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Re: The Interstate Coal Fleet: 1960-1966?
Carl Ardrey
The company reports would have been in the Asheville Division records which are long gone.
CEA
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Re: The Interstate Coal Fleet: 1960-1966?
George Eichelberger
Rodney:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
If we have anything it would be in the Chattanooga archives…I’m just outside of Atlanta. I’d suggest looking into some of the sites that keep ICC accident reports. Ike
On Jan 16, 2021, at 4:41 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote: Mr. Ike, Do you have the date and any other information on the last Saluda Mountain runaway? (Other than the defective brakes on the Interstate cars) Rod S. From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2021 11:31 AM To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] The Interstate Coal Fleet: 1960-1966? Evan: Here is a tiny (!) snippet from the SRHA rolling stock data spreadsheets. Many Interstate hoppers were either scrapped because of their age and condition, used in “yellow ball” service, then scrapped (no lists or specific documentation on cars used for local coal service have ever been located) or were “articulated" with other 50-T hoppers to become 100-T cars. The last runaway on Saluda Mtn had a large percentage of INT hoppers. Many were found to have defective brakes. Ike
Hello everyone, I’m looking for information on what happened to the Interstate RR coal fleet after being acquired by Southern. I know many were placed into captive “yellow ball” service for the Westmoreland transloader in Appalachia, however it wasn't until 1966 that the transloader was built and shipping coal. So what exactly did Southern do with the fleet during the interim period of 1960-1966? Where they simply mixed into the main Southern coal fleet? Where they generally kept in the former Interstate territory like the RS3 fleet? When did Southern begin assigning offset hoppers to INT ownership? Thanks for any help! -Evan Miller
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Ho scale Southern diesels
Robert Seale <rkseale@...>
I am needing to sell two Ho scale Southern diesels at a very reasonable
price. A Rapido B36-7 for 150.00 and an Athearn genesis GP39X for 100.00. I can
be contacted through the group or e-mail: rkseale@....
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Re: The Interstate Coal Fleet: 1960-1966?
Rodney Shu
Mr. Ike,
Do you have the date and any other information on the last Saluda Mountain runaway?
(Other than the defective brakes on the Interstate cars)
Rod S.
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2021 11:31 AM To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] The Interstate Coal Fleet: 1960-1966? Evan:
Here is a tiny (!) snippet from the SRHA rolling stock data spreadsheets.
Many Interstate hoppers were either scrapped because of their age and condition, used in “yellow ball” service, then scrapped (no lists or specific documentation on cars used for local coal service have ever been located) or were “articulated"
with other 50-T hoppers to become 100-T cars.
The last runaway on Saluda Mtn had a large percentage of INT hoppers. Many were found to have defective brakes.
Ike
On Jan 16, 2021, at 12:04 PM, Evan Miller via
groups.io <nsrailfan82@...> wrote:
Hello everyone, I’m looking for information on what happened to the Interstate RR coal fleet after being acquired by Southern.
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Re: The Interstate Coal Fleet: 1960-1966?
George Eichelberger
I suspect the Mechanical Dept people did not think FRA inspectors would venture into the wilds of SW VA very often in the late 70s. Defects were visible on many of the yellow ball cars. If one was wrecked and not interfering with traffic, Southern would let them stay where they were until a contractor could scrap them. (No doubt local houses’ coal heaters had plenty of fuel?)
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Southern 72747 was at the far end of one of the Interstate branches just off mine property. When cars were loaded at the tipple, a mine worker would use the hand brake (and gravity) to move the car out of the way. If they started to spin the brake wheel and the car was not stopping, I expect they knew it was time to get off. In the case of 72747, the split switch derail put the car into the ditch before it could continue down the branch. Ike 
On Jan 16, 2021, at 1:18 PM, Daniel Bourque <deltabourque@...> wrote:
Evan,
The Interstate continued to operate generally as it had before Southern’s acquisition between 1960 and 1965 when the Southern shut down its Appalachia yard and moved into Andover (clearing the way for the Westmoreland transloader). So what happened to
the Interstate cars was essentially a continuation of what was occurring prior to 1960.
The Interstate’s hopper fleet was always wide ranging. In fact, the Interstate lived off of per diem for these cars for most of its life. The fact these cars were coming to the end of their useful lives was a big incentive to sell the Interstate. Additionally,
the Interstate had agreements with the Southern for empty hopper supply prior to the sale, so the free mixing of Southern and Interstate cars on both roads was commonplace both before and after 1960. Additionally, the Interstate continued to ship coal via
its connections with L&N, N&W, and CRR, so you’d see the IRR hoppers just about everywhere until they were made captive to the transloader in the late ‘60s.
Many cars were repainted in a Southern-style scheme starting in the mid-‘60s, and as Ike said, some were converted to permanently coupled 100T “articulated” hoppers and repainted in cool variations of Southern lettering (like “SOUT” on one car and “HERN”
on the other—wish someone would make some decals).
The Southern started placing older offset hoppers, some with extended sides, into Interstate service in ~’64. This was prior to the transloader, so you could find these cars all over the country as well for a couple years. The transloader changed everything
and saw most of the original IRR cars and the donated offsets placed in captive “yellow ball” service by the late ‘60s as you mentioned, so that’s when sightings outside of the Interstate and St Charles Branches would become rare.
The yellow ball fleet became increasingly eclectic in the ‘70s including most of the Southern’s remaining twin hopper fleet and war-emergency rebuilds (standard and extended height), 50T fish-belly and 70T hoppers from the original NS, a large number of
70T triple hoppers downgraded from mainline service, and even guest appearances from brand-new 100T twin aggregate hoppers in the winter. More than you asked about, but pretty cool fleet of coal cars!
Dan Bourque
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Re: The Interstate Coal Fleet: 1960-1966?
Daniel Bourque
Evan,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
The Interstate continued to operate generally as it had before Southern’s acquisition between 1960 and 1965 when the Southern shut down its Appalachia yard and moved into Andover (clearing the way for the Westmoreland transloader). So what happened to
the Interstate cars was essentially a continuation of what was occurring prior to 1960.
The Interstate’s hopper fleet was always wide ranging. In fact, the Interstate lived off of per diem for these cars for most of its life. The fact these cars were coming to the end of their useful lives was a big incentive to sell the Interstate. Additionally,
the Interstate had agreements with the Southern for empty hopper supply prior to the sale, so the free mixing of Southern and Interstate cars on both roads was commonplace both before and after 1960. Additionally, the Interstate continued to ship coal via
its connections with L&N, N&W, and CRR, so you’d see the IRR hoppers just about everywhere until they were made captive to the transloader in the late ‘60s.
Many cars were repainted in a Southern-style scheme starting in the mid-‘60s, and as Ike said, some were converted to permanently coupled 100T “articulated” hoppers and repainted in cool variations of Southern lettering (like “SOUT” on one car and “HERN”
on the other—wish someone would make some decals).
The Southern started placing older offset hoppers, some with extended sides, into Interstate service in ~’64. This was prior to the transloader, so you could find these cars all over the country as well for a couple years. The transloader changed everything
and saw most of the original IRR cars and the donated offsets placed in captive “yellow ball” service by the late ‘60s as you mentioned, so that’s when sightings outside of the Interstate and St Charles Branches would become rare.
The yellow ball fleet became increasingly eclectic in the ‘70s including most of the Southern’s remaining twin hopper fleet and war-emergency rebuilds (standard and extended height), 50T fish-belly and 70T hoppers from the original NS, a large number of
70T triple hoppers downgraded from mainline service, and even guest appearances from brand-new 100T twin aggregate hoppers in the winter. More than you asked about, but pretty cool fleet of coal cars!
Dan Bourque
On Jan 16, 2021, at 10:31 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
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Re: The Interstate Coal Fleet: 1960-1966?
George Eichelberger
Evan:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Here is a tiny (!) snippet from the SRHA rolling stock data spreadsheets. Many Interstate hoppers were either scrapped because of their age and condition, used in “yellow ball” service, then scrapped (no lists or specific documentation on cars used for local coal service have ever been located) or were “articulated" with other 50-T hoppers to become 100-T cars. The last runaway on Saluda Mtn had a large percentage of INT hoppers. Many were found to have defective brakes. Ike
On Jan 16, 2021, at 12:04 PM, Evan Miller via groups.io <nsrailfan82@...> wrote: Hello everyone, I’m looking for information on what happened to the Interstate RR coal fleet after being acquired by Southern.
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The Interstate Coal Fleet: 1960-1966?
Hello everyone, I’m looking for information on what happened to the Interstate RR coal fleet after being acquired by Southern.
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Southern Railway Presidents' Files - Index to years 1871-1896
George Eichelberger
There are 70 indexes for the 17,000+ files in Southern Railway Presidents’ Files collection in the SRHA Archives.
Here is the current version of one of those 70 for the period from 1871 to 1895, just prior to the formation of the Southern and for the beginning of the Samuel Spencer administration. Very (!) few of these files have been scanned but they can be reviewed at the archives. If funding could be found to pay a research assistant, it may be possible to research and scan files on request but that is not possible at this point except for limited cases. When we can restart archives work sessions, one project will be to edit the indices against the content of each file and to find/correct misfiled or misidentified items in each file. (Volunteers are certainly welcome!) Ike
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Re: SR Diesel Order Specs
George Eichelberger
Charlie:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
That proposal, certainly the switcher, is in the SRHA archives. The Southern was unhappy with Alco power but because of the anti-trust suit against EMD, they made a last effort with the C-420s and center cab switch engines. The switchers were last if I remember correctly but the SR already had their first SW-1500s and were not interested. Ike
On Jan 2, 2021, at 9:00 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote: Back in 1979 when I was on the Car Department Staff in Atlanta I was in the Mechanical File room searching for something I needed, when I ran across a proposal from ALCO for high-hood, long hood forward Century-420s. I think it was dated around 1966 and suspect this was probably the last proposal Southern got from ALCO. I wish I would have had made a photo copy of it. I don't recall the price. Charlie
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Re: SR Diesel Order Specs
Charles Powell
Back in 1979 when I was on the Car Department Staff in Atlanta I was in the Mechanical File room searching for something I needed, when I ran across a proposal from ALCO for high-hood, long hood forward Century-420s. I think it was dated around 1966 and suspect this was probably the last proposal Southern got from ALCO. I wish I would have had made a photo copy of it. I don't recall the price.
Charlie
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Document requests
Paul Schmidt
Happy New Year to all!
I'm searching for three Southern Ry. documents: a train register card, a typical waybill and a mine block waybill. Also, I'm on the hunt for any engineering prints or information on the timing circuit the Southern used on Saluda Grade. Thank you, -- Paul Schmidt Sequim WA
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Re: SR Diesel Order Specs
We have been successfully conducting Zoom sesssions amongst modelers for the past 4 months. I would love to participate in a session related to the SRHA to learn more about the current Archive situation and about Southern history.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Dave Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 1:13:47 PM, you wrote:
On Dec 30, 2020, at 11:55 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:
Chris: When SRHA had its annual meeting in Cincinnati in the spring of 1995, one of the activities was a tour of the facilities at Ludlow. We were pretty much given the run of the place and were well cared for by General Foreman Tom Kraft. NS arranged for the uniquely painted GP59 4610 to be on hand, and we could go through the diesel shop. We were told during our tour that the shop had been built before WWII to service the DL-109 diesels SOU bought for the Ponce de Leon and Florida Sunbeam. I never followed up to see exactly when the building was constructed. I’d love to run a story in TIES sometime about Ludlow and environs. —Bill Schafer
-- David Bott Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
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Re: SR Diesel Order Specs
Ike
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
That would be great idea about Zoom. I would also like to see more information about the Asheville engine facilities from 1900 forward. This information would be very helpful for those of us who model the Murphy Branch of the Southern.
Mike
On Dec 30, 2020, at 14:00, CMayhew <chris.mayhew611@...> wrote:
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Re: SR Diesel Order Specs
Ike,
I'd love to hear more about the Zoom sessions too. When it's possible to get down to Chattanooga, I'd certainly like to make it a productive use of time for all of us. What you listed....track charts, AFEs (authorization for expenditure) forms, correspondence in Presidential files asking for AFE approval would be what I would want to focus on to nail down dates/reasoning for need etc. Thanks again, and Happy New Year. I'm all ears for when a Zoom could happen. I'm in for that. -Chris
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Re: SR Diesel Order Specs
Fascinating Bill.
I almost forgot about the DL-109s being heavily used on the CNO&TP. I think I always thought more about the FTs needing servicing early. I sent you an email with some correspondence about some of my research efforts for Ludlow article(s) and a Cincinnati article. It's lengthy. I apologize for the length as it's a bit raw. -Chris
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Re: SR Diesel Order Specs
George Eichelberger
There are several sources of data in the SRHA archives that can give us information on track, bridges and structures. For a location such as Ludlow, data may (!) be found in track charts, AFEs (authorization for expenditure) forms, correspondence in Presidential files asking for AFE approval and the SRHA photo and drawing collections. The best information on "As&Bs” (additions and betterments) and dispositions may be in the individual Valuation section report ledgers that were prepared and sent to the ICC on June 30 and December 31 every years.
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BTW: Diesels have their own, almost parallel, source on when they were put in service at specific terminals and shops. The Southern had to provide diesel fuel at each service point. Fuel racks, storage tanks and even tank cars to move fuel to locations (diesel fuel was not available locally in many places in the 1940s) all help determine when Divisions were dieselized. We have been accumulating scanned info on particular locations and moving it into digital “By Location” files. As of right now there are almost 13,000 images in that file. I have put an earlier list on the .io group but it’s too large to do that again but I have attached the directory for Ludlow, KY. Sorry, we are not ready to make copies of the 13,000 items available “on demand”. We can get to that goal if people will volunteer to help at work sessions. (The “Rolling Stock” file has 64,545 scans, 1.17 TB.) We would like to do a series of “Zoom” presentations in different aspects of the SRHA archives. We’ll do the first one “live” so we can answer questions then make it available for people to look at later. As that is simply more “TTD” in addition to what is already underway, I’d be interested in hearing some feedback if people are interested and think it would be worthwhile. Some of those could be done before we can schedule work sessions. (It may be useful to insist people look at particular topics before they go the archives the first time. That would save us from taking the time to answer questions when people make it to Chattanooga. Ike Ludlow Depot July 1948.tif Ludlow Depot Piggyback Train.tif Ludlow KY Coach Shop 1952.tif Ludlow KY Coach Shop 1952_2.tif Ludlow KY Coach Shop 1956.tif Ludlow KY Diesel Shop & Roundhouse 1949.tif Ludlow KY Diesel Shop & Turntable 1952.tif Ludlow KY Freight Depot 1948.tif Ludlow KY General View of Shops 1952.jpg Ludlow KY General View of Shops 1952.tif Ludlow KY Misc Stores House 1952.tif Ludlow KY Roundhouse Shop & Yard.tif Ludlow KY Tower MO 1914.tif Ludlow, KY 1.tif Ludlow, KY 1907 track layout 2.tif Ludlow, KY 1907 track layout.tif Ludlow, KY 1912 track layout 2.tif Ludlow, KY 1912 track layout 3.tif Ludlow, KY 1912 track layout 4.tif Ludlow, KY 1912 track layout.tif Ludlow, KY 2.tif Ludlow, KY 3.tif Ludlow, KY 4.tif Ludlow, KY CNO&TP "MS" tower 12-82.tif Ludlow, KY Ohio R. Bridge Ludlow, KY axle turner's house.tif Ludlow, KY car cleaner's house.tif Ludlow, KY cast drain under pass depot.tif Ludlow, KY coach repair shop.tif Ludlow, KY depot 1927.tif Ludlow, KY depot 4-22-1910.tif Ludlow, KY depot and S end of Ohio R Bridge 10-26-73.tif Ludlow, KY details_2.tif Ludlow, KY early CNO&TP map 2.tif Ludlow, KY early CNO&TP map.tif Ludlow, KY early yard layout1.tif Ludlow, KY early yard layout2.tif Ludlow, KY early yard layout3.tif Ludlow, KY early yard layout4.tif Ludlow, KY early yard layout5.tif Ludlow, KY gen'l foreman's office.tif Ludlow, KY hoist house at pumping sta Nov 1927.tif Ludlow, KY inclined plane1.tif Ludlow, KY lumber mill.tif Ludlow, KY machine shop extension 1930.tif Ludlow, KY machine shop xfer table 1930.tif Ludlow, KY new woodworking shop 1930.tif Ludlow, KY oil house 7-11-1914.tif Ludlow, KY old coach paint shop.tif Ludlow, KY paint shop (note bagg car 3546).tif Ludlow, KY pass sta details.tif Ludlow, KY pass sta details_2.tif Ludlow, KY pass sta floor plan.tif Ludlow, KY pass sta framing.tif Ludlow, KY pass sta wood details.tif Ludlow, KY pass sta.tif Ludlow, KY pass staSheet 5.tif Ludlow, KY pattern & upolstery shop.tif Ludlow, KY prop track arr't 1912-1.tif Ludlow, KY prop track arr't 1912-2.tif Ludlow, KY prop track arr't 1912-3.tif Ludlow, KY prop track arr't 1912-4.tif Ludlow, KY pump house Nov 1927.tif Ludlow, KY pump house Nov 1927_2.tif Ludlow, KY pump house Nov 1927_3.tif Ludlow, KY pumping sta.tif Ludlow, KY section house O-11 11-1952.tif Ludlow, KY side elev framing.tif Ludlow, KY store house Apr 1930.tif Ludlow, KY toilet Aug 1927.tif Ludlow, KY toilet Aug 1927_2.tif Ludlow, KY toll collector's house.tif Ludlow, KY track layout1.tif Ludlow, KY track layout2.tif Ludlow, KY track layout3.tif Ludlow, KY track layout4.tif Ludlow, KY water towers.tif Ludlow, KY yard layout1 copy.tif Ludlow, KY yard layout1.tif Ludlow, KY yard layout2.tif Ludlow, Ky bridge1.tif Ludlow, Ky bridge2.tif Ludlow, Ky bridge3.tif Ludlow, Ky bridge4.tif Ludlow. KY depot 8-17-72.tif
On Dec 30, 2020, at 11:55 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote: Chris:
When SRHA had its annual meeting in Cincinnati in the spring of 1995, one of the activities was a tour of the facilities at Ludlow. We were pretty much given the run of the place and were well cared for by General Foreman Tom Kraft. NS arranged for the uniquely painted GP59 4610 to be on hand, and we could go through the diesel shop. We were told during our tour that the shop had been built before WWII to service the DL-109 diesels SOU bought for the Ponce de Leon and Florida Sunbeam. I never followed up to see exactly when the building was constructed. I’d love to run a story in TIES sometime about Ludlow and environs. —Bill Schafer
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Re: CofG RS3 details in O scale
Thanks for posting those photos, Bob! I don't recall ever seeing the RS-3s in service (though I was certainly in the area for family trips in that timeframe but I was born in 1969), the former SP RS-11s were the first ET&WNC engines I remember clearly that came after these.
As for the North American Rayon fireless cooker, I remember that well. They made such a big deal about the bicentennial pain job, and showed it off at Sycamore Shoals during the bicentennial events at Fort Watauga. It sat right by the entrance to the park and I have shots of myself, my brother and cousin standing in front of it. In 1985, the day after Christmas, we were coming back from Johnson City (I had just got to get some neat stuff from the hobby shop there, including the Lionel HO scale Freedom Train 4449, model which I still have to this day) and saw it puttering around the mill tracks. My mom pulled over and I had my good camera on me. I got several shots of it switching, but nothing as good as your shots. The crew let me sit in the cab under steam, and my Mom took a couple of shots (in the shadow side) of me in the cab. I need to scan those someday, but they're not that great quality. Sadly, I never got out there in a timeframe when I could drive somewhere on my own to go check stuff out until after I got married. I never managed to fnd a train on the ET&WNC main, and a few years later, it was all gone in Elizabethton.
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Re: SR Diesel Order Specs
Bill Schafer
Chris:
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When SRHA had its annual meeting in Cincinnati in the spring of 1995, one of the activities was a tour of the facilities at Ludlow. We were pretty much given the run of the place and were well cared for by General Foreman Tom Kraft. NS arranged for the uniquely painted GP59 4610 to be on hand, and we could go through the diesel shop. We were told during our tour that the shop had been built before WWII to service the DL-109 diesels SOU bought for the Ponce de Leon and Florida Sunbeam. I never followed up to see exactly when the building was constructed. I’d love to run a story in TIES sometime about Ludlow and environs. —Bill Schafer
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Re: SR Diesel Order Specs
Thanks for sharing this and all of the things you pull out of the archives. There wasn't any doubt about me re-upping my SRHA membership, but this made me re-up a couple of weeks ago for two years with a donating portion.
Anyway, I wonder if at some point the president files or other records might turn up when the first diesel shops were ordered built (and actually built)? Ludlow as open by 1947 (but perhaps earlier). Since Ludlow's diesel shop burned in 2020, I'm wondering if it (and possibly with a few others around the system) were definitely the first on the Southern. I definitely would be up for writing a TIES article on that if I learned more, but I haven't seen any records so far about the earliest days of the diesel shops in Ludlow or elsewhere. -Chris Mayhew
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