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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service. My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response. This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service. 950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6. I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2. Another car was required for the fourth round trip. I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car. Bob Grabarek
-----Original Message-----
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Bill Schafer
Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate.
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—Bill
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research. I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor." (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.) I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950. This car was detached at Atlanta. My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three. Bob Grabarek
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Michael Young
At the time of the Amtrak takeover, Southern had what was called "step on-step off" agreements with the union, whereby some on-board service jobs were able to "swap out" employees at certain intermediate stations. I used to have copies of correspondence regarding them, but they're long gone now. I seem to recall several jobs turned at Salisbury, and maybe one or two at Greensboro. Amtrak was adamant that such arrangements were not permitted under their labor agreement, and they would not continue them. The affected employees would have to report at either the Atlanta or Washington Crew Base to begin their runs, and if they did not relocate they would be responsible for getting there on their own time.
Mike Young
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Sent: Tue, Mar 16, 2021 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles Southern Railway’s trains 47/48, the Southerner, became trains 1/2, the Southern Crescent, in the February 1970 timetable. In October 1970, you were riding the Southern Crescent.
I think that October 1970 was not pre-Southern Crescent, was it? I am positive that the train went through Birmingham at that time. I remember looking at the hat checks above peoples seats and trying to figure out the abbreviations.
Having just arrived from the Maritime provinces in Canada I didn’t know the country as well as I wanted to. I thought that this train terminated in Atlanta but I could see that it was not going to do so.
I remember figuring out the Birmingham abbreviation whatever it was, and then being perplexed over the “NO” written on the hat checks. There seemed to be a lot of those. Then I realized where it was, and I was wishing that I had bought a ticket there instead! I wanted to go farther.
Steve Ellis
On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:45 AM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Bill Schafer
Southern Railway’s trains 47/48, the Southerner, became trains 1/2, the Southern Crescent, in the February 1970 timetable. In October 1970, you were riding the Southern Crescent.
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Steve Ellis
I think that October 1970 was not pre-Southern Crescent, was it? I am positive that the train went through Birmingham at that time. I remember looking at the hat checks above peoples seats and trying to figure out the abbreviations.
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Having just arrived from the Maritime provinces in Canada I didn’t know the country as well as I wanted to. I thought that this train terminated in Atlanta but I could see that it was not going to do so. I remember figuring out the Birmingham abbreviation whatever it was, and then being perplexed over the “NO” written on the hat checks. There seemed to be a lot of those. Then I realized where it was, and I was wishing that I had bought a ticket there instead! I wanted to go farther. Steve Ellis
On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:45 AM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
George Eichelberger
Like many other manpower decisions, labor agreements had to be included before changes were made. Here is a 10-11-67 memo about SR food service jobs.
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Ike PS: There is a significant amount of “dining car” material in the SRHA archives. We need someone interested in the subject to dig through what we have and produce an article for TIES. 
On Mar 16, 2021, at 10:46 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote: This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges. At one time, maybe as late as the 1960s, Southern dining car crews were based in Cincinnati, Chattanooga, and Washington (and maybe some other places, like Asheville) in addition to Atlanta. I don’t know what their work cycles were; that info is probably in the SRHA archives somewhere. I’m not aware that any full crews were based in New Orleans, at least by the 1950s or 1960s.
During the post-Amtrak Southern Crescent era, I know of at least one steward, Steve Cosmos, who lived in Birmingham, but his crew base was Atlanta. He worked on one of the three long crews and had to deadhead or drive Birmingham-Atlanta to go on or off duty. Pre-Amtrak, Steve had been furloughed for years, but with the clustered retirements in the early-1970s, he was called back to work. I’m sure there were others like him who lived away from Atlanta but had to report there for duty.
—Bill
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Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
Steve Ellis
Thank you again, Mr. Schafer. I have mentioned by trip on the Southern Railway in October 1970 a few times. I just wanted to add that it was very refreshing to meet a friendly crew when I got on the Southern.
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That was actually a trip that began far to the north in a place called Bathurst, New Brunswick, Canada. That is where I lived until I graduated from high school and for a few months afterwards. I hated the winters up there, and I dreamed of going to Georgia throughout my high school career. I worked that summer and earned enough money for a train trip to Atlanta. I went to Montreal on the CNR where I had to change trains. I belong to a Canadian train group as well, and I have asked them if they know any reason why people working on the Delaware and Hudson/Penn Central train from Montreal to New York City at that time were so ill tempered. This was my first trip into the US, and I was full of anticipation and excitement about a place I had longed to go. At Windsor Station in Montreal, I went through the gate, and I saw the train. I asked the conductor there where the coach cars were, and he literally screamed back at me: “Where are you going?” I replied that I was going to Atlanta, and he screamed back at somebody else “New York.” I got on the train, and I found a café car and wanted to buy a cold drink. The attendant there screamed at me: “What do you want?“ I asked him if he had any Coke, and he screamed back: “No!” I was beginning to wonder if everything was going to be different south of the border because everybody seemed so disagreeable. I started walking back toward my seat, and I met the first friendly crewmember there was. He was a black man wearing a white cotton jacket, and he had apparently heard the exchange between the cafe attendant and me. He kindly asked: “Did you get your soda?” I said no that the man said he didn’t have any. People on the Penn Central between New York City and Washington were reasonable if not overly friendly. People on the Southern Railroad were very nice, and I was feeling better all the time. I went to the dining car, and I was a little confused that I had to write my own order, but the crew was very cordial. On the way back going north out of New York City, the train was a combined Montreal and Chicago train that split at Albany. Perhaps 45 minutes or an hour after we left Grand Central Terminal, the conductor came through the car with a male passenger following him. Just like the conductor I first met in Windsor Station in Montreal, this man was an older person, and he seemed to be in just as bad mood as the first one I met. He yelled out loudly enough so that everybody in the car could hear: “Is anybody else on this car going to Chicago? This car is going to Montreal.” Nobody answered him and so he said, in a very impolite tone to the passenger with him: “Come on!” I wonder if the reason those employees were so unhappy is because they knew Amtrak was coming in a few months, and they were afraid they were going to lose their job. On the other hand, I wonder if this was their normal demeanor. Maybe it was just because I was a skinny kid at the time, and they didn’t want to be bothered with me. Certainly it was not true on the Southern. Their attitude was much more positive. I hope that this story was not too long or too boring for people in the group to read. Steve Ellis
On Mar 16, 2021, at 10:17 AM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Robert Hanson
In the pre-Southern Crescent days, when the Crescent (Nos. 37-38) ran via Montgomery and Mobile, the Southern's dining car crews were based in Atlanta, the West Point Route crews were based in Montgomery, and the L&N crews were based in Mobile.
I got this information from a file that I photocopied in the NS archives a number of years ago.
Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io Sent: Tue, Mar 16, 2021 10:46 am Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread.
The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges. At one time, maybe as late as the 1960s, Southern dining car crews were based in Cincinnati, Chattanooga, and Washington (and maybe some other places, like Asheville) in addition to Atlanta. I don’t know what their work cycles were; that info is probably in the SRHA archives somewhere. I’m not aware that any full crews were based in New Orleans, at least by the 1950s or 1960s.
During the post-Amtrak Southern Crescent era, I know of at least one steward, Steve Cosmos, who lived in Birmingham, but his crew base was Atlanta. He worked on one of the three long crews and had to deadhead or drive Birmingham-Atlanta to go on or off duty. Pre-Amtrak, Steve had been furloughed for years, but with the clustered retirements in the early-1970s, he was called back to work. I’m sure there were others like him who lived away from Atlanta but had to report there for duty.
—Bill
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Bill Schafer
I’m not as familiar with the coach and sleeper attendants. In the Southern Crescent era, most (but not all) were based in Atlanta. I think the coach porters may have worked on a divisional basis, but the sleeping car porters would have stayed with the car for the extent of its assignment.
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—Bill
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Steve Ellis
Were car attendants based in the same cities as dining car crews and did they have similar schedules?
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 10:51:58 AM EDT, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:
Thank you very much. I really appreciate the information, Bill. Steve Ellis
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 10:46:52 AM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:
This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges. At one time, maybe as late as the 1960s, Southern dining car crews were based in Cincinnati, Chattanooga, and Washington (and maybe some other places, like Asheville) in addition to Atlanta. I don’t know what their work cycles were; that info is probably in the SRHA archives somewhere. I’m not aware that any full crews were based in New Orleans, at least by the 1950s or 1960s.
During the post-Amtrak Southern Crescent era, I know of at least one steward, Steve Cosmos, who lived in Birmingham, but his crew base was Atlanta. He worked on one of the three long crews and had to deadhead or drive Birmingham-Atlanta to go on or off duty. Pre-Amtrak, Steve had been furloughed for years, but with the clustered retirements in the early-1970s, he was called back to work. I’m sure there were others like him who lived away from Atlanta but had to report there for duty.
—Bill
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Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles
Steve Ellis
Thank you very much. I really appreciate the information, Bill. Steve Ellis
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 10:46:52 AM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:
This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges. At one time, maybe as late as the 1960s, Southern dining car crews were based in Cincinnati, Chattanooga, and Washington (and maybe some other places, like Asheville) in addition to Atlanta. I don’t know what their work cycles were; that info is probably in the SRHA archives somewhere. I’m not aware that any full crews were based in New Orleans, at least by the 1950s or 1960s.
During the post-Amtrak Southern Crescent era, I know of at least one steward, Steve Cosmos, who lived in Birmingham, but his crew base was Atlanta. He worked on one of the three long crews and had to deadhead or drive Birmingham-Atlanta to go on or off duty. Pre-Amtrak, Steve had been furloughed for years, but with the clustered retirements in the early-1970s, he was called back to work. I’m sure there were others like him who lived away from Atlanta but had to report there for duty.
—Bill
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Dining Car Crew Cycles
Bill Schafer
This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread.
The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges. At one time, maybe as late as the 1960s, Southern dining car crews were based in Cincinnati, Chattanooga, and Washington (and maybe some other places, like Asheville) in addition to Atlanta. I don’t know what their work cycles were; that info is probably in the SRHA archives somewhere. I’m not aware that any full crews were based in New Orleans, at least by the 1950s or 1960s.
During the post-Amtrak Southern Crescent era, I know of at least one steward, Steve Cosmos, who lived in Birmingham, but his crew base was Atlanta. He worked on one of the three long crews and had to deadhead or drive Birmingham-Atlanta to go on or off duty. Pre-Amtrak, Steve had been furloughed for years, but with the clustered retirements in the early-1970s, he was called back to work. I’m sure there were others like him who lived away from Atlanta but had to report there for duty.
—Bill
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Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
Steve Ellis
This is wonderful detail, Bill. When I rode the train in the fall of 1970, I know that was going to New Orleans on Saturdays. I believe it went all the way to New Orleans seven days a week, didn’t it?
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Do you know if the crews were based in Atlanta in those days? Steve Ellis
On Mar 16, 2021, at 9:59 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:
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Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
Bill Schafer
In the years of the post-Amtrak Southern Crescent, the dining and lounge car crews were based in Atlanta. The train ran overnight, every night Atlanta-Washington, and tri-weekly Atlanta-New Orleans. As far as the dining cars were concerned, there were five regular crews that ran on the following cycle (the “crew numbers" are not official; just as a reference):
Crew 1, Crew 2, Crew 3 - one long cycle per week, which consisted of going on duty in Atlanta with the fresh dining car, leaving on train 1 for New Orleans. The crew overnighted in New Orleans, worked through Atlanta on train 2 the next day, arriving Washington the next morning, and after an all-day layover, worked back overnight on train 1 to Atlanta. They were off for the rest of the week until their cycle began on the same day of the following week.
Crew 4, Crew 5 - two short cycles per week. These crews worked two Atlanta-Washington turn-around trips per week, leaving Atlanta on train 2, arriving Washington the next morning, working south from Washington on train 1 that evening, and arriving the next morning in Atlanta.
There was also a dining car extra board where people could fill in as needed for vacation or sick day relief, or be added when heavier passenger loadings were expected.
Post-Amtrak, the tavern car only operated Atlanta-Washington, and I remember only two positions for that service, where the attendants made a turn-around trip every other day. There had to have been some provision for their relief somewhere along the line with an extra board attendant, but how it worked into the scheme escapes me at present. You could not put just anybody into that job - they had to have some experience keeping inventories and handling money, which was beyond the pay grade of a dining car waiter. IIRC, the position of the Southern Crescent’s lounge car attendant was a “waiter-in-charge”, which was the same position as the person in charge of a dinette-coach or a stripped down dining car with a two-man crew - a waiter-in-charge and a chef; no steward.
—Bill
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Re: Greensboro map was Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crews Sleeping on their Cars
Steve Ellis
Were the crews on the Southern Crescent based out of New Orleans or Washington, or both? On Mar 9, 2021, at 3:04 PM, Steve Ellis <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:
As I remember it, the attendants’ jackets did seem to look to be styled a little bit like a sports jacket or blazer, but without the lining or construction. They were also shorter, but I remember them having a button front and lapels. On Mar 9, 2021, at 2:44 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
When office car NS-8 arrived at TVRM, I was looking in the closets and discovered several what I’d call “attendants’ jackets, soiled but in good condition. Someday, I expect they will find a new use in a museum display? Ike PS We are still looking for new trucks for Southern OC-21 circa 1956 (when it was converted at Hayne Shop). If anyone know of any that might be available, let me know at archives@.... On Mar 9, 2021, at 2:19 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote: The white jacket was normal attire for coach attendants. Bob Grabarek -----Original Message-----
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Re: Southern Lantern Fuel
Bill Schafer
Fascinating tidbit, Scott - I never knew that. Thanks.
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Re: Southern Lantern Fuel
aramsay18
Wasn't whale oil also used in the early 1900's for lanterns? Andy Ramsay Berryville VA
On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 6:35 PM D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:
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Re: Southern Lantern Fuel
D. Scott Chatfield
Older lanterns burned animal oil, for several reasons. The important reason for us collectors is the older glass can not take the heat of kerosene fire. The demand for animal oil increased a great deal during the First World War, and the government asked the lantern makers to figure how to make their lanterns burn kerosene, which was becoming more plentiful by the day. Corning Glass developed the first globes that could withstand kerosene, but it needed a smaller frame. This drove the development of the "short globe" lanterns. So aside from the smell, kerosene might also break the globe. Unless the word KERO is cast into the globe do not burn kerosene in it. Scott Chatfield
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Re: Southern Lantern Fuel
Stephen Warner
While the roads used kerosene, use lamp oil. I guarantee that if you burn kerosene at home, your wife, kids, dogs and cats will kick you out of the house - it smells and belongs in a depot or caboose. Only problem with old lanterns is that there is kerosene residual that will smell half a century later, regardless of using newer lamp oil.
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