Date   

locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

No doubt you are correct but I cannot find anything in the archives (that we have scanned) to provide more information about SR Mountains to Jesup. There must be something, so we’ll keep looking.

Jesup sounds more likely than Brunswick for 4-8-2s on freight. I don’t think Brunswick was a large port during WWII needing large power. Jesup had a small yard across the ACL main from the depot that was used for interchange traffic although the trackage rights agreement put some pretty strict limits on where the freight could go. (About the only concession the SR got in the SCL merger was to allow ACL/SR interchange for long-haul traffic at Jacksonville rather than Tifton, GA.) During the War, the Southern paid as much, or more, to maintain the line based on traffic, from Hardeeville to Jacksonville as the ACL. Was the reason for the large engine on freights to Jesup for connections to SR freight trains passing Jesup on the ACL? (I will ask Sonny Riggs if he has any info.)

A “second section” article of the ACL/SR trackage rights between Hardeeville and Jax is “under construction” for a future TIES. Much more information on the original trackage rights to Yamassee, SC, Central Jct and the CofG into the port at Savannah and Jesup have been located in the SR Presidents’ files. Two pages from one item that has come to light are attached. The entire document illustrates Hardeeville-Jacksonville (actually two agreements, N and S of Savannah) was more than just trackage rights. I don’t know the “legal” meaning of “joint account” but here is the cover and sheet 18 of a document showing the track layout in detail. The entire 37 page doc could be printed or sold as an ePub if people were interested?

Ike



On Sep 17, 2020, at 12:28 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Ike, we are talking about Ts class engines painted black used for a limited time on a pair of freight trains between Macon and Jesup which ran at night. Interestingly, the black paint on former passenger steam engines put in freight service is only a couple of months away from the decision to paint all Southern diesels in the green scheme. If Southern wanted to present a modern image, green and gold on a steam locomotive pulling freight was0 probably not a way to convey that.

I see no reason to question Shelby Lowe on this one.

Jack Wyatt


On Thursday, September 17, 2020, 12:07:38 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:





Jack:

Check out the article on Jesup that ran in TIES. Note the photos of the engines at Jesup….no 4-8-2s! Would it be logical to run a Ts to Jesup, cut it off and exchange it for a Pacific for the run to Jax? The 1951 “Guide” describes the KC-Fla Spl as “diesel powered KC-Miami, the other passenger train on the Brunswick line then was the FM powered “Cracker”.

“Never say never” but maybe Sonny Riggs can comment (most of the Jesup article photos came from him). If the 4-8-2s ran through to Jacksonville, does anyone have a photo of one of them at Simpson Yd or JT?

Ike


On Sep 17, 2020, at 7:22 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Ike,

Macon -Brunswick got upgraded circa WWII. The May 12, 1946 Atlanta Division ETT shows 314,800 lbs. total weight 4-8-2 Mountain engines being allowed.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:07:10 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:





The Southern had to use its Atlantics (4-4-2) then light Pacifics on the Brunswick line south of Macon because of the track. The Atlanta-Jacksonville train that ran on the Coast Line from Jesup exchanged engines (Ps-4s with ACL train control equipment) at Jesup for the run to J’ville. For the northbound trips the larger engine was cut off, turned and serviced by the ACL.

I suspect a Ts never operated south of Macon on the Brunswick line. Also the GS&F was not noted for heavy rail, there are quite a few photos of 4-8-2s in the SRHA archives but none of them were taken south of Macon. I realize that’s not definitive but logical considering track conditions on the GS&F. When the Southern was running the Midwestern-Fla passenger trains most went on the ACL south of Hardeeville.

Ike

PS The Florida Sunbeam article is about finished, Larry Goolsby has helped with photos of the Sunbeam on the SAL (it ran via Hampton, FL). If anyone has any photos of the train anywhere and can let us use them, that’d be great.



On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:51 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Bill,

Oscar Kimsey wrote about them in one of the issues of SRHS's Southern Rails. I think it was four or five Ts class engines in total. I don't remember whether a Ts-1 got the black treatment. If I recall, Atlanta-Brunswick was one of the routes which they were used on.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 06:33:12 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:





In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines.

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them.

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer





























locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

Carl Ardrey
 

Tonnage ratings south of Macon are pretty high as grades are negligible being below the fall line.
CEA

On Sep 17, 2020, at 12:44 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Jack:

Check out the article on Jesup that ran in TIES. Note the photos of the engines at Jesup….no 4-8-2s! Would it be logical to run a Ts to Jesup, cut it off and exchange it for a Pacific for the run to Jax? The 1951 “Guide” describes the KC-Fla Spl as “diesel powered KC-Miami, the other passenger train on the Brunswick line then was the FM powered “Cracker”.

“Never say never” but maybe Sonny Riggs can comment (most of the Jesup article photos came from him). If the 4-8-2s ran through to Jacksonville, does anyone have a photo of one of them at Simpson Yd or JT?

Ike


On Sep 17, 2020, at 7:22 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Ike,

Macon -Brunswick got upgraded circa WWII. The May 12, 1946 Atlanta Division ETT shows 314,800 lbs. total weight 4-8-2 Mountain engines being allowed.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:07:10 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:





The Southern had to use its Atlantics (4-4-2) then light Pacifics on the Brunswick line south of Macon because of the track. The Atlanta-Jacksonville train that ran on the Coast Line from Jesup exchanged engines (Ps-4s with ACL train control equipment) at Jesup for the run to J’ville. For the northbound trips the larger engine was cut off, turned and serviced by the ACL.

I suspect a Ts never operated south of Macon on the Brunswick line. Also the GS&F was not noted for heavy rail, there are quite a few photos of 4-8-2s in the SRHA archives but none of them were taken south of Macon. I realize that’s not definitive but logical considering track conditions on the GS&F. When the Southern was running the Midwestern-Fla passenger trains most went on the ACL south of Hardeeville.

Ike

PS The Florida Sunbeam article is about finished, Larry Goolsby has helped with photos of the Sunbeam on the SAL (it ran via Hampton, FL). If anyone has any photos of the train anywhere and can let us use them, that’d be great.



On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:51 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Bill,

Oscar Kimsey wrote about them in one of the issues of SRHS's Southern Rails. I think it was four or five Ts class engines in total. I don't remember whether a Ts-1 got the black treatment. If I recall, Atlanta-Brunswick was one of the routes which they were used on.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 06:33:12 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@mindspring.com> wrote:





In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines.

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them.

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer























locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

C J Wyatt
 

Ike, we are talking about Ts class engines painted black used for a limited time on a pair of freight trains between Macon and Jesup which ran at night. Interestingly, the black paint on former passenger steam engines put in freight service is only a couple of months away from the decision to paint all Southern diesels in the green scheme. If Southern wanted to present a modern image, green and gold on a steam locomotive pulling freight was probably not a way to convey that.

I see no reason to question Shelby Lowe on this one.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, September 17, 2020, 12:07:38 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:





Jack:

Check out the article on Jesup that ran in TIES. Note the photos of the engines at Jesup….no 4-8-2s! Would it be logical to run a Ts to Jesup, cut it off and exchange it for a Pacific for the run to Jax? The 1951 “Guide” describes the KC-Fla Spl as “diesel powered KC-Miami, the other passenger train on the Brunswick line then was the FM powered “Cracker”.

“Never say never” but maybe Sonny Riggs can comment (most of the Jesup article photos came from him). If the 4-8-2s ran through to Jacksonville, does anyone have a photo of one of them at Simpson Yd or JT?

Ike


On Sep 17, 2020, at 7:22 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Ike,

Macon -Brunswick got upgraded circa WWII. The May 12, 1946 Atlanta Division ETT shows 314,800 lbs. total weight 4-8-2 Mountain engines being allowed.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:07:10 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:





The Southern had to use its Atlantics (4-4-2) then light Pacifics on the Brunswick line south of Macon because of the track. The Atlanta-Jacksonville train that ran on the Coast Line from Jesup exchanged engines (Ps-4s with ACL train control equipment) at Jesup for the run to J’ville. For the northbound trips the larger engine was cut off, turned and serviced by the ACL.

I suspect a Ts never operated south of Macon on the Brunswick line. Also the GS&F was not noted for heavy rail, there are quite a few photos of 4-8-2s in the SRHA archives but none of them were taken south of Macon. I realize that’s not definitive but logical considering track conditions on the GS&F. When the Southern was running the Midwestern-Fla passenger trains most went on the ACL south of Hardeeville.

Ike

PS The Florida Sunbeam article is about finished, Larry Goolsby has helped with photos of the Sunbeam on the SAL (it ran via Hampton, FL). If anyone has any photos of the train anywhere and can let us use them, that’d be great.



On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:51 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Bill,

Oscar Kimsey wrote about them in one of the issues of SRHS's Southern Rails. I think it was four or five Ts class engines in total. I don't remember whether a Ts-1 got the black treatment. If I recall, Atlanta-Brunswick was one of the routes which they were used on.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 06:33:12 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@mindspring.com> wrote:





In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines.

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them.

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

Check out the article on Jesup that ran in TIES. Note the photos of the engines at Jesup….no 4-8-2s! Would it be logical to run a Ts to Jesup, cut it off and exchange it for a Pacific for the run to Jax? The 1951 “Guide” describes the KC-Fla Spl as “diesel powered KC-Miami, the other passenger train on the Brunswick line then was the FM powered “Cracker”.

“Never say never” but maybe Sonny Riggs can comment (most of the Jesup article photos came from him). If the 4-8-2s ran through to Jacksonville, does anyone have a photo of one of them at Simpson Yd or JT?

Ike

On Sep 17, 2020, at 7:22 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Ike,

Macon -Brunswick got upgraded circa WWII. The May 12, 1946 Atlanta Division ETT shows 314,800 lbs. total weight 4-8-2 Mountain engines being allowed.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:07:10 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:





The Southern had to use its Atlantics (4-4-2) then light Pacifics on the Brunswick line south of Macon because of the track. The Atlanta-Jacksonville train that ran on the Coast Line from Jesup exchanged engines (Ps-4s with ACL train control equipment) at Jesup for the run to J’ville. For the northbound trips the larger engine was cut off, turned and serviced by the ACL.

I suspect a Ts never operated south of Macon on the Brunswick line. Also the GS&F was not noted for heavy rail, there are quite a few photos of 4-8-2s in the SRHA archives but none of them were taken south of Macon. I realize that’s not definitive but logical considering track conditions on the GS&F. When the Southern was running the Midwestern-Fla passenger trains most went on the ACL south of Hardeeville.

Ike

PS The Florida Sunbeam article is about finished, Larry Goolsby has helped with photos of the Sunbeam on the SAL (it ran via Hampton, FL). If anyone has any photos of the train anywhere and can let us use them, that’d be great.



On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:51 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Bill,

Oscar Kimsey wrote about them in one of the issues of SRHS's Southern Rails. I think it was four or five Ts class engines in total. I don't remember whether a Ts-1 got the black treatment. If I recall, Atlanta-Brunswick was one of the routes which they were used on.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 06:33:12 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@mindspring.com> wrote:





In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines.

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them.

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

Joel Walker
 

Does anyone have a handle on how Southern numbered their combination cars and day coaches at the turn of the century? Pullman Sleepers, I know, had names. 
Also, is anyone aware of any diagrams the archives might have on the interior of a typical day coach around 1900?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Joel Walker


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

C J Wyatt
 

Ike,

Macon -Brunswick got upgraded circa WWII. The May 12, 1946 Atlanta Division ETT shows 314,800 lbs. total weight 4-8-2 Mountain engines being allowed.

Jack Wyatt

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:07:10 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:





The Southern had to use its Atlantics (4-4-2) then light Pacifics on the Brunswick line south of Macon because of the track. The Atlanta-Jacksonville train that ran on the Coast Line from Jesup exchanged engines (Ps-4s with ACL train control equipment) at Jesup for the run to J’ville. For the northbound trips the larger engine was cut off, turned and serviced by the ACL.

I suspect a Ts never operated south of Macon on the Brunswick line. Also the GS&F was not noted for heavy rail, there are quite a few photos of 4-8-2s in the SRHA archives but none of them were taken south of Macon. I realize that’s not definitive but logical considering track conditions on the GS&F. When the Southern was running the Midwestern-Fla passenger trains most went on the ACL south of Hardeeville.

Ike

PS The Florida Sunbeam article is about finished, Larry Goolsby has helped with photos of the Sunbeam on the SAL (it ran via Hampton, FL). If anyone has any photos of the train anywhere and can let us use them, that’d be great.



On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:51 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Bill,

Oscar Kimsey wrote about them in one of the issues of SRHS's Southern Rails. I think it was four or five Ts class engines in total. I don't remember whether a Ts-1 got the black treatment. If I recall, Atlanta-Brunswick was one of the routes which they were used on.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 06:33:12 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@mindspring.com> wrote:





In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines.

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them.

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

George Eichelberger
 

The Southern had to use its Atlantics (4-4-2) then light Pacifics on the Brunswick line south of Macon because of the track. The Atlanta-Jacksonville train that ran on the Coast Line from Jesup exchanged engines (Ps-4s with ACL train control equipment) at Jesup for the run to J’ville. For the northbound trips the larger engine was cut off, turned and serviced by the ACL.

I suspect a Ts never operated south of Macon on the Brunswick line. Also the GS&F was not noted for heavy rail, there are quite a few photos of 4-8-2s in the SRHA archives but none of them were taken south of Macon. I realize that’s not definitive but logical considering track conditions on the GS&F. When the Southern was running the Midwestern-Fla passenger trains most went on the ACL south of Hardeeville.

Ike

PS The Florida Sunbeam article is about finished, Larry Goolsby has helped with photos of the Sunbeam on the SAL (it ran via Hampton, FL). If anyone has any photos of the train anywhere and can let us use them, that’d be great.

On Sep 16, 2020, at 7:51 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Bill,

Oscar Kimsey wrote about them in one of the issues of SRHS's Southern Rails. I think it was four or five Ts class engines in total. I don't remember whether a Ts-1 got the black treatment. If I recall, Atlanta-Brunswick was one of the routes which they were used on.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 06:33:12 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@mindspring.com> wrote:





In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines.

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them.

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

C J Wyatt
 

OK, found it. Southern Rails, issue No. 28, Spring,1990, page 4. Article was actually by Shelby F. Lowe and is titled "Black Beauties.

Engines were nos. 1453, 1454, and  1466, all pictured. Intended use was for nos. 52 and 52 between Macon and Jesup.


Jack Wyatt

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 09:18:56 PM EDT, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:





Bill,

Oscar Kimsey wrote about them in one of the issues of SRHS's Southern Rails. I think it was four or five Ts class engines in total. I don't remember whether a Ts-1 got the black treatment. If I recall, Atlanta-Brunswick was one of the routes which they were used on.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 06:33:12 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@mindspring.com> wrote:





In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

Ed Mims
 

Did the black 4-8-2s have a signal line and steam connector on their tender or just a signal line (and brake pipe connection)on the front? If not they were in freight service only.

 

Ed Mims


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

C J Wyatt
 

Bill,

Oscar Kimsey wrote about them in one of the issues of SRHS's Southern Rails. I think it was four or five Ts class engines in total. I don't remember whether a Ts-1 got the black treatment. If I recall, Atlanta-Brunswick was one of the routes which they were used on.

Jack Wyatt

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 06:33:12 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@mindspring.com> wrote:





In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

Bill Schafer
 

Great, Rick. Thanks.

On Sep 16, 2020, at 17:57, rwbrv4 via groups.io <Rwbrv4@...> wrote:

Ben Robert's told me there were 3..Some where I have the pictures he gave me.  Ill try to find them.
Rick




On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 Bill Schafer <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> wrote:

In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

rwbrv4
 

Ben Robert's told me there were 3..Some where I have the pictures he gave me.  Ill try to find them.
Rick




On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 Bill Schafer <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> wrote:

In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

Don Yelverton
 

Bill,
Shelby Lowe once told me that these along with several Pacifics and switchers painted in this scheme with "Southern" on the tender sides rather than the large numerals were used in passenger service. Of course the others didn't have the dog house. This was basically the early passenger scheme. They looked great. I assume with the dog house they could have been used in both passenger and freight service.

I actually bought one of the models of an HO scale PSC Pacific with the 10K tender for this purpose but sold it before I got chance to have it painted.

Best regards,

Don Yelverton


On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 04:24:47 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Black SOU 4-8-2s in the 1940s

Bill Schafer
 

In the SRHA Archives, we have photographs of at least two Ts-class Mountains, 1453 and 1454, in black paint with dog houses on the tender decks. These are the only two 4-8-2s I know of that got the black treatment in the 1940s. In each case, "Southern" was spelled out on the tender sides instead of large numerals typical of freight engines. 

Questions:

* Does anyone know of any other SOU Mountains that were painted black just before dieselization?
* Has anyone seen photos of any black Mountains with large numerals on the tenders?
* Does anyone have a photo to share of black 4-8-2s from the 1940s other than 1453 and 1454?
* What service were the black 4-8-2s used in? We have seen a photo of 1454 (black) on a head-end heavy passenger train but none in freight service.

Of course, I haven't been to the Archives recently. It's possible more photos of black 4-8-2s have been unearthed and I just don't know about them. 

Thanks.

--Bill Schafer


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

Charles Powell
 

I grew up next to the K&0 line west of Knoxville in the early 60s and remember the boxcars with no doors. The lime was piled in bulk in each end of the car. Seemed like it was seasonal as in early spring time and there would be blocks of cars leaving a white cloud in their wake. A lot of it came as a byproduct of the zinc mines up north of Knoxville around Mascot, TN. Another service for old boxcars on their way out was cotton seed service. Once the car was loaded with cotton seed the oil would soak into the lining and contaminate other products loaded in the cars later. 


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

John M. Ware, P.E.
 

Central of Georgia Pulpwood Cars (Box Cars)

   CG converted approx 1300 36 ft Vent Box cars to Pulpwood rack cars in 1953=/-Information on the conversion is featured in the Jan-Mar 2007 issue of The Right Way magazine. The Customer Load requirements are in the July-Sept 2009 issue.

 

John Ware

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2020 8:45 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

 

I am certain Central of Georgia box cars, without doors, were used in lime service. I have taken, but not found, photos of either CG or Southern cars carrying lime but I will keep looking. The Hayne Shop records show some 50' cars in lime service but they may have been roof hatch cars.

One reason why I sure 40' cars were used is because seeing box cars with no doors was unusual. There is no official drawing but the Central applied a small (3" letters?) stencil to the right of the door that said something like "lime service, no doors, do not bad order".

Bulk fertilizer or untreated hides ("tankage") were supposed to be shipped only in the lowest class box cars as they contaminated the car. Box cars at that point were one step from the scrap line. As no "modifications" were done, there are no shop records or car assignments that tell us which cars were in that kind of service. Given the condition of the cars, I suspect they were not in that service very long.

I am not aware of box cars being used for pulpwood although "never say never". While shortages of wood racks were not uncommon, unloading facilities at mills would have had a difficult time dealing with box cars. Even with inexpensive labor, the time to load and unload box cars by hand would have made it uneconomical.

Ike


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Regarding the early pulpwood rack conversions I was wrong on my first dates.  Here is a spreadsheet from my pulpwood clinic
Southern Ry Pulpwood Racks -  Flat car conversions
Car No. Series No. of Cars Converted From Blt. Date In. Length Yr. Converted Comments
115000-116599 (SR) 267 115XXX-116XXX 40 ft flat cars 1926 35'-2" 1934-1937 For Champion Paper, Canton NC
117500-117999(SR) 201 117XXX flat cars 1926 35'-2" 1934-1937 For Champion Paper, Canton NC
325000-325579(NO&NE) 30 325XXX flat cars 1926 35'-2" 1934-1937 For Masonite Corp, Laurel MS
300230-300472(AGS) 40 300XXX flat cars 1926 35'-2" 1934-1937 For Gulf States Paper, Tuscaloosa AL
Southern Ry Pulpwood Racks -  SU Boxcar conversions
Car No. Series No. of Cars Converted From Blt. Date In. Length Yr. Converted Comments
114000-114999 (SR) 1000 SU boxcars 1922 35'-4" 1940-1951 ** 100 in '40, 275 by '42, 1000 by'46
124000-125559 (SR) 1500 SU boxcars 1925 36'-4" 1940-1951 83 by '47, 1123 by July 1950
301000-301099 (AGS) 100 SU boxcars 1926 36'-4" 1940-1951 100 by July 1950
326000-326009 (NO&NE) 10 SU boxcars 1927 36'-4" 1940-1951 10 by April 1951
414000-414099 (GSF) 100 SU boxcars 1928 36'-4" 1940-1951 100 by April '51
** No conversions were done during WWII
--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

A&Y Dave in MD
 

No description on the way the lime was contained.  No idea if it was bulk or bagged. 

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Sep 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

Do the switch lists describe if the lime is bagged? I don’t think we’d see off-line cars on the Southern in bulk lime service? Does anyone know….would box cars without doors be accepted in interchange in 1934?

The cars with no doors were, I expect, only used for on-line shipments in bulk. That is all I ever saw in those cars in the 70s.

Ike



On Sep 9, 2020, at 10:22 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Ike,

Here is the list of cars transporting Lime in 1934 on the W-S division (notes on car type are based upon car number from Al Brown's first try and are preliminary and not guaranteed, tons are listed by Conductor Snow and are just copied verbatim):

<int_1.png>

There were two SU 36' Southern cars (out of 7000+ in database) listed by Conductor Snow with "wood" as contents but that does NOT mean pulp wood. In the 20's and early 30's it is my understanding that there were no pulpwood racks on the Southern.  So how did pulpwood get transported prior to racks?   Low side gons?  The W-S database from Conductor Snow cannot tell us.

As for hides, there were a few more as North Wilkesboro had a tannery and I think a shoe factory (at least they got leather dye in tank cars from a shoe dye firm as well as hides):

<int_2.png>

Dave

Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 8:44:31 AM, you wrote:


I am certain Central of Georgia box cars, without doors, were used in lime service. I have taken, but not found, photos of either CG or Southern cars carrying lime but I will keep looking. The Hayne Shop records show some 50' cars in lime service but they may have been roof hatch cars.

One reason why I sure 40' cars were used is because seeing box cars with no doors was unusual. There is no official drawing but the Central applied a small (3" letters?) stencil to the right of the door that said something like "lime service, no doors, do not bad order".

Bulk fertilizer or untreated hides ("tankage") were supposed to be shipped only in the lowest class box cars as they contaminated the car. Box cars at that point were one step from the scrap line. As no "modifications" were done, there are no shop records or car assignments that tell us which cars were in that kind of service. Given the condition of the cars, I suspect they were not in that service very long.

I am not aware of box cars being used for pulpwood although "never say never". While shortages of wood racks were not uncommon, unloading facilities at mills would have had a difficult time dealing with box cars. Even with inexpensive labor, the time to load and unload box cars by hand would have made it uneconomical.

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Ike I think lots of modelers would. From what I’ve found SR started building pulpwood racks from the 115XXX, 117XXX flat cars in the 1920’s. By the late 1940’s and 1950’s I doubt much SR pulpwood moved in boxcars. 
I’ve seen no evidence of it but I’ll bet there was some in box or stock cars when convenient or necessary 
Fenton 


On Sep 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

Do the switch lists describe if the lime is bagged? I don’t think we’d see off-line cars on the Southern in bulk lime service? Does anyone know….would box cars without doors be accepted in interchange in 1934?

The cars with no doors were, I expect, only used for on-line shipments in bulk. That is all I ever saw in those cars in the 70s.

Ike



On Sep 9, 2020, at 10:22 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Ike,

Here is the list of cars transporting Lime in 1934 on the W-S division (notes on car type are based upon car number from Al Brown's first try and are preliminary and not guaranteed, tons are listed by Conductor Snow and are just copied verbatim):

<int_1.png>

There were two SU 36' Southern cars (out of 7000+ in database) listed by Conductor Snow with "wood" as contents but that does NOT mean pulp wood. In the 20's and early 30's it is my understanding that there were no pulpwood racks on the Southern.  So how did pulpwood get transported prior to racks?   Low side gons?  The W-S database from Conductor Snow cannot tell us.

As for hides, there were a few more as North Wilkesboro had a tannery and I think a shoe factory (at least they got leather dye in tank cars from a shoe dye firm as well as hides):

<int_2.png>

Dave

Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 8:44:31 AM, you wrote:


I am certain Central of Georgia box cars, without doors, were used in lime service. I have taken, but not found, photos of either CG or Southern cars carrying lime but I will keep looking. The Hayne Shop records show some 50' cars in lime service but they may have been roof hatch cars.

One reason why I sure 40' cars were used is because seeing box cars with no doors was unusual. There is no official drawing but the Central applied a small (3" letters?) stencil to the right of the door that said something like "lime service, no doors, do not bad order".

Bulk fertilizer or untreated hides ("tankage") were supposed to be shipped only in the lowest class box cars as they contaminated the car. Box cars at that point were one step from the scrap line. As no "modifications" were done, there are no shop records or car assignments that tell us which cars were in that kind of service. Given the condition of the cars, I suspect they were not in that service very long.

I am not aware of box cars being used for pulpwood although "never say never". While shortages of wood racks were not uncommon, unloading facilities at mills would have had a difficult time dealing with box cars. Even with inexpensive labor, the time to load and unload box cars by hand would have made it uneconomical.

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Pulpwood and Line In Boxcars

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

Do the switch lists describe if the lime is bagged? I don’t think we’d see off-line cars on the Southern in bulk lime service? Does anyone know….would box cars without doors be accepted in interchange in 1934?

The cars with no doors were, I expect, only used for on-line shipments in bulk. That is all I ever saw in those cars in the 70s.

Ike



On Sep 9, 2020, at 10:22 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Ike,

Here is the list of cars transporting Lime in 1934 on the W-S division (notes on car type are based upon car number from Al Brown's first try and are preliminary and not guaranteed, tons are listed by Conductor Snow and are just copied verbatim):

<int_1.png>

There were two SU 36' Southern cars (out of 7000+ in database) listed by Conductor Snow with "wood" as contents but that does NOT mean pulp wood. In the 20's and early 30's it is my understanding that there were no pulpwood racks on the Southern.  So how did pulpwood get transported prior to racks?   Low side gons?  The W-S database from Conductor Snow cannot tell us.

As for hides, there were a few more as North Wilkesboro had a tannery and I think a shoe factory (at least they got leather dye in tank cars from a shoe dye firm as well as hides):

<int_2.png>

Dave

Wednesday, September 9, 2020, 8:44:31 AM, you wrote:


I am certain Central of Georgia box cars, without doors, were used in lime service. I have taken, but not found, photos of either CG or Southern cars carrying lime but I will keep looking. The Hayne Shop records show some 50' cars in lime service but they may have been roof hatch cars.

One reason why I sure 40' cars were used is because seeing box cars with no doors was unusual. There is no official drawing but the Central applied a small (3" letters?) stencil to the right of the door that said something like "lime service, no doors, do not bad order".

Bulk fertilizer or untreated hides ("tankage") were supposed to be shipped only in the lowest class box cars as they contaminated the car. Box cars at that point were one step from the scrap line. As no "modifications" were done, there are no shop records or car assignments that tell us which cars were in that kind of service. Given the condition of the cars, I suspect they were not in that service very long.

I am not aware of box cars being used for pulpwood although "never say never". While shortages of wood racks were not uncommon, unloading facilities at mills would have had a difficult time dealing with box cars. Even with inexpensive labor, the time to load and unload box cars by hand would have made it uneconomical.

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

841 - 860 of 2170