Date   

locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

Bill Schafer
 

Great, Rick. Thanks.

On Sep 16, 2020, at 17:57, rwbrv4 via groups.io <Rwbrv4@...> wrote:

Ben Robert's told me there were 3..Some where I have the pictures he gave me.  Ill try to find them.
Rick




On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 Bill Schafer <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> wrote:

In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

rwbrv4
 

Ben Robert's told me there were 3..Some where I have the pictures he gave me.  Ill try to find them.
Rick




On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 Bill Schafer <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> wrote:

In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

Don Yelverton
 

Bill,
Shelby Lowe once told me that these along with several Pacifics and switchers painted in this scheme with "Southern" on the tender sides rather than the large numerals were used in passenger service. Of course the others didn't have the dog house. This was basically the early passenger scheme. They looked great. I assume with the dog house they could have been used in both passenger and freight service.

I actually bought one of the models of an HO scale PSC Pacific with the 10K tender for this purpose but sold it before I got chance to have it painted.

Best regards,

Don Yelverton


On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 04:24:47 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

Bill Schafer
 

In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked SRHA Archives Work Session Cancelled

Jim Thurston
 

The SRHA archives work session for 18-19 September 2020 has been cancelled, due to continuing threat of Covid-19

Jim Thurston



locked Re: Lines to Saint Louis

Steve Ellis
 

George,

Yes I did meet Ben Roberts at his home. He was a very nice man, and he had an impressive collection from the Southern Railroad.


Steve



On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:28 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Steve:

Ben Roberts and Oscar Kimsey were the "heart and soul" of the Southern Railway Historical Society. Both were prolific photographers and more or less produced "Southern Rails" by themselves. They were not really interested in incorporating the "SRHS" or dealing with officers, etc. It was primarily operated to produce the magazine, largely from Ben's and Oscar's collections.

A group of Southern fans that wanted a more structured organization, created the Southern Railway Historical Association (SRHA) at Spencer Shops. Bill Schafer is the organization's historian and can fill us in on the early details. The two organizations continued for a number of years with many people maintaining memberships in both.

After the magazine had been out of production for a number of years, SRHS was dissolved and combined with SRHA. (SRHA owns both names but is concerned using "SRHS" would be confusing.) As several SRHA members were good friends with Oscar and Ben, we suggested that their collections of Southern Railway material and photos could be acquired and made permanent parts of the SRHA archives. Ben's came to SRHA first, followed by Oscar's several years later. They both passed away knowing SRHA would maintain and utilize their collections as long as possible. Oscar visited the archives at Kennesaw and we believe both men were pleased with their decisions.

I spent more time with Oscar in person and on the phone the years before he passed away. His knowledge of the Southern Railway was encyclopedic and our shared interest in railroad photography and freight cars made for many interesting conversations. Both Ben and Oscar were "charter members" of the early (few) Southeastern rail photographers. Their collections, extensive trading with virtually every well known rail photographer along with other collections and the extensive materials donated to SRHA by Norfolk Southern most certainly make the SRHA archives, now at TVRM, the most extensive collection of Southern Railway and Southeastern railroad photos and documentation .

Our collective goal is to maintain the collection for people interested in the Southern....basically, to "Keep the Green Light Shining".

Ike: for Carl, Bill, the SRHA BOD and all our members


locked Re: Lines to Saint Louis

George Eichelberger
 

Steve:

Ben Roberts and Oscar Kimsey were the "heart and soul" of the Southern Railway Historical Society. Both were prolific photographers and more or less produced "Southern Rails" by themselves. They were not really interested in incorporating the "SRHS" or dealing with officers, etc. It was primarily operated to produce the magazine, largely from Ben's and Oscar's collections.

A group of Southern fans that wanted a more structured organization, created the Southern Railway Historical Association (SRHA) at Spencer Shops. Bill Schafer is the organization's historian and can fill us in on the early details. The two organizations continued for a number of years with many people maintaining memberships in both.

After the magazine had been out of production for a number of years, SRHS was dissolved and combined with SRHA. (SRHA owns both names but is concerned using "SRHS" would be confusing.) As several SRHA members were good friends with Oscar and Ben, we suggested that their collections of Southern Railway material and photos could be acquired and made permanent parts of the SRHA archives. Ben's came to SRHA first, followed by Oscar's several years later. They both passed away knowing SRHA would maintain and utilize their collections as long as possible. Oscar visited the archives at Kennesaw and we believe both men were pleased with their decisions.

I spent more time with Oscar in person and on the phone the years before he passed away. His knowledge of the Southern Railway was encyclopedic and our shared interest in railroad photography and freight cars made for many interesting conversations. Both Ben and Oscar were "charter members" of the early (few) Southeastern rail photographers. Their collections, extensive trading with virtually every well known rail photographer along with other collections and the extensive materials donated to SRHA by Norfolk Southern most certainly make the SRHA archives, now at TVRM, the most extensive collection of Southern Railway and Southeastern railroad photos and documentation .

Our collective goal is to maintain the collection for people interested in the Southern....basically, to "Keep the Green Light Shining".

Ike: for Carl, Bill, the SRHA BOD and all our members


locked Re: Lines to Saint Louis

Steve Ellis
 

Thank you.

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 03:07:40 PM PDT, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:


Steve: 
The organization, the SRHS, no longer exists and hasn't for some years.  SRHA was started many years ago as the alternative.  Check out our website at www.srha.net.
CEA
On 09/09/2020 4:34 PM Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I was in the historical society, or one of them, for the Southern Railway maybe 20 years ago. 


There was an old gentleman named Mr. Roberts in the Augusta Georgia area who was the head of it. I paid the dues, but I never got any publications or any kind of information at all. I will have a look at the website, I’m sure the club is much better now.


Fortunately I rode the original Southern Railway from Washington to Atlanta in October of 1970. I’ve been to the Spencer yards in North Carolina a few times as well.


I have Mike’s three books which describe most of the major railways in the country. I also have one he wrote called The American Passenger Train and then another one called Classic American Streamliners. I wonder if he wrote any others? They are wonderful.




On Sep 9, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Mike Schafer and I are co-editors of SRHA’s quarterly journal, TIES. We are distant cousins. If you have an interest in the fascinating Southern Railway, you should consider joining SRHA. You can do so on our website at SRHA.net.

I have not done an extensive study on the issue, but I believe 1922 is about the time rail passenger service, nationally, began its inexorable decline (World War II, excepted). I know that’s true for SOU, which handled fewer passengers in 1929 than in 1920. 

—Bill


On Sep 9, 2020, at 16:49, Steve Ellis via groups.io < meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, and this is wonderful information. I always wondered about that line. 


The earliest passenger timetable I have for the Southern is April 1962. On the map of the rail system, the line to St. Louis is still shown. However, if you look in the index and look up any cities on the line including St. Louis, it will just say freight service only.


It is nice that they did have passenger trains on this line at one time. I don’t know if this is true anymore but maybe 10 years ago or a little more, I read that train service in this country peaked in 1922. Except for a flurry during World War II, it has declined every year since then. Maybe this is no longer valid, or maybe the source was not even completely accurate at the time.

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn, New York


PS: I don’t suppose you are any relation to Mike Schaeffer who has written some excellent books on passenger trains?




On Sep 9, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Bill Schafer < bill4501@...> wrote:

1910 - SOU ran three each way daily into/out of St. Louis - trains 7-8, accommodation trains Mt. Vernon, Ill.-St. Louis making all local stops; trains 1-2, overnight to/from Louisville with connections to Asheville and other points. Carried a Danville-St Louis sleeper. And trains 23-24 ( St. Louis Special), overnight Asheville-Knoxville-Louisville, day train Louisville-St. Louis. Advertised Asheville-Louisville sleeper, thru coach Knoxville-St. Louis, Parlor-Cafe car Louisville-St. Louis.

1920 - Same train pattern as 1910.Trains 1-2 thru sleeping car and coaches Danville-St. Louis plus Louisville-St. Louis sleeper (all Pullmans were 12 section-1 drawing room cars). Trains 23-24 ( St. Louis Special) Thru sleepers St. Louis-Asheville and Louisville-Atlanta.

1930 - Same train patters as 1910-1920. Trains 1-2 Pullman observation sleeper St. Louis-Danville, standard sleeper St. Louis-Louisville. Trains 23-24 ( St. Louis Special) sleepers St. Louis-Louisville-Asheville, Louisville-Atlanta. Cafe-parlor car Danville-St. Louis.

1940 - Accommodation train gone by this time; trains 1-2 - same overnight schedule but coaches only. Trains 23-24 - same daytime schedule; meal stops advertised - breakfast/dinner at Louisville; luncheon at Princeton. Sleeper between Louisville and Asheville.

1950 - Trains 1-2 gone. 23-24 originated/terminated at East St. Louis (Relay Station); passengers connected to/from St. Louis via GM&O trains. Still advertised heavyweight sleeper Louisville-Asheville. 

Trains 23-24 discontinued between East St. Louis and Louisville in May 1953 (if I remember correctly). Louisville-Danville service continued until 1955.

Southern trains to/from St. Louis always fed the Southern system; did not provide through service for other railroads. 

—Bill Schafer



On Sep 9, 2020, at 12:56, Stuart Thayer via groups.io < StuThayer@...> wrote:
Steve,

The L&N did not have any through cars to St Louis on Southern passenger trains because they had their own trains that ran to St Louis.

Stuart Thayer
 
In a message dated 9/9/2020 9:25:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, meadowbrookdairy@... writes:

Yes, it would be nice if they were more attention paid to that division. I wonder if they were through cars on passenger trains from other railroads like possibly Louisville and Nashville.


I do believe that there were thru sleeping cars from New York City to New Orleans with the Pennsylvania Railroad looking after the run as far south as Washington.

Steve Ellis



On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:13 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io < StuThayer@...> wrote:


Yes their yard and facilities were actually across the river in Illinois, but the passenger trains would likely have continued across the river to St. Louis Union Station on TRRA trackage and the Merchants Bridge.

It is a shame that the Southern’s St. Louis division gets such little attention.  It was an interesting stretch of railroad.

Stuart Thayer 



On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:23 AM, Steve Ellis via groups.io < meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


Thank you very much. Well it is nice to know that at least there were passenger trains. I think the Southern actually terminated at East St. Louis, didn’t it?



On Sep 9, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io < StuThayer@...> wrote:


Steve,

Actually the line to St Louis started just North of Danville and bypassed Lexington to the Southwest.
On the subject of passenger trains I do know there were passenger trains because I have seen a few photos of these trains in Louisville.  Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of specific information without getting into some books and Official Guides.

Stuart Thayer 



On Sep 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io < meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

I know that the Southern Railway had a line from Lexington to St. Louis. However, I have
never heard of a passenger train on that route. Did they have any?

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn New York




locked Re: Lines to Saint Louis

Carl Ardrey
 

Steve: 
The organization, the SRHS, no longer exists and hasn't for some years.  SRHA was started many years ago as the alternative.  Check out our website at www.srha.net.
CEA

On 09/09/2020 4:34 PM Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I was in the historical society, or one of them, for the Southern Railway maybe 20 years ago. 


There was an old gentleman named Mr. Roberts in the Augusta Georgia area who was the head of it. I paid the dues, but I never got any publications or any kind of information at all. I will have a look at the website, I’m sure the club is much better now.


Fortunately I rode the original Southern Railway from Washington to Atlanta in October of 1970. I’ve been to the Spencer yards in North Carolina a few times as well.


I have Mike’s three books which describe most of the major railways in the country. I also have one he wrote called The American Passenger Train and then another one called Classic American Streamliners. I wonder if he wrote any others? They are wonderful.




On Sep 9, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Mike Schafer and I are co-editors of SRHA’s quarterly journal, TIES. We are distant cousins. If you have an interest in the fascinating Southern Railway, you should consider joining SRHA. You can do so on our website at SRHA.net.

I have not done an extensive study on the issue, but I believe 1922 is about the time rail passenger service, nationally, began its inexorable decline (World War II, excepted). I know that’s true for SOU, which handled fewer passengers in 1929 than in 1920. 

—Bill


On Sep 9, 2020, at 16:49, Steve Ellis via groups.io < meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, and this is wonderful information. I always wondered about that line. 


The earliest passenger timetable I have for the Southern is April 1962. On the map of the rail system, the line to St. Louis is still shown. However, if you look in the index and look up any cities on the line including St. Louis, it will just say freight service only.


It is nice that they did have passenger trains on this line at one time. I don’t know if this is true anymore but maybe 10 years ago or a little more, I read that train service in this country peaked in 1922. Except for a flurry during World War II, it has declined every year since then. Maybe this is no longer valid, or maybe the source was not even completely accurate at the time.

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn, New York


PS: I don’t suppose you are any relation to Mike Schaeffer who has written some excellent books on passenger trains?




On Sep 9, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Bill Schafer < bill4501@...> wrote:

1910 - SOU ran three each way daily into/out of St. Louis - trains 7-8, accommodation trains Mt. Vernon, Ill.-St. Louis making all local stops; trains 1-2, overnight to/from Louisville with connections to Asheville and other points. Carried a Danville-St Louis sleeper. And trains 23-24 ( St. Louis Special), overnight Asheville-Knoxville-Louisville, day train Louisville-St. Louis. Advertised Asheville-Louisville sleeper, thru coach Knoxville-St. Louis, Parlor-Cafe car Louisville-St. Louis.

1920 - Same train pattern as 1910.Trains 1-2 thru sleeping car and coaches Danville-St. Louis plus Louisville-St. Louis sleeper (all Pullmans were 12 section-1 drawing room cars). Trains 23-24 ( St. Louis Special) Thru sleepers St. Louis-Asheville and Louisville-Atlanta.

1930 - Same train patters as 1910-1920. Trains 1-2 Pullman observation sleeper St. Louis-Danville, standard sleeper St. Louis-Louisville. Trains 23-24 ( St. Louis Special) sleepers St. Louis-Louisville-Asheville, Louisville-Atlanta. Cafe-parlor car Danville-St. Louis.

1940 - Accommodation train gone by this time; trains 1-2 - same overnight schedule but coaches only. Trains 23-24 - same daytime schedule; meal stops advertised - breakfast/dinner at Louisville; luncheon at Princeton. Sleeper between Louisville and Asheville.

1950 - Trains 1-2 gone. 23-24 originated/terminated at East St. Louis (Relay Station); passengers connected to/from St. Louis via GM&O trains. Still advertised heavyweight sleeper Louisville-Asheville. 

Trains 23-24 discontinued between East St. Louis and Louisville in May 1953 (if I remember correctly). Louisville-Danville service continued until 1955.

Southern trains to/from St. Louis always fed the Southern system; did not provide through service for other railroads. 

—Bill Schafer



On Sep 9, 2020, at 12:56, Stuart Thayer via groups.io < StuThayer@...> wrote:
Steve,

The L&N did not have any through cars to St Louis on Southern passenger trains because they had their own trains that ran to St Louis.

Stuart Thayer
 
In a message dated 9/9/2020 9:25:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, meadowbrookdairy@... writes:

Yes, it would be nice if they were more attention paid to that division. I wonder if they were through cars on passenger trains from other railroads like possibly Louisville and Nashville.


I do believe that there were thru sleeping cars from New York City to New Orleans with the Pennsylvania Railroad looking after the run as far south as Washington.

Steve Ellis



On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:13 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io < StuThayer@...> wrote:


Yes their yard and facilities were actually across the river in Illinois, but the passenger trains would likely have continued across the river to St. Louis Union Station on TRRA trackage and the Merchants Bridge.

It is a shame that the Southern’s St. Louis division gets such little attention.  It was an interesting stretch of railroad.

Stuart Thayer 



On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:23 AM, Steve Ellis via groups.io < meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


Thank you very much. Well it is nice to know that at least there were passenger trains. I think the Southern actually terminated at East St. Louis, didn’t it?



On Sep 9, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io < StuThayer@...> wrote:


Steve,

Actually the line to St Louis started just North of Danville and bypassed Lexington to the Southwest.
On the subject of passenger trains I do know there were passenger trains because I have seen a few photos of these trains in Louisville.  Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of specific information without getting into some books and Official Guides.

Stuart Thayer 



On Sep 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io < meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

I know that the Southern Railway had a line from Lexington to St. Louis. However, I have
never heard of a passenger train on that route. Did they have any?

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn New York




locked Re: Lines to Saint Louis

George Eichelberger
 

The status reports of passenger train discontinuances, rejections and approvals to VP DW Brosnan in the SRHA archives begin in April, 1947 and continued, almost monthly, into the mid fifties. The report for May 1952 (page 1 attached) says: 23 & 24 In Illinois: “last runs will be on June 16” (1952).

A May 19th memo from E.R. Oliver to Atty. Charles Clark (the Southern’s “point man” for passenger train discontinuances at the time) was “CCd” to President DeButts with the note “Charlie has fought hard and long on this difficult case.” The note continues, “Indiana ought to now immediately fall in line”.

Ike




On Sep 9, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

1910 - SOU ran three each way daily into/out of St. Louis - trains 7-8, accommodation trains Mt. Vernon, Ill.-St. Louis making all local stops; trains 1-2, overnight to/from Louisville with connections to Asheville and other points. Carried a Danville-St Louis sleeper. And trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special), overnight Asheville-Knoxville-Louisville, day train Louisville-St. Louis. Advertised Asheville-Louisville sleeper, thru coach Knoxville-St. Louis, Parlor-Cafe car Louisville-St. Louis.

1920 - Same train pattern as 1910.Trains 1-2 thru sleeping car and coaches Danville-St. Louis plus Louisville-St. Louis sleeper (all Pullmans were 12 section-1 drawing room cars). Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) Thru sleepers St. Louis-Asheville and Louisville-Atlanta.

1930 - Same train patters as 1910-1920. Trains 1-2 Pullman observation sleeper St. Louis-Danville, standard sleeper St. Louis-Louisville. Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) sleepers St. Louis-Louisville-Asheville, Louisville-Atlanta. Cafe-parlor car Danville-St. Louis.

1940 - Accommodation train gone by this time; trains 1-2 - same overnight schedule but coaches only. Trains 23-24 - same daytime schedule; meal stops advertised - breakfast/dinner at Louisville; luncheon at Princeton. Sleeper between Louisville and Asheville.

1950 - Trains 1-2 gone. 23-24 originated/terminated at East St. Louis (Relay Station); passengers connected to/from St. Louis via GM&O trains. Still advertised heavyweight sleeper Louisville-Asheville. 

Trains 23-24 discontinued between East St. Louis and Louisville in May 1953 (if I remember correctly). Louisville-Danville service continued until 1955.

Southern trains to/from St. Louis always fed the Southern system; did not provide through service for other railroads. 

—Bill Schafer


locked Re: Lines to Saint Louis

Steve Ellis
 

I was in the historical society, or one of them, for the Southern Railway maybe 20 years ago. 


There was an old gentleman named Mr. Roberts in the Augusta Georgia area who was the head of it. I paid the dues, but I never got any publications or any kind of information at all. I will have a look at the website, I’m sure the club is much better now.


Fortunately I rode the original Southern Railway from Washington to Atlanta in October of 1970. I’ve been to the Spencer yards in North Carolina a few times as well.


I have Mike’s three books which describe most of the major railways in the country. I also have one he wrote called The American Passenger Train and then another one called Classic American Streamliners. I wonder if he wrote any others? They are wonderful.



On Sep 9, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Mike Schafer and I are co-editors of SRHA’s quarterly journal, TIES. We are distant cousins. If you have an interest in the fascinating Southern Railway, you should consider joining SRHA. You can do so on our website at SRHA.net.

I have not done an extensive study on the issue, but I believe 1922 is about the time rail passenger service, nationally, began its inexorable decline (World War II, excepted). I know that’s true for SOU, which handled fewer passengers in 1929 than in 1920. 

—Bill


On Sep 9, 2020, at 16:49, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Thank you Bill, and this is wonderful information. I always wondered about that line. 


The earliest passenger timetable I have for the Southern is April 1962. On the map of the rail system, the line to St. Louis is still shown. However, if you look in the index and look up any cities on the line including St. Louis, it will just say freight service only.


It is nice that they did have passenger trains on this line at one time. I don’t know if this is true anymore but maybe 10 years ago or a little more, I read that train service in this country peaked in 1922. Except for a flurry during World War II, it has declined every year since then. Maybe this is no longer valid, or maybe the source was not even completely accurate at the time.

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn, New York


PS: I don’t suppose you are any relation to Mike Schaeffer who has written some excellent books on passenger trains?



On Sep 9, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

1910 - SOU ran three each way daily into/out of St. Louis - trains 7-8, accommodation trains Mt. Vernon, Ill.-St. Louis making all local stops; trains 1-2, overnight to/from Louisville with connections to Asheville and other points. Carried a Danville-St Louis sleeper. And trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special), overnight Asheville-Knoxville-Louisville, day train Louisville-St. Louis. Advertised Asheville-Louisville sleeper, thru coach Knoxville-St. Louis, Parlor-Cafe car Louisville-St. Louis.

1920 - Same train pattern as 1910.Trains 1-2 thru sleeping car and coaches Danville-St. Louis plus Louisville-St. Louis sleeper (all Pullmans were 12 section-1 drawing room cars). Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) Thru sleepers St. Louis-Asheville and Louisville-Atlanta.

1930 - Same train patters as 1910-1920. Trains 1-2 Pullman observation sleeper St. Louis-Danville, standard sleeper St. Louis-Louisville. Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) sleepers St. Louis-Louisville-Asheville, Louisville-Atlanta. Cafe-parlor car Danville-St. Louis.

1940 - Accommodation train gone by this time; trains 1-2 - same overnight schedule but coaches only. Trains 23-24 - same daytime schedule; meal stops advertised - breakfast/dinner at Louisville; luncheon at Princeton. Sleeper between Louisville and Asheville.

1950 - Trains 1-2 gone. 23-24 originated/terminated at East St. Louis (Relay Station); passengers connected to/from St. Louis via GM&O trains. Still advertised heavyweight sleeper Louisville-Asheville. 

Trains 23-24 discontinued between East St. Louis and Louisville in May 1953 (if I remember correctly). Louisville-Danville service continued until 1955.

Southern trains to/from St. Louis always fed the Southern system; did not provide through service for other railroads. 

—Bill Schafer



On Sep 9, 2020, at 12:56, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

Steve,
 
The L&N did not have any through cars to St Louis on Southern passenger trains because they had their own trains that ran to St Louis.
 
Stuart Thayer
 
In a message dated 9/9/2020 9:25:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, meadowbrookdairy@... writes:
 
Yes, it would be nice if they were more attention paid to that division. I wonder if they were through cars on passenger trains from other railroads like possibly Louisville and Nashville.


I do believe that there were thru sleeping cars from New York City to New Orleans with the Pennsylvania Railroad looking after the run as far south as Washington.

Steve Ellis

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:13 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

 
Yes their yard and facilities were actually across the river in Illinois, but the passenger trains would likely have continued across the river to St. Louis Union Station on TRRA trackage and the Merchants Bridge.
 
It is a shame that the Southern’s St. Louis division gets such little attention.  It was an interesting stretch of railroad.
 
Stuart Thayer 

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:23 AM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

 
Thank you very much. Well it is nice to know that at least there were passenger trains. I think the Southern actually terminated at East St. Louis, didn’t it?

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

 
Steve,
 
Actually the line to St Louis started just North of Danville and bypassed Lexington to the Southwest.
On the subject of passenger trains I do know there were passenger trains because I have seen a few photos of these trains in Louisville.  Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of specific information without getting into some books and Official Guides.
 
Stuart Thayer 

 

On Sep 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

I know that the Southern Railway had a line from Lexington to St. Louis. However, I have
never heard of a passenger train on that route. Did they have any?

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn New York



locked Re: Lines to Saint Louis

Bill Schafer
 

Mike Schafer and I are co-editors of SRHA’s quarterly journal, TIES. We are distant cousins. If you have an interest in the fascinating Southern Railway, you should consider joining SRHA. You can do so on our website at SRHA.net.

I have not done an extensive study on the issue, but I believe 1922 is about the time rail passenger service, nationally, began its inexorable decline (World War II, excepted). I know that’s true for SOU, which handled fewer passengers in 1929 than in 1920. 

—Bill


On Sep 9, 2020, at 16:49, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Thank you Bill, and this is wonderful information. I always wondered about that line. 


The earliest passenger timetable I have for the Southern is April 1962. On the map of the rail system, the line to St. Louis is still shown. However, if you look in the index and look up any cities on the line including St. Louis, it will just say freight service only.


It is nice that they did have passenger trains on this line at one time. I don’t know if this is true anymore but maybe 10 years ago or a little more, I read that train service in this country peaked in 1922. Except for a flurry during World War II, it has declined every year since then. Maybe this is no longer valid, or maybe the source was not even completely accurate at the time.

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn, New York


PS: I don’t suppose you are any relation to Mike Schaeffer who has written some excellent books on passenger trains?



On Sep 9, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

1910 - SOU ran three each way daily into/out of St. Louis - trains 7-8, accommodation trains Mt. Vernon, Ill.-St. Louis making all local stops; trains 1-2, overnight to/from Louisville with connections to Asheville and other points. Carried a Danville-St Louis sleeper. And trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special), overnight Asheville-Knoxville-Louisville, day train Louisville-St. Louis. Advertised Asheville-Louisville sleeper, thru coach Knoxville-St. Louis, Parlor-Cafe car Louisville-St. Louis.

1920 - Same train pattern as 1910.Trains 1-2 thru sleeping car and coaches Danville-St. Louis plus Louisville-St. Louis sleeper (all Pullmans were 12 section-1 drawing room cars). Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) Thru sleepers St. Louis-Asheville and Louisville-Atlanta.

1930 - Same train patters as 1910-1920. Trains 1-2 Pullman observation sleeper St. Louis-Danville, standard sleeper St. Louis-Louisville. Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) sleepers St. Louis-Louisville-Asheville, Louisville-Atlanta. Cafe-parlor car Danville-St. Louis.

1940 - Accommodation train gone by this time; trains 1-2 - same overnight schedule but coaches only. Trains 23-24 - same daytime schedule; meal stops advertised - breakfast/dinner at Louisville; luncheon at Princeton. Sleeper between Louisville and Asheville.

1950 - Trains 1-2 gone. 23-24 originated/terminated at East St. Louis (Relay Station); passengers connected to/from St. Louis via GM&O trains. Still advertised heavyweight sleeper Louisville-Asheville. 

Trains 23-24 discontinued between East St. Louis and Louisville in May 1953 (if I remember correctly). Louisville-Danville service continued until 1955.

Southern trains to/from St. Louis always fed the Southern system; did not provide through service for other railroads. 

—Bill Schafer



On Sep 9, 2020, at 12:56, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

Steve,
 
The L&N did not have any through cars to St Louis on Southern passenger trains because they had their own trains that ran to St Louis.
 
Stuart Thayer
 
In a message dated 9/9/2020 9:25:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, meadowbrookdairy@... writes:
 
Yes, it would be nice if they were more attention paid to that division. I wonder if they were through cars on passenger trains from other railroads like possibly Louisville and Nashville.


I do believe that there were thru sleeping cars from New York City to New Orleans with the Pennsylvania Railroad looking after the run as far south as Washington.

Steve Ellis

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:13 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

 
Yes their yard and facilities were actually across the river in Illinois, but the passenger trains would likely have continued across the river to St. Louis Union Station on TRRA trackage and the Merchants Bridge.
 
It is a shame that the Southern’s St. Louis division gets such little attention.  It was an interesting stretch of railroad.
 
Stuart Thayer 

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:23 AM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

 
Thank you very much. Well it is nice to know that at least there were passenger trains. I think the Southern actually terminated at East St. Louis, didn’t it?

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

 
Steve,
 
Actually the line to St Louis started just North of Danville and bypassed Lexington to the Southwest.
On the subject of passenger trains I do know there were passenger trains because I have seen a few photos of these trains in Louisville.  Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of specific information without getting into some books and Official Guides.
 
Stuart Thayer 

 

On Sep 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

I know that the Southern Railway had a line from Lexington to St. Louis. However, I have
never heard of a passenger train on that route. Did they have any?

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn New York



locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

Charles Powell
 

I grew up next to the K&0 line west of Knoxville in the early 60s and remember the boxcars with no doors. The lime was piled in bulk in each end of the car. Seemed like it was seasonal as in early spring time and there would be blocks of cars leaving a white cloud in their wake. A lot of it came as a byproduct of the zinc mines up north of Knoxville around Mascot, TN. Another service for old boxcars on their way out was cotton seed service. Once the car was loaded with cotton seed the oil would soak into the lining and contaminate other products loaded in the cars later. 


locked Re: Lines to Saint Louis

Steve Ellis
 

Thank you Bill, and this is wonderful information. I always wondered about that line. 


The earliest passenger timetable I have for the Southern is April 1962. On the map of the rail system, the line to St. Louis is still shown. However, if you look in the index and look up any cities on the line including St. Louis, it will just say freight service only.


It is nice that they did have passenger trains on this line at one time. I don’t know if this is true anymore but maybe 10 years ago or a little more, I read that train service in this country peaked in 1922. Except for a flurry during World War II, it has declined every year since then. Maybe this is no longer valid, or maybe the source was not even completely accurate at the time.

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn, New York


PS: I don’t suppose you are any relation to Mike Schaeffer who has written some excellent books on passenger trains?



On Sep 9, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

1910 - SOU ran three each way daily into/out of St. Louis - trains 7-8, accommodation trains Mt. Vernon, Ill.-St. Louis making all local stops; trains 1-2, overnight to/from Louisville with connections to Asheville and other points. Carried a Danville-St Louis sleeper. And trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special), overnight Asheville-Knoxville-Louisville, day train Louisville-St. Louis. Advertised Asheville-Louisville sleeper, thru coach Knoxville-St. Louis, Parlor-Cafe car Louisville-St. Louis.

1920 - Same train pattern as 1910.Trains 1-2 thru sleeping car and coaches Danville-St. Louis plus Louisville-St. Louis sleeper (all Pullmans were 12 section-1 drawing room cars). Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) Thru sleepers St. Louis-Asheville and Louisville-Atlanta.

1930 - Same train patters as 1910-1920. Trains 1-2 Pullman observation sleeper St. Louis-Danville, standard sleeper St. Louis-Louisville. Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) sleepers St. Louis-Louisville-Asheville, Louisville-Atlanta. Cafe-parlor car Danville-St. Louis.

1940 - Accommodation train gone by this time; trains 1-2 - same overnight schedule but coaches only. Trains 23-24 - same daytime schedule; meal stops advertised - breakfast/dinner at Louisville; luncheon at Princeton. Sleeper between Louisville and Asheville.

1950 - Trains 1-2 gone. 23-24 originated/terminated at East St. Louis (Relay Station); passengers connected to/from St. Louis via GM&O trains. Still advertised heavyweight sleeper Louisville-Asheville. 

Trains 23-24 discontinued between East St. Louis and Louisville in May 1953 (if I remember correctly). Louisville-Danville service continued until 1955.

Southern trains to/from St. Louis always fed the Southern system; did not provide through service for other railroads. 

—Bill Schafer



On Sep 9, 2020, at 12:56, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

Steve,
 
The L&N did not have any through cars to St Louis on Southern passenger trains because they had their own trains that ran to St Louis.
 
Stuart Thayer
 
In a message dated 9/9/2020 9:25:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, meadowbrookdairy@... writes:
 
Yes, it would be nice if they were more attention paid to that division. I wonder if they were through cars on passenger trains from other railroads like possibly Louisville and Nashville.


I do believe that there were thru sleeping cars from New York City to New Orleans with the Pennsylvania Railroad looking after the run as far south as Washington.

Steve Ellis

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:13 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

 
Yes their yard and facilities were actually across the river in Illinois, but the passenger trains would likely have continued across the river to St. Louis Union Station on TRRA trackage and the Merchants Bridge.
 
It is a shame that the Southern’s St. Louis division gets such little attention.  It was an interesting stretch of railroad.
 
Stuart Thayer 

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:23 AM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

 
Thank you very much. Well it is nice to know that at least there were passenger trains. I think the Southern actually terminated at East St. Louis, didn’t it?

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

 
Steve,
 
Actually the line to St Louis started just North of Danville and bypassed Lexington to the Southwest.
On the subject of passenger trains I do know there were passenger trains because I have seen a few photos of these trains in Louisville.  Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of specific information without getting into some books and Official Guides.
 
Stuart Thayer 

 

On Sep 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

I know that the Southern Railway had a line from Lexington to St. Louis. However, I have
never heard of a passenger train on that route. Did they have any?

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn New York


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

John M. Ware, P.E.
 

Central of Georgia Pulpwood Cars (Box Cars)

   CG converted approx 1300 36 ft Vent Box cars to Pulpwood rack cars in 1953=/-Information on the conversion is featured in the Jan-Mar 2007 issue of The Right Way magazine. The Customer Load requirements are in the July-Sept 2009 issue.

 

John Ware

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2020 8:45 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

 

I am certain Central of Georgia box cars, without doors, were used in lime service. I have taken, but not found, photos of either CG or Southern cars carrying lime but I will keep looking. The Hayne Shop records show some 50' cars in lime service but they may have been roof hatch cars.

One reason why I sure 40' cars were used is because seeing box cars with no doors was unusual. There is no official drawing but the Central applied a small (3" letters?) stencil to the right of the door that said something like "lime service, no doors, do not bad order".

Bulk fertilizer or untreated hides ("tankage") were supposed to be shipped only in the lowest class box cars as they contaminated the car. Box cars at that point were one step from the scrap line. As no "modifications" were done, there are no shop records or car assignments that tell us which cars were in that kind of service. Given the condition of the cars, I suspect they were not in that service very long.

I am not aware of box cars being used for pulpwood although "never say never". While shortages of wood racks were not uncommon, unloading facilities at mills would have had a difficult time dealing with box cars. Even with inexpensive labor, the time to load and unload box cars by hand would have made it uneconomical.

Ike


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Regarding the early pulpwood rack conversions I was wrong on my first dates.  Here is a spreadsheet from my pulpwood clinic
Southern Ry Pulpwood Racks -  Flat car conversions
Car No. Series No. of Cars Converted From Blt. Date In. Length Yr. Converted Comments
115000-116599 (SR) 267 115XXX-116XXX 40 ft flat cars 1926 35'-2" 1934-1937 For Champion Paper, Canton NC
117500-117999(SR) 201 117XXX flat cars 1926 35'-2" 1934-1937 For Champion Paper, Canton NC
325000-325579(NO&NE) 30 325XXX flat cars 1926 35'-2" 1934-1937 For Masonite Corp, Laurel MS
300230-300472(AGS) 40 300XXX flat cars 1926 35'-2" 1934-1937 For Gulf States Paper, Tuscaloosa AL
Southern Ry Pulpwood Racks -  SU Boxcar conversions
Car No. Series No. of Cars Converted From Blt. Date In. Length Yr. Converted Comments
114000-114999 (SR) 1000 SU boxcars 1922 35'-4" 1940-1951 ** 100 in '40, 275 by '42, 1000 by'46
124000-125559 (SR) 1500 SU boxcars 1925 36'-4" 1940-1951 83 by '47, 1123 by July 1950
301000-301099 (AGS) 100 SU boxcars 1926 36'-4" 1940-1951 100 by July 1950
326000-326009 (NO&NE) 10 SU boxcars 1927 36'-4" 1940-1951 10 by April 1951
414000-414099 (GSF) 100 SU boxcars 1928 36'-4" 1940-1951 100 by April '51
** No conversions were done during WWII
--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

A&Y Dave in MD
 

No description on the way the lime was contained.  No idea if it was bulk or bagged. 

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Sep 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

Do the switch lists describe if the lime is bagged? I don’t think we’d see off-line cars on the Southern in bulk lime service? Does anyone know….would box cars without doors be accepted in interchange in 1934?

The cars with no doors were, I expect, only used for on-line shipments in bulk. That is all I ever saw in those cars in the 70s.

Ike



On Sep 9, 2020, at 10:22 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Ike,

Here is the list of cars transporting Lime in 1934 on the W-S division (notes on car type are based upon car number from Al Brown's first try and are preliminary and not guaranteed, tons are listed by Conductor Snow and are just copied verbatim):

<int_1.png>

There were two SU 36' Southern cars (out of 7000+ in database) listed by Conductor Snow with "wood" as contents but that does NOT mean pulp wood. In the 20's and early 30's it is my understanding that there were no pulpwood racks on the Southern.  So how did pulpwood get transported prior to racks?   Low side gons?  The W-S database from Conductor Snow cannot tell us.

As for hides, there were a few more as North Wilkesboro had a tannery and I think a shoe factory (at least they got leather dye in tank cars from a shoe dye firm as well as hides):

<int_2.png>

Dave

Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 8:44:31 AM, you wrote:


I am certain Central of Georgia box cars, without doors, were used in lime service. I have taken, but not found, photos of either CG or Southern cars carrying lime but I will keep looking. The Hayne Shop records show some 50' cars in lime service but they may have been roof hatch cars.

One reason why I sure 40' cars were used is because seeing box cars with no doors was unusual. There is no official drawing but the Central applied a small (3" letters?) stencil to the right of the door that said something like "lime service, no doors, do not bad order".

Bulk fertilizer or untreated hides ("tankage") were supposed to be shipped only in the lowest class box cars as they contaminated the car. Box cars at that point were one step from the scrap line. As no "modifications" were done, there are no shop records or car assignments that tell us which cars were in that kind of service. Given the condition of the cars, I suspect they were not in that service very long.

I am not aware of box cars being used for pulpwood although "never say never". While shortages of wood racks were not uncommon, unloading facilities at mills would have had a difficult time dealing with box cars. Even with inexpensive labor, the time to load and unload box cars by hand would have made it uneconomical.

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Lines to Saint Louis

Bill Schafer
 

1910 - SOU ran three each way daily into/out of St. Louis - trains 7-8, accommodation trains Mt. Vernon, Ill.-St. Louis making all local stops; trains 1-2, overnight to/from Louisville with connections to Asheville and other points. Carried a Danville-St Louis sleeper. And trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special), overnight Asheville-Knoxville-Louisville, day train Louisville-St. Louis. Advertised Asheville-Louisville sleeper, thru coach Knoxville-St. Louis, Parlor-Cafe car Louisville-St. Louis.

1920 - Same train pattern as 1910.Trains 1-2 thru sleeping car and coaches Danville-St. Louis plus Louisville-St. Louis sleeper (all Pullmans were 12 section-1 drawing room cars). Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) Thru sleepers St. Louis-Asheville and Louisville-Atlanta.

1930 - Same train patters as 1910-1920. Trains 1-2 Pullman observation sleeper St. Louis-Danville, standard sleeper St. Louis-Louisville. Trains 23-24 (St. Louis Special) sleepers St. Louis-Louisville-Asheville, Louisville-Atlanta. Cafe-parlor car Danville-St. Louis.

1940 - Accommodation train gone by this time; trains 1-2 - same overnight schedule but coaches only. Trains 23-24 - same daytime schedule; meal stops advertised - breakfast/dinner at Louisville; luncheon at Princeton. Sleeper between Louisville and Asheville.

1950 - Trains 1-2 gone. 23-24 originated/terminated at East St. Louis (Relay Station); passengers connected to/from St. Louis via GM&O trains. Still advertised heavyweight sleeper Louisville-Asheville. 

Trains 23-24 discontinued between East St. Louis and Louisville in May 1953 (if I remember correctly). Louisville-Danville service continued until 1955.

Southern trains to/from St. Louis always fed the Southern system; did not provide through service for other railroads. 

—Bill Schafer



On Sep 9, 2020, at 12:56, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

Steve,
 
The L&N did not have any through cars to St Louis on Southern passenger trains because they had their own trains that ran to St Louis.
 
Stuart Thayer
 
In a message dated 9/9/2020 9:25:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, meadowbrookdairy@... writes:
 
Yes, it would be nice if they were more attention paid to that division. I wonder if they were through cars on passenger trains from other railroads like possibly Louisville and Nashville.


I do believe that there were thru sleeping cars from New York City to New Orleans with the Pennsylvania Railroad looking after the run as far south as Washington.

Steve Ellis

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:13 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

 
Yes their yard and facilities were actually across the river in Illinois, but the passenger trains would likely have continued across the river to St. Louis Union Station on TRRA trackage and the Merchants Bridge.
 
It is a shame that the Southern’s St. Louis division gets such little attention.  It was an interesting stretch of railroad.
 
Stuart Thayer 

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:23 AM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

 
Thank you very much. Well it is nice to know that at least there were passenger trains. I think the Southern actually terminated at East St. Louis, didn’t it?

 

On Sep 9, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Stuart Thayer via groups.io <StuThayer@...> wrote:

 
Steve,
 
Actually the line to St Louis started just North of Danville and bypassed Lexington to the Southwest.
On the subject of passenger trains I do know there were passenger trains because I have seen a few photos of these trains in Louisville.  Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of specific information without getting into some books and Official Guides.
 
Stuart Thayer 

 

On Sep 8, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

I know that the Southern Railway had a line from Lexington to St. Louis. However, I have
never heard of a passenger train on that route. Did they have any?

Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn New York


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Ike I think lots of modelers would. From what I’ve found SR started building pulpwood racks from the 115XXX, 117XXX flat cars in the 1920’s. By the late 1940’s and 1950’s I doubt much SR pulpwood moved in boxcars. 
I’ve seen no evidence of it but I’ll bet there was some in box or stock cars when convenient or necessary 
Fenton 


On Sep 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

Do the switch lists describe if the lime is bagged? I don’t think we’d see off-line cars on the Southern in bulk lime service? Does anyone know….would box cars without doors be accepted in interchange in 1934?

The cars with no doors were, I expect, only used for on-line shipments in bulk. That is all I ever saw in those cars in the 70s.

Ike



On Sep 9, 2020, at 10:22 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Ike,

Here is the list of cars transporting Lime in 1934 on the W-S division (notes on car type are based upon car number from Al Brown's first try and are preliminary and not guaranteed, tons are listed by Conductor Snow and are just copied verbatim):

<int_1.png>

There were two SU 36' Southern cars (out of 7000+ in database) listed by Conductor Snow with "wood" as contents but that does NOT mean pulp wood. In the 20's and early 30's it is my understanding that there were no pulpwood racks on the Southern.  So how did pulpwood get transported prior to racks?   Low side gons?  The W-S database from Conductor Snow cannot tell us.

As for hides, there were a few more as North Wilkesboro had a tannery and I think a shoe factory (at least they got leather dye in tank cars from a shoe dye firm as well as hides):

<int_2.png>

Dave

Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 8:44:31 AM, you wrote:


I am certain Central of Georgia box cars, without doors, were used in lime service. I have taken, but not found, photos of either CG or Southern cars carrying lime but I will keep looking. The Hayne Shop records show some 50' cars in lime service but they may have been roof hatch cars.

One reason why I sure 40' cars were used is because seeing box cars with no doors was unusual. There is no official drawing but the Central applied a small (3" letters?) stencil to the right of the door that said something like "lime service, no doors, do not bad order".

Bulk fertilizer or untreated hides ("tankage") were supposed to be shipped only in the lowest class box cars as they contaminated the car. Box cars at that point were one step from the scrap line. As no "modifications" were done, there are no shop records or car assignments that tell us which cars were in that kind of service. Given the condition of the cars, I suspect they were not in that service very long.

I am not aware of box cars being used for pulpwood although "never say never". While shortages of wood racks were not uncommon, unloading facilities at mills would have had a difficult time dealing with box cars. Even with inexpensive labor, the time to load and unload box cars by hand would have made it uneconomical.

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

Do the switch lists describe if the lime is bagged? I don’t think we’d see off-line cars on the Southern in bulk lime service? Does anyone know….would box cars without doors be accepted in interchange in 1934?

The cars with no doors were, I expect, only used for on-line shipments in bulk. That is all I ever saw in those cars in the 70s.

Ike



On Sep 9, 2020, at 10:22 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Ike,

Here is the list of cars transporting Lime in 1934 on the W-S division (notes on car type are based upon car number from Al Brown's first try and are preliminary and not guaranteed, tons are listed by Conductor Snow and are just copied verbatim):

<int_1.png>

There were two SU 36' Southern cars (out of 7000+ in database) listed by Conductor Snow with "wood" as contents but that does NOT mean pulp wood. In the 20's and early 30's it is my understanding that there were no pulpwood racks on the Southern.  So how did pulpwood get transported prior to racks?   Low side gons?  The W-S database from Conductor Snow cannot tell us.

As for hides, there were a few more as North Wilkesboro had a tannery and I think a shoe factory (at least they got leather dye in tank cars from a shoe dye firm as well as hides):

<int_2.png>

Dave

Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 8:44:31 AM, you wrote:


I am certain Central of Georgia box cars, without doors, were used in lime service. I have taken, but not found, photos of either CG or Southern cars carrying lime but I will keep looking. The Hayne Shop records show some 50' cars in lime service but they may have been roof hatch cars.

One reason why I sure 40' cars were used is because seeing box cars with no doors was unusual. There is no official drawing but the Central applied a small (3" letters?) stencil to the right of the door that said something like "lime service, no doors, do not bad order".

Bulk fertilizer or untreated hides ("tankage") were supposed to be shipped only in the lowest class box cars as they contaminated the car. Box cars at that point were one step from the scrap line. As no "modifications" were done, there are no shop records or car assignments that tell us which cars were in that kind of service. Given the condition of the cars, I suspect they were not in that service very long.

I am not aware of box cars being used for pulpwood although "never say never". While shortages of wood racks were not uncommon, unloading facilities at mills would have had a difficult time dealing with box cars. Even with inexpensive labor, the time to load and unload box cars by hand would have made it uneconomical.

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

521 - 540 of 1897