Date   

locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

William L Vanderburg
 

Barber Junction station had two waiting rooms, an agents office in the corner below the tower, and a baggage/freight room.  The white waiting room was separated from the agent by an open slat wall with a window while the colored waiting room was separated by a solid wall with a window.  Both waiting rooms faced a rail line be cause the station sat at a diamond. 

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:08 PM rwbrv4 via groups.io <dccinstallssales=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:


That's the way Lexington SC was.  I spent my early years in that station.

Rick Bell










-----Original Message-----


From: David Payne via groups.io <davidcofga=aol.com@groups.io>


To: tarumph@...; main@SouthernRailway.groups.io


Sent: Fri, Sep 4, 2020 5:37 pm


Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946



















 






Not always the case.  Many times a station had both "White" and "Colored" waiting rooms adjacent to each other on one end of the building with the "Colored" to the rear and the "White" to trackside.  The agent's office would have windows to both waiting rooms to conduct business.






David Payne






Ga






 






 








In a message dated 9/4/2020 2:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tarumph@... writes:



 
















The typical small stations on all of the railroads of in the south were laid out in virtually the same way. Starting at one end of the station, there is the white waiting room. Next is the agent's/operator's office, with ticket windows on both sides. Next is the colored waiting room, and then the baggage/freight room. Most times there were no restrooms in the station, just an out house (which may have been restricted to white patrons only, I'm not sure).

After these legalized outrages were removed, the former colored waiting rooms were used for storage, often by the signal department.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC




















































locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

rwbrv4
 

That's the way Lexington SC was.  I spent my early years in that station.
Rick Bell


-----Original Message-----
From: David Payne via groups.io <davidcofga@...>
To: tarumph@...; main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Sep 4, 2020 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 
Not always the case.  Many times a station had both "White" and "Colored" waiting rooms adjacent to each other on one end of the building with the "Colored" to the rear and the "White" to trackside.  The agent's office would have windows to both waiting rooms to conduct business.
David Payne
Ga
 
 
In a message dated 9/4/2020 2:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tarumph@... writes:
 
The typical small stations on all of the railroads of in the south were laid out in virtually the same way. Starting at one end of the station, there is the white waiting room. Next is the agent's/operator's office, with ticket windows on both sides. Next is the colored waiting room, and then the baggage/freight room. Most times there were no restrooms in the station, just an out house (which may have been restricted to white patrons only, I'm not sure).

After these legalized outrages were removed, the former colored waiting rooms were used for storage, often by the signal department.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

Carl Ardrey
 

More on this topic.  Conductors on the Charleston Division are warned not to move "colored" passengers out of air conditioned cars once they have been seated especially non air conditioned (NAC) cars.


locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

David Payne
 

 
Not always the case.  Many times a station had both "White" and "Colored" waiting rooms adjacent to each other on one end of the building with the "Colored" to the rear and the "White" to trackside.  The agent's office would have windows to both waiting rooms to conduct business.
David Payne
Ga
 
 

In a message dated 9/4/2020 2:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tarumph@... writes:
 
The typical small stations on all of the railroads of in the south were laid out in virtually the same way. Starting at one end of the station, there is the white waiting room. Next is the agent's/operator's office, with ticket windows on both sides. Next is the colored waiting room, and then the baggage/freight room. Most times there were no restrooms in the station, just an out house (which may have been restricted to white patrons only, I'm not sure).

After these legalized outrages were removed, the former colored waiting rooms were used for storage, often by the signal department.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

George Eichelberger
 

John:

There is an entire “story” about this. My interest is simply in “straight down the middle” history and I’d like to see more published on this topic published in a straightforward way

There are a group of, usually handwritten, notes in the archives where Conductors (who would be “white” in the era we are talking about) wrote SR management about how they thought it was wrong for them, to have to go through a train, find “colored” passengers and tell them they had to move to a segregated car as the train approached a State line where Jim Crow laws were in effect. Their concern was simply they were “good customers” deserving better treatment, not that they were making a point.

The last place where this occurred (to my limited knowledge) was on trains going from NC and DC into VA.

Ike

PS I have received a remarkable number of inquiries over the years where people, usually writing books, asked about segregated Pullman facilities, usually to describe how blacks could not ride in them. I heard everything from disbelief to outright consternation when I wrote that Pullmans were NOT segregated. Anyone who could pay for a ticket could book whatever Pullman space they wanted.


On Sep 4, 2020, at 11:32 AM, John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:

HI Ike
 
Sad but interesting.  
 
I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money
 
John
 
John R Stewart
205-901-3790
 
<image001.jpg>
 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946
 
Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)
 
The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.
 
Ike
 
<image002.jpg>



locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

Tim
 

The typical small stations on all of the railroads of in the south were laid out in virtually the same way. Starting at one end of the station, there is the white waiting room. Next is the agent's/operator's office, with ticket windows on both sides. Next is the colored waiting room, and then the baggage/freight room. Most times there were no restrooms in the station, just an out house (which may have been restricted to white patrons only, I'm not sure).

After these legalized outrages were removed, the former colored waiting rooms were used for storage, often by the signal department.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

Warren Stephens
 

It is important to remember that Southern didn't just subject passengers to Jim Crow but also employees of color. Vintage Southern employee timetables tell us that employees of color were treated at different "colored" hospitals and were carried to said hospital by a different "colored" ambulance service. I don't recall such segregated care indicated in vintage CofG or TA&G employees timetables but I am sure it happened. If memory serves similar segregated medical care was indicated in Georgia Railroad employee timetables. I will not go to the trouble of typing them out but rule 1193 and 1194 in the TA&G rule book - pertaining to passenger conductors - are blatantly Jim Crow. Willingly followed or dutifully followed, Jim Crow was an ugly thing. 

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TA&G fan

On Friday, September 4, 2020, 01:49:26 PM EDT, William L Vanderburg <army30th@...> wrote:


Anyone who’s ever been inside a Jim Crow coach knows the segregated restrooms are slightly the size of a porta potty. 

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:32 AM John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:

HI Ike

 

Sad but interesting. 

 

I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

 

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

 

Ike

 










locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

Kevin Centers
 

It should be noted that in the case of the 1941 cars that Pullman built for the Southerner and Tennessean, the segregated section of the car contained the larger restrooms with lounge space. They are clearly marked that way on the floor plan. The smaller restrooms were in the unsegregated area. 

On Sep 4, 2020, at 1:49 PM, William L Vanderburg <Army30th@...> wrote:


Anyone who’s ever been inside a Jim Crow coach knows the segregated restrooms are slightly the size of a porta potty. 

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:32 AM John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:

HI Ike

 

Sad but interesting. 

 

I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

<image001.jpg>

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

 

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

 

Ike

 

<image002.jpg>










locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

William L Vanderburg
 

Anyone who’s ever been inside a Jim Crow coach knows the segregated restrooms are slightly the size of a porta potty. 

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:32 AM John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:

HI Ike

 

Sad but interesting. 

 

I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

 

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

 

Ike

 










locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

John Stewart
 

HI Ike

 

Sad but interesting. 

 

I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

 

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

 

Ike

 


locked Re: Southern segregation question in 1946

Doug Alexander
 

I've always wondered if someone at Southern was pouring on the irony when they named the Southerner's three Jim Crow coaches "South Carolina" seeing is that's where secession and ultimately the War started?

Doug A
Atlanta.

--
Doug Alexander
Atlanta


locked Southern segregation question in 1946

George Eichelberger
 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

Ike


locked Bagged cement for Fontana

Jim King
 

Bagged cement:  the Canton conductor I rode with during my 1977-81 college years told me he was working in Canton while Fontana Dam was being built (he was also assigned to Camp LeJuene RR for a short spell during the War).  He commented that 50-car trains of bagged cement in boxcars plus other cars used to fill out the train regularly came thru Canton as extras.  What made these special is that he saw light 2-8-2s (4500-class) on the head end quite often, a rarity on the branch, though allowed by timetable as far as Addie where they were turned on the wye and headed “home”.

 

He said cars bound for Fontana were stored everywhere between Canton and Bryson and really jammed up Canton yard.  Trains were forwarded to Bryson for staging and fed to the dam site as needed.  On top of all the dam traffic, imagine how else the line must have looked in view of the letter Ike just posted re: cars coming from the L&N?  Add in a passenger train each day and, likely, extra traffic due to the wartime effort.  Would really have been a busy era but, following the War and dam construction, it died off quickly.  The pax trains were gone by late 1948.  All of the extra moments related to those 4-ish years were also gone.  Only Graham County RR remained as a connection (L&N is not being counted as an on-line connection, just an interchange at the end).

 

Re: L&N’s interchanging in Murphy, Jim Wrinn and I made a couple trips to chase the L&N from Mineral Bluff to Murphy and back around 1979-80.  The trains had just empty wood racks headed to Culberson and Murphy wood yards and hauled 10-ish loads of wood back from Murphy.  Train, by then, ran on Monday only.  On 1 trip, the L&N dropped off a single 70-ton hopper in the Southern yard.  Without going back to that slide, I don’t remember if loaded or MT (I’ll check the springs).  If loaded, would it have been a commodity from Copper Hill bound for Canton?

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


locked Re: Murphy Branch, Fontana Dam and Champion Paper

Robert Graham
 

David, Ike and Jim King:

I think the salient point is being overlooked in this particular discussion. Go back and read the comments from the memorandum filed by the Champion Paper & Fibre Co Canton NC mill traffic manager dated Sept 9 1941. In his 4th bullet point, Mr. Ratliff said, "there is an extremely heavy movement of wood from L&N stations to Canton via Murphy NC....". So, whether or not Jim King, "two well known S.E. rail experts", David or I agree on details of car supply or not, the consignee's shipping manager indicated to SR president E.E.Norris that he had concerns over increased shipping rate expenditures on this traffic off L&N, among other also raised concerns. So, whether or not any employees or observers saw or were aware of pulpwood moving off the L&N through Murphy to Champion Paper at Canton NC, it undoubtedly was occurring in 1941. This is 79 years ago, and things were much different, at least significantly until rate deregulation began in the early 1960's. 

David's points are well-taken, but my observation is only to the reality that car supply has always been an issue for shippers, and there have been several means by which RR's solved, or dealt with them. It is neither an era-specific nor era-applicable observation; it is both, as the problems still exist to this day. They are dealt with differently now rather than then, but are still there. And, as a retired plant superintendent and material service manager for a Fortune 500 aluminum container manufacturer who was both a rail shipper as well as a consignee, I have dealt with both Sou Ry and later NS Corp in the business environment on these issues as well as within my rail photography avocation on my own time, what little of that time I had available. Being born a few years after Mr. Ratliff's memo to Mr. Norris was issued, I was not there, obviously, but did see and record via photograph and notes plenty since I made my first photographs in 1960. 

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "David Payne via groups.io"
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday September 2 2020 9:34:26PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Murphy Branch, Fontana Dam and Champion Paper

 
Let me just say that I think Bob's comment is "era specific" and not "era applicable."  Too many times I've seen similar comments which, while true enough for a certain period, didn't necessarily "hold water" to other times.  Let's not forget that what we may have seen didn't always apply.
 
For instance, if I may, in the late fifties and early sixties and perhaps into the seventies, woodracks from the West Point Route railroads (A&WP and WofA) and perhaps some "wandering" GARR cars would be interchanged at Newnan and taken to the paper mill at Krannert (Rome).  Similarly, those mtys would be returned for interchange at Newnan.  In the late seventies and early eighties (iirc) a woodyard south of Newnan was shipping to Krannert.  Apparently, as I have no confirmation, the Family Lines/Seaboard System/CSX would not provide woodracks and mty Southern woodracks were interchanged at Newnan, hauled south a couple of miles, loaded and returned, to be hauled to Krannert.
 
Many of you have heard my drum beat before, but you can't assume that what happened in .... (fill in the year) was the way it was in ... (again, fill in the year).  Specifics of operations seem to be SPECIFIC to a particular period.
 
David Payne
Kennesaw (or at least close by)
 
 


locked Re: Murphy Branch, Fontana Dam and Champion Paper

David Payne
 

 
Let me just say that I think Bob's comment is "era specific" and not "era applicable."  Too many times I've seen similar comments which, while true enough for a certain period, didn't necessarily "hold water" to other times.  Let's not forget that what we may have seen didn't always apply.
 
For instance, if I may, in the late fifties and early sixties and perhaps into the seventies, woodracks from the West Point Route railroads (A&WP and WofA) and perhaps some "wandering" GARR cars would be interchanged at Newnan and taken to the paper mill at Krannert (Rome).  Similarly, those mtys would be returned for interchange at Newnan.  In the late seventies and early eighties (iirc) a woodyard south of Newnan was shipping to Krannert.  Apparently, as I have no confirmation, the Family Lines/Seaboard System/CSX would not provide woodracks and mty Southern woodracks were interchanged at Newnan, hauled south a couple of miles, loaded and returned, to be hauled to Krannert.
 
Many of you have heard my drum beat before, but you can't assume that what happened in .... (fill in the year) was the way it was in ... (again, fill in the year).  Specifics of operations seem to be SPECIFIC to a particular period.
 
David Payne
Kennesaw (or at least close by)
 
 


locked Re: Murphy Branch, Fontana Dam and Champion Paper

George Eichelberger
 

I checked with two well known SE rail experts yesterday. Neither was aware of wood traffic off the L&N to Canton. My second question was about empty car billing for off line loads. That didn’t ring any bells but as most freight cars in the 40 and 50s were essentially “free running” (a more modern term), sending wood racks off the Southern would have been rather common.

I read there were something like 25,000 box car loads of bagged cement (pre covered hopper days) delivered to the Fontana Dam project. I’d like to find more info on what passed between the Sou and L&N at Murphy.

There is an interesting (and old) file about how the L&N stopped the Southern’s access to the Copper Hill area by extending their line into Murphy. (Just one of many things that need to be researched and written about.)

Ike



On Sep 2, 2020, at 12:51 AM, Robert Graham <rgraham2@...> wrote:

Jim,

I would not necessarily make that assumption that the originating road would use their owned cars. I have seen SOU (and other RR's LP cars, too) stenciled for assigned loading to specific paper mills, sometimes off-line. The originating road would not only get the freight billing provided by the appropriate tariff, but also the per diem charge for the car, and the terminating RR (SOU in this case) would get a consistent traffic and revenue stream. It would make sense for SOU to provide assigned cars for wood loading from wood sources shipping to Canton, if it encouraged more traffic coming their way.

Bob Graham 

-----------------------------------------

From: "Jim King" 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday September 1 2020 11:25:13AM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Murphy Branch, Fontana Dam and Champion Paper

Interesting to note the substantial amount of wood interchanged from L&N at Murphy.  In all of the Canton mill pix I’ve seen (or remember), none have shown L&N wood racks.  I “assume” L&N (and subsidiary) cars were used and not SOU cars since the wood originated on the L&N.
 
Gerry Ledford has finished the 4th and 5th books in his joint series with Ron Sullivan pertaining to logging operations in western NC.  He/they have extensive coverage on loggers that lasted into the 40s, including the Graham County, C&TS and the Andrews-Hayesville operation mentioned in the letter.  Well worth buying the 5-book set (available at local bookstores in this region).
 
Thanks for posting, Ike.  Always good to learn more about “the Murphy”.
 
Jim King
 


locked Re: Murphy Branch, Fontana Dam and Champion Paper

Robert Graham
 

Jim,

I would not necessarily make that assumption that the originating road would use their owned cars. I have seen SOU (and other RR's LP cars, too) stenciled for assigned loading to specific paper mills, sometimes off-line. The originating road would not only get the freight billing provided by the appropriate tariff, but also the per diem charge for the car, and the terminating RR (SOU in this case) would get a consistent traffic and revenue stream. It would make sense for SOU to provide assigned cars for wood loading from wood sources shipping to Canton, if it encouraged more traffic coming their way.

Bob Graham 

-----------------------------------------

From: "Jim King"
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday September 1 2020 11:25:13AM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Murphy Branch, Fontana Dam and Champion Paper

Interesting to note the substantial amount of wood interchanged from L&N at Murphy.  In all of the Canton mill pix I’ve seen (or remember), none have shown L&N wood racks.  I “assume” L&N (and subsidiary) cars were used and not SOU cars since the wood originated on the L&N.

 

Gerry Ledford has finished the 4th and 5th books in his joint series with Ron Sullivan pertaining to logging operations in western NC.  He/they have extensive coverage on loggers that lasted into the 40s, including the Graham County, C&TS and the Andrews-Hayesville operation mentioned in the letter.  Well worth buying the 5-book set (available at local bookstores in this region).

 

Thanks for posting, Ike.  Always good to learn more about “the Murphy”.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


locked Re: Murphy Branch, Fontana Dam and Champion Paper

Jim King
 

Interesting to note the substantial amount of wood interchanged from L&N at Murphy.  In all of the Canton mill pix I’ve seen (or remember), none have shown L&N wood racks.  I “assume” L&N (and subsidiary) cars were used and not SOU cars since the wood originated on the L&N.

 

Gerry Ledford has finished the 4th and 5th books in his joint series with Ron Sullivan pertaining to logging operations in western NC.  He/they have extensive coverage on loggers that lasted into the 40s, including the Graham County, C&TS and the Andrews-Hayesville operation mentioned in the letter.  Well worth buying the 5-book set (available at local bookstores in this region).

 

Thanks for posting, Ike.  Always good to learn more about “the Murphy”.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


locked Murphy Branch, Fontana Dam and Champion Paper

George Eichelberger
 

The proposed construction of the Fontana Dam and how it would cut the Murphy Branch resulted in a number of letters now in the SRHA archives, Southern Railway Presidents’ Files. The attached two-page letter to EE Norris from the General Traffic Manager at Champion Paper explains the situation from the paper company’s perspective.

Ike



locked Re: Train Bulletin for FDR to travel to DC Feb 3 & 4, 1933

John Stewart
 

Hi Ike

 

Thanks very much, this is interesting

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 1:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Train Bulletin for FDR to travel to DC Feb 3 & 4, 1933

 

For the first inauguration of FDR in 1933, the Southern moved 7,633 passenger to Washington March 1- 4. More than 3200 were in Pullmans in regular trains, extra sections of regular trains and special trains. A note from ER Oliver to Fairfax Harrison says that was double the numbers in 1929. (It does not mention if the Pullmans were used as hotel space in DC.)

 

The following Bulletin is for FDR’s train from Warm Springs to Washington.

 

Ike

 

 

561 - 580 of 1896