Date   

locked Re: St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

Daniel Bourque
 

Scott,

 

Thank you so much! Just to confirm this is from Oct 1984?

 

Dan

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: D. Scott Chatfield
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 7:11 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

 

I guess my phone doesn't want to upload directly to this list's file section on groups.io, so I'll just attach the images to this email.

 

 

 

Scott Chatfield



-------- Original message --------
From: "D. Scott Chatfield" <blindog@...>
Date: 12/21/2020 5:29 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

In the Archives we have a map printed by the Southern of active coal loadouts in October 1984.  Of course it includes the Southern and Interstate lines in southwest Virginia.  I took quick pics of the map last year at a work session to share with a friend who models the ex-Interstate lines in the NS era.  

 

I don't know if the archives have any earlier versions of that map, or if such exist.

 

I haven't uploaded anything to Groups.io file section, so I'll try to figure that out tonight.

 

 

 

Scott Chatfield

 


locked Re: St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

D. Scott Chatfield
 

I guess my phone doesn't want to upload directly to this list's file section on groups.io, so I'll just attach the images to this email.



Scott Chatfield


-------- Original message --------
From: "D. Scott Chatfield" <blindog@...>
Date: 12/21/2020 5:29 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

In the Archives we have a map printed by the Southern of active coal loadouts in October 1984.  Of course it includes the Southern and Interstate lines in southwest Virginia.  I took quick pics of the map last year at a work session to share with a friend who models the ex-Interstate lines in the NS era.  

I don't know if the archives have any earlier versions of that map, or if such exist.

I haven't uploaded anything to Groups.io file section, so I'll try to figure that out tonight.



Scott Chatfield


locked Re: St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

George Eichelberger
 

Dan:

I don’t expect the Southern would know much about inter-company sales. There could be something on the waybills relating to that but they have not survived anywhere I have seen.

Ike

PS!!! Does anyone know of ANY Southern or Interstate records or documentation that exists anywhere? If so…try to obtain it for the SRHA archives. I am certain we have the largest collection of Southern Railway drawings and documents anywhere but even smaller collections add to the knowledge base. Personal collections are welcome with the proviso that items that duplicate what we already have, typically books and magazines, can be sold.



On Dec 21, 2020, at 11:52 PM, Daniel Bourque <deltabourque@...> wrote:

Ike,
 
Thank you for that list! It’ll definitely help narrow down a few of the loaders—now I need to figure out which coal companies sold to which other companies so I can match up tipples. Sometimes I feel like I’m in “National Treasure”. . . just one more clue. . .
 
Every clue counts, so thanks again! Cool info on the ships and Charleston, too.
 
Dan
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: George Eichelberger
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 6:14 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info
 
Here is one page from a report listing many/all(?) active coal mines on the Southern in 1974. It covers both the St. Charles line on the Appalachia Div. and the Interstate.

There are many files discussing coal in the SRHA archives. Some have been scanned but much more research is needed. One topic is the Southern's coal pier at Charleston. It loaded ship for domestic and international destinations as well a "bunker" coal for the ships. At one time, coal fired ships of all kind would dock at the pier for bunker coal as they left port. Most of the Charleston coal came from the Appalachia/St. Charles mines down through Asheville and Saluda.

Ike

 
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locked Re: St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

Daniel Bourque
 

Ike,

 

Thank you for that list! It’ll definitely help narrow down a few of the loaders—now I need to figure out which coal companies sold to which other companies so I can match up tipples. Sometimes I feel like I’m in “National Treasure”. . . just one more clue. . .

 

Every clue counts, so thanks again! Cool info on the ships and Charleston, too.

 

Dan

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: George Eichelberger
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 6:14 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

 

Here is one page from a report listing many/all(?) active coal mines on the Southern in 1974. It covers both the St. Charles line on the Appalachia Div. and the Interstate.

There are many files discussing coal in the SRHA archives. Some have been scanned but much more research is needed. One topic is the Southern's coal pier at Charleston. It loaded ship for domestic and international destinations as well a "bunker" coal for the ships. At one time, coal fired ships of all kind would dock at the pier for bunker coal as they left port. Most of the Charleston coal came from the Appalachia/St. Charles mines down through Asheville and Saluda.

Ike

 


locked Re: St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

George Eichelberger
 

Here is one page from a report listing many/all(?) active coal mines on the Southern in 1974. It covers both the St. Charles line on the Appalachia Div. and the Interstate.

There are many files discussing coal in the SRHA archives. Some have been scanned but much more research is needed. One topic is the Southern's coal pier at Charleston. It loaded ship for domestic and international destinations as well a "bunker" coal for the ships. At one time, coal fired ships of all kind would dock at the pier for bunker coal as they left port. Most of the Charleston coal came from the Appalachia/St. Charles mines down through Asheville and Saluda.

Ike


locked Re: St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

D. Scott Chatfield
 

In the Archives we have a map printed by the Southern of active coal loadouts in October 1984.  Of course it includes the Southern and Interstate lines in southwest Virginia.  I took quick pics of the map last year at a work session to share with a friend who models the ex-Interstate lines in the NS era.  

I don't know if the archives have any earlier versions of that map, or if such exist.

I haven't uploaded anything to Groups.io file section, so I'll try to figure that out tonight.



Scott Chatfield


locked Re: St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

Paul Schmidt
 

I too would be interested in that information, Dan. Be glad to help you with compiling it as well.
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA


locked St Charles Branch Coal Loader Info

Daniel Bourque
 

Hi Everyone,

 

I’ve been lurking on this list for a while, and I really appreciate how much incredibly knowledge resides here—thanks for sharing!

 

I’m hoping there might be a Southern coal fan on this list who can help me with a research project. I’m modeling the Southern’s St. Charles Branch in southwestern VA, and despite multiple years of research now, I’m still not sure when the various coal loaders were active on this line. I’m building a spreadsheet with info based on aerial photos, other photos, track charts, etc., and I’m hoping someone here might have a Coal & Coke Directory or two and be willing to share some info that would help refine the research. Specifically, I’d be interested in any amplifying info for the 1960-1982 timeframe. Specific areas of interest: Imperial, Benedict, Monarch, Kemmergem, Turners Siding, Mayflower, Bonny Blue, St. Charles, Valee (Virginia Lee), Penn Lee, Maness, Pocket, Southwest, Reeds Creek, Purcell, Calvin, Keokee and Crest.

 

I’d be willing to share my spreadsheet with all who are interested—you can contact me off-list at deltabourque@....

 

Thanks!

 

Dan Bourque

 


locked Re: Southern Pullman passenger daily average 2-15-66

Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
 

Lines 6857 and 6856 connected at Greensboro
Line 2609 connected at Charlotte
Line 2254 connected at Harriman

Bob Grabarek


locked Re: Southern Pullman passenger daily average 2-15-66

George Eichelberger
 

Sorry, poorly worded question. The train numbers are on the list...when cars connected to different trains, where did that occur?

Ike


locked Southern Pullman passenger daily average 2-15-66

George Eichelberger
 

By 1966, the Southern wanted to discontinue most passenger services. The passenger "numbers" of all trains were closely watched and used for train-off petitions to the ICC and state PUCs. Here are two pages of passengers in "sleepers" for the first half of February, 1966. (Note: passenger counts are by Pullman "line number", not individual trains.)

Someone might look in the "Guides" and tell us which trains included these Pullman lines.

Ike


locked New .io group prices

George Eichelberger
 

I just saw a message explaining how .io group prices are going up.

As the Southern Railway group is well above the 200 subscriber list to remain a basic (sic free) service, it is grandfathered in but will need to stay below 1G total storage or pay a significant fee. As the group is not limited to SRHA members (about 50% are), I cannot propose that SRHA pay the fees. 

We will continue as we have been doing except attachments and overall memory usage will periodically be deleted. If there is anything posted that you would like a copy, please download it before it is deleted a few weeks after posting.

Ike
PS If anyone is interested in helping pay the fee to groups.io, please contact me off list


locked Central of Georgia Engine Repaint

Tom Holley
 

Hello, list.

Does anyone know when the Southern finished repainting the Central of Georgia engines into the tuxedo scheme with CG lettering?

Regards,

Tom Holley


locked Charlotte Rapid Transit Co. 1912

George Eichelberger
 

I expect it would be safe to say; the attached letter from the Charlotte Rapid Transit Co. has been sitting untouched in the Southern Railway Presidents' files since it was written in 1912. I think I am correct to say a segment of today's Charlotte light rail system uses the same route.

Ike


locked Re: Steel vs wood passenger cars Circa 1909

A&Y Dave in MD
 

That is interesting.  Thanks for sharing stuff on the early years.  I get the whole high hoods era attraction, but for some reason I'm just fascinated in the 1900-1940 era.   I'm reading a 1928 Car Builder's Cyclopedia (noting that R.M. Ettinger was a Southern VP and was listed as an author/consultant for that CBC) and the range of technology and materials used then are just interesting.

Dave

Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 4:40:20 PM, you wrote:


Note attached....By June of 1911, attitudes on all-steel cars had changed but the Pullman Co. could not supply enough steel cars. The Southern considered the "Birmingham Special" a first-class train, making an observation car a requirement.

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Chip Car

George Eichelberger
 

Tom:

Those (converted wood rack) chip cars were discussed in a TIES article years ago. Maybe someone (Bill Schafer) can tell us which issue?

Ike

PS They never would have traveled to Columbus, GA. Unloading them required special equipment, a hydraulic ram that traveled beside the car and pushed the chips out of the other side. As ex wood racks, they had a solid floor. A chain hoist was used to open the lower sides of the car. Because of the way chips pack, when the side doors were removed, very few fell out. (That is why "modern" chip hoppers are wider at their side sills than at their top cords.) 

The operator rode the end of the ram as it moved along the car and pushed the chips out. Only Champion Paper in Canton (and Savannah?) had the equipment so they would never have gone to Columbus.


locked Re: Whale Oil and Southern Railway shipment information in the Fairfax Harrison period

George Eichelberger
 

Chris:

Remember, prior to WWII the Southern was basically an East-West railroad (note the 1921 v 1931 traffic map). A Southern route from Norfolk to Ivorydale (Cincy), OH would have been the most direct route. There are one or two more memos in the SRHA Presidents' files describing whale oil shipments from the S/S Pythia to P&G.

Ike


locked Re: Steel vs wood passenger cars Circa 1909

George Eichelberger
 

Note attached....By June of 1911, attitudes on all-steel cars had changed but the Pullman Co. could not supply enough steel cars. The Southern considered the "Birmingham Special" a first-class train, making an observation car a requirement.

Ike


locked Steel vs wood passenger cars Circa 1909

George Eichelberger
 

There are a number of memos and letters in the SRHA archives that discuss the move from wood to all-steel passenger equipment. Running multiple sections was already becoming a problem simply because of increasing passenger traffic.

Ike






locked Re: Whale Oil and Southern Railway shipment information in the Fairfax Harrison period

 

Ike,

Fascinating stuff. I did find several versions of the SS Pythia and whale oil shipping on this list, including an SS Pythia that supposedly ran from 1915 to 1928 under the A/S Dominion Whaling Ltd, Sandefjord. In service as cargo ship.... Link is here, although this looks like someone's personally built timeline that would need more verification. https://www.preceden.com/timelines/235552-the-whale-oil-factory-ships

Now this IS a verified source. The only buyer of consequence in the U.S. of whale oil from Norway was P&G in 1934 according to a Norwegian letter to the U.S. Secretary of State from that year. Interesting. https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1934v02/d553

You can find papers and links about P&G's use of whale oil in the hydrogenation of whale oils (and other types of oils) for products including margarine and cosmetics (Both of which P&G made and still makes). I've seen an unverified source on whale oil being a minor ingredient (less than half of one percent) in the original Ivory Soap (one of P&G's flagship brands). A P&G expert I am not though. So, that bears some more proper research if anything is to be done with the information.

But, one thing is clear, P&G brought in thousands of shipments of whale oil to the U.S., including to its Ivorydale/Cincinnati plant from Port Ivory on Staten Island. The Port Ivory plant was owned by P&G. You can find references to the trade in an ICC petition P&G filed against the B&O in 1926 about the whale oil shipment rates based on the shipment of 160 whale oil cars. Link here: https://books.google.com/books?id=zZbHY9_LWKkC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=%22port+ivory%22+Procter+and+gamble+%22whale+oil%22&source=bl&ots=SJofjsn7ft&sig=ACfU3U0RN8gyIquFiBYLZ30oe3xCmOh4BA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWmpjc9bztAhVFWqwKHfaHAxMQ6AEwD3oECBEQAg#v=onepage&q=%22port%20ivory%22%20Procter%20and%20gamble%20%22whale%20oil%22&f=false

If the Southern was involved in shipping whale oil too...I wonder what the routing was. Interesting. The SRHA archives deliver a fine mystery here that can be solved. I'll keep looking into this one a bit.

-Chris Mayhew
SRHA member
Cincinnati, Ohio

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