Date   

locked Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

aramsay18
 

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Andrew R <aramsay37@...>
Date: Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
To: <main@southernrailway.groups.io>


Was this installation located on the military reservation shown on your Greensboro map?


Thanks
Andy Ramsay
Berryville VA


On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 8:26 PM Andrew R <aramsay37@...> wrote:
Dave, what was the military reservation on your map?

Thanks

Andy Ramsay 
Berryville VA

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021, 8:20 PM A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:
Forgot the map.

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Mar 7, 2021, at 8:19 PM, David Bott <dbott@...> wrote:

A decade older, but here is a map I drew based upon a 1943 map.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:30 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote:


I always enjoy the communication on "Southern Memories".   Been here for several years.

My first request for information is for a "map - overview" of the Greensboro, N.C. area  in the mid  1950's.  My family lived there from 1952 until 1962.
Thanks 

Rod S.


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 2:37 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
 
Dear Mr. Henderson,

Thank you very much for this valuable information and the "inside story" of your own experiences while traveling with Amtrak.

I hadn't thought that the crews might have actually slept in bedrolls on the floor, but that's certainly a possibility on the Southern.  The heavyweight diners had bedding lockers in one end of the cars, but there was no indication of the storage of boards that might have been put on top of the tables to support that bedding.

Have you ever written about your experiences as a waiter for a railroad history group?

Bob Grabarek


-----Original Message-----
>From: "bjarne@..." <bjarne@...>
>Sent: Mar 6, 2021 12:17 AM
>To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
>Cc: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
>Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
>
>When I worked as a dining car waiter for Amtrak in the 1970s, some of the more senior guys would talk about how they laid out their bedrolls on the floor of the diner.  The tables had latches that folded up and the chairs could be moved to the sides.  Linens were kept in lockers at the end of the dining car or in trap door lockers in the floor.  It was not very comfortable -- but given that almost everything was made from scratch -- they probably did not have lights out until after 11 pm and then had to be back on duty to prep the car for breakfast starting at 4:30 or 5 am for a 6 o'clock breakfast start.  It was a hard life; dorms were definitely a step up -- though some dorms were better than others.  I preferred the SP and UP ones.  The lounge dorms were the worst as you had the noise of the drunks.  The combines -- depending on where you had your bunk -- had the noise of baggage being handled at night -- or, in the case of the El Cap combines, had a nasty habit of losing their air conditioning.  Stewards and lounge car attendants with cash and keys had rooms -- bedrooms for stewards and roomettes or slumbercoach rooms for lounge car attendants.   /s/ Bjarne Henderson, Valparaiso, IN






locked Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

Rodney Shu
 

One last thing.  When I was a year and a half old, my dad was a Trainmaster there. We lived in the Hill St. apartments and I snuck off twice and they found me in the creek that ran through the park.   Wonder I didn't drown.   😊




From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Graves, William W <wwg@...>
Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 10:06 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
 

Rodney, Kevin and All –

 

> With the closing of the Chandler Concrete plant (near Battleground and Mill Street), the evidence of the west bound A&Y is disappearing.

I had wondered if that was still in operation.  I always thought Greensboro lost a great transit opportunity when they shortened that line.

 

> I am very interested that there was a derrick stored on the A&Y north of the water treatment plant.

Well, I was hanging out there in the 1956-58 time frame (When I was 10-12) and we would play on it.  (Not sure I ever saw a train on that line, although I know there were.)  Memory says the derrick was very small and not powered.  Other than that it would have been about 2/3’s the way to the Chandler siding, I’m afraid I don’t have much else on it.

 

> The military reservation here was known as the ORD – Overseas Replacement Depot. 

Thank you Kevin, I could not remember the name for the area!

 

> It would be great if you could share any photographs that you may have of Greensboro and trains

Sorry, I was too young to know I needed to be taking pictures and while my father was a semi-rail fan, it did not extend to picture taking.

 

And yes Rodney, it was Latham Park with the Little League fields.  When I lived across from there, they still had a park train too.  The creosote plant must have been gone by the time I was there.

Thanks for all the memories!

- Bill


locked Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

Graves, William W
 

Rodney, Kevin and All –

 

> With the closing of the Chandler Concrete plant (near Battleground and Mill Street), the evidence of the west bound A&Y is disappearing.

I had wondered if that was still in operation.  I always thought Greensboro lost a great transit opportunity when they shortened that line.

 

> I am very interested that there was a derrick stored on the A&Y north of the water treatment plant.

Well, I was hanging out there in the 1956-58 time frame (When I was 10-12) and we would play on it.  (Not sure I ever saw a train on that line, although I know there were.)  Memory says the derrick was very small and not powered.  Other than that it would have been about 2/3’s the way to the Chandler siding, I’m afraid I don’t have much else on it.

 

> The military reservation here was known as the ORD – Overseas Replacement Depot. 

Thank you Kevin, I could not remember the name for the area!

 

> It would be great if you could share any photographs that you may have of Greensboro and trains

Sorry, I was too young to know I needed to be taking pictures and while my father was a semi-rail fan, it did not extend to picture taking.

 

And yes Rodney, it was Latham Park with the Little League fields.  When I lived across from there, they still had a park train too.  The creosote plant must have been gone by the time I was there.

Thanks for all the memories!

- Bill


locked Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

George Eichelberger
 

Greensboro, NC is well represented in the SRHA Archives digital files with 121 items. In the “Contracts” file, No. 821 covers the A&Y in 1924. Certainly some great material for a well researched TIES article! If someone will plan to get to an archive work session this Summer or Fall, they can look through everything and help locate other items to scan.

Here are two examples.

Ike




On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:50 AM, Kevin von der Lippe <kevin.vonderlippe@...> wrote:

Bill,

 

Thank you for sharing.  With the closing of the Chandler Concrete plant (near Battleground and Mill Street), the evidence of the west bound A&Y is disappearing.

 

I am very interested that there was a derrick stored on the A&Y north of the water treatment plant.

 

The military reservation here was known as the ORD – Overseas Replacement Depot.  Some of the WWII buildings still exist, as well as remnants of the trackwork.  The Greensboro History Museum published an interesting photograph book via Arcadia of the ORD.

 

It would be great if you could share any photographs that you may have of Greensboro and trains – the Greensboro Chapter of the NRHS is always looking.

 

Kevin von der Lippe
Oak Ridge, NC


locked Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

Kevin von der Lippe
 

Bill,

 

Thank you for sharing.  With the closing of the Chandler Concrete plant (near Battleground and Mill Street), the evidence of the west bound A&Y is disappearing.

 

I am very interested that there was a derrick stored on the A&Y north of the water treatment plant.

 

The military reservation here was known as the ORD – Overseas Replacement Depot.  Some of the WWII buildings still exist, as well as remnants of the trackwork.  The Greensboro History Museum published an interesting photograph book via Arcadia of the ORD.

 

It would be great if you could share any photographs that you may have of Greensboro and trains – the Greensboro Chapter of the NRHS is always looking.

 

Kevin von der Lippe

Oak Ridge, NC


locked Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

Graves, William W
 

Just to add a little trivia to this topic…

 

Dave’s map is quite good.  I spent part of my childhood there from 54 to the late 60’s.  (Across from the Vick’s plant for awhile and near the A&Y northern line later.)  There was an industrial spur track at the Vick’s plant and at least two on the A&Y just north of the water plant.  There were also two decent trestles near the Duke Power plant, one on the plant spur and one on the “beltline”.  I do remember seeing trains serving the Vick’s plant and the power plant and a derrick stored on the spur (pass track?) just north of the water plant.

 

Other tracks I remember served what’s listed as the “Military Reservation” and came off the Raleigh line.  They ran north from the cigarette factories to about E. Bessemer and then had several tracks turn west for a few blocks that served a few warehouses.  Also (and this may have been later), there was a spur built downtown to serve the Greensboro Daily News printing facility.  It was very tightly fitted between several buildings.

 

Haven’t been back in about 15 years, so I am unsure what still exists other than the “mains”.

 

Damn, I’m old!

- Bill


locked Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Forgot the map.

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Mar 7, 2021, at 8:19 PM, David Bott <dbott@...> wrote:

A decade older, but here is a map I drew based upon a 1943 map.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:30 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote:


I always enjoy the communication on "Southern Memories".   Been here for several years.

My first request for information is for a "map - overview" of the Greensboro, N.C. area  in the mid  1950's.  My family lived there from 1952 until 1962.
Thanks 

Rod S.


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 2:37 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
 
Dear Mr. Henderson,

Thank you very much for this valuable information and the "inside story" of your own experiences while traveling with Amtrak.

I hadn't thought that the crews might have actually slept in bedrolls on the floor, but that's certainly a possibility on the Southern.  The heavyweight diners had bedding lockers in one end of the cars, but there was no indication of the storage of boards that might have been put on top of the tables to support that bedding.

Have you ever written about your experiences as a waiter for a railroad history group?

Bob Grabarek


-----Original Message-----
>From: "bjarne@..." <bjarne@...>
>Sent: Mar 6, 2021 12:17 AM
>To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
>Cc: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
>Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
>
>When I worked as a dining car waiter for Amtrak in the 1970s, some of the more senior guys would talk about how they laid out their bedrolls on the floor of the diner.  The tables had latches that folded up and the chairs could be moved to the sides.  Linens were kept in lockers at the end of the dining car or in trap door lockers in the floor.  It was not very comfortable -- but given that almost everything was made from scratch -- they probably did not have lights out until after 11 pm and then had to be back on duty to prep the car for breakfast starting at 4:30 or 5 am for a 6 o'clock breakfast start.  It was a hard life; dorms were definitely a step up -- though some dorms were better than others.  I preferred the SP and UP ones.  The lounge dorms were the worst as you had the noise of the drunks.  The combines -- depending on where you had your bunk -- had the noise of baggage being handled at night -- or, in the case of the El Cap combines, had a nasty habit of losing their air conditioning.  Stewards and lounge car attendants with cash and keys had rooms -- bedrooms for stewards and roomettes or slumbercoach rooms for lounge car attendants.   /s/ Bjarne Henderson, Valparaiso, IN






locked Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

A&Y Dave in MD
 

A decade older, but here is a map I drew based upon a 1943 map.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:30 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote:


I always enjoy the communication on "Southern Memories".   Been here for several years.

My first request for information is for a "map - overview" of the Greensboro, N.C. area  in the mid  1950's.  My family lived there from 1952 until 1962.
Thanks 

Rod S.


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 2:37 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
 
Dear Mr. Henderson,

Thank you very much for this valuable information and the "inside story" of your own experiences while traveling with Amtrak.

I hadn't thought that the crews might have actually slept in bedrolls on the floor, but that's certainly a possibility on the Southern.  The heavyweight diners had bedding lockers in one end of the cars, but there was no indication of the storage of boards that might have been put on top of the tables to support that bedding.

Have you ever written about your experiences as a waiter for a railroad history group?

Bob Grabarek


-----Original Message-----
>From: "bjarne@..." <bjarne@...>
>Sent: Mar 6, 2021 12:17 AM
>To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
>Cc: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
>Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
>
>When I worked as a dining car waiter for Amtrak in the 1970s, some of the more senior guys would talk about how they laid out their bedrolls on the floor of the diner.  The tables had latches that folded up and the chairs could be moved to the sides.  Linens were kept in lockers at the end of the dining car or in trap door lockers in the floor.  It was not very comfortable -- but given that almost everything was made from scratch -- they probably did not have lights out until after 11 pm and then had to be back on duty to prep the car for breakfast starting at 4:30 or 5 am for a 6 o'clock breakfast start.  It was a hard life; dorms were definitely a step up -- though some dorms were better than others.  I preferred the SP and UP ones.  The lounge dorms were the worst as you had the noise of the drunks.  The combines -- depending on where you had your bunk -- had the noise of baggage being handled at night -- or, in the case of the El Cap combines, had a nasty habit of losing their air conditioning.  Stewards and lounge car attendants with cash and keys had rooms -- bedrooms for stewards and roomettes or slumbercoach rooms for lounge car attendants.   /s/ Bjarne Henderson, Valparaiso, IN






locked Re: Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

Rodney Shu
 

I always enjoy the communication on "Southern Memories".   Been here for several years.

My first request for information is for a "map - overview" of the Greensboro, N.C. area  in the mid  1950's.  My family lived there from 1952 until 1962.
Thanks 

Rod S.


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 2:37 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
 
Dear Mr. Henderson,

Thank you very much for this valuable information and the "inside story" of your own experiences while traveling with Amtrak.

I hadn't thought that the crews might have actually slept in bedrolls on the floor, but that's certainly a possibility on the Southern.  The heavyweight diners had bedding lockers in one end of the cars, but there was no indication of the storage of boards that might have been put on top of the tables to support that bedding.

Have you ever written about your experiences as a waiter for a railroad history group?

Bob Grabarek


-----Original Message-----
>From: "bjarne@..." <bjarne@...>
>Sent: Mar 6, 2021 12:17 AM
>To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
>Cc: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
>Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
>
>When I worked as a dining car waiter for Amtrak in the 1970s, some of the more senior guys would talk about how they laid out their bedrolls on the floor of the diner.  The tables had latches that folded up and the chairs could be moved to the sides.  Linens were kept in lockers at the end of the dining car or in trap door lockers in the floor.  It was not very comfortable -- but given that almost everything was made from scratch -- they probably did not have lights out until after 11 pm and then had to be back on duty to prep the car for breakfast starting at 4:30 or 5 am for a 6 o'clock breakfast start.  It was a hard life; dorms were definitely a step up -- though some dorms were better than others.  I preferred the SP and UP ones.  The lounge dorms were the worst as you had the noise of the drunks.  The combines -- depending on where you had your bunk -- had the noise of baggage being handled at night -- or, in the case of the El Cap combines, had a nasty habit of losing their air conditioning.  Stewards and lounge car attendants with cash and keys had rooms -- bedrooms for stewards and roomettes or slumbercoach rooms for lounge car attendants.   /s/ Bjarne Henderson, Valparaiso, IN






locked Re: Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
 

Dear Mr. Henderson,

Thank you very much for this valuable information and the "inside story" of your own experiences while traveling with Amtrak.

I hadn't thought that the crews might have actually slept in bedrolls on the floor, but that's certainly a possibility on the Southern. The heavyweight diners had bedding lockers in one end of the cars, but there was no indication of the storage of boards that might have been put on top of the tables to support that bedding.

Have you ever written about your experiences as a waiter for a railroad history group?

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: "bjarne@juno.com" <bjarne@juno.com>
Sent: Mar 6, 2021 12:17 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

When I worked as a dining car waiter for Amtrak in the 1970s, some of the more senior guys would talk about how they laid out their bedrolls on the floor of the diner. The tables had latches that folded up and the chairs could be moved to the sides. Linens were kept in lockers at the end of the dining car or in trap door lockers in the floor. It was not very comfortable -- but given that almost everything was made from scratch -- they probably did not have lights out until after 11 pm and then had to be back on duty to prep the car for breakfast starting at 4:30 or 5 am for a 6 o'clock breakfast start. It was a hard life; dorms were definitely a step up -- though some dorms were better than others. I preferred the SP and UP ones. The lounge dorms were the worst as you had the noise of the drunks. The combines -- depending on where you had your bunk -- had the noise of baggage being handled at night -- or, in the case of the El Cap combines, had a nasty habit of losing their air conditioning. Stewards and lounge car attendants with cash and keys had rooms -- bedrooms for stewards and roomettes or slumbercoach rooms for lounge car attendants. /s/ Bjarne Henderson, Valparaiso, IN


locked Sands And Company

Carl Ardrey
 

Scanning some Washington Division files and came across a file on Sands and Co.  Evidently, early on they had some competition and the Southern Railway split the territory.


locked Re: Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

bjarne@juno.com
 

When I worked as a dining car waiter for Amtrak in the 1970s, some of the more senior guys would talk about how they laid out their bedrolls on the floor of the diner. The tables had latches that folded up and the chairs could be moved to the sides. Linens were kept in lockers at the end of the dining car or in trap door lockers in the floor. It was not very comfortable -- but given that almost everything was made from scratch -- they probably did not have lights out until after 11 pm and then had to be back on duty to prep the car for breakfast starting at 4:30 or 5 am for a 6 o'clock breakfast start. It was a hard life; dorms were definitely a step up -- though some dorms were better than others. I preferred the SP and UP ones. The lounge dorms were the worst as you had the noise of the drunks. The combines -- depending on where you had your bunk -- had the noise of baggage being handled at night -- or, in the case of the El Cap combines, had a nasty habit of losing their air conditioning. Stewards and lounge car attendants with cash and keys had rooms -- bedrooms for stewards and roomettes or slumbercoach rooms for lounge car attendants. /s/ Bjarne Henderson, Valparaiso, IN


locked Re: Double Track Projects in 1909

Stephen Warner
 

Interesting that Sevier to Morristown was not listed, as this was the only DT east of Knoxville that to my knowledge was put into place.  I wonder when that was put in.  But if one assumes that all traffic between Sevier and Carnegie/Asheville combined used this route, this would amount to 58 trains every 24 hr. period, or 1802 for the month of Oct.  Also that made dispatching easier for such volumes as Rule (D) 251 allowed both tracks to operate independently by direction under ABS with only a Clearance Card required to operate.


locked Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars

Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
 

Can anyone provide details of the sleeping arrangements made when dining car crews slept overnight on their diners?  For example, were boards placed on or between the tables?  Were the stewards accommodated in the same manner?

Thanks.

Bob Grabarek


locked Greensboro Passenger Station

Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
 

The passenger station in Greensboro, NC, (opened in 1926) had platform tracks numbered 1,2,3,4,5,and 6.  There was a through track between tracks 2 and 3.  Does anyone know the name or number of this through track?

Bob Grabarek


locked Double Track Projects in 1909

George Eichelberger
 

The passage of the law limiting train crews to 16 hour days plus increasing traffic on the Southern led the Washington office to ask for train counts on routes that might be candidates for double track projects.
Here is one part of the response from the General Superintendent at Knoxville…

Ike



locked Re: AAR Cars on Home Roads Letter

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Ike, 

Thank you for posting that  - it's a fascinating set of numbers that might challenge some long held ideas, especially in relation to the movement of hoppers and gondolas

Aidrian

On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 1:25 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
From the SRHA Archives:

AAR letters for the years during and after WWII are “rich” in freight car information. The Southern typically had many cars off line by design. Per Diem revenues were an important income.

Ike


locked Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

Jeffrey Thompson
 

George,

No Ps-3 engines in the line-up. Only Ps-4s.  

Jeff


On Mar 1, 2021, at 8:39 PM, George Courtney via groups.io <gsc3@...> wrote:

Jeff,

    In your Southern Passenger loco lineup, are any PS-3's?  I would guess next to your beautiful, 1380.  Sheer dumb curiousity.


locked Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Ray, sorry to be slow in answering.

The finishing practices for steam engines changed in 1934 and I don't
think any of the special lettered Crescent Limited engines were
repainted in the new style before the train was discontinued. The old
scheme was provided with gold leaf lining and striping and the whole
engine varnished before it went into service; the later scheme used an
enamel-type finish with striping and lettering painted on using
imitation gold and the varnish coat was left off. T

The varnish is what made the difference; the older colour is
sometimes referred to as "Virginia Green" and reportedly appeared
slightly darker than the later colour. Dupont colours were used in
both styles and, as far as I can tell after the thick end of ninety
years, the basic shade of green didn't change significantly as the
paint name stayed the same.

Varnish of the period tended to be a deep amber colour which acted as
a sort of filter on the reflected light, resulting in a rather deeper
and richer finish then the bare enamel paint. In full size work you
can still achieve this look by using yacht varnish over the top coat,
but the very thin coat you would need for model work would lose much
of the effect. If you can get Scalecoat paints ( we haven't seen them
in these parts for many years and my last bottle has now passed on)
then a little dab of reddish brown added to their Southern green will
get you some of the way.

Aidrian

On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 4:38 PM Ray Bedard <tczephyr@hotmail.com> wrote:

I'm in the process of painting a Ps4 4-6-2 in the Crescent Ltd green. Does anyone have any suggestions on what brand and what green best represents the prototype?
Thanks,
RAY


locked Re: Southern Ps4 4-6-2 Crescent Paint Question

George Courtney
 

Jeff,

    In your Southern Passenger loco lineup, are any PS-3's?  I would guess next to your beautiful, 1380.  Sheer dumb curiousity.

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