Date   

locked Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

Artist794 Workshop
 

Good-afternoon everyone,

My name is Chris Zygmunt, I am new to this group and join hoping someone my have ( or know someone/someplace else) information regarding an Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach. Bit of Backstory, I am a member of the Friends of the Valley Railroad. A volunteer organization associated with the tourist line, the Valley Railroad, better known as the Essex Steam Train & Riverboat. In 2021 our railroad is turning 50 years old and to help celebrate I have been researching all of our rolling stock and engines history in hopes of using that information to create a series of articles detailing the items life from creation to our line. 

Last year our line acquired 3 more coaches from the Age of Steam Roundhouse. One was a Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach with its current number being 3659. 

Does anyone know where I might be able to find information about this car? Things like who built it?, where it ran?, When it might have left the SR for Ohio?, Photos or drawings of the car?, etc.  Any information or leads would be greatly appreciated and thank you for taking the time to read this request.

Please feel free to reach me off group as well via my email: Artist794workshop@...


locked Second attempt at 42000 series box car assignments

George Eichelberger
 

Here is a smaller, cleaner version of the Sou 42000-42099 50’ box car assignment list. As part of a very large draft, it has duplicates and errors to be corrected. (Some “errors” are directly from the Southern Hayne Shop records.) To save space on the io group, this version will be deleted in a couple of weeks.

If anyone is particularly interested in Southern rolling stock, they are welcome to come to our archives work sessions and help with this, or any other project.

Ike


locked Anyone know C G Heflin?

Jim King
 

Many SOU boxcar pix on Fallen Flags have C G Heflin credit.  I don’t know the man so am wondering if anyone does?  I think he is/was located in northern Virginia.  If possible, it would be great to have access to original slides/negs to scan to hi-rez for archival purposes.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


locked Re: SouthernRailway Covered hoppers in kaolin clay service - 1964

George Eichelberger
 

I know I have seen lists of destinations for kaolin clay that were routed via the Southern (they virtually all originated on the Central of Georgia) but, of course, I cannot find them off hand. Here is a Google drive link to two short documents. The second covers routings off the Central that did not use the Southern not long after the ICC directed the Southern to take over the CofG.


They were part of the internal correspondence, including the Sandersville Railroad and kaolin shippers, as the Southern was trying to handle more of the traffic. Problem was, the kaolin industry was growing very quickly, the Central’s fleet of covered hoppers was old and inadequate and kaolin shippers were moving away from loading bags of product in box cars and into covered hoppers.

Southern ordered a large number of 4,000 cu ft aluminum covered hoppers from Magor. When the railroad asked for a larger capacity covered hopper, Magor developed what became the “Big John” car by essentially stretching that design. My intention was to kit bash one of the ExactRail Big Johns “back” to one of the earlier cars. Although I have a number of Big Johns on the (Asheville) layout, E-R did such a beautiful job on them (with many (!) Magor drawings from the SRHA archives), I just do not have the heart to cut one of them down.

Ike

As info to anyone interested in the Central of Georgia, the archives contain many CofG freight  car drawings and documents.



locked Re: Covered hoppers in kaolin clay service - 1964

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Ike wrote:

> References seem to be missing for tank cars used in clay slurry service, not used in the early 60s?

Clay slurry (in water) did not become common until the mid '70s, and when it did it was all carried in privately owned tank cars.  ACFX, GATX, NATX, UTLX, etc.  Supplying tank cars was not the railroads' problem.

Clay slurry in the form of ink was shipped in tank cars in the '60s.  The carrier was flammable, so these tanks can be spotted by their placards.

I know JM Huber's plant on the Southern's Brunswick line (at Huber, just SE of Macon) shipped ink.  Don't know about the other plants.

Scott Chatfield


locked Covered hoppers in kaolin clay service - 1964

George Eichelberger
 

The SRHA archives include many files on the shortage/purchase/rebuilding of 40’ box cars 1963-65. Many were needed as the Southern’s contribution to various on-line and off-line car pools and for Kaolin clay service. (The re-write of the SRHA  Southern 40’ box car book slows down every time I find important files on that subject.)

Because the Kaolin clay business originated mostly on the Central of Georgia, many CG files discuss the shortage of covered hoppers, also in ’64-’65 due to the rapid growth of Kaolin for coated paper and other industrial processes. That business made use of other road’s covered hoppers if some of the mileage was on those lines.

By early 1964, deliveries and reassignments of additional Southern covered hoppers increased the proportion of SRS cars used. Here is a 4-23-64 inventory of the covered hoppers used for clay service. Some owners are far from the middle Georgia kaolin mines but were in the routings to the paper and chemical plant destinations for the clay. (References seem to be missing for tank cars used in clay slurry service, not used in the early 60s?)

Ike





locked Re: SRHA wearables

Kevin Centers
 

All,

Just a reminder that this is the last week to order your SRHA swag in black. We’ll continue to carry the green items. So go out and order some of both for your summer wardrobe. 

Kevin


On Apr 2, 2021, at 12:34 PM, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote:


All,

SRHA recently partnered with Squadlocker to provide wearable items for its members. We currently offer hats, ladies and men’s polo shirts, and lightweight jackets. All are embroidered with the SRHA logo. The caps and polos can even be personalized at a marginally extra cost. Our company store can be found here:
You simply choose the items you want, along with the size, and place your order. Typically you will receive your order with 10-13 days. The quality is great and they items look very nice. 
BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE...
For the month of April ONLY, you can order our items in black or green. Trust me they both look great. And we’ve included an overnight/gym bag too. But remember the bag and black items will go away after April. So order yours today. Below are some photos of the items. 

Thanks,

Kevin Centers
Treasurer SRHA

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>

<image3.jpeg>
<image4.jpeg>


locked SOU 44T Photo Request

David Friedlander
 

Hi all,

I'm trying to work through a queue of projects and one is finishing up an article for a 44T water cooler stand I created.  Nothing crazy, and it was based off this photo:
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/switchers/sou1952a.html

I was trying to find Gerald Widemark, but unfortunately, it looks like the prolific CNW modeler/railfan passed away last April.  I'm contacting the CNWHS to see if perhaps they now own the rights to the photo, but if anyone else has the rights to a photo of a 44T with this version of water cooler stand, I'd be grateful for use of the photo in the article.

Attached is an image of my O-scale model based on a Williams by Bachmann 44-tonner.  I am pretty sure 1951 didn't have one, but I wanted to model this regardless as I thought it was neat.

Thanks,
David Friedlander



locked Fairfax Harrison's legacy

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Bill S wrote:

> Fairfax Harrison certainly didn’t/couldn’t adapt and it darn near bankrupted the railroad during the depression. 

Is this why I can't think of any facilities on the Southern named for him?  It seems all the other early presidents had a yard or something big named for them.  Did I miss something?


Scott Chatfield


locked Fw: [SouthernRailway] Southern box car preference, circa 1918

 

 
 
From: Edwin Locklin
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 2:51 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern box car preference, circa 1918
 
Ike,
 
I’ve certainly enjoyed reading all (or most) of the Southern Rwy’s historic letters and documents that you’ve posted.  Keep up the good work.
 
Ed Locklin at mp367.
 

 
From: George Eichelberger
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 12:23 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern box car preference, circa 1918
 
I mentioned in an earlier post that the Southern was not particularly interested in obtaining 50-Ton USRA box cars. Here (attached) is a 9-20-1918 memo to SR President Fairfax Harrison explaining why 30-T capy box cars are more suited to Southern’s territory and traffic base. Note that in 1918, “The South” was still an agrarian economy with not much heavy manufacturing. The memo is as much about the Southern’s business environment as it was about box car design.
 
Comments please! There is no reason to fill up the .io list if this kind of material is not of interest to many people.
 
I believe it IS a reason for people to donate both their cash and their time working on the SRHA archives material!
 
Ike
 
 
 


locked Questions for early 20th Century Southern Railway

A&Y Dave in MD
 

I am trying to understand a few things about the Southern Railway operations and corporate decision making from 1900-1924.  If anyone has easy access to evidence that can help me, I'd appreciate it.  If not, it will have to wait until I can visit the archives and do some research.

My questions:

  1. After reading R.E. Prince, I know that the Southern conducted a significant locomotive renumbering in 1903. I believe that helped organize the classes of locomotives acquired from all the predecessor roads, along with all those new locomotives built for the Southern from 1900-1903.  There appears to be a subsequent renumbering in 1907 and possibly another in 1916, but I don't know why.  Any information on why?
  2. According to Roland B. Eutsler in his history of the CF&YV published in The North Carolina Historical Review, the Southern operated the A&Y as part of its Danville Division from 1900 until 1908.  But according to Mr. Eutsler "A part of this time, from 1908 through 1916, the Atlantic and was operated by the Southern under a lease."   I lost my copies of the Southern legal histories and addenda in my house fire.  Does anyone have any information on this lease and why it was made when the A&Y stock was wholly owned by the Southern?
  3. After the USRA took over operations of US Railroads in 1918-1919, the A&Y was returned to independent operation. And in 1924 it went into receivership.  Was the A&Y operated as part of the Danville Division then, or was it now with the Winston-Salem division where it ended up decades later in 1950?
  4. It appears that the lease of Southern locomotives began as early 1917, but rentals occurred as early as 1912 (and I wonder given the statement of Mr. Eutsler above whether the leasing and rentals occurred as early as 1908.  Anyone know of evidence about how these wholly owned subsidiaries might be given lease or rental agreements in this time period and why?


Cannot hurt to ask!

Thanks,

Dave Bott



--

Sent from David Bott's desktop pc


locked SRHA wearables

Kevin Centers
 

All,

SRHA recently partnered with Squadlocker to provide wearable items for its members. We currently offer hats, ladies and men’s polo shirts, and lightweight jackets. All are embroidered with the SRHA logo. The caps and polos can even be personalized at a marginally extra cost. Our company store can be found here:
You simply choose the items you want, along with the size, and place your order. Typically you will receive your order with 10-13 days. The quality is great and they items look very nice. 
BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE...
For the month of April ONLY, you can order our items in black or green. Trust me they both look great. And we’ve included an overnight/gym bag too. But remember the bag and black items will go away after April. So order yours today. Below are some photos of the items. 

Thanks,

Kevin Centers
Treasurer SRHA




locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

bjarne@juno.com
 

The two times I rode #7, there weren't enough people on board to have that kind of worry -- no more than 3 or 4 of us plus the crew -- and only peanut butter and cheese crackers in the vending machine at a fairly high price - 50 cents or so IIRC.


locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Michael Young
 

The original Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970 included the following authorization for the Interstate Commerce Commission:
"SEC. 801 ADEQUACY OF SERVICE. The Commission is authorized to prescribe such regulations as it considers necessary to provide safe and adequate service, equipment, and facilities for intercity rail passenger service. Any person who violates a regulation issued under this section shall be subject to a civil penalty of not to exceed $500 for each violation. Each day a violation continues shall constitute a separate offense."
A 1976 amendment added a caveat regarding food service:
HOURS OF FOOD SERVICE SEC. 108. Section 801(a) of the Rail Passenger Service Act (45 U.S.C. 641(a)) is amended by inserting immediately after the first sentence thereof the following new sentence: "No regulation issued by the Commission under this section shall require the Corporation or any railroad providing intercity rail passenger service to provide food service other than during customary dining hours.".  
The ICC's Adequacy of Service Rules required railroads to post standard notices on the entrance doors of all passenger equipment advising passengers of their right to request the infamous "complaint form" from conductors. These notices were identical on Southern and Amtrak, except for their corporate logos and signatures of the respective CEOs.
I'll try to find a copy of the complete ICC Adequacy of Service standards.
Mike Young


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Mar 16, 2021 6:11 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Southern wanted out too; it just was sneakier about it. Before Amtrak, box meals were often offered after dining cars were removed from Southern trains. This was a good news/bad news situation - the good news was that the box meals were way cheaper than dining car prices (but without the ambience) and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. The bad news was that the locations where box meals were available were not always convenient and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. 

In 1974, Southern operated eight regularly scheduled passenger trains: 1/2 Southern Crescent; 3/4 Asheville Special; 5/6 Piedmont and 7/8 unnamed remnant of the Birmingham Special between Washington-Lynchburg - the single FP7 and heavyweight coach were sandwiched between heavy-duty road power and a lot of freight cars at Alexandria. 

Food service on these trains: we have discussed 1/2; I don’t know how Southern got away with no food service on 3/4, but apparently they did. 5/6 had a coach-lounge that served light meals and beverages Washington-Atlanta. 7/8’s coach was equipped with a vending machine. “Chips ’n’ Snacks” only; for moisture, there was a water fountain.

Going from memory here, the ICC got fed up with complaints about the quality of railroad service somewhere around 1969 or so. The target was the Southern Pacific, which had been overzealous in discouraging passengers, especially on the LA-New Orleans Sunset, which at the time ran daily but featured only coaches and an automat car. To get the ICC off its back, the SP agreed to restore dining car and sleeping car service to the Sunset if the ICC would let them reduce frequency to tri-weekly. The ICC agreed. Southern and SP started operating a through New York-Los Angeles sleeper via New Orleans - the November 20, 1970 timetable was the first to advertise it - which continued for a few years into the Amtrak era.

The ICC food service dictum was codified and applied to all U.S. railroads, and I think these “creature comfort” regs carried over into the Amtrak era. For trains that didn’t run overnight, I think there was a requirement for food service if the train exceeded a certain distance in its route. Atlanta-Birmingham = 166 miles; Asheville-Salisbury = 141 miles; Washington-Lynchburg = 173 miles. Something tells me that if the train’s journey exceeded 150 miles, food service was required. That would explain 3/4 without food. Can anyone verify this? 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 17:29, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Whatever they did, it would be a lot better than the food service on the Southern  Pacific toward the end of its passenger train service. I heard that they just provided vending machines on the café car, and half of the time they didn’t work. Unlike the Southern, Southern Pacific supposedly really wanted to get out of passenger service starting about the late 1960s.


On Mar 16, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 




locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Kevin Centers
 

Wouldn’t it have been lovely to be seated next to the vending machine?  People stumbling over you to get their bag of chips, asking for change, etc.  I can only imagine. 

On Mar 16, 2021, at 6:11 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

 Southern wanted out too; it just was sneakier about it. Before Amtrak, box meals were often offered after dining cars were removed from Southern trains. This was a good news/bad news situation - the good news was that the box meals were way cheaper than dining car prices (but without the ambience) and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. The bad news was that the locations where box meals were available were not always convenient and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. 

In 1974, Southern operated eight regularly scheduled passenger trains: 1/2 Southern Crescent; 3/4 Asheville Special; 5/6 Piedmont and 7/8 unnamed remnant of the Birmingham Special between Washington-Lynchburg - the single FP7 and heavyweight coach were sandwiched between heavy-duty road power and a lot of freight cars at Alexandria. 

Food service on these trains: we have discussed 1/2; I don’t know how Southern got away with no food service on 3/4, but apparently they did. 5/6 had a coach-lounge that served light meals and beverages Washington-Atlanta. 7/8’s coach was equipped with a vending machine. “Chips ’n’ Snacks” only; for moisture, there was a water fountain.
<SOU Trains 7-8 (WAS-Lynchburg) discontinuance pix (1975) - 1.jpeg>

Going from memory here, the ICC got fed up with complaints about the quality of railroad service somewhere around 1969 or so. The target was the Southern Pacific, which had been overzealous in discouraging passengers, especially on the LA-New Orleans Sunset, which at the time ran daily but featured only coaches and an automat car. To get the ICC off its back, the SP agreed to restore dining car and sleeping car service to the Sunset if the ICC would let them reduce frequency to tri-weekly. The ICC agreed. Southern and SP started operating a through New York-Los Angeles sleeper via New Orleans - the November 20, 1970 timetable was the first to advertise it - which continued for a few years into the Amtrak era.

The ICC food service dictum was codified and applied to all U.S. railroads, and I think these “creature comfort” regs carried over into the Amtrak era. For trains that didn’t run overnight, I think there was a requirement for food service if the train exceeded a certain distance in its route. Atlanta-Birmingham = 166 miles; Asheville-Salisbury = 141 miles; Washington-Lynchburg = 173 miles. Something tells me that if the train’s journey exceeded 150 miles, food service was required. That would explain 3/4 without food. Can anyone verify this? 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 17:29, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Whatever they did, it would be a lot better than the food service on the Southern  Pacific toward the end of its passenger train service. I heard that they just provided vending machines on the café car, and half of the time they didn’t work. Unlike the Southern, Southern Pacific supposedly really wanted to get out of passenger service starting about the late 1960s.


On Mar 16, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 




locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Bill Schafer
 

Southern wanted out too; it just was sneakier about it. Before Amtrak, box meals were often offered after dining cars were removed from Southern trains. This was a good news/bad news situation - the good news was that the box meals were way cheaper than dining car prices (but without the ambience) and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. The bad news was that the locations where box meals were available were not always convenient and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. 

In 1974, Southern operated eight regularly scheduled passenger trains: 1/2 Southern Crescent; 3/4 Asheville Special; 5/6 Piedmont and 7/8 unnamed remnant of the Birmingham Special between Washington-Lynchburg - the single FP7 and heavyweight coach were sandwiched between heavy-duty road power and a lot of freight cars at Alexandria. 

Food service on these trains: we have discussed 1/2; I don’t know how Southern got away with no food service on 3/4, but apparently they did. 5/6 had a coach-lounge that served light meals and beverages Washington-Atlanta. 7/8’s coach was equipped with a vending machine. “Chips ’n’ Snacks” only; for moisture, there was a water fountain.

Going from memory here, the ICC got fed up with complaints about the quality of railroad service somewhere around 1969 or so. The target was the Southern Pacific, which had been overzealous in discouraging passengers, especially on the LA-New Orleans Sunset, which at the time ran daily but featured only coaches and an automat car. To get the ICC off its back, the SP agreed to restore dining car and sleeping car service to the Sunset if the ICC would let them reduce frequency to tri-weekly. The ICC agreed. Southern and SP started operating a through New York-Los Angeles sleeper via New Orleans - the November 20, 1970 timetable was the first to advertise it - which continued for a few years into the Amtrak era.

The ICC food service dictum was codified and applied to all U.S. railroads, and I think these “creature comfort” regs carried over into the Amtrak era. For trains that didn’t run overnight, I think there was a requirement for food service if the train exceeded a certain distance in its route. Atlanta-Birmingham = 166 miles; Asheville-Salisbury = 141 miles; Washington-Lynchburg = 173 miles. Something tells me that if the train’s journey exceeded 150 miles, food service was required. That would explain 3/4 without food. Can anyone verify this? 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 17:29, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Whatever they did, it would be a lot better than the food service on the Southern  Pacific toward the end of its passenger train service. I heard that they just provided vending machines on the café car, and half of the time they didn’t work. Unlike the Southern, Southern Pacific supposedly really wanted to get out of passenger service starting about the late 1960s.


On Mar 16, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 




locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Steve Ellis
 

Whatever they did, it would be a lot better than the food service on the Southern  Pacific toward the end of its passenger train service. I heard that they just provided vending machines on the café car, and half of the time they didn’t work. Unlike the Southern, Southern Pacific supposedly really wanted to get out of passenger service starting about the late 1960s.


On Mar 16, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 



locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Steve Ellis
 

I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 



locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
 

Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 



locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Bill Schafer
 

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 


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