Date   

locked Re: Asheville Division

daveroberts10@...
 

Thanks for the reply


locked Re: Asheville Division

Carl Ardrey
 

Railroad Retirement Board.  All the divisional records are long gone.
CEA

On 10/19/2020 1:19 PM daveroberts10@... wrote:


Looking for any source of information related to G A Jones Freight Agent/Clerk Asheville Division 1909 to early 60’s. 


locked Asheville Division

daveroberts10@...
 

Looking for any source of information related to G A Jones Freight Agent/Clerk Asheville Division 1909 to early 60’s. 


locked 1985 Freight Train Schedules and Blocking Instructions

John
 

I recently worked with the owner of the movingthefreight.com website to post a copy of the 2/85 Freight Train Schedules and Blocking Instructions from my collection.  It is a total of 369 pages in PDF format and includes all manifest freights and unit coal trains.  For purists, it's after the NS merger but still in the traditional Southern Railway schedule and blocking format.  The big changes would come in 1988 when NS went to a common train numbering format for both the N&W and SOU.

You may access it at the link below.

https://movingthefreight.com/railroads/southern/

John


locked PRR (Attempted?) Charges for Through Passenger Cars at Washington

George Eichelberger
 

In 1958, the PRR's financial condition was bad and getting worse. On January 10, 1958 the PRR President sent a letter to the Presidents all of the railroads with through passenger car connections at Washington Union Terminal informing them PRR would asses a $20 per car charge for every car. Every connecting line wrote back with an emphatic "NO". Undaunted, the PRR followed up with the attached letter dated Feb 5, 1958. Although there are quite a few letters and attachments in the SRHA Archives on the subject, none found so far are clear if/how long the charge "stuck".

The second attachment is one of several inb the file describing the number of cars to and from the Southern. Other attachments break the cars down to individual Southern schedules connecting to PRR trains at DC.

As with many (!) subjects, the archives contain a rich source of information on many topics. Attachments or letters on one subject provide information on others, Southern through train activity at WUT in this example. It's impossible to say when we will be able to open the archives to work sessions again but when we can, this is the kind of material SRHA members will be able to access, research and hopefully describe in articles for TIES.

Ike


locked Re: Three days a week beyond Atlanta to New Orleans

Bill Schafer
 

Steve:

You’re right that trains 1 & 2’s schedule changed from daily to New Orleans in the August 12, 1970 timetable, to tri-weekly in the November 20, 1970 timetable between Birmingham and New Orleans; the trains still ran daily between Atlanta and Birmingham. Effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable, trains 1 & 2 became tri-weekly south of Atlanta.

—Bill

On Oct 10, 2020, at 13:15, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

One of my most poignant memories from my childhood was, right after high school, I took a trip from where I grew up in New Brunswick Canada to Atlanta. I had dreamed about going to Georgia for years, and this was finally my chance.


I rode the Southern Railway from Washington to Atlanta on October 9 to October 10, 1970. I know for sure that, on that day, the train did not terminate in Atlanta.


At that time, I did not know the country nearly as well as I do now, but I was very excited to be going to the south on the train. I was looking at everybody’s hat check, and I saw some abbreviations that I initially did not understand. I had just assumed the train terminated in Atlanta.


Finally I figured out the train went to Birmingham and New Orleans. I can’t remember exactly the abbreviations, but New Orleans may have been simply NO instead of the current N0L. 


The train arrived on time in Atlanta which was I think at 8:55 AM.


I have a schedule from the Southern Railway System dated November 20, 1970. 
The schedule states that the train only continued beyond Atlanta on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays. This must have started sometime between October 10 and November 20 of this year, 1970. (?)


Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn, New York



On Sep 10, 2020, at 10:36 AM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

George,

Yes I did meet Ben Roberts at his home. He was a very nice man, and he had an impressive collection from the Southern Railroad.


Steve



On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:28 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Steve:

Ben Roberts and Oscar Kimsey were the "heart and soul" of the Southern Railway Historical Society. Both were prolific photographers and more or less produced "Southern Rails" by themselves. They were not really interested in incorporating the "SRHS" or dealing with officers, etc. It was primarily operated to produce the magazine, largely from Ben's and Oscar's collections.

A group of Southern fans that wanted a more structured organization, created the Southern Railway Historical Association (SRHA) at Spencer Shops. Bill Schafer is the organization's historian and can fill us in on the early details. The two organizations continued for a number of years with many people maintaining memberships in both.

After the magazine had been out of production for a number of years, SRHS was dissolved and combined with SRHA. (SRHA owns both names but is concerned using "SRHS" would be confusing.) As several SRHA members were good friends with Oscar and Ben, we suggested that their collections of Southern Railway material and photos could be acquired and made permanent parts of the SRHA archives. Ben's came to SRHA first, followed by Oscar's several years later. They both passed away knowing SRHA would maintain and utilize their collections as long as possible. Oscar visited the archives at Kennesaw and we believe both men were pleased with their decisions.

I spent more time with Oscar in person and on the phone the years before he passed away. His knowledge of the Southern Railway was encyclopedic and our shared interest in railroad photography and freight cars made for many interesting conversations. Both Ben and Oscar were "charter members" of the early (few) Southeastern rail photographers. Their collections, extensive trading with virtually every well known rail photographer along with other collections and the extensive materials donated to SRHA by Norfolk Southern most certainly make the SRHA archives, now at TVRM, the most extensive collection of Southern Railway and Southeastern railroad photos and documentation .

Our collective goal is to maintain the collection for people interested in the Southern....basically, to "Keep the Green Light Shining".

Ike: for Carl, Bill, the SRHA BOD and all our members


locked Three days a week beyond Atlanta to New Orleans

Steve Ellis
 

One of my most poignant memories from my childhood was, right after high school, I took a trip from where I grew up in New Brunswick Canada to Atlanta. I had dreamed about going to Georgia for years, and this was finally my chance.


I rode the Southern Railway from Washington to Atlanta on October 9 to October 10, 1970. I know for sure that, on that day, the train did not terminate in Atlanta.


At that time, I did not know the country nearly as well as I do now, but I was very excited to be going to the south on the train. I was looking at everybody’s hat check, and I saw some abbreviations that I initially did not understand. I had just assumed the train terminated in Atlanta.


Finally I figured out the train went to Birmingham and New Orleans. I can’t remember exactly the abbreviations, but New Orleans may have been simply NO instead of the current N0L. 


The train arrived on time in Atlanta which was I think at 8:55 AM.


I have a schedule from the Southern Railway System dated November 20, 1970. 
The schedule states that the train only continued beyond Atlanta on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays. This must have started sometime between October 10 and November 20 of this year, 1970. (?)


Steve Ellis,
Brooklyn, New York



On Sep 10, 2020, at 10:36 AM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

George,

Yes I did meet Ben Roberts at his home. He was a very nice man, and he had an impressive collection from the Southern Railroad.


Steve



On Sep 9, 2020, at 8:28 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Steve:

Ben Roberts and Oscar Kimsey were the "heart and soul" of the Southern Railway Historical Society. Both were prolific photographers and more or less produced "Southern Rails" by themselves. They were not really interested in incorporating the "SRHS" or dealing with officers, etc. It was primarily operated to produce the magazine, largely from Ben's and Oscar's collections.

A group of Southern fans that wanted a more structured organization, created the Southern Railway Historical Association (SRHA) at Spencer Shops. Bill Schafer is the organization's historian and can fill us in on the early details. The two organizations continued for a number of years with many people maintaining memberships in both.

After the magazine had been out of production for a number of years, SRHS was dissolved and combined with SRHA. (SRHA owns both names but is concerned using "SRHS" would be confusing.) As several SRHA members were good friends with Oscar and Ben, we suggested that their collections of Southern Railway material and photos could be acquired and made permanent parts of the SRHA archives. Ben's came to SRHA first, followed by Oscar's several years later. They both passed away knowing SRHA would maintain and utilize their collections as long as possible. Oscar visited the archives at Kennesaw and we believe both men were pleased with their decisions.

I spent more time with Oscar in person and on the phone the years before he passed away. His knowledge of the Southern Railway was encyclopedic and our shared interest in railroad photography and freight cars made for many interesting conversations. Both Ben and Oscar were "charter members" of the early (few) Southeastern rail photographers. Their collections, extensive trading with virtually every well known rail photographer along with other collections and the extensive materials donated to SRHA by Norfolk Southern most certainly make the SRHA archives, now at TVRM, the most extensive collection of Southern Railway and Southeastern railroad photos and documentation .

Our collective goal is to maintain the collection for people interested in the Southern....basically, to "Keep the Green Light Shining".

Ike: for Carl, Bill, the SRHA BOD and all our members


locked Re: Atlanta Terminal, was Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

Robert Hanson
 

Mitchell Street.

Forsyth Street runs parallel to the railroad.

Mitchell crosses it on the Mitchell Street Viaduct.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Oct 10, 2020 11:59 am
Subject: Re: Atlanta Terminal, was Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

Close enough!

Jack

On Saturday, October 10, 2020, 11:57:35 AM EDT, John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:





Hi again folks

On retrospect, I don't think it was the Mitchell Street viaduct...  Maybe Forsyth St.

Only been 46 years...

John Stewart
Birmingham, AL







locked Re: Atlanta Terminal, was Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

C J Wyatt
 

Close enough!

Jack

On Saturday, October 10, 2020, 11:57:35 AM EDT, John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:





Hi again folks

On retrospect, I don't think it was the Mitchell Street viaduct...  Maybe Forsyth St.

Only been 46 years...

John Stewart
Birmingham, AL


locked Re: Atlanta Terminal, was Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

John Stewart
 

Hi again folks

On retrospect, I don't think it was the Mitchell Street viaduct...  Maybe Forsyth St.

Only been 46 years...

John Stewart
Birmingham, AL


locked Re: Atlanta Terminal, was Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

John Stewart
 

Hi folks

Wonderful map!

My first engineering assignment in 1974 was to look at an over height boxcar wedged under Mitchell st viaduct, am evaluate damage to the old bridge.

John Stewart
Birmingham, AL 


locked Re: Atlanta Terminal, was Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

Steve Ellis
 

Thank you very much, Jack. I appreciate the information.

On Oct 9, 2020, at 1:26 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Steve,

Atlanta Terminal Station was on Spring Street, just up from then Southern offices in Atlanta. Attached is a map from the 1934 study.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt


On Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 11:14:17 AM EDT, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Where was the Atlanta terminal station located? Was it on Peachtree Street?

Steve Ellis
Brooklyn NY





<Atlanta Union and Terminal Stations 1934.jpg>


locked Re: Atlanta Terminal, was Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

Robert Hanson
 

I believe the address was 85 Spring Street.

The Southern Railway office buildings were at 99 and 125 Spring Street.  The Southern (or Norfolk Southern) built an additional building at 185 Spring in the 1980's, I think.

The Richard B. Russell Federal Office Building occupies the site of Atlanta Terminal Station today.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Oct 9, 2020 1:25 am
Subject: Atlanta Terminal, was Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

Steve, 

Atlanta Terminal Station was on Spring Street, just up from then Southern offices in Atlanta. Attached is a map from the 1934 study.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt


On Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 11:14:17 AM EDT, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Where was the Atlanta terminal station located? Was it on Peachtree Street?

Steve Ellis
Brooklyn NY





locked Atlanta Terminal, was Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

C J Wyatt
 

Steve, 

Atlanta Terminal Station was on Spring Street, just up from then Southern offices in Atlanta. Attached is a map from the 1934 study.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Tuesday, October 6, 2020, 11:14:17 AM EDT, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Where was the Atlanta terminal station located? Was it on Peachtree Street?

Steve Ellis
Brooklyn NY


locked Southern Passenger Trains at WUT

George Eichelberger
 

All:

Here is a cross posting from the Passenger Car LIst. It is a good example of the kind of material found in the Southern Railway Presidents' Files collection in the SRHA Archives.

Ike



From the SRHA Archives.....

The Southern Railway Presidents' files are full of correspondence about various interline proposals, plans and conflicts. Few generated as many pieces of angry correspondence as the following letter from PRR President James M. Symes sent January 10, 1958. In it, the PRR announces it intends to bill all roads that interchange passenger cars at Washington $20.00 per car.

Research has not turned up how long the PRR attempted, or ever began to levy the charge. The response letters from every railroad President this was addressed to were negative, to say the least. Can anyone fill us in on if the fee was ever charged?

The exercise did yield a report by the Pennsy of July 30, 1958, that describes the typical consist of every connecting train at WUT in the fall and winter of 1958-59. It is too long to post but it would make a fine candidate for a "From the Archives" item in SRHA's "TIES" and other historical group magazines. (An oddity....coaches with head rest covers were noted.)

Ike

 


locked Re: Jim Crow in Alabama

Matt Bumgarner
 

:My personal opinion is that some items are great as "teasers" which can inspire interest  in the subject matter.
But when it comes to meat and potatoes, I agree with Rick, one should be a member of the organization. 

How one differentiates between a teaser and meat/taters, I leave to your discretion.  You have done a very good job of it.

Matt Bumgarner

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 6:14 AM rwbrv4 via groups.io <Rwbrv4=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

PS Could I ask for some feedback on the contents of the list, particularly items from the SRHA archives, either to the list or as “private” messages?
Also, what are the opinions about providing archives material to non-SRHA members, here or in any form?
These items are historically priceless.  I feel that if I have enough interest to request items then I should be a member of the organization.  The benefits of being a member is getting the "history" in the quarterly Ties magazine, as well as what comes from the archives.  I know someone living in Washington state can't make it to Archive work sessions, but can support the organization in other ways.
Just my opinion.
Rick


locked Re: Jim Crow in Alabama

rwbrv4
 


PS Could I ask for some feedback on the contents of the list, particularly items from the SRHA archives, either to the list or as “private” messages?
Also, what are the opinions about providing archives material to non-SRHA members, here or in any form?
These items are historically priceless.  I feel that if I have enough interest to request items then I should be a member of the organization.  The benefits of being a member is getting the "history" in the quarterly Ties magazine, as well as what comes from the archives.  I know someone living in Washington state can't make it to Archive work sessions, but can support the organization in other ways.
Just my opinion.
Rick


locked Re: original passenger car color

William L Vanderburg
 

In 1916, Charlie Soderstrom joined UPS and selected brown for their uniforms and delivery vehicles. He chose a hue of brown that was similar to “the color used on Pullman rail cars because the color reflected class, elegance, and professionalism – and dirt is less visible on brown uniforms and vehicles,” according to UPS. By 1929 the UPS brown color that you see today was adopted across the company.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 6:48 PM Matt Bumgarner <tarheelpress@...> wrote:
At the SE Narrow Gauge & Shortline Museum, we have been restoring an 1899 narrow gauge baggage car from the WV Midland Rwy.  We found the original specs from the Jackson & Sharpe records, and the color specified was "Pullman", but as we sanded down siding or removed moulding, all we found was a chocolate brown. 

After more research, we found out indeed that the early "Pullman" color was brown, and around 1910 changed to green.

I can't remember the source, but I remember reading that UPS picked their brown color to match the original "Pullman" brown.

Matt Bumgrner

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:57 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I assumed that the Southern Railway System's first passenger car color was similar to Pullman Green. Indeed, in a contract dated May 3, 1895 with Pullman Palace Car Company for new passenger cars, the body color is specified as "Pullman Standard furnished by Sherwin Williams Co". However the "standard" may be something else. Pullman expert Arthur D. Dublin said in his Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook on page 10:

"Until 1900 Pullman cars were painted a rich, thick chocolate brown."

So did Southern in its early days use green or brown? And then we have the question about the color of letters, numbers, and stripes? Gold leaf?

I appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt






















locked Re: original passenger car color

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Jack 

Pullman ( or "Brewster") Green came into use in February 1900;.The old Pullman colour was indeed a dark brown - UPS brown is officially described as "Pullman Brown" so that gives you an idea of the colour. t Pullman Brown was one of the standard shades offered by paint suppliers and by ACF among others and was used by other roads. Paint charts of the 1900s included chips for both "Old Pullman Color" and "New Pullman Color" .     

Lettering may not be your only challenge, though it's worth noting the use of gold leaf and/or gold transfers for first class cars was a very widespread practice. In the 1890s and early 1900s cars were also often liberally decorated with scrollwork and ornate designs in  the corners and very often everywhere else including the trucks and visible parts of the underframe.Things settled down a bit with the changing taste for slightly simpler lines in 1900s, but even some of the simplified schemes must have taken days to apply  While I dont think there is anything specifically Southern available, there are some good photos of cars with these patterns in the Delaware archives Jackson and Sharp collection

Aidrian 

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 7:57 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I assumed that the Southern Railway System's first passenger car color was similar to Pullman Green. Indeed, in a contract dated May 3, 1895 with Pullman Palace Car Company for new passenger cars, the body color is specified as "Pullman Standard furnished by Sherwin Williams Co". However the "standard" may be something else. Pullman expert Arthur D. Dublin said in his Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook on page 10:

"Until 1900 Pullman cars were painted a rich, thick chocolate brown."

So did Southern in its early days use green or brown? And then we have the question about the color of letters, numbers, and stripes? Gold leaf?

I appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt


locked Re: original passenger car color

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Matt,

I had heard the UPS story and that took place in 1916. Dublin said that Pullman started developing its green in 1900. Maybe it took ten years to evolve.

Brown sounds good to me. Now if I can get some evidence for the lettering.

Jack

On Thursday, September 24, 2020, 08:21:35 PM EDT, Matt Bumgarner <tarheelpress@...> wrote:





At the SE Narrow Gauge & Shortline Museum, we have been restoring an 1899 narrow gauge baggage car from the WV Midland Rwy.  We found the original specs from the Jackson & Sharpe records, and the color specified was "Pullman", but as we sanded down siding or removed moulding, all we found was a chocolate brown. 

After more research, we found out indeed that the early "Pullman" color was brown, and around 1910 changed to green.

I can't remember the source, but I remember reading that UPS picked their brown color to match the original "Pullman" brown.

Matt Bumgrner

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:57 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I assumed that the Southern Railway System's first passenger car color was similar to Pullman Green. Indeed, in a contract dated May 3, 1895 with Pullman Palace Car Company for new passenger cars, the body color is specified as "Pullman Standard furnished by Sherwin Williams Co". However the "standard" may be something else. Pullman expert Arthur D. Dublin said in his Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook on page 10:

"Until 1900 Pullman cars were painted a rich, thick chocolate brown."

So did Southern in its early days use green or brown? And then we have the question about the color of letters, numbers, and stripes? Gold leaf?

I appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt



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