Date   

locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

George Eichelberger
 

Here is a poor quality (small) map of Chattanooga Traction circa 1939. There are several large, and clear, blueprints in the file but they are not yet scanned. It has been many years since the Signal Mtn. line was abandoned but I am curious if there are any traces left.

(If anyone has a large format scanner they are willing to donate or sell, we will put it to good use. There is a good quality 42” color roll scanner in the archives SRHA purchased years ago but there is a limit to how many scans we can make. Some large drawings are in poor condition so it takes significant time to use a document carrier and adjust scan size and color levels.)

Ike



On Feb 11, 2021, at 7:59 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

George that CTC file sounds interesting. I guess it discussed Webster James and his disposal of his father’s creation and his abandonment of Chattanooga for life in Daytona Beach, Florida. I would love to read about the electrified freight operations especially the pushing of coal hoppers up Signal Mountain to the Signal Mountain Inn. I have valuations maps of the existing CTC but would love to have maps for the route up the mountain. 

Tim I also have that file from as far back as the earliest attempt by Chattanooga to relocate the railroads till the end. What I have is mostly from a CofG perspective. I especially love the early inner railroad communications where a CofG official wrote “this too shall pass”. Boy was he wrong. The former L&N engineer who was brought in by the city had an interesting concept compared to what actually took place and he was the one that provided the interesting concept drawings of the new Art Deco depot. I especially chuckled when I read in his report,  that the TAG was given credit for four passenger coach movements per day. The Brill motorcar deadheading to Union Depot. Then to Gadsden. Then back to Union Depot then deadheading back to the TAG yard. There were a lot of freight and passenger cars flowing through down town back then. Based on CofG files, they were grateful to be free of their old yard which was crammed between 23 rd street and Roseville Boulevard. They were having trouble building the longer freight trains brought about by multiple unit diesel trains. I think you could take these files of ours and some pictures and easily write a book on the railroad relocation. Ike I would love to have a copy of that CTC file as well as the file on the TAG merger. COVID won’t last forever. 

Warren 


On Feb 11, 2021, at 6:19 PM, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


Warren and George,

I will have to find the file on Plan N, the grade separation and removal of the NC and CG from "Downtown" Chattanooga.  I believe it was lettered "N" because it was the final plan after plans A through M were never agreed to, but I'm just speculating.  In the file there is also a discussion of a combined depot on the relocated LN mainline near where Broad Street goes over the relocated LN and Chattanooga Creek.  Of course passenger service ended before any of this was built so it became a moot point. IIRC plan N was completed with Federal urban renewal dollars, probably with Chattanooga Housing Authority money from HUD in the early 1970s.  I seem to remember the completion being mentioned in a Southern Railway annual report shortly after I became a Southern Railway stockholder (10 shares of Southern Railway preferred stock-it had a better yield then the common stock) in about 1974.

Tim Andrews

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 05:04:46 PM EST, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:


George, Remember Southern had traditionally used trackage rights on NC&StL to gain access to Stevenson Alabama and therefore Memphis (west) and to reach the AGS on the west side of Lookout Mountain (south). This new trackage was supposed to get all the way to Stevenson but for financial reasons, they only made it out as far as the AGS. He is referencing railroad south and not geographically south through St. Elmo. 

This new Southern method of egressing town to the west and south was good for Southern but it added yet another busy mainline down town for automobile traffic to contend with. Chattanooga began the interesting process of kicking the railroads out of down town not long after Southern opened this new route. Very strange episode. The city at first wanted the railroads to elevate all their trackage in town. If you ever saw a vintage aerial of Chattanooga, there were 40 foot boxcars parked everywhere. The railroads countered with how would they switch these customers. The railroads did their best to ignore the city till Chattanooga went to the state legislature and had a Chattanooga Rail Authority formed with the ability - through imminent domain - to kick the railroads out of town and at their own expense. There were proposals for a new art deco union station over close to the National Cemetery and this is what brought about the CofG and NC&St.L abandoning their original yards and the relocation of the NC from town to alongside Southern and then both were elevated over Main street. Chattanooga is a most interesting rail hub. Far more interesting to me than Atlanta.

Warren D. Stephens

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 04:35:14 PM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Warren:

I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)

Ike


On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TAG fan


On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

Ike

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>



locked Bicentennial E8s

Warren Calloway
 

Is there any information in the files on the special stickers these units wore?

Warren Calloway


locked Speaking of Chattanooga

Warren Stephens
 

Ike, have you ever run across any files on the Chattanooga Union Railway or as it was known after purchased by AGS/Southern the Belt Railway of Chattanooga? I have the detailed val maps for the whole of the Belt Railway. So many divisions within the Belt. Were these holdovers from CURY days? I have always wondered if the CBRY was like the CTC, if there was a holdover seniority list with former CURY folks? O were the jobs somehow bid by AGS folks? Webster James didn't have to sell the Chattanooga Union Railway to Southern/AGS because his father C. E. James did that before he died. In so doing he became Chattanooga's first millionaire. I have always been intrigued by the division of territory on the Belt. Georgia, River, Newby, East Lake and Georgia divisions etc. Grandiose names for little segments of industrial belt line trackage. I still enjoy catching NS on the remnant of the old Belt. 

Warren 


locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

Warren Stephens
 

George that CTC file sounds interesting. I guess it discussed Webster James and his disposal of his father’s creation and his abandonment of Chattanooga for life in Daytona Beach, Florida. I would love to read about the electrified freight operations especially the pushing of coal hoppers up Signal Mountain to the Signal Mountain Inn. I have valuations maps of the existing CTC but would love to have maps for the route up the mountain. 

Tim I also have that file from as far back as the earliest attempt by Chattanooga to relocate the railroads till the end. What I have is mostly from a CofG perspective. I especially love the early inner railroad communications where a CofG official wrote “this too shall pass”. Boy was he wrong. The former L&N engineer who was brought in by the city had an interesting concept compared to what actually took place and he was the one that provided the interesting concept drawings of the new Art Deco depot. I especially chuckled when I read in his report,  that the TAG was given credit for four passenger coach movements per day. The Brill motorcar deadheading to Union Depot. Then to Gadsden. Then back to Union Depot then deadheading back to the TAG yard. There were a lot of freight and passenger cars flowing through down town back then. Based on CofG files, they were grateful to be free of their old yard which was crammed between 23 rd street and Roseville Boulevard. They were having trouble building the longer freight trains brought about by multiple unit diesel trains. I think you could take these files of ours and some pictures and easily write a book on the railroad relocation. Ike I would love to have a copy of that CTC file as well as the file on the TAG merger. COVID won’t last forever. 

Warren 


On Feb 11, 2021, at 6:19 PM, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


Warren and George,

I will have to find the file on Plan N, the grade separation and removal of the NC and CG from "Downtown" Chattanooga.  I believe it was lettered "N" because it was the final plan after plans A through M were never agreed to, but I'm just speculating.  In the file there is also a discussion of a combined depot on the relocated LN mainline near where Broad Street goes over the relocated LN and Chattanooga Creek.  Of course passenger service ended before any of this was built so it became a moot point. IIRC plan N was completed with Federal urban renewal dollars, probably with Chattanooga Housing Authority money from HUD in the early 1970s.  I seem to remember the completion being mentioned in a Southern Railway annual report shortly after I became a Southern Railway stockholder (10 shares of Southern Railway preferred stock-it had a better yield then the common stock) in about 1974.

Tim Andrews

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 05:04:46 PM EST, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:


George, Remember Southern had traditionally used trackage rights on NC&StL to gain access to Stevenson Alabama and therefore Memphis (west) and to reach the AGS on the west side of Lookout Mountain (south). This new trackage was supposed to get all the way to Stevenson but for financial reasons, they only made it out as far as the AGS. He is referencing railroad south and not geographically south through St. Elmo. 

This new Southern method of egressing town to the west and south was good for Southern but it added yet another busy mainline down town for automobile traffic to contend with. Chattanooga began the interesting process of kicking the railroads out of down town not long after Southern opened this new route. Very strange episode. The city at first wanted the railroads to elevate all their trackage in town. If you ever saw a vintage aerial of Chattanooga, there were 40 foot boxcars parked everywhere. The railroads countered with how would they switch these customers. The railroads did their best to ignore the city till Chattanooga went to the state legislature and had a Chattanooga Rail Authority formed with the ability - through imminent domain - to kick the railroads out of town and at their own expense. There were proposals for a new art deco union station over close to the National Cemetery and this is what brought about the CofG and NC&St.L abandoning their original yards and the relocation of the NC from town to alongside Southern and then both were elevated over Main street. Chattanooga is a most interesting rail hub. Far more interesting to me than Atlanta.

Warren D. Stephens

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 04:35:14 PM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Warren:

I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)

Ike


On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TAG fan


On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

Ike

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>


locked Re: Steam Decal Artwork

michael DUNNINGTON
 

They don’t include classification data for engineer’s side, nor the red warning signs for locomotives with stokers. 
Michael Dunnington 


On Feb 10, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

I got a couple of sets, and they look pretty good.  Not as sharp an edge as you'd get from an ALPS, but perhaps as good as silk-screening can be.  I really like the addition of Alco and Baldwin builder's plates, tho I'd have preferred more than they sent.
--
Doug Alexander
Atlanta


locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

TIM ANDREWS
 

Warren and George,

I will have to find the file on Plan N, the grade separation and removal of the NC and CG from "Downtown" Chattanooga.  I believe it was lettered "N" because it was the final plan after plans A through M were never agreed to, but I'm just speculating.  In the file there is also a discussion of a combined depot on the relocated LN mainline near where Broad Street goes over the relocated LN and Chattanooga Creek.  Of course passenger service ended before any of this was built so it became a moot point. IIRC plan N was completed with Federal urban renewal dollars, probably with Chattanooga Housing Authority money from HUD in the early 1970s.  I seem to remember the completion being mentioned in a Southern Railway annual report shortly after I became a Southern Railway stockholder (10 shares of Southern Railway preferred stock-it had a better yield then the common stock) in about 1974.

Tim Andrews

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 05:04:46 PM EST, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:


George, Remember Southern had traditionally used trackage rights on NC&StL to gain access to Stevenson Alabama and therefore Memphis (west) and to reach the AGS on the west side of Lookout Mountain (south). This new trackage was supposed to get all the way to Stevenson but for financial reasons, they only made it out as far as the AGS. He is referencing railroad south and not geographically south through St. Elmo. 

This new Southern method of egressing town to the west and south was good for Southern but it added yet another busy mainline down town for automobile traffic to contend with. Chattanooga began the interesting process of kicking the railroads out of down town not long after Southern opened this new route. Very strange episode. The city at first wanted the railroads to elevate all their trackage in town. If you ever saw a vintage aerial of Chattanooga, there were 40 foot boxcars parked everywhere. The railroads countered with how would they switch these customers. The railroads did their best to ignore the city till Chattanooga went to the state legislature and had a Chattanooga Rail Authority formed with the ability - through imminent domain - to kick the railroads out of town and at their own expense. There were proposals for a new art deco union station over close to the National Cemetery and this is what brought about the CofG and NC&St.L abandoning their original yards and the relocation of the NC from town to alongside Southern and then both were elevated over Main street. Chattanooga is a most interesting rail hub. Far more interesting to me than Atlanta.

Warren D. Stephens

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 04:35:14 PM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Warren:

I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)

Ike


On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TAG fan


On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

Ike

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>


locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

George Eichelberger
 

Warren:

Not only is Chattanooga more “interesting” than Atlanta, there are many files, drawings and photos on the area in the SRHA archives. As far as the files are concerned there were at least eight (by my count) railroads there: Southern (ETV&G), CNO&TP, AGS, Chatt Belt, Chatt Traction, CofG, TAG and NC&StL Many had trackage rights, crossing or switching agreements (incl. the three lines we think of as “Southern).

I just recently found and scanned a complete file on the pre CNO&TP Chattanooga Traction as it was attempting to get rid of street car passenger services so the power company could sell it (1935). Another interesting file covers the time when the AGS (and M&C?) built their own line out to Wauhatchee “through” Lookout Mtn.

Beyond the facilities in Chattanooga, I have been finding more information on passenger trains there than I could imagine existed…starting about 1896. I keep trying to finish an article on the “Florida Sunbeam” but material keeps turning up.

I continue to go up to the archives, generally by myself, to get files to scan but I look forward to restarting archives work sessions some time mid yea.

Ike



On Feb 11, 2021, at 5:04 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

George, Remember Southern had traditionally used trackage rights on NC&StL to gain access to Stevenson Alabama and therefore Memphis (west) and to reach the AGS on the west side of Lookout Mountain (south). This new trackage was supposed to get all the way to Stevenson but for financial reasons, they only made it out as far as the AGS. He is referencing railroad south and not geographically south through St. Elmo. 

This new Southern method of egressing town to the west and south was good for Southern but it added yet another busy mainline down town for automobile traffic to contend with. Chattanooga began the interesting process of kicking the railroads out of down town not long after Southern opened this new route. Very strange episode. The city at first wanted the railroads to elevate all their trackage in town. If you ever saw a vintage aerial of Chattanooga, there were 40 foot boxcars parked everywhere. The railroads countered with how would they switch these customers. The railroads did their best to ignore the city till Chattanooga went to the state legislature and had a Chattanooga Rail Authority formed with the ability - through imminent domain - to kick the railroads out of town and at their own expense. There were proposals for a new art deco union station over close to the National Cemetery and this is what brought about the CofG and NC&St.L abandoning their original yards and the relocation of the NC from town to alongside Southern and then both were elevated over Main street. Chattanooga is a most interesting rail hub. Far more interesting to me than Atlanta.

Warren D. Stephens

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 04:35:14 PM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Warren:

I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)

Ike


On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TAG fan


On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

Ike

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>



locked Material Wanted for Upcoming TIES Articles

Bill Schafer
 

For the 2021-2 TIES, currently being composed, we are in immediate need of the following images:

* A photograph - any photograph, no matter how old or how crappy - of the Marion Junction, Ala., depot. Marion Junction was a busy connection point on the Southern in Alabama west of Selma back in the day, and the depot lasted until about 1967. But no photos of the structure have surfaced to date.

* Photographs of any train or other railroad activity on Southern’s Akron Branch (Marion Junction-Akron, Ala.) between 1900 and 1980. Must be related to Southern’s Akron Branch (not AGS).

* Images of the following structures or flag stops on the Akron Branch: Nave, Bates, Norman, Zimmerman, Scotts Station, Coleburn, Newbern, Rosemary, Hatche, Melton, Sawyerville, Evansville, Wedgeworth.

* A map or layout of SOU’s Air Line Junction facilities (Charlotte, N.C.) before dieselization.

Please contact me off-list if you can help. Many thanks.

—Bill Schafer, co-editor, TIES


locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

Warren Stephens
 

George, Remember Southern had traditionally used trackage rights on NC&StL to gain access to Stevenson Alabama and therefore Memphis (west) and to reach the AGS on the west side of Lookout Mountain (south). This new trackage was supposed to get all the way to Stevenson but for financial reasons, they only made it out as far as the AGS. He is referencing railroad south and not geographically south through St. Elmo. 

This new Southern method of egressing town to the west and south was good for Southern but it added yet another busy mainline down town for automobile traffic to contend with. Chattanooga began the interesting process of kicking the railroads out of down town not long after Southern opened this new route. Very strange episode. The city at first wanted the railroads to elevate all their trackage in town. If you ever saw a vintage aerial of Chattanooga, there were 40 foot boxcars parked everywhere. The railroads countered with how would they switch these customers. The railroads did their best to ignore the city till Chattanooga went to the state legislature and had a Chattanooga Rail Authority formed with the ability - through imminent domain - to kick the railroads out of town and at their own expense. There were proposals for a new art deco union station over close to the National Cemetery and this is what brought about the CofG and NC&St.L abandoning their original yards and the relocation of the NC from town to alongside Southern and then both were elevated over Main street. Chattanooga is a most interesting rail hub. Far more interesting to me than Atlanta.

Warren D. Stephens

On Thursday, February 11, 2021, 04:35:14 PM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Warren:

I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)

Ike


On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TAG fan


On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

Ike

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>


locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

George Eichelberger
 

Warren:

I cannot say definitively there was no St. Elmo station but I can find no references to it in any of the Southern files I have scanned. (The “line from the south” in his letter I found confusing.)

Ike


On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TAG fan


On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

Ike

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>


locked Re: Depot for St. Elmo, TN

Warren Stephens
 

To be honest I am not totally certain where St. Elmo ends and Chattanooga and/or Alton Park begins. This gentleman is obviously referring to the new Southern alignment which was being crafted partly by upgrading Belt Railway of Chattanooga trackage to mainline and then an entirely new right of way from just south of Shipp yard. This junction of upgraded Belt and new right of way was called “Southern Extension” in TAG employees timetables. Just below the meeting of old a new trackage a natural wye occurred on what was still the Chattanooga Belt. It was here that TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their turntable at Alton Park. The new right of way began a climb to Lookout Mountain tunnel almost immediately after Shipp and was therefore elevated by the time it reached what I have always believed to be St. Elmo city limits. St. Elmo had always been connected to down town Chattanooga. By street car and by the Chattanooga Union Railway steam dummy and by the Chattanooga and Lookout Mountain Railway but as the letter stated only the street car remained by this point. Vintage maps indicate that there was a St. Elmo station on the Chattanooga Union Railway (later Chattanooga Belt) trackage used by Chattanooga Southern (later TAG) to reach the state line. I assume it was used by TAG and steam dummy trains and I can’t see it being very elaborate. By virtue of the fact that the new AGS alignment was elevated through St. Elmo, I doubt this station was ever built. I also doubt the AGS really saw a need for a suburban station that close to Terminal Station. As the crow flys maybe three to three and a half miles? 

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TAG fan


On Feb 11, 2021, at 8:58 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

Ike

<1916-1-19 St. Elmo, TN depot request.jpeg>


locked Depot for St. Elmo, TN

George Eichelberger
 

Until the time of WWI, one of the marks of an “up to date little town” was to have its own freight and passenger stations. The SRHA archives have many letters, similar to the attachment, touting the status of towns, or even developers’ dream of where a town will be, to the Southern in hopes of having a depot built and becoming a timetable stop.

In some cases, the Southern would decline to spend the money but would offer to let whoever was promoting the concept pay to build a combination freight and passenger station on company property to be owned and controlled by the railroad. Having an established post office in the town was almost always a requirement so mail revenue could add to the revenues.

The attached letter from the St. Elmo, TN Business League is typical. SRHA archives "Box  O File 167” does not offer information on if a depot was ever built for St. Elmo (a suburb of Chattanooga).

Ike


locked Re: Steam Decal Artwork

Doug Alexander
 

I got a couple of sets, and they look pretty good.  Not as sharp an edge as you'd get from an ALPS, but perhaps as good as silk-screening can be.  I really like the addition of Alco and Baldwin builder's plates, tho I'd have preferred more than they sent.
--
Doug Alexander
Atlanta


locked Re: Steam Decal Artwork

O Fenton Wells
 

Yes they were called dulux gold. That lasted much better on the cars and locomotives that the gold leaf
Fenton

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 9:10 PM David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
While i'm not in the market for these, I did read on facebook that those decals are gold colored, but are not metallic (gold leaf) gold, in case that matters.

David Friedlander

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 8:55 PM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
I’ve had good luck with K4 but admit I’m not the go to guy on the accuracy of prototype vs decal lettering. 
I’ll have to scope out the K4 SR offerings 
Fenton 


On Feb 9, 2021, at 7:43 PM, George Courtney via groups.io <gsc3=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don't know how accurate they are, but K-4 Decal's just released a set of decals for Southern Steam.

George Courtney



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


locked Re: Steam Decal Artwork

David Friedlander
 

While i'm not in the market for these, I did read on facebook that those decals are gold colored, but are not metallic (gold leaf) gold, in case that matters.

David Friedlander

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 8:55 PM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
I’ve had good luck with K4 but admit I’m not the go to guy on the accuracy of prototype vs decal lettering. 
I’ll have to scope out the K4 SR offerings 
Fenton 


On Feb 9, 2021, at 7:43 PM, George Courtney via groups.io <gsc3=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don't know how accurate they are, but K-4 Decal's just released a set of decals for Southern Steam.

George Courtney


locked Re: Steam Decal Artwork

O Fenton Wells
 

I’ve had good luck with K4 but admit I’m not the go to guy on the accuracy of prototype vs decal lettering. 
I’ll have to scope out the K4 SR offerings 
Fenton 


On Feb 9, 2021, at 7:43 PM, George Courtney via groups.io <gsc3@...> wrote:

I don't know how accurate they are, but K-4 Decal's just released a set of decals for Southern Steam.

George Courtney


locked Re: Steam Decal Artwork

George Courtney
 

I don't know how accurate they are, but K-4 Decal's just released a set of decals for Southern Steam.

George Courtney


locked Re: Savannah and Atlanta Cab X-256 (and SOU X-255)

David Friedlander
 

The yellow bellies are indeed locals.  I plan on loosely modeling around Atlanta, so this works for me. Just trying to figure out if I ever decided I want one, if I was to paint it for around 1970, should it be the new or old schemes.

Dave,

Looks like someone has been trying to reach the owner of the website, which seems to be you now. :-)     https://ncrails.com/hosam-com/   Hopefully you can reach out to Steve about website preservation. Not entirely sure what he is looking to do other than incorporate some of the information there on his own site.  His site is a rather nice resource IMHO.

I appreciate you keeping it going.  It's very basic, so I can't imagine there is a whole lot to get hacked, but I have no idea what the backend is like.  As Steve has done, I too think I haved saved off most anything I wanted in case it did perish.  I haven't noticed any errors in my usage of the site, but I admit my usage has been light.  If upkeep is a concern, there's always the option to try to roll it into some sort of free blog.  The lift shouldn't be too difficult if needed.

I use the Image Archive from Tom Daspit often, or at least used to.  I have run across broken links before, but have no room to complain. If Tom wants out, I don't actually know how IRM pulled off their usage of smugmug (https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/), but if it's free, it may make sense to slowly shift the photos over if the upkeep of his site is too much, but I realize there is more than just the image archive. Then you get dependent on smugmug and how they run business.  Pro's and Con's to every decision.

In both cases, I don't know what it costs to keep the sites up. If the current owners want out and if the SRHA wants to bring these sorts of resources in-house, then that is also an option.  As a lifetime SRHA member, I can most definitely find some time to help out with some of that work if desired.  The powers that be just have to figure out if the owners want out and if these are things the SRHA as a whole are interested in owning and maintaining.

David Friedlander


On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 11:37 PM A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:
David,

You mentioned hosam.com as your source for painting info.     I pay the upkeep on the site and domain name now that Sam and Hank have both passed away.    I have not tried to edit/add to that site over the years, though I probably should.   If anyone knows of egregious errors on that site, please let me know and I'll remove them.

At one point, I had hoped to carry on Sam's work to provide even more information in such an accessible format, especially on the Southern Railway, but then it was hard enough some years to remember to pay the server bill and double check the site hadn't been hacked.   So it has remained static for more than a decade.

I would be happy to remove errors though, if they are clear and egregious.   Most of the time, I think Sam got it right (or at least fairly chose between options when the evidence was not 100% clear).   I only keep the site up as a memorial to Sam and because I gave Hank my word I would continue it as long as I could.  But I don't want to create confusion by promoting errors that have been proven wrong.  Sam would have wanted those corrected, too.

I often wonder what will happen to southern.railfan.net if Tom Daspit runs out of track some day, too.  I use that site as a reference at least 3-4 times a year, and I bet a lot of others do too.

Thoughts like these are the reason I keep hosam.com up and why I donate to the SRHA.  SRHA is the only organization that is dedicated to preserving the Southern's historical information. An individual may have a friend or two, like Hank and then me, to help when they falter. But individuals still fall to the wayside at some point.  Collective action is more sustainable.  Our best bet to preserve the legacy is to help the SRHA  preserve and share its information.

Dave Bott

Monday, February 8, 2021, 6:48:30 PM, you wrote:


Hi all,

I just received my 2020Q4 TIES.  It was very well done. Kudos to those who take the time to produce these articles.

I now have excuses to run 30-car silversides trains.

In any case, I had a question about the S&A caboose shown on page 23.  When did this NE-style caboose get repainted from the (White and/or Off-White) to SOU red/yellow?

Here's a photo of it prior to the repaint:
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/caboose/sa256.jpg

I might as well ask - Would the colors match S&A 251 on page 22? Looking at Sam McCall's website, it looks like my initial thoughts are correct: http://hosam.com/roads/sa.html  (white sides, black roof, caboose red ends.)

The image archive also has an interesting photo of X-255. When did it get its windows plated over and repainted into Southern? These look like neat projects for way down the road.
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/caboose/soux255billbedellandoverva7181.html

Thanks,
David Friedlander



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Savannah and Atlanta Cab X-256 (and SOU X-255)

A&Y Dave in MD
 

David,

You mentioned hosam.com as your source for painting info.     I pay the upkeep on the site and domain name now that Sam and Hank have both passed away.    I have not tried to edit/add to that site over the years, though I probably should.   If anyone knows of egregious errors on that site, please let me know and I'll remove them.

At one point, I had hoped to carry on Sam's work to provide even more information in such an accessible format, especially on the Southern Railway, but then it was hard enough some years to remember to pay the server bill and double check the site hadn't been hacked.   So it has remained static for more than a decade.

I would be happy to remove errors though, if they are clear and egregious.   Most of the time, I think Sam got it right (or at least fairly chose between options when the evidence was not 100% clear).   I only keep the site up as a memorial to Sam and because I gave Hank my word I would continue it as long as I could.  But I don't want to create confusion by promoting errors that have been proven wrong.  Sam would have wanted those corrected, too.

I often wonder what will happen to southern.railfan.net if Tom Daspit runs out of track some day, too.  I use that site as a reference at least 3-4 times a year, and I bet a lot of others do too.

Thoughts like these are the reason I keep hosam.com up and why I donate to the SRHA.  SRHA is the only organization that is dedicated to preserving the Southern's historical information. An individual may have a friend or two, like Hank and then me, to help when they falter. But individuals still fall to the wayside at some point.  Collective action is more sustainable.  Our best bet to preserve the legacy is to help the SRHA  preserve and share its information.

Dave Bott

Monday, February 8, 2021, 6:48:30 PM, you wrote:


Hi all,

I just received my 2020Q4 TIES.  It was very well done. Kudos to those who take the time to produce these articles.

I now have excuses to run 30-car silversides trains.

In any case, I had a question about the S&A caboose shown on page 23.  When did this NE-style caboose get repainted from the (White and/or Off-White) to SOU red/yellow?

Here's a photo of it prior to the repaint:
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/caboose/sa256.jpg

I might as well ask - Would the colors match S&A 251 on page 22? Looking at Sam McCall's website, it looks like my initial thoughts are correct: http://hosam.com/roads/sa.html  (white sides, black roof, caboose red ends.)

The image archive also has an interesting photo of X-255. When did it get its windows plated over and repainted into Southern? These look like neat projects for way down the road.
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/caboose/soux255billbedellandoverva7181.html

Thanks,
David Friedlander



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Savannah and Atlanta Cab X-256 (and SOU X-255)

Carl Ardrey
 

The “yellow bellies” were assigned to outlying  locals due to the fact they weren’t equipped with generators so no radio.
CEA


On Feb 8, 2021, at 9:08 PM, Michael Sherbak II via groups.io <msherbak11@...> wrote:

Also - I believe one of these cabooses is located in Varnville SC 

Michael
803-293-5568


On Feb 8, 2021, at 20:39, Michael J Sherbak II <msherbak11@...> wrote:

Didn’t the yellow cupola indicate a local ? 

Michael
803-293-5568


On Feb 8, 2021, at 19:44, Warren Calloway <wcalloway@...> wrote:


<image0.jpeg>



On Feb 8, 2021, at 6:49 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:


Hi all,

I just received my 2020Q4 TIES.  It was very well done. Kudos to those who take the time to produce these articles.

I now have excuses to run 30-car silversides trains.

In any case, I had a question about the S&A caboose shown on page 23.  When did this NE-style caboose get repainted from the (White and/or Off-White) to SOU red/yellow?

Here's a photo of it prior to the repaint:

I might as well ask - Would the colors match S&A 251 on page 22? Looking at Sam McCall's website, it looks like my initial thoughts are correct: http://hosam.com/roads/sa.html  (white sides, black roof, caboose red ends.)

The image archive also has an interesting photo of X-255. When did it get its windows plated over and repainted into Southern? These look like neat projects for way down the road.

Thanks,
David Friedlander

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