Date   

locked Re: ICC valuation

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Ike,

Thanks for sharing.  Not everyone finds this kind of info interesting, but there are a few of us.  You'll have to sound out the RPM organizers to see what they think.  Heck people thanked me for sharing after I droned on for an hour about the A&Y.  You just have to find the right audience I guess. ;-)  The RPM meet has quite a few interested in the early 20th century freight cars and more than a few interested in the Southern.

Dave

Friday, April 2, 2021, 10:13:04 AM, you wrote:

> It’s important to understand there are multiple ICC reports than can provide quite detailed history on a railroad’s rolling stock and fixed plant. I’ve uploaded four examples* to Google Drive (the uploaded page sequence is different) at:

> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EFXR6UNGkJQDejfVXOaxvny5Sqv0IFJm?usp=sharing

> Item 1 Period from 1916-7-1 to 27-12-3, Southern Railway Account 53, Freight Cars.
> ICC Form 1742 shows the initial inventory as prepared from the Date of the ICC Valuation Order (VO) until the initial valuations was to have been completed 12-31-27. Even then, the work was not done. The 1742s were sent to the ICC to be approved. There was a lot of back-and-forth between the roads and the ICC to get to final valuations. The goal of the exercise was to establish a railroad cost basis to establish rates, ROI, etc, so potentially inflated values would skew later rate calculations. There were apparently court cases and the ICC did not finalize and accept the Southern valuations until about 1932.

> Sheet 13 includes a page of “plain” box cars built in 1915.
> The range of dates showing cars destroyed and “A&Bs” (Additions and Betterments) show changes from the time of Valuation Order 3 in 1916 and when the final report had to be submitted in 1927. The car series road numbers, descriptions, capy., car builder and cost are usually included. Individual car numbers may/may not be broken out but cars (in this example) that were destroyed before 1927 are excluded from the 1-1-1928 inventory at the bottom of the sheet. A&Bs are typically do not show individual car numbers.

> The last column is complicated but potentially very useful. Each group of similar (but not necessarily from the same carbuilder or order) were assigned either a “VO3” or “ER” (Engineering Report) Group number. That number was used to identify cars from the group through out their service lives.

> Sheet 7 (1 of 2 pages) covers the same valuation study period for a different group of cars that had valuations changed by A&Bs but many were destroyed before 1927. Note at the bottom, the number of cars from this group that were “Destroyed”, “Renewed” or “Transferred” are shown. “Renewed” may (!) refer to a complete rebuild but in many cases it refers to the application of a steel underframe (SUF) or new roof. Although individual car numbers may/may not be shown, subsequent change forms (following sheets) can give a picture of the entire series.

> Sheet 37 is another example page with many A&Bs shown. “Converted” refers to a car that was changed to another ICC Account code. That shows as a double entry in the valuations, first as it left its original account (53 is revenue freight cars) and then as it was eneted in the new account, Account 57 is MoW equipment for example. Multiple changes were not uncommon.

> GS&F Sheet 1 shows motor vehicles but it is a good example of changes were reflected in the valuations over the years. It is dated June 30, 1962. Updates were to be submitted on every June 30 and December 31. The initial, VO3, or later additions (shown on the change forms) then subsequent updates have to be reviewed to see a car/groups' entire history.

> Note: I’ll admit this material only an intro and “dry as a bone” to explain but understood, and taken in their entirety, the ICC Valuation records are among the best information available. The copies in the SRHA archives were kept by the Southern with the originals sent to the ICC. All (most?) of them for every railroad reside in a warehouse in MD and can be reviewed.

> Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??

> Ike





>





--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: ICC valuation

George Eichelberger
 

It’s important to understand there are multiple ICC reports than can provide quite detailed history on a railroad’s rolling stock and fixed plant. I’ve uploaded four examples* to Google Drive (the uploaded page sequence is different) at:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EFXR6UNGkJQDejfVXOaxvny5Sqv0IFJm?usp=sharing

Item 1 Period from 1916-7-1 to 27-12-3, Southern Railway Account 53, Freight Cars.
ICC Form 1742 shows the initial inventory as prepared from the Date of the ICC Valuation Order (VO) until the initial valuations was to have been completed 12-31-27. Even then, the work was not done. The 1742s were sent to the ICC to be approved. There was a lot of back-and-forth between the roads and the ICC to get to final valuations. The goal of the exercise was to establish a railroad cost basis to establish rates, ROI, etc, so potentially inflated values would skew later rate calculations. There were apparently court cases and the ICC did not finalize and accept the Southern valuations until about 1932.

Sheet 13 includes a page of “plain” box cars built in 1915.
The range of dates showing cars destroyed and “A&Bs” (Additions and Betterments) show changes from the time of Valuation Order 3 in 1916 and when the final report had to be submitted in 1927. The car series road numbers, descriptions, capy., car builder and cost are usually included. Individual car numbers may/may not be broken out but cars (in this example) that were destroyed before 1927 are excluded from the 1-1-1928 inventory at the bottom of the sheet. A&Bs are typically do not show individual car numbers.

The last column is complicated but potentially very useful. Each group of similar (but not necessarily from the same carbuilder or order) were assigned either a “VO3” or “ER” (Engineering Report) Group number. That number was used to identify cars from the group through out their service lives.

Sheet 7 (1 of 2 pages) covers the same valuation study period for a different group of cars that had valuations changed by A&Bs but many were destroyed before 1927. Note at the bottom, the number of cars from this group that were “Destroyed”, “Renewed” or “Transferred” are shown. “Renewed” may (!) refer to a complete rebuild but in many cases it refers to the application of a steel underframe (SUF) or new roof. Although individual car numbers may/may not be shown, subsequent change forms (following sheets) can give a picture of the entire series.

Sheet 37 is another example page with many A&Bs shown. “Converted” refers to a car that was changed to another ICC Account code. That shows as a double entry in the valuations, first as it left its original account (53 is revenue freight cars) and then as it was eneted in the new account, Account 57 is MoW equipment for example. Multiple changes were not uncommon.

GS&F Sheet 1 shows motor vehicles but it is a good example of changes were reflected in the valuations over the years. It is dated June 30, 1962. Updates were to be submitted on every June 30 and December 31. The initial, VO3, or later additions (shown on the change forms) then subsequent updates have to be reviewed to see a car/groups' entire history.

Note: I’ll admit this material only an intro and “dry as a bone” to explain but understood, and taken in their entirety, the ICC Valuation records are among the best information available. The copies in the SRHA archives were kept by the Southern with the originals sent to the ICC. All (most?) of them for every railroad reside in a warehouse in MD and can be reviewed.

Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??

Ike


locked Re: Streamline Passenger Trucks

Michael Cathey
 

Allen,   I believe Southern used 41N trucks. Still looking for documentation.     Mike Cathey    Orange, Va.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Allen Cain
Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2021 9:20 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Streamline Passenger Trucks

 

What make and model of trucks were used on Southern Streamline passenger cars in the 50s?

 

Thanks 

 

Allen Cain


--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale

 


locked Streamline Passenger Trucks

Allen Cain
 

What make and model of trucks were used on Southern Streamline passenger cars in the 50s?

Thanks 

Allen Cain

--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale


locked Re: Taxed properties on the railroad

bjarne@juno.com
 

The answer depends on the state's valuation rules. Real estate is typically assessed and taxed pursuant to state law -- so you need to look at the laws, and the lawsuits over those laws, in the particular state that you are interested in. Many railroads had departments devoted to managing their tax obligations across the states that they served.


locked Re: Taxed properties on the railroad

A&Y Dave in MD
 

I would suspect there might be different taxes, including property tax, corporate income tax, local taxes, etc. I would bet differences depend upon whether there were laws, charters, or agreements forgiving taxes to entice construction in that area, how deductions can be worked, what era you are talking about, etc., etc., etc.  Aren’t the variables and complexity why there are scores of financial lawyers on the payroll? If it were easy to figure, they wouldn’t have jobs. Good question but hard to answer.

Dave Bott


On Mar 31, 2021, at 3:22 PM, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:


Question:

When a section of railroad is either unused or out of service (i.e. - Railbanked), are the taxes on the property of the railroad the same as when it is in service and deriving income and specifically taxes for services rendered along its road and if so at what rate/percentage difference?

Thank you.

Bob Cohen


locked Re: Taxed properties on the railroad

Bill Schafer
 

I don’t know. I assume that if the RR was paying taxes on the line when it was in service, it would pay taxes on it if it remained in place even if unused. Just my guess.

On Mar 31, 2021, at 15:22, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Question:

When a section of railroad is either unused or out of service (i.e. - Railbanked), are the taxes on the property of the railroad the same as when it is in service and deriving income and specifically taxes for services rendered along its road and if so at what rate/percentage difference?

Thank you.

Bob Cohen


locked Taxed properties on the railroad

Cohen Bob
 

Question:

When a section of railroad is either unused or out of service (i.e. - Railbanked), are the taxes on the property of the railroad the same as when it is in service and deriving income and specifically taxes for services rendered along its road and if so at what rate/percentage difference?

Thank you.

Bob Cohen


locked 3-11-47 SR Passenger Dept Memo

George Eichelberger
 

The SRHA Archives contain many items that discuss changes in passenger train schedules, stops and consists. There is a great amount of information available but researching and organizing it is a major project. When we can begin archives work sessions again and can scan more of the Presidents' Files and Hayne Shop passenger car data, we can include more on Southern's passenger services in TIES.

The Passenger Traffic Department issued Bulletins and Press Releases for early every major timetable or train changes. Here is an example from March, 1947. It is somewhat unusual because mail and express trains were not included in them very often. Train 30 included just one passenger and baggage (P&B) car. Most riders were likely dead-head employees.

Ike


locked Could JC Paschal contact me if he is on this list

O Fenton Wells
 

JC if you are on this list could you email me at <srrfan1401@...>
thanks
Fenton


locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

bjarne@juno.com
 

The two times I rode #7, there weren't enough people on board to have that kind of worry -- no more than 3 or 4 of us plus the crew -- and only peanut butter and cheese crackers in the vending machine at a fairly high price - 50 cents or so IIRC.


locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Michael Young
 

The original Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970 included the following authorization for the Interstate Commerce Commission:
"SEC. 801 ADEQUACY OF SERVICE. The Commission is authorized to prescribe such regulations as it considers necessary to provide safe and adequate service, equipment, and facilities for intercity rail passenger service. Any person who violates a regulation issued under this section shall be subject to a civil penalty of not to exceed $500 for each violation. Each day a violation continues shall constitute a separate offense."
A 1976 amendment added a caveat regarding food service:
HOURS OF FOOD SERVICE SEC. 108. Section 801(a) of the Rail Passenger Service Act (45 U.S.C. 641(a)) is amended by inserting immediately after the first sentence thereof the following new sentence: "No regulation issued by the Commission under this section shall require the Corporation or any railroad providing intercity rail passenger service to provide food service other than during customary dining hours.".  
The ICC's Adequacy of Service Rules required railroads to post standard notices on the entrance doors of all passenger equipment advising passengers of their right to request the infamous "complaint form" from conductors. These notices were identical on Southern and Amtrak, except for their corporate logos and signatures of the respective CEOs.
I'll try to find a copy of the complete ICC Adequacy of Service standards.
Mike Young


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Mar 16, 2021 6:11 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Southern wanted out too; it just was sneakier about it. Before Amtrak, box meals were often offered after dining cars were removed from Southern trains. This was a good news/bad news situation - the good news was that the box meals were way cheaper than dining car prices (but without the ambience) and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. The bad news was that the locations where box meals were available were not always convenient and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. 

In 1974, Southern operated eight regularly scheduled passenger trains: 1/2 Southern Crescent; 3/4 Asheville Special; 5/6 Piedmont and 7/8 unnamed remnant of the Birmingham Special between Washington-Lynchburg - the single FP7 and heavyweight coach were sandwiched between heavy-duty road power and a lot of freight cars at Alexandria. 

Food service on these trains: we have discussed 1/2; I don’t know how Southern got away with no food service on 3/4, but apparently they did. 5/6 had a coach-lounge that served light meals and beverages Washington-Atlanta. 7/8’s coach was equipped with a vending machine. “Chips ’n’ Snacks” only; for moisture, there was a water fountain.

Going from memory here, the ICC got fed up with complaints about the quality of railroad service somewhere around 1969 or so. The target was the Southern Pacific, which had been overzealous in discouraging passengers, especially on the LA-New Orleans Sunset, which at the time ran daily but featured only coaches and an automat car. To get the ICC off its back, the SP agreed to restore dining car and sleeping car service to the Sunset if the ICC would let them reduce frequency to tri-weekly. The ICC agreed. Southern and SP started operating a through New York-Los Angeles sleeper via New Orleans - the November 20, 1970 timetable was the first to advertise it - which continued for a few years into the Amtrak era.

The ICC food service dictum was codified and applied to all U.S. railroads, and I think these “creature comfort” regs carried over into the Amtrak era. For trains that didn’t run overnight, I think there was a requirement for food service if the train exceeded a certain distance in its route. Atlanta-Birmingham = 166 miles; Asheville-Salisbury = 141 miles; Washington-Lynchburg = 173 miles. Something tells me that if the train’s journey exceeded 150 miles, food service was required. That would explain 3/4 without food. Can anyone verify this? 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 17:29, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Whatever they did, it would be a lot better than the food service on the Southern  Pacific toward the end of its passenger train service. I heard that they just provided vending machines on the café car, and half of the time they didn’t work. Unlike the Southern, Southern Pacific supposedly really wanted to get out of passenger service starting about the late 1960s.


On Mar 16, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 




locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Kevin Centers
 

Wouldn’t it have been lovely to be seated next to the vending machine?  People stumbling over you to get their bag of chips, asking for change, etc.  I can only imagine. 

On Mar 16, 2021, at 6:11 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

 Southern wanted out too; it just was sneakier about it. Before Amtrak, box meals were often offered after dining cars were removed from Southern trains. This was a good news/bad news situation - the good news was that the box meals were way cheaper than dining car prices (but without the ambience) and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. The bad news was that the locations where box meals were available were not always convenient and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. 

In 1974, Southern operated eight regularly scheduled passenger trains: 1/2 Southern Crescent; 3/4 Asheville Special; 5/6 Piedmont and 7/8 unnamed remnant of the Birmingham Special between Washington-Lynchburg - the single FP7 and heavyweight coach were sandwiched between heavy-duty road power and a lot of freight cars at Alexandria. 

Food service on these trains: we have discussed 1/2; I don’t know how Southern got away with no food service on 3/4, but apparently they did. 5/6 had a coach-lounge that served light meals and beverages Washington-Atlanta. 7/8’s coach was equipped with a vending machine. “Chips ’n’ Snacks” only; for moisture, there was a water fountain.
<SOU Trains 7-8 (WAS-Lynchburg) discontinuance pix (1975) - 1.jpeg>

Going from memory here, the ICC got fed up with complaints about the quality of railroad service somewhere around 1969 or so. The target was the Southern Pacific, which had been overzealous in discouraging passengers, especially on the LA-New Orleans Sunset, which at the time ran daily but featured only coaches and an automat car. To get the ICC off its back, the SP agreed to restore dining car and sleeping car service to the Sunset if the ICC would let them reduce frequency to tri-weekly. The ICC agreed. Southern and SP started operating a through New York-Los Angeles sleeper via New Orleans - the November 20, 1970 timetable was the first to advertise it - which continued for a few years into the Amtrak era.

The ICC food service dictum was codified and applied to all U.S. railroads, and I think these “creature comfort” regs carried over into the Amtrak era. For trains that didn’t run overnight, I think there was a requirement for food service if the train exceeded a certain distance in its route. Atlanta-Birmingham = 166 miles; Asheville-Salisbury = 141 miles; Washington-Lynchburg = 173 miles. Something tells me that if the train’s journey exceeded 150 miles, food service was required. That would explain 3/4 without food. Can anyone verify this? 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 17:29, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Whatever they did, it would be a lot better than the food service on the Southern  Pacific toward the end of its passenger train service. I heard that they just provided vending machines on the café car, and half of the time they didn’t work. Unlike the Southern, Southern Pacific supposedly really wanted to get out of passenger service starting about the late 1960s.


On Mar 16, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 




locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Bill Schafer
 

Southern wanted out too; it just was sneakier about it. Before Amtrak, box meals were often offered after dining cars were removed from Southern trains. This was a good news/bad news situation - the good news was that the box meals were way cheaper than dining car prices (but without the ambience) and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. The bad news was that the locations where box meals were available were not always convenient and the food was usually good ole Southern cooking. 

In 1974, Southern operated eight regularly scheduled passenger trains: 1/2 Southern Crescent; 3/4 Asheville Special; 5/6 Piedmont and 7/8 unnamed remnant of the Birmingham Special between Washington-Lynchburg - the single FP7 and heavyweight coach were sandwiched between heavy-duty road power and a lot of freight cars at Alexandria. 

Food service on these trains: we have discussed 1/2; I don’t know how Southern got away with no food service on 3/4, but apparently they did. 5/6 had a coach-lounge that served light meals and beverages Washington-Atlanta. 7/8’s coach was equipped with a vending machine. “Chips ’n’ Snacks” only; for moisture, there was a water fountain.

Going from memory here, the ICC got fed up with complaints about the quality of railroad service somewhere around 1969 or so. The target was the Southern Pacific, which had been overzealous in discouraging passengers, especially on the LA-New Orleans Sunset, which at the time ran daily but featured only coaches and an automat car. To get the ICC off its back, the SP agreed to restore dining car and sleeping car service to the Sunset if the ICC would let them reduce frequency to tri-weekly. The ICC agreed. Southern and SP started operating a through New York-Los Angeles sleeper via New Orleans - the November 20, 1970 timetable was the first to advertise it - which continued for a few years into the Amtrak era.

The ICC food service dictum was codified and applied to all U.S. railroads, and I think these “creature comfort” regs carried over into the Amtrak era. For trains that didn’t run overnight, I think there was a requirement for food service if the train exceeded a certain distance in its route. Atlanta-Birmingham = 166 miles; Asheville-Salisbury = 141 miles; Washington-Lynchburg = 173 miles. Something tells me that if the train’s journey exceeded 150 miles, food service was required. That would explain 3/4 without food. Can anyone verify this? 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 17:29, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

Whatever they did, it would be a lot better than the food service on the Southern  Pacific toward the end of its passenger train service. I heard that they just provided vending machines on the café car, and half of the time they didn’t work. Unlike the Southern, Southern Pacific supposedly really wanted to get out of passenger service starting about the late 1960s.


On Mar 16, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 




locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Steve Ellis
 

Whatever they did, it would be a lot better than the food service on the Southern  Pacific toward the end of its passenger train service. I heard that they just provided vending machines on the café car, and half of the time they didn’t work. Unlike the Southern, Southern Pacific supposedly really wanted to get out of passenger service starting about the late 1960s.


On Mar 16, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:


I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 



locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Steve Ellis
 

I thought that I saw an advertisement somewhere for the Southern when they talked about bringing in a box to lunch for everyone of fried chicken. I forget which stop it was.

Did I imagine it, or was it some possibly some other railroad?


Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 



locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
 

Yes, I think you are right about Southern's being forced to provide food service.  My recollection is that the Interstate Commerce Commission decided to enforce its rule requiring food service on passenger trains and that this was the Southern's response.  This must have been a targeted enforcement, or perhaps the rule applied to trains traveling more than a certain distance since 3, 4,7 and 8 offered no food service.  950-series cars were used to provide food service on 5 and 6.

I don't know how many coach-lounges were in service in 1974, but is seems there weren't quite enough to cover all Atlanta-Birmingham trips on 1 and 2.  Another car was required for the fourth round trip.  I did some checking ahead of time to be sure I could ride a "Crescent" car.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 4:00 PM
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 



locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Bill Schafer
 

Good recall, Bob. My date was based on the timetable date. Sounds like Southern added food service before May 1974, but maybe not much before - I have a feeling they tried to get by with no food service for a while and someone called them on it. In fact, I’d like to know why the Crescent-series car was used at all. Seems to me that one of the 950-series cars would have been more appropriate. 

—Bill

On Mar 16, 2021, at 15:45, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Schafer 
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM 
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io 
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles 

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 



locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
 

The starting date of the operation of what Southern termed a "Bar Food Car" between Atlanta and Birmingham on the four days per week that trains 1 and 2 terminated and originated in Birmingham deserves a little research.  I rode train 1 from Atlanta to Birmingham on March 23, 1974, and the food car was the "Crescent Harbor."  (By virtue of my employee pass, I occupied the master room.)  I returned to Atlanta on the same day, and the bar food car was coach-lounge 950.  This car was detached at Atlanta.  My recollection is that a "Crescent" series car was used for one round trip per week on the Birmingham days while a 950-series coach lounge was used for three.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer
Sent: Mar 16, 2021 10:46 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread.

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 


locked Re: Dining Car Crew Cycles

Michael Young
 

At the time of the Amtrak takeover, Southern had what was called "step on-step off" agreements with the union, whereby some on-board service jobs were able to "swap out" employees at certain intermediate stations.  I used to have copies of correspondence regarding them, but they're long gone now.  I seem to recall several jobs turned at Salisbury, and maybe one or two at Greensboro.  Amtrak was adamant that such arrangements were not permitted under their labor agreement, and they would not continue them.  The affected employees would have to report at either the Atlanta or Washington Crew Base to begin their runs, and if they did not relocate they would be responsible for getting there on their own time.
Mike Young
    

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Mar 16, 2021 12:32 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

Southern Railway’s trains 47/48, the Southerner, became trains 1/2, the Southern Crescent, in the February 1970 timetable. In October 1970, you were riding the Southern Crescent.

On Mar 16, 2021, at 12:03, Steve Ellis via groups.io <meadowbrookdairy@...> wrote:

I think that October 1970 was not pre-Southern Crescent, was it? I am positive that the train went through Birmingham at that time. I remember looking at the hat checks above peoples seats and trying to figure out the abbreviations.


Having just arrived from the Maritime provinces in Canada I didn’t know the country as well as I wanted to. I thought that this train terminated in Atlanta but I could see that it was not going to do so.


I remember figuring out the Birmingham abbreviation whatever it was, and then being perplexed over the “NO” written on the hat checks. There seemed  to be a lot of those.  Then I realized where it was, and I was wishing that I had bought a ticket there instead! I wanted to go farther.

Steve Ellis


On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:45 AM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


In the pre-Southern Crescent days, when the Crescent (Nos. 37-38) ran via Montgomery and Mobile, the Southern's dining car crews were based in Atlanta, the West Point Route crews were based in Montgomery, and the L&N crews were based in Mobile.

I got this information from a file that I photocopied in the NS archives a number of years ago.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Mar 16, 2021 10:46 am
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Dining Car Crew Cycles

This is in reply to Steve Ellis's follow-up question about dining car crew bases other than Atlanta. I'm starting a new thread. 

The November 20, 1970 timetable is the first that shows the
 Southern Crescent cut back to tri-weekly between Birmingham and New Orleans, so your trip on a daily Southern Crescent to New Orleans would have been one of the last (as opposed to a tri-weekly Southern Crescent). The daily service Atlanta-Bham continued into the Amtrak era, when it went to tri-weekly effective with the June 1, 1975 timetable. In the post-Amtrak period, the dining car didn’t operate beyond Atlanta; in fact, there was no food service Atlanta-Bham until May 1974, when SOU started offering food/beverage service in a “bar food car”, which photographic evidence suggests was one of the Crescent series sleeper-tavern-lounges.  
 
At one time, maybe as late as the 1960s, Southern dining car crews were based in Cincinnati, Chattanooga, and Washington (and maybe some other places, like Asheville) in addition to Atlanta. I don’t know what their work cycles were; that info is probably in the SRHA archives somewhere. I’m not aware that any full crews were based in New Orleans, at least by the 1950s or 1960s. 
 
During the post-Amtrak Southern Crescent era, I know of at least one steward, Steve Cosmos, who lived in Birmingham, but his crew base was Atlanta. He worked on one of the three long crews and had to deadhead or drive Birmingham-Atlanta to go on or off duty. Pre-Amtrak, Steve had been furloughed for years, but with the clustered retirements in the early-1970s, he was called back to work. I’m sure there were others like him who lived away from Atlanta but had to report there for duty.
 
—Bill
 

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