Date   

locked Re: original passenger car color

William L Vanderburg
 

In 1916, Charlie Soderstrom joined UPS and selected brown for their uniforms and delivery vehicles. He chose a hue of brown that was similar to “the color used on Pullman rail cars because the color reflected class, elegance, and professionalism – and dirt is less visible on brown uniforms and vehicles,” according to UPS. By 1929 the UPS brown color that you see today was adopted across the company.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 6:48 PM Matt Bumgarner <tarheelpress@...> wrote:
At the SE Narrow Gauge & Shortline Museum, we have been restoring an 1899 narrow gauge baggage car from the WV Midland Rwy.  We found the original specs from the Jackson & Sharpe records, and the color specified was "Pullman", but as we sanded down siding or removed moulding, all we found was a chocolate brown. 

After more research, we found out indeed that the early "Pullman" color was brown, and around 1910 changed to green.

I can't remember the source, but I remember reading that UPS picked their brown color to match the original "Pullman" brown.

Matt Bumgrner

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:57 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I assumed that the Southern Railway System's first passenger car color was similar to Pullman Green. Indeed, in a contract dated May 3, 1895 with Pullman Palace Car Company for new passenger cars, the body color is specified as "Pullman Standard furnished by Sherwin Williams Co". However the "standard" may be something else. Pullman expert Arthur D. Dublin said in his Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook on page 10:

"Until 1900 Pullman cars were painted a rich, thick chocolate brown."

So did Southern in its early days use green or brown? And then we have the question about the color of letters, numbers, and stripes? Gold leaf?

I appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt






















locked Re: original passenger car color

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Jack 

Pullman ( or "Brewster") Green came into use in February 1900;.The old Pullman colour was indeed a dark brown - UPS brown is officially described as "Pullman Brown" so that gives you an idea of the colour. t Pullman Brown was one of the standard shades offered by paint suppliers and by ACF among others and was used by other roads. Paint charts of the 1900s included chips for both "Old Pullman Color" and "New Pullman Color" .     

Lettering may not be your only challenge, though it's worth noting the use of gold leaf and/or gold transfers for first class cars was a very widespread practice. In the 1890s and early 1900s cars were also often liberally decorated with scrollwork and ornate designs in  the corners and very often everywhere else including the trucks and visible parts of the underframe.Things settled down a bit with the changing taste for slightly simpler lines in 1900s, but even some of the simplified schemes must have taken days to apply  While I dont think there is anything specifically Southern available, there are some good photos of cars with these patterns in the Delaware archives Jackson and Sharp collection

Aidrian 

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 7:57 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I assumed that the Southern Railway System's first passenger car color was similar to Pullman Green. Indeed, in a contract dated May 3, 1895 with Pullman Palace Car Company for new passenger cars, the body color is specified as "Pullman Standard furnished by Sherwin Williams Co". However the "standard" may be something else. Pullman expert Arthur D. Dublin said in his Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook on page 10:

"Until 1900 Pullman cars were painted a rich, thick chocolate brown."

So did Southern in its early days use green or brown? And then we have the question about the color of letters, numbers, and stripes? Gold leaf?

I appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt


locked Re: original passenger car color

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Matt,

I had heard the UPS story and that took place in 1916. Dublin said that Pullman started developing its green in 1900. Maybe it took ten years to evolve.

Brown sounds good to me. Now if I can get some evidence for the lettering.

Jack

On Thursday, September 24, 2020, 08:21:35 PM EDT, Matt Bumgarner <tarheelpress@gmail.com> wrote:





At the SE Narrow Gauge & Shortline Museum, we have been restoring an 1899 narrow gauge baggage car from the WV Midland Rwy.  We found the original specs from the Jackson & Sharpe records, and the color specified was "Pullman", but as we sanded down siding or removed moulding, all we found was a chocolate brown. 

After more research, we found out indeed that the early "Pullman" color was brown, and around 1910 changed to green.

I can't remember the source, but I remember reading that UPS picked their brown color to match the original "Pullman" brown.

Matt Bumgrner

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:57 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I assumed that the Southern Railway System's first passenger car color was similar to Pullman Green. Indeed, in a contract dated May 3, 1895 with Pullman Palace Car Company for new passenger cars, the body color is specified as "Pullman Standard furnished by Sherwin Williams Co". However the "standard" may be something else. Pullman expert Arthur D. Dublin said in his Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook on page 10:

"Until 1900 Pullman cars were painted a rich, thick chocolate brown."

So did Southern in its early days use green or brown? And then we have the question about the color of letters, numbers, and stripes? Gold leaf?

I appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt




locked Re: original passenger car color

Matt Bumgarner
 

At the SE Narrow Gauge & Shortline Museum, we have been restoring an 1899 narrow gauge baggage car from the WV Midland Rwy.  We found the original specs from the Jackson & Sharpe records, and the color specified was "Pullman", but as we sanded down siding or removed moulding, all we found was a chocolate brown. 

After more research, we found out indeed that the early "Pullman" color was brown, and around 1910 changed to green.

I can't remember the source, but I remember reading that UPS picked their brown color to match the original "Pullman" brown.

Matt Bumgrner

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:57 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I assumed that the Southern Railway System's first passenger car color was similar to Pullman Green. Indeed, in a contract dated May 3, 1895 with Pullman Palace Car Company for new passenger cars, the body color is specified as "Pullman Standard furnished by Sherwin Williams Co". However the "standard" may be something else. Pullman expert Arthur D. Dublin said in his Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook on page 10:

"Until 1900 Pullman cars were painted a rich, thick chocolate brown."

So did Southern in its early days use green or brown? And then we have the question about the color of letters, numbers, and stripes? Gold leaf?

I appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt


locked original passenger car color

C J Wyatt
 

I assumed that the Southern Railway System's first passenger car color was similar to Pullman Green. Indeed, in a contract dated May 3, 1895 with Pullman Palace Car Company for new passenger cars, the body color is specified as "Pullman Standard furnished by Sherwin Williams Co". However the "standard" may be something else. Pullman expert Arthur D. Dublin said in his Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook on page 10:

"Until 1900 Pullman cars were painted a rich, thick chocolate brown."

So did Southern in its early days use green or brown? And then we have the question about the color of letters, numbers, and stripes? Gold leaf?

I appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt


locked Jim Crow in Alabama

George Eichelberger
 

One of the “passenger train” files I found in the President’s Files in the archives this past Sunday (Box 509A, File 7) was only about passenger segregation 1945-1950.

The SouthernRailway.io list has included several items on “Jim Crow” in the past. Here is a scan of Alabama PSC Rule T-18 from 1946.

Ike

PS Could I ask for some feedback on the contents of the list, particularly items from the SRHA archives, either to the list or as “private” messages?
Also, what are the opinions about providing archives material to non-SRHA members, here or in any form?



locked Re: Mixed Trains

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Not a great photo, but there is a 1937 photo of a mixed train on the A&Y at Pleasant Garden, NC:
http://southern-railway.railfan.net/ay/towns/cf077.3_pleasant_garden/pleasant_garden.htm 

ETT 18 dated November 1937 suggests that was Train 53 sometime about 12:25pm.
http://southern-railway.railfan.net/ay/timetables/A&Y-ETT-18-1937-11-20.pdf 

Kevin von der Lippe shared the scan of the photo and we obtained permission to post it.  We could follow up to get a higher resolution scan or maybe the print from Ms. Hice.

Dave

Thursday, September 24, 2020, 8:30:36 AM, you wrote:


As we sort through, and scan, the passenger train folders in the SR Presidents’ files, there are a number of documents on mixed trains.

As the subject would make an interesting TIES article, does anyone on the list have any photos or recollections of Southern’s mixed trains? Examples of what has been scanned so far include:

1949-7-14 GS&F mixed train No 26
Tr 71-170 Coryton-Cumberland Gap mixed
Tr 76-77 Clinton-Jellico, TN
Tr 101-102 Mixed Knoxville-Maryville
Tr 122, 123, 124, 125 Cochran-Hawkinsville, GA
Tr 141-142 Union-Lockhart, SC

The archives contain a floor plan of the bay window cabs modified with passenger seats for mixed train service on the GS&F, including the “Jim Crow” arrangement with white and colored passengers on both side of the bay window area.

If you can help, please contact SRHA at
archives@... or editor@...

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Mixed Trains

George Eichelberger
 

As we sort through, and scan, the passenger train folders in the SR Presidents’ files, there are a number of documents on mixed trains.

As the subject would make an interesting TIES article, does anyone on the list have any photos or recollections of Southern’s mixed trains? Examples of what has been scanned so far include:

1949-7-14 GS&F mixed train No 26
Tr 71-170 Coryton-Cumberland Gap mixed
Tr 76-77 Clinton-Jellico, TN
Tr 101-102 Mixed Knoxville-Maryville
Tr 122, 123, 124, 125 Cochran-Hawkinsville, GA
Tr 141-142 Union-Lockhart, SC

The archives contain a floor plan of the bay window cabs modified with passenger seats for mixed train service on the GS&F, including the “Jim Crow” arrangement with white and colored passengers on both side of the bay window area.

If you can help, please contact SRHA at archives@... or editor@...

Ike


locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

C J Wyatt
 

Ike,

I believe that the Buhoup vestibule was a wide vestibule design. The vestibule in your drawing of the Southern Railway coach is a Pullman narrow. See attached. Pullman narrow vestibules were specified in the contract dated December 17, 1894 between Southern Railway and Pullman Palace car Company, lot 2089 for 2 vestibuled coaches <nos. 1200-1201>.

Jack Wyatt

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020, 03:44:41 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:





Joel:

Another good subject for research!

The only thing I can say for sure about “smoking rooms” is that they were only in the “gents” end of the car during this time period. I expect that corresponded to the social mores of the time.

The filename does not say “floor plan” so I did not find/post it earlier. I’ve attached a much reduced size and resolution scan of drawing 2-A-17 dated April 17, 1895 of a standard 57’ coach that includes a floor plan.

The drawing may (!) be in the same category I mentioned earlier but in any case, it is a “work of art” on its own. (Note: it is a very early example of a car with a closed (Beauhop?) vestibule.)

Ike


locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

C J Wyatt
 

When the Vestibule Limited was wrecked at Bluff City, Tennessee in October 1894, two coaches were destroyed. Southern Railway ordered two coaches from Pullman on an expedited basis using  spec's from Pullman. These coaches became Nos. 1200-1201. Southern liked the coaches so much that they sent No. 1200 to DC and had a draftsman make drawings of the car to be to be used in future requests for bids. See attached memo's. This drawing would be of No. 1200. The design with minor modifications became Southern's standard coach until 1901 when the coach design was lengthen from 57' to 66' over end sills.

Jack Wyatt

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020, 03:44:41 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:





Joel:

Another good subject for research!

The only thing I can say for sure about “smoking rooms” is that they were only in the “gents” end of the car during this time period. I expect that corresponded to the social mores of the time.

The filename does not say “floor plan” so I did not find/post it earlier. I’ve attached a much reduced size and resolution scan of drawing 2-A-17 dated April 17, 1895 of a standard 57’ coach that includes a floor plan.

The drawing may (!) be in the same category I mentioned earlier but in any case, it is a “work of art” on its own. (Note: it is a very early example of a car with a closed (Beauhop?) vestibule.)

Ike



On Sep 22, 2020, at 11:01 AM, Joel Walker <loneloper@gmail.com> wrote:

Ike,
Question about the P and B car.  I noticed in the diagram that there is a smoking room. If the car was also serving as 2nd class accommodations, was smoking only allowed in the smoking room?  Twenty years prior, in an 1879 Civil Rights case on the Memphis and Charleston Railroad (Robinson v. M & C RR), the second-class car is referred to as the 'smoking car' which would imply the passengers were emitting about as much smoke as the engine was (an exaggeration). Any idea on what the policy on smoking was in 1900?
Joel

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 9:40 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Joel:

I’m sure the drawing is representative of Southern “combines” of the period but it should not be associated with any specific order or car numbers without more research.

When I first started assembling the drawings and data to produce the Southern wood and steel frame freight car passenger car era books, I attempted to “match” the various General Arrangement drawings in the SRHA archives with specific cars, or series of cars. The Gen. Arrt. drawings of that period tend to include notes and drawing lists that evolved onto different drawings by about 1910-12. It was only by noting drawings listed in the Specs issued by the railroad and comparing that list to the “as built” drawings in the Card Lists (P-Cards) I realized that what had been sent out by the railroad may/may not have been what the car builder actually offered to build.

Part of the reason for differences between the spec and as-built designs came down to the Southern’s desire to maintain as small an inventory of repair parts as possible, to provide parts (new or used) out of its own stocks or to purchase items in bulk for better prices. I did not think of items such as wood for center or side sills as being a “part” but the Southern did. There are multiple pieces of correspondence with car builders discussing the finished size and type of wood they wanted to use vs the specified material. One thing the car builders absolutely hated was that the Southern would have “specialties” such as trucks or brake equipment shipped from its own inventory or drop shipped from the manufacturer on a Southern purchase order.

In other cases, the Southern just wanted to know current prices or what alternates the car builders could offer, a drawing may not be associated with any cars actually purchased.

Southern freight car orders of the time tended to come in groups of cars from any number of builders. In advance of those car orders, the Southern would negotiate prices on the combined quantities of third-party hardware; trucks and brakes were most common, to be used in the new cars. Car specialties were like radios in 1950s automobiles…the dealer wanted to sell them as an add-on to make additional profit. Problem for them was…are they going to “no bid” an order for 500-1,000-1,500 cars?

Ike


On Sep 22, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Joel Walker <loneloper@gmail.com> wrote:

Ike,
Thanks for the scans. The diagram, especially, is useful.
Joel








locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

George Eichelberger
 

Joel:

Another good subject for research!

The only thing I can say for sure about “smoking rooms” is that they were only in the “gents” end of the car during this time period. I expect that corresponded to the social mores of the time.

The filename does not say “floor plan” so I did not find/post it earlier. I’ve attached a much reduced size and resolution scan of drawing 2-A-17 dated April 17, 1895 of a standard 57’ coach that includes a floor plan.

The drawing may (!) be in the same category I mentioned earlier but in any case, it is a “work of art” on its own. (Note: it is a very early example of a car with a closed (Beauhop?) vestibule.)

Ike



On Sep 22, 2020, at 11:01 AM, Joel Walker <loneloper@...> wrote:

Ike,
Question about the P and B car.  I noticed in the diagram that there is a smoking room. If the car was also serving as 2nd class accommodations, was smoking only allowed in the smoking room?  Twenty years prior, in an 1879 Civil Rights case on the Memphis and Charleston Railroad (Robinson v. M & C RR), the second-class car is referred to as the 'smoking car' which would imply the passengers were emitting about as much smoke as the engine was (an exaggeration). Any idea on what the policy on smoking was in 1900?
Joel

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 9:40 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Joel:

I’m sure the drawing is representative of Southern “combines” of the period but it should not be associated with any specific order or car numbers without more research.

When I first started assembling the drawings and data to produce the Southern wood and steel frame freight car passenger car era books, I attempted to “match” the various General Arrangement drawings in the SRHA archives with specific cars, or series of cars. The Gen. Arrt. drawings of that period tend to include notes and drawing lists that evolved onto different drawings by about 1910-12. It was only by noting drawings listed in the Specs issued by the railroad and comparing that list to the “as built” drawings in the Card Lists (P-Cards) I realized that what had been sent out by the railroad may/may not have been what the car builder actually offered to build.

Part of the reason for differences between the spec and as-built designs came down to the Southern’s desire to maintain as small an inventory of repair parts as possible, to provide parts (new or used) out of its own stocks or to purchase items in bulk for better prices. I did not think of items such as wood for center or side sills as being a “part” but the Southern did. There are multiple pieces of correspondence with car builders discussing the finished size and type of wood they wanted to use vs the specified material. One thing the car builders absolutely hated was that the Southern would have “specialties” such as trucks or brake equipment shipped from its own inventory or drop shipped from the manufacturer on a Southern purchase order.

In other cases, the Southern just wanted to know current prices or what alternates the car builders could offer, a drawing may not be associated with any cars actually purchased.

Southern freight car orders of the time tended to come in groups of cars from any number of builders. In advance of those car orders, the Southern would negotiate prices on the combined quantities of third-party hardware; trucks and brakes were most common, to be used in the new cars. Car specialties were like radios in 1950s automobiles…the dealer wanted to sell them as an add-on to make additional profit. Problem for them was…are they going to “no bid” an order for 500-1,000-1,500 cars?

Ike


On Sep 22, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Joel Walker <loneloper@...> wrote:

Ike,
Thanks for the scans. The diagram, especially, is useful.
Joel









locked Railway Mail Service on SR April 1949 vs April 1950

George Eichelberger
 

Sunday’s quick trip to the archives produced a Presidents’ file on the Railway Mail Service I've not seen before. The file is only post-war data but appears to show increasing mail traffic, and revenues from 1947 into the early 50s.

A comparison of mail services between April 1949 and April 1950 is attached. In addition to providing a comprehensive list of Southern trains that carried mail, it shows how important the revenue was from those trains. (The list does not distinguish between storage mail and RPO services. Discontinuing passenger trains and losing mail revenues was of concern to the railroad. The question disappeared as the Post Office shifted mail to trucks.)

This is clearly a subject that needs to be researched!

Ike





locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

Joel Walker
 

Ike,
Question about the P and B car.  I noticed in the diagram that there is a smoking room. If the car was also serving as 2nd class accommodations, was smoking only allowed in the smoking room?  Twenty years prior, in an 1879 Civil Rights case on the Memphis and Charleston Railroad (Robinson v. M & C RR), the second-class car is referred to as the 'smoking car' which would imply the passengers were emitting about as much smoke as the engine was (an exaggeration). Any idea on what the policy on smoking was in 1900?
Joel

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 9:40 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Joel:

I’m sure the drawing is representative of Southern “combines” of the period but it should not be associated with any specific order or car numbers without more research.

When I first started assembling the drawings and data to produce the Southern wood and steel frame freight car passenger car era books, I attempted to “match” the various General Arrangement drawings in the SRHA archives with specific cars, or series of cars. The Gen. Arrt. drawings of that period tend to include notes and drawing lists that evolved onto different drawings by about 1910-12. It was only by noting drawings listed in the Specs issued by the railroad and comparing that list to the “as built” drawings in the Card Lists (P-Cards) I realized that what had been sent out by the railroad may/may not have been what the car builder actually offered to build.

Part of the reason for differences between the spec and as-built designs came down to the Southern’s desire to maintain as small an inventory of repair parts as possible, to provide parts (new or used) out of its own stocks or to purchase items in bulk for better prices. I did not think of items such as wood for center or side sills as being a “part” but the Southern did. There are multiple pieces of correspondence with car builders discussing the finished size and type of wood they wanted to use vs the specified material. One thing the car builders absolutely hated was that the Southern would have “specialties” such as trucks or brake equipment shipped from its own inventory or drop shipped from the manufacturer on a Southern purchase order.

In other cases, the Southern just wanted to know current prices or what alternates the car builders could offer, a drawing may not be associated with any cars actually purchased.

Southern freight car orders of the time tended to come in groups of cars from any number of builders. In advance of those car orders, the Southern would negotiate prices on the combined quantities of third-party hardware; trucks and brakes were most common, to be used in the new cars. Car specialties were like radios in 1950s automobiles…the dealer wanted to sell them as an add-on to make additional profit. Problem for them was…are they going to “no bid” an order for 500-1,000-1,500 cars?

Ike


On Sep 22, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Joel Walker <loneloper@...> wrote:

Ike,
Thanks for the scans. The diagram, especially, is useful.
Joel








locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

George Eichelberger
 

Joel:

I’m sure the drawing is representative of Southern “combines” of the period but it should not be associated with any specific order or car numbers without more research.

When I first started assembling the drawings and data to produce the Southern wood and steel frame freight car passenger car era books, I attempted to “match” the various General Arrangement drawings in the SRHA archives with specific cars, or series of cars. The Gen. Arrt. drawings of that period tend to include notes and drawing lists that evolved onto different drawings by about 1910-12. It was only by noting drawings listed in the Specs issued by the railroad and comparing that list to the “as built” drawings in the Card Lists (P-Cards) I realized that what had been sent out by the railroad may/may not have been what the car builder actually offered to build.

Part of the reason for differences between the spec and as-built designs came down to the Southern’s desire to maintain as small an inventory of repair parts as possible, to provide parts (new or used) out of its own stocks or to purchase items in bulk for better prices. I did not think of items such as wood for center or side sills as being a “part” but the Southern did. There are multiple pieces of correspondence with car builders discussing the finished size and type of wood they wanted to use vs the specified material. One thing the car builders absolutely hated was that the Southern would have “specialties” such as trucks or brake equipment shipped from its own inventory or drop shipped from the manufacturer on a Southern purchase order.

In other cases, the Southern just wanted to know current prices or what alternates the car builders could offer, a drawing may not be associated with any cars actually purchased.

Southern freight car orders of the time tended to come in groups of cars from any number of builders. In advance of those car orders, the Southern would negotiate prices on the combined quantities of third-party hardware; trucks and brakes were most common, to be used in the new cars. Car specialties were like radios in 1950s automobiles…the dealer wanted to sell them as an add-on to make additional profit. Problem for them was…are they going to “no bid” an order for 500-1,000-1,500 cars?

Ike

On Sep 22, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Joel Walker <loneloper@gmail.com> wrote:

Ike,
Thanks for the scans. The diagram, especially, is useful.
Joel


locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

Joel Walker
 

Ike,
Thanks for the scans. The diagram, especially, is useful.
Joel

On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 12:03 AM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Joel, 

Thank you for sharing that information. Interesting project!

The annual report for fiscal year 1900 ending June 30, 1900 shows 9 passenger cars being retired that year which should include the two wrecked cars. I wonder if any SRHA files have the car numbers?

Jack 


On Friday, September 18, 2020, 09:57:17 PM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@...> wrote:





Since Jack asked, I'm not modeling a 1900 Southern train but am working on a book (historical fiction) built around the Camp Creek wreck north of McDonough, Georgia in June of 1900. I have found multiple newspaper accounts (local and national) and have read all thirty of the federal court cases involving the wreck. I have also done genealogical research on most of the victims and the survivors. I know exactly who was on the Pullman Sleeper (the Giraldo) and have a good handle on what the interior was like since all the survivors were on the Sleeper.  But I don't have a lot of information on the first-class day coach or the combination car. 'Little things,' like getting the numbers of the cars correct (at least in the ball park) and what the interiors were like will help me flesh out the story so what all of you have shared with me will be useful.  
Thanks, again.
Joel

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 5:12 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
> Joel,
>
> Look at this site for a source of early Southern Rwy. passenger car diagrams:
>
> http://southern.railfan.net/
>
> Select "Southern Documents", next "Passenger and Business Car Diagrams", and finally "Passenger Car Diagrams 1913".
>
> Are you intending to model a circa 1900 Southern Railway passenger train? If so, are you scratch-building the cars or just looking for ones which are "close"?
>
> I'll be happy to discuss further. 
>
> Jack Wyatt
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, September 18, 2020, 04:25:31 PM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Jack,
> Your information was exactly what I was looking for! 
> Thanks.
> Joel
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 2:12 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
>> Joel,
>>
>> The original renumbering from the predecessor roads had combination passenger and baggage cars in the 500-560 series.
>>
>> Second class passenger coaches (some of which did not last much longer) were 700-772.
>>
>> First class passenger cars were 900-1075.
>>
>> Southern Railway had a couple of first class coaches destroyed in an October 1894 wreck of the Vestibule Ltd. Pullman Palace Car got the contract for  nos. 1200-1201 to replace those cars. Southern liked the cars so it adopted them as its standard. Until 1901, this series was added to reaching 1296 or maybe a bit higher. These were 57' wood cars, but they were ordered with wide vestibules, narrow vestibules, and open platforms according to the current requirements. These are probably the coaches you need to focus on, along with some of the first and second class ones from the predecessors.
>>
>> I am not sure about whether any new combines were built between 1894 and 1901. My notes are in disarray now.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Jack Wyatt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, September 17, 2020, 11:06:43 AM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have a handle on how Southern numbered their combination cars and day coaches at the turn of the century? Pullman Sleepers, I know, had names. 
>> Also, is anyone aware of any diagrams the archives might have on the interior of a typical day coach around 1900?
>> Any help would be appreciated.
>> Thanks.
>> Joel Walker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>









locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

C J Wyatt
 

Joel, 

Thank you for sharing that information. Interesting project!

The annual report for fiscal year 1900 ending June 30, 1900 shows 9 passenger cars being retired that year which should include the two wrecked cars. I wonder if any SRHA files have the car numbers?

Jack

On Friday, September 18, 2020, 09:57:17 PM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@gmail.com> wrote:





Since Jack asked, I'm not modeling a 1900 Southern train but am working on a book (historical fiction) built around the Camp Creek wreck north of McDonough, Georgia in June of 1900. I have found multiple newspaper accounts (local and national) and have read all thirty of the federal court cases involving the wreck. I have also done genealogical research on most of the victims and the survivors. I know exactly who was on the Pullman Sleeper (the Giraldo) and have a good handle on what the interior was like since all the survivors were on the Sleeper.  But I don't have a lot of information on the first-class day coach or the combination car. 'Little things,' like getting the numbers of the cars correct (at least in the ball park) and what the interiors were like will help me flesh out the story so what all of you have shared with me will be useful.  
Thanks, again.
Joel

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 5:12 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Joel,

Look at this site for a source of early Southern Rwy. passenger car diagrams:

http://southern.railfan.net/

Select "Southern Documents", next "Passenger and Business Car Diagrams", and finally "Passenger Car Diagrams 1913".

Are you intending to model a circa 1900 Southern Railway passenger train? If so, are you scratch-building the cars or just looking for ones which are "close"?

I'll be happy to discuss further. 

Jack Wyatt






On Friday, September 18, 2020, 04:25:31 PM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@gmail.com> wrote:





Jack,
Your information was exactly what I was looking for! 
Thanks.
Joel

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 2:12 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Joel,

The original renumbering from the predecessor roads had combination passenger and baggage cars in the 500-560 series.

Second class passenger coaches (some of which did not last much longer) were 700-772.

First class passenger cars were 900-1075.

Southern Railway had a couple of first class coaches destroyed in an October 1894 wreck of the Vestibule Ltd. Pullman Palace Car got the contract for  nos. 1200-1201 to replace those cars. Southern liked the cars so it adopted them as its standard. Until 1901, this series was added to reaching 1296 or maybe a bit higher. These were 57' wood cars, but they were ordered with wide vestibules, narrow vestibules, and open platforms according to the current requirements. These are probably the coaches you need to focus on, along with some of the first and second class ones from the predecessors.

I am not sure about whether any new combines were built between 1894 and 1901. My notes are in disarray now.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt







On Thursday, September 17, 2020, 11:06:43 AM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@gmail.com> wrote:





Does anyone have a handle on how Southern numbered their combination cars and day coaches at the turn of the century? Pullman Sleepers, I know, had names. 
Also, is anyone aware of any diagrams the archives might have on the interior of a typical day coach around 1900?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Joel Walker
















locked Speaking of turntables

Allen Cain
 

This may be too wide of a question but would appreciate input on the length of the bridges on the various Southern turntables just prior to dieselization in the early 1950s.

Thanks

Allen Cain


locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

Joel Walker
 

Since Jack asked, I'm not modeling a 1900 Southern train but am working on a book (historical fiction) built around the Camp Creek wreck north of McDonough, Georgia in June of 1900. I have found multiple newspaper accounts (local and national) and have read all thirty of the federal court cases involving the wreck. I have also done genealogical research on most of the victims and the survivors. I know exactly who was on the Pullman Sleeper (the Giraldo) and have a good handle on what the interior was like since all the survivors were on the Sleeper.  But I don't have a lot of information on the first-class day coach or the combination car. 'Little things,' like getting the numbers of the cars correct (at least in the ball park) and what the interiors were like will help me flesh out the story so what all of you have shared with me will be useful.  
Thanks, again.
Joel

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 5:12 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Joel,

Look at this site for a source of early Southern Rwy. passenger car diagrams:

http://southern.railfan.net/

Select "Southern Documents", next "Passenger and Business Car Diagrams", and finally "Passenger Car Diagrams 1913".

Are you intending to model a circa 1900 Southern Railway passenger train? If so, are you scratch-building the cars or just looking for ones which are "close"?

I'll be happy to discuss further. 

Jack Wyatt






On Friday, September 18, 2020, 04:25:31 PM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@...> wrote:





Jack,
Your information was exactly what I was looking for! 
Thanks.
Joel

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 2:12 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
> Joel,
>
> The original renumbering from the predecessor roads had combination passenger and baggage cars in the 500-560 series.
>
> Second class passenger coaches (some of which did not last much longer) were 700-772.
>
> First class passenger cars were 900-1075.
>
> Southern Railway had a couple of first class coaches destroyed in an October 1894 wreck of the Vestibule Ltd. Pullman Palace Car got the contract for  nos. 1200-1201 to replace those cars. Southern liked the cars so it adopted them as its standard. Until 1901, this series was added to reaching 1296 or maybe a bit higher. These were 57' wood cars, but they were ordered with wide vestibules, narrow vestibules, and open platforms according to the current requirements. These are probably the coaches you need to focus on, along with some of the first and second class ones from the predecessors.
>
> I am not sure about whether any new combines were built between 1894 and 1901. My notes are in disarray now.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jack Wyatt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, September 17, 2020, 11:06:43 AM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Does anyone have a handle on how Southern numbered their combination cars and day coaches at the turn of the century? Pullman Sleepers, I know, had names. 
> Also, is anyone aware of any diagrams the archives might have on the interior of a typical day coach around 1900?
> Any help would be appreciated.
> Thanks.
> Joel Walker
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>









locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

C J Wyatt
 

Ike,

the combined baggage - coach cars continued into the 600 series.

As I already posted, the new first class coaches started at 1200. Southern did have an order from Pullman in early 1901 which backfilled 1179-1185 in the predecessor series for first class coaches starting at 900.

Combines 575-578 were ordered from Pullman on December 11, 1896 and are probably related to the floor plan which you posted.

Jack

On Friday, September 18, 2020, 05:30:40 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:


In general we can say around 1900, Southern P&Bs were numbered in the 500 and 600 series, full coaches were in the 600,  series and continued up from there into the 1300s and 1400s by thge 1920 and 30s.

Ike


locked Re: Numbering of 19th Century Rolling Stock

C J Wyatt
 

Joel,

Look at this site for a source of early Southern Rwy. passenger car diagrams:

http://southern.railfan.net/

Select "Southern Documents", next "Passenger and Business Car Diagrams", and finally "Passenger Car Diagrams 1913".

Are you intending to model a circa 1900 Southern Railway passenger train? If so, are you scratch-building the cars or just looking for ones which are "close"?

I'll be happy to discuss further. 

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, September 18, 2020, 04:25:31 PM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@gmail.com> wrote:





Jack,
Your information was exactly what I was looking for! 
Thanks.
Joel

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 2:12 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Joel,

The original renumbering from the predecessor roads had combination passenger and baggage cars in the 500-560 series.

Second class passenger coaches (some of which did not last much longer) were 700-772.

First class passenger cars were 900-1075.

Southern Railway had a couple of first class coaches destroyed in an October 1894 wreck of the Vestibule Ltd. Pullman Palace Car got the contract for  nos. 1200-1201 to replace those cars. Southern liked the cars so it adopted them as its standard. Until 1901, this series was added to reaching 1296 or maybe a bit higher. These were 57' wood cars, but they were ordered with wide vestibules, narrow vestibules, and open platforms according to the current requirements. These are probably the coaches you need to focus on, along with some of the first and second class ones from the predecessors.

I am not sure about whether any new combines were built between 1894 and 1901. My notes are in disarray now.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt







On Thursday, September 17, 2020, 11:06:43 AM EDT, Joel Walker <loneloper@gmail.com> wrote:





Does anyone have a handle on how Southern numbered their combination cars and day coaches at the turn of the century? Pullman Sleepers, I know, had names. 
Also, is anyone aware of any diagrams the archives might have on the interior of a typical day coach around 1900?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Joel Walker








501 - 520 of 1920