one of  #1, at Duluth GA, on April 1, 1978.
There are 9 Southern cars, with what looks like at least 2 Amtrak cars on the rear.
I had also photographed #1 here two days before, on March 30th, and that train had a total of 9 cars, all of them Southern, no Amtrak.
And on one of my trips to the D.C area in -- I believe -- also 1978, there was a transit strike, and at Alexandria, a good number of peopleboarded #2 there, for the trip into D.C.  One of the classiest "commuter" trains there was, to ride into work that day!

 ~ Mark D


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>


Because there has been some recent interest in actual consists of the Southern Crescent in its glory days (1972-1979), I have consulted some of my old pocket notebooks and transcribed the consists of all the trains I rode in 1976. Turns out I made at least 30 trips on trains 1-2 that year, mostly on business. Attached is one of those consists. If there is sufficient interest, I will post more. 
On March 12-13, my wife and I rode train 2 from Atlanta to Alexandria, probably to visit my family over the weekend near Baltimore. We often boarded and detrained at Alexandria because it was near I-495, and if we could persuade someone to pick us up when #2 arrived, we would be at the family homestead before Amtrak 172, the connection to New York, left Washington. The logic was similar for catching #2 for the return to Atlanta. The consist would always be sizable leaving Atlanta on a Friday night because the northbound train was running through from New Orleans. Our return consist on Sunday night was often smaller because the train terminated in Atlanta. 
I know the attachment is hard to read. It is a PDF, so to make it more legible, click on it, open it, and enlarge it. 
—Bill Schafer




<SOU.wb Crescent.6916+3.Duluth GA.04.01.78.Mark Demalien photo.copyrt 2020.jpg>



<1976 - Aug 1-2 SOU 2nd 1 Greensboro-Atlanta.pdf>


locked Re: Southern Crescent Consists

Jason Greene
 

Thanks Bill for sharing you consists, pictures, and knowledge. 

Jason Greene 

On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Jason:

Heavyweight cars on the Southern Crescent were not common but not unknown. More common were the ex-CofG lightweights off the Nancy Hanks, City of Miami, and/or Man O’War. You’d likely see the heavyweights in service during heavy travel periods - Thanksgiving, Christmas for example. Attached are images of 2nd 1 passing through Norcross, Ga., on Thanksgiving Day, 1976. On this day, the first section was the short section and ran on time, protecting the schedule; the connecting cars from New York must have been late arriving Washington, so the New Orleans train ran as the second section. On the rear is a modernized heavyweight, which I assumed was in regular service. 

As for the two heavyweights on the rear in my March consist, there are three possible explanations - they are in regular service, they are deadheading to Hayne, they are on there for a special party. I didn’t make a note at the time, so really don’t know the answer. For modelers, I guess the message is that it’s perfectly okay to have a modernized heavyweight coach in the consist of the Southern Crescent. It most likely would be found on the front or the rear of the consist and you can make up whatever reason you want for its presence. 

—Bill

<SOU 6903 on train 2nd 1 at Norcross Ga Nov 1976 GWS photo.tiff>
<SOU train 2nd 1 at Norcross Ga. 6902 rear unit - Thanksgiving Day, Nov 25, 1976 GWS photo.tiff>
<SOU 2nd No. 1 at Norcross Ga. Thanksgiving Day Nov 1976 GWS photo.tiff>






On Jul 5, 2020, at 19:24, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

Were the heavyweight coaches dead head or active? How common would they be on the Crescent?

Jason Greene 

On Jul 5, 2020, at 5:17 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Because there has been some recent interest in actual consists of the Southern Crescent in its glory days (1972-1979), I have consulted some of my old pocket notebooks and transcribed the consists of all the trains I rode in 1976. Turns out I made at least 30 trips on trains 1-2 that year, mostly on business. Attached is one of those consists. If there is sufficient interest, I will post more. 

On March 12-13, my wife and I rode train 2 from Atlanta to Alexandria, probably to visit my family over the weekend near Baltimore. We often boarded and detrained at Alexandria because it was near I-495, and if we could persuade someone to pick us up when #2 arrived, we would be at the family homestead before Amtrak 172, the connection to New York, left Washington. The logic was similar for catching #2 for the return to Atlanta. The consist would always be sizable leaving Atlanta on a Friday night because the northbound train was running through from New Orleans. Our return consist on Sunday night was often smaller because the train terminated in Atlanta. 

I know the attachment is hard to read. It is a PDF, so to make it more legible, click on it, open it, and enlarge it. 

—Bill Schafer



<1976 - Mar. 12-13 SOU 2 Atlanta-Alexandria.pdf>


locked Re: Reply to Mark Demaline re: Southern Crescent photo - April 1, 1978

Jason Greene
 

When did the kids in Atlanta make the trip to DC every year? These would have been the patrol students form the metro area school around Atlanta. 

Jason Greene 

On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:40 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:



Begin forwarded message:

From: Linda and Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Message Approval Needed - conductor7@... posted to main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Date: July 6, 2020 at 08:13:47 EDT

Very interesting picture, Mark,

It raises a number of questions with those Amtrak cars on the rear. Thank goodness you recorded the exact day you took the photo - it might help with some speculative answers.

* April 1, 1978 was a Saturday. The trains 1 and 2 that operated to/from Atlanta on Saturdays terminated/originated there. Neither train went to/from New Orleans, so the ultimate destination of the equipment in your photo was Pegram Shop and North Avenue Coach Yard.

* April was the off season, so a train originating/terminating Atlanta in those days would be small - 7 or 8 cars. There appear to be deadheading cars in the consist of the train you photographed (or a special party).

* If I had to guess I’d say the first 7 or 8 cars were in revenue service, and everything behind them was either deadheading or a special party. 

* I don’t recall Amtrak cars in 1-2’s consist on days the train originated/terminated Atlanta. Normally, if you saw an Amtrak car in the consist, the train was going to/coming from New Orleans, IIRC.

* In your picture, the cars are, in order: baggage-dorm, two coaches, sleeper-tavern car (Crescent-series), dining car, three sleepers. One of those sleepers was an extra - not unusual if a bunch of deadheading employees were on the train. Behind the third sleeper appears to be another Crescent-series tavern car, then the Amtrak cars. It could be deadheading back to North Avenue from Hayne Shop, but I would think it would be on the rear if that was the case. 

* I can’t see enough of the first Amtrak car to tell what kind of car it is - looks like a coach, but can’t be sure. Wonder what the car behind it looked like. 

* We may never know why the second Crescent-series car was in the consist or what those Amtrak cars were doing on the rear, but it’s fun to speculate. Thanks for the photo.

—Bill 

PS: Attached is another consist from 1976. It shows the consist of 2nd no. 1 from Greensboro to Atlanta. When the train was split (i.e., ran in two sections), it was a New Orleans day. The first section would handle the thru cars - New York/Washington-New Orleans and would nominally only carry passengers getting on north of Washington or getting off south of Atlanta. The second section would carry local passengers (i.e., those getting on and getting off between Washington-Atlanta). It was always desirable to ride the second section if possible - it was less crowded and carried the tavern car. The first section could be a zoo. The dining car would be slammed and if there was a lounge car, it would likely be a coach lounge. 



On Jul 5, 2020, at 19:14, main@SouthernRailway.groups.io Notification <noreply@groups.io> wrote:

A message was sent to the group https://SouthernRailway.groups.io/g/main from conductor7@... that needs to be approved.

View this message online

Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Crescent Consists

Looked thru a few of my slides to locate one showing most or all of the consist, and here is one of  #1, at Duluth GA, on April 1, 1978.
There are 9 Southern cars, with what looks like at least 2 Amtrak cars on the rear.
I had also photographed #1 here two days before, on March 30th, and that train had a total of 9 cars, all of them Southern, no Amtrak.
And on one of my trips to the D.C area in -- I believe -- also 1978, there was a transit strike, and at Alexandria, a good number of peopleboarded #2 there, for the trip into D.C.  One of the classiest "commuter" trains there was, to ride into work that day!

 ~ Mark D


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>


Because there has been some recent interest in actual consists of the Southern Crescent in its glory days (1972-1979), I have consulted some of my old pocket notebooks and transcribed the consists of all the trains I rode in 1976. Turns out I made at least 30 trips on trains 1-2 that year, mostly on business. Attached is one of those consists. If there is sufficient interest, I will post more. 
On March 12-13, my wife and I rode train 2 from Atlanta to Alexandria, probably to visit my family over the weekend near Baltimore. We often boarded and detrained at Alexandria because it was near I-495, and if we could persuade someone to pick us up when #2 arrived, we would be at the family homestead before Amtrak 172, the connection to New York, left Washington. The logic was similar for catching #2 for the return to Atlanta. The consist would always be sizable leaving Atlanta on a Friday night because the northbound train was running through from New Orleans. Our return consist on Sunday night was often smaller because the train terminated in Atlanta. 
I know the attachment is hard to read. It is a PDF, so to make it more legible, click on it, open it, and enlarge it. 
—Bill Schafer




<SOU.wb Crescent.6916+3.Duluth GA.04.01.78.Mark Demalien photo.copyrt 2020.jpg>



<1976 - Aug 1-2 SOU 2nd 1 Greensboro-Atlanta.pdf>


locked Reply to Mark Demaline re: Southern Crescent photo - April 1, 1978

Bill Schafer
 



Begin forwarded message:

From: Linda and Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Message Approval Needed - conductor7@... posted to main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Date: July 6, 2020 at 08:13:47 EDT

Very interesting picture, Mark,

It raises a number of questions with those Amtrak cars on the rear. Thank goodness you recorded the exact day you took the photo - it might help with some speculative answers.

* April 1, 1978 was a Saturday. The trains 1 and 2 that operated to/from Atlanta on Saturdays terminated/originated there. Neither train went to/from New Orleans, so the ultimate destination of the equipment in your photo was Pegram Shop and North Avenue Coach Yard.

* April was the off season, so a train originating/terminating Atlanta in those days would be small - 7 or 8 cars. There appear to be deadheading cars in the consist of the train you photographed (or a special party).

* If I had to guess I’d say the first 7 or 8 cars were in revenue service, and everything behind them was either deadheading or a special party. 

* I don’t recall Amtrak cars in 1-2’s consist on days the train originated/terminated Atlanta. Normally, if you saw an Amtrak car in the consist, the train was going to/coming from New Orleans, IIRC.

* In your picture, the cars are, in order: baggage-dorm, two coaches, sleeper-tavern car (Crescent-series), dining car, three sleepers. One of those sleepers was an extra - not unusual if a bunch of deadheading employees were on the train. Behind the third sleeper appears to be another Crescent-series tavern car, then the Amtrak cars. It could be deadheading back to North Avenue from Hayne Shop, but I would think it would be on the rear if that was the case. 

* I can’t see enough of the first Amtrak car to tell what kind of car it is - looks like a coach, but can’t be sure. Wonder what the car behind it looked like. 

* We may never know why the second Crescent-series car was in the consist or what those Amtrak cars were doing on the rear, but it’s fun to speculate. Thanks for the photo.

—Bill 

PS: Attached is another consist from 1976. It shows the consist of 2nd no. 1 from Greensboro to Atlanta. When the train was split (i.e., ran in two sections), it was a New Orleans day. The first section would handle the thru cars - New York/Washington-New Orleans and would nominally only carry passengers getting on north of Washington or getting off south of Atlanta. The second section would carry local passengers (i.e., those getting on and getting off between Washington-Atlanta). It was always desirable to ride the second section if possible - it was less crowded and carried the tavern car. The first section could be a zoo. The dining car would be slammed and if there was a lounge car, it would likely be a coach lounge. 




On Jul 5, 2020, at 19:14, main@SouthernRailway.groups.io Notification <noreply@groups.io> wrote:

A message was sent to the group https://SouthernRailway.groups.io/g/main from conductor7@... that needs to be approved.

View this message online

Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Crescent Consists

Looked thru a few of my slides to locate one showing most or all of the consist, and here is one of  #1, at Duluth GA, on April 1, 1978.
There are 9 Southern cars, with what looks like at least 2 Amtrak cars on the rear.
I had also photographed #1 here two days before, on March 30th, and that train had a total of 9 cars, all of them Southern, no Amtrak.
And on one of my trips to the D.C area in -- I believe -- also 1978, there was a transit strike, and at Alexandria, a good number of peopleboarded #2 there, for the trip into D.C.  One of the classiest "commuter" trains there was, to ride into work that day!

 ~ Mark D


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>


Because there has been some recent interest in actual consists of the Southern Crescent in its glory days (1972-1979), I have consulted some of my old pocket notebooks and transcribed the consists of all the trains I rode in 1976. Turns out I made at least 30 trips on trains 1-2 that year, mostly on business. Attached is one of those consists. If there is sufficient interest, I will post more. 
On March 12-13, my wife and I rode train 2 from Atlanta to Alexandria, probably to visit my family over the weekend near Baltimore. We often boarded and detrained at Alexandria because it was near I-495, and if we could persuade someone to pick us up when #2 arrived, we would be at the family homestead before Amtrak 172, the connection to New York, left Washington. The logic was similar for catching #2 for the return to Atlanta. The consist would always be sizable leaving Atlanta on a Friday night because the northbound train was running through from New Orleans. Our return consist on Sunday night was often smaller because the train terminated in Atlanta. 
I know the attachment is hard to read. It is a PDF, so to make it more legible, click on it, open it, and enlarge it. 
—Bill Schafer




<SOU.wb Crescent.6916+3.Duluth GA.04.01.78.Mark Demalien photo.copyrt 2020.jpg>




locked Re: Southern Crescent Consists

Bill Schafer
 

Jason:

Heavyweight cars on the Southern Crescent were not common but not unknown. More common were the ex-CofG lightweights off the Nancy Hanks, City of Miami, and/or Man O’War. You’d likely see the heavyweights in service during heavy travel periods - Thanksgiving, Christmas for example. Attached are images of 2nd 1 passing through Norcross, Ga., on Thanksgiving Day, 1976. On this day, the first section was the short section and ran on time, protecting the schedule; the connecting cars from New York must have been late arriving Washington, so the New Orleans train ran as the second section. On the rear is a modernized heavyweight, which I assumed was in regular service. 

As for the two heavyweights on the rear in my March consist, there are three possible explanations - they are in regular service, they are deadheading to Hayne, they are on there for a special party. I didn’t make a note at the time, so really don’t know the answer. For modelers, I guess the message is that it’s perfectly okay to have a modernized heavyweight coach in the consist of the Southern Crescent. It most likely would be found on the front or the rear of the consist and you can make up whatever reason you want for its presence. 

—Bill







On Jul 5, 2020, at 19:24, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

Were the heavyweight coaches dead head or active? How common would they be on the Crescent?

Jason Greene 

On Jul 5, 2020, at 5:17 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Because there has been some recent interest in actual consists of the Southern Crescent in its glory days (1972-1979), I have consulted some of my old pocket notebooks and transcribed the consists of all the trains I rode in 1976. Turns out I made at least 30 trips on trains 1-2 that year, mostly on business. Attached is one of those consists. If there is sufficient interest, I will post more. 

On March 12-13, my wife and I rode train 2 from Atlanta to Alexandria, probably to visit my family over the weekend near Baltimore. We often boarded and detrained at Alexandria because it was near I-495, and if we could persuade someone to pick us up when #2 arrived, we would be at the family homestead before Amtrak 172, the connection to New York, left Washington. The logic was similar for catching #2 for the return to Atlanta. The consist would always be sizable leaving Atlanta on a Friday night because the northbound train was running through from New Orleans. Our return consist on Sunday night was often smaller because the train terminated in Atlanta. 

I know the attachment is hard to read. It is a PDF, so to make it more legible, click on it, open it, and enlarge it. 

—Bill Schafer



<1976 - Mar. 12-13 SOU 2 Atlanta-Alexandria.pdf>


locked Re: Southern Crescent Consists

Mark Demaline
 

Looked thru a few of my slides to locate one showing most or all of the consist, and here is one of  #1, at Duluth GA, on April 1, 1978.
There are 9 Southern cars, with what looks like at least 2 Amtrak cars on the rear.

I had also photographed #1 here two days before, on March 30th, and that train had a total of 9 cars, all of them Southern, no Amtrak.

And on one of my trips to the D.C area in -- I believe -- also 1978, there was a transit strike, and at Alexandria, a good number of people
boarded #2 there, for the trip into D.C.  One of the classiest "commuter" trains there was, to ride into work that day!

 ~ Mark D


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>


Because there has been some recent interest in actual consists of the Southern Crescent in its glory days (1972-1979), I have consulted some of my old pocket notebooks and transcribed the consists of all the trains I rode in 1976. Turns out I made at least 30 trips on trains 1-2 that year, mostly on business. Attached is one of those consists. If there is sufficient interest, I will post more. 

On March 12-13, my wife and I rode train 2 from Atlanta to Alexandria, probably to visit my family over the weekend near Baltimore. We often boarded and detrained at Alexandria because it was near I-495, and if we could persuade someone to pick us up when #2 arrived, we would be at the family homestead before Amtrak 172, the connection to New York, left Washington. The logic was similar for catching #2 for the return to Atlanta. The consist would always be sizable leaving Atlanta on a Friday night because the northbound train was running through from New Orleans. Our return consist on Sunday night was often smaller because the train terminated in Atlanta. 

I know the attachment is hard to read. It is a PDF, so to make it more legible, click on it, open it, and enlarge it. 

—Bill Schafer



_._,_._,_



locked Re: Southern Crescent Consists

Jason Greene
 

Were the heavyweight coaches dead head or active? How common would they be on the Crescent?

Jason Greene 

On Jul 5, 2020, at 5:17 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Because there has been some recent interest in actual consists of the Southern Crescent in its glory days (1972-1979), I have consulted some of my old pocket notebooks and transcribed the consists of all the trains I rode in 1976. Turns out I made at least 30 trips on trains 1-2 that year, mostly on business. Attached is one of those consists. If there is sufficient interest, I will post more. 

On March 12-13, my wife and I rode train 2 from Atlanta to Alexandria, probably to visit my family over the weekend near Baltimore. We often boarded and detrained at Alexandria because it was near I-495, and if we could persuade someone to pick us up when #2 arrived, we would be at the family homestead before Amtrak 172, the connection to New York, left Washington. The logic was similar for catching #2 for the return to Atlanta. The consist would always be sizable leaving Atlanta on a Friday night because the northbound train was running through from New Orleans. Our return consist on Sunday night was often smaller because the train terminated in Atlanta. 

I know the attachment is hard to read. It is a PDF, so to make it more legible, click on it, open it, and enlarge it. 

—Bill Schafer



<1976 - Mar. 12-13 SOU 2 Atlanta-Alexandria.pdf>


locked Southern Crescent Consists

Bill Schafer
 

Because there has been some recent interest in actual consists of the Southern Crescent in its glory days (1972-1979), I have consulted some of my old pocket notebooks and transcribed the consists of all the trains I rode in 1976. Turns out I made at least 30 trips on trains 1-2 that year, mostly on business. Attached is one of those consists. If there is sufficient interest, I will post more. 

On March 12-13, my wife and I rode train 2 from Atlanta to Alexandria, probably to visit my family over the weekend near Baltimore. We often boarded and detrained at Alexandria because it was near I-495, and if we could persuade someone to pick us up when #2 arrived, we would be at the family homestead before Amtrak 172, the connection to New York, left Washington. The logic was similar for catching #2 for the return to Atlanta. The consist would always be sizable leaving Atlanta on a Friday night because the northbound train was running through from New Orleans. Our return consist on Sunday night was often smaller because the train terminated in Atlanta. 

I know the attachment is hard to read. It is a PDF, so to make it more legible, click on it, open it, and enlarge it. 

—Bill Schafer




locked Future HO resin kits -- please reply

Jim King
 

I have 3 new HO resin kits in the works:

  1. Southern/original NS 12-post PS 5277 single door boxcar – no waffles.  Southern and the original NS were the only roads to order a 12-post 5277 design from Pullman starting in 1971 (this configuration has never been produced in HO).  Southern has thousands of these that ran well into the new NS era.
  2. Same as above but with waffles.
  3. NS Trinity “Dolly Parton” Aluminum coal gon.

 

See attached low-rez photos.  Please reply to this email OFF-LIST with a quantity for each item you want to purchase (even if zero … I’m trying to gauge market demand) when available.  Target delivery for the non-waffle box is later this year.  The Dolly Parton will be early/middle next year.  The waffle version of the box will follow the gon.  Target prices are in the $65-range including trucks, couplers and decals.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


locked Re: Silversides lettering color

George Eichelberger
 

Before the New Car Program (NCP) system, the Southern issued “Specifications” for new rolling stock. The Southern Freight Car Diagram book (published by SRHA) shows “100-Ton 47’-8” Aluminum Gondola Series 1000-1749” incorrectly as “Program F-145”. That is an easy error to make because both the Specifications AND the drawing card list (index) used an “F-“ prefix. (Only a few copies are still available in the Grab.)

The “Silversides” were built under Specification F-188 (issued April 8, 1959) with Card List F-145. That is correct except that at some point in discussions with the carbuilders, P-S was eventually selected, the basic design of the cars changed from all-steel to aluminum body cars. With that change, the “Painting” section of the spec. became obsolete. (As issued, Specification F-188, pages 4 and 7 are attached.) (Spec 125 paint was Southern Freight Car Brown, never used on a Silversides.)

Changes between specs and as-delivered was not uncommon. The Southern spec documentation almost always included the invitation for carbuilders to propose alternate materials, designs or specialties. The format of F-188 is slightly different from the standard Southern form. That suggests the published spec was written, probably by P-S, and submitted to the railroad in response to an “RFI” or as an unsolicited proposal. At some point in the process, Alcoa Aluminum Co. entered the picture and the design changed. (Silversides were covered in a TIES article long ago. Maybe someone can tell us which issue.)

As was typical after the wood and steel underframe era, Southern stencil drawings did not specify paint or stencil colors. SF-21023 for the Silversides is attached.

Most of the Southern freight and passenger car “F” and “P" specifications beginning with the wood and steel underframe cars are in the SRHA archives and have been scanned. Freight car drawing lists have been scanned, passenger car drawing indexes are in progress. New Car Program files are being organized and scanned as time permits. If there is any interest, they could be published individually or as sets.

Ike






On Jul 2, 2020, at 10:37 PM, Dick Fisher <Gladhand1@...> wrote:

They were all built on one order in 1960 before the NCP file system.

Dick

On 7/1/2020 9:34 PM, mike turner wrote:
Given that the car vendors built (painted) exactly what SOU specified,
I would suggest a quick scan through the NCP folder for an order of
Silversides that had varying colors.

While it's not certain there will be a justification or reason in the
file, there is a pretty good chance some letter or note will give a
clue since something like that would normally pass through purchasing.







locked Re: Silversides lettering color

Dick Fisher
 

They were all built on one order in 1960 before the NCP file system.

Dick

On 7/1/2020 9:34 PM, mike turner wrote:
Given that the car vendors built (painted) exactly what SOU specified,
I would suggest a quick scan through the NCP folder for an order of
Silversides that had varying colors.

While it's not certain there will be a justification or reason in the
file, there is a pretty good chance some letter or note will give a
clue since something like that would normally pass through purchasing.


locked Re: Silversides lettering color

George Eichelberger
 

Here is a list of color Silversides photos I took over the years. If there is a “pattern” in them, it is that Silversides were delivered with Red lettering in 1960. Green lettering on (1973?) modified cars.

1022 at B’ham 2-8-84, blt 2-60, reinforced for rotary dump svc (probably) 5-73 at Knoxville - green lettering
1067 at Asheville 7-22-89. original blt date is not readable, lettering is red, in poor condition and looks to be original
1106 at B’ham, Norris Yd. 4-6-86 car reweighed, dim data restenciled, lettering is red, blt 2-60
1125 at Asheville 10-23-73, car modified and re-stenciled green, blt 2-60
1181 at B’ham 2-8-84, modified lettering, green lettering (looks original incl ACI label) blt 2-60
1265 at Asheville 7-22-89, not modified, red lettering (poor condition, looks original w/ACI label), dim data had been changed new inspection label recently added. blt 2-60
1351 at B’ham, unmodified, red lettering in poor condition, looks original w/ACI label, new inspection stencil recently added, blt 3-60
Note first “!” in car’s road number on side is completely obliterated, reads “351”
1363 at B’ham 10-1-82, car not modified, red lettering in poor condition, looks original w/ACI label, new inspection stencil recently added, blt 3-60
1375 at B’ham 4-6-86, car not modified, red lettering in poor condition, looks original w/ACI label, new inspection stencil recently added, dim data re-stenciled 3-86, blt 3-60
1377 at B’ham, car modified (4-79?), (dark) green lettering, blt 3-60
1430 at B’ham 2-8-84, car not modified, red lettering in poor condition, looks original w/ACI label, new inspection stencil recently added, blt 3-60
1539 at Asheville 10-23-73, modified 5-73, dark green or black lettering, blt 3-60
1656 at Birmingham 9-30-82, not modified, red lettering looks original, blt 3-60
1685 at B’ham 10-1-82, not modified, red lettering looks original, blt 4-60
1709 at Howells in Atlanta 10-28-83, not modified, red lettering, blt 3-60 (Note: car is not in unit train)

I have many more color photos of covered hoppers. Most are black or green lettering except Big Johns are either green or red. Nothing else in red may indicate that was not a “standard” color?

Ike


locked Re: Silversides lettering color

Dick Fisher
 

I agree. I always thought the color was whatever was standard at the time they were painted..

Dick

On 7/2/2020 8:54 AM, Bill Schafer wrote:
I have no idea why the gray 70 ton hoppers were painted that way, but I remember seeing them occasionally in Lamberts Point mixed in with black N&W hoppers in the 1980s. 

As for the Silversides, I’m like Jack Wyatt - I too am curious about the real answer. My impression over the years, which may be just wild speculation, is that Mr. Brosnan did everything he could to get rid of the color green on the Southern . Diesels traded green for black in 1958. The first airplane - N153SR, nicknamed the Southwind, was painted red and white with gold stripes when delivered around 1963. The Agribusiness bus was painted red and silver. And the Silversides, Big Johns, etc., were lettered with red-orange characters. All during Brosnan’s watch as either executive VP-operations or president. Once Mr. Claytor became president, the red on the plane got replaced by green; ditto (I think, IIRC) for the Agribusiness bus before it was retired. And it was during Claytor’s administration that I noticed the Silversides and Big Johns getting green characters instead of red-orange, so I just chalked it up to a trend to return to green, culminating with the E8s in 1972. 

If there is a more technical explanation, I’d be delighted to hear of it. 

—Bill

On Jul 1, 2020, at 22:54, Robert Graham <rgraham2@...> wrote:

He probably is referring to one of these cars; SOU (C of  G) HT 74338 I shot at Linwood NC April 19 1986.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "James"
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday July 1 2020 10:23:24PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Silversides lettering color

George,

You sparked my interest with the grey 70ton hoppers with black lettering.  Might you provide some pictures fo these?

On Jul 1, 2020, at 20:13, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC



<SOU ht 74338  BobG  035.jpg>


Virus-free. www.avg.com


locked Re: Silversides lettering color

Bill Schafer
 

I have no idea why the gray 70 ton hoppers were painted that way, but I remember seeing them occasionally in Lamberts Point mixed in with black N&W hoppers in the 1980s. 

As for the Silversides, I’m like Jack Wyatt - I too am curious about the real answer. My impression over the years, which may be just wild speculation, is that Mr. Brosnan did everything he could to get rid of the color green on the Southern . Diesels traded green for black in 1958. The first airplane - N153SR, nicknamed the Southwind, was painted red and white with gold stripes when delivered around 1963. The Agribusiness bus was painted red and silver. And the Silversides, Big Johns, etc., were lettered with red-orange characters. All during Brosnan’s watch as either executive VP-operations or president. Once Mr. Claytor became president, the red on the plane got replaced by green; ditto (I think, IIRC) for the Agribusiness bus before it was retired. And it was during Claytor’s administration that I noticed the Silversides and Big Johns getting green characters instead of red-orange, so I just chalked it up to a trend to return to green, culminating with the E8s in 1972. 

If there is a more technical explanation, I’d be delighted to hear of it. 

—Bill

On Jul 1, 2020, at 22:54, Robert Graham <rgraham2@...> wrote:

He probably is referring to one of these cars; SOU (C of  G) HT 74338 I shot at Linwood NC April 19 1986.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "James"
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday July 1 2020 10:23:24PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Silversides lettering color

George,

You sparked my interest with the grey 70ton hoppers with black lettering.  Might you provide some pictures fo these?

On Jul 1, 2020, at 20:13, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC



<SOU ht 74338  BobG  035.jpg>


locked Re: Silversides lettering color

Robert Graham
 

He probably is referring to one of these cars; SOU (C of  G) HT 74338 I shot at Linwood NC April 19 1986.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "James"
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday July 1 2020 10:23:24PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Silversides lettering color

George,

You sparked my interest with the grey 70ton hoppers with black lettering.  Might you provide some pictures fo these?

On Jul 1, 2020, at 20:13, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




locked Re: Silversides lettering color

George Eichelberger
 

Mike:

I’ve scanned maybe 4,000 hopper, cov hopper and Silversides drawings and memos…..nothing!

I expect many of the Silversides stencil color changes occurred when the cars were modified with steel replacement parts.
Many of the covered hopper orders left the carbuilders with Roman lettering or were rebuilt (70 to 100T) and were repainted. I guarantee no 70T open hopper specs said “grey paint”.

One problem with lettering, stencil drawings always say the same thing…..lettering as per specifications….but the specs never seem to include anything about lettering colors.

Ike

On Jul 1, 2020, at 9:34 PM, mike turner <michaellturner@gmail.com> wrote:

Given that the car vendors built (painted) exactly what SOU specified,
I would suggest a quick scan through the NCP folder for an order of
Silversides that had varying colors.

While it's not certain there will be a justification or reason in the
file, there is a pretty good chance some letter or note will give a
clue since something like that would normally pass through purchasing.


locked Re: Silversides lettering color

mike turner
 

Given that the car vendors built (painted) exactly what SOU specified,
I would suggest a quick scan through the NCP folder for an order of
Silversides that had varying colors.

While it's not certain there will be a justification or reason in the
file, there is a pretty good chance some letter or note will give a
clue since something like that would normally pass through purchasing.


locked Re: Silversides lettering color

George Eichelberger
 

Here are two. Only Sou 74505 is properly IDd. I took the photo at Andover, VA 10-2-87. Another photo, Sou 74285, may (!!) have faded green lettering

Ike




On Jul 1, 2020, at 8:36 PM, James <nsc39dash8@...> wrote:

George,

You sparked my interest with the grey 70ton hoppers with black lettering.  Might you provide some pictures fo these?

On Jul 1, 2020, at 20:13, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC





locked Re: Silversides lettering color

C J Wyatt
 

I always assumed that it was a search for a lettering color which would provide contrast on the TV screens in spite of any overcoating's of dust and grime.

Sorry to speculate, but after assuming this answer for the majority of my life, I am curious about the answer. 

Jack Wyatt

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 08:27:05 PM EDT, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@gmail.com> wrote:






I would add the Magor hoppers as well.  

Curt Fortenberry


locked Re: Silversides lettering color

George Eichelberger
 

Because the covered hopper were first purchased for different commodities, I have always assumed that maybe the stencil colors on them were to show what they were supposed to carry. The problem with that theory is that stencil colors vary within the same car orders.

Ike



On Jul 1, 2020, at 8:24 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


I would add the Magor hoppers as well.  

Curt Fortenberry 

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