Date   

locked Re: Drawing and Maps in the SRHA Archives

Jim Thurston
 

Ike:

Downloaded fine
Came thru as 198 MB tiff
Opens fine in PS

Jim Thurston


From: "Ike Eichelberger" <geichelberger@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 4, 2021 1:39:53 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Drawing and Maps in the SRHA Archives

Would someone please tell me of they succeeded in downloading the Cincy drawing in the Google Drive link?

You will see a message saying it is too large for Google Drive to display a view but if you click on the download icon (looks like a tray with a down arrow just above)) it will send you the entire .tiff file. You can open and expand it locally. (It may take a while to download depending on your Internet speed.)

Ike


locked Re: Drawing and Maps in the SRHA Archives

George Eichelberger
 

All:

Rick Bell does most of our large (!) scanning on our 42" machine. Large drawings, sometime is very poor condition, take a lot of work so we always have blueprints and drawings unscanned in files where most of the regular letter size docs have been scanned. The largest scan we have ever made was a linen of John Sevier yard that was 26 feet long! Needless to say, big drawings require multiple people.

If anyone has blueprints or any large drawing, they can bring it to an archives work session to be scanned...if time permits. If it is a Southern, L&N or Central of Georgia drawing and you want to put it in the archives, you are welcome to take a digital version. If you just want to make a scan but not donate the drawing, you'll need to leave a digital version. If you do not want to leave the original(s) but want to scan more than a small number, you need to be a SRHA member and/or make a cash donation to the archives.


locked Re: Drawing and Maps in the SRHA Archives

rwbrv4
 

I got it just fine.  Looks good
  Wonder who scanned it?  Seems familiar.
Rick Bell




On Sunday, April 4, 2021 George Eichelberger <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> wrote:

Would someone please tell me of they succeeded in downloading the Cincy drawing in the Google Drive link?

You will see a message saying it is too large for Google Drive to display a view but if you click on the download icon (looks like a tray with a down arrow just above)) it will send you the entire .tiff file. You can open and expand it locally. (It may take a while to download depending on your Internet speed.)

Ike


locked Re: Drawing and Maps in the SRHA Archives

George Eichelberger
 

Would someone please tell me of they succeeded in downloading the Cincy drawing in the Google Drive link?

You will see a message saying it is too large for Google Drive to display a view but if you click on the download icon (looks like a tray with a down arrow just above)) it will send you the entire .tiff file. You can open and expand it locally. (It may take a while to download depending on your Internet speed.)

Ike


locked Drawing and Maps in the SRHA Archives

George Eichelberger
 

We don’t post many drawings or maps to the .io group simply because so many are quite large. Here’s one @ 207M fits that category. It’s from file discussing the expansion of Cincinnati Union Terminal in 1943. There are several CUT files in the archives starting with an early plan to build “Cincinnati Union Station”. Something certainly worth of research and a TIES article?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10RLlRwVzltBPI2nyNCHSuk2x0XxWKYT1/view?usp=sharing

Ike


locked Passenger train discontinuances - PRR letter 1965

George Eichelberger
 

The demise of passenger trains in the 1960s is well known. The Southern Railway Presidents’ files in the SRHA archives contain many letters and memos on the subject. The attached is a letter from the PRR to the AAR BOD asking the ICC to speed up passenger train-off petitions.

Ike


locked Re: ICC valuation

Kevin Centers
 

John,

Good guesses on the abbreviations. You’re correct. 

Kevin



On Apr 2, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:


We currently have an ongoing 3-part series in Ties about this fascinating and historic line.
CEA
On 04/02/2021 1:26 PM John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:
 
 

HI folks

 

So, is it correct that this line was built on the 1870s & 1880s?

 

In the summary regarding pipe culverts, “L J & CIP” – is that Lock Joint and Cast Iron Pipe? 

 

Is “VCP” vitrified clay pipe?

 

It is interesting reading considering the lack of heavy equipment at the time.  Old mule drawn draw scrapers would be HARD to pull…!  As noted, haul distances would be SHORT.  Pans would have been ideal in this type of material, and haul distances much more economical, but would have seemed like something from the “great beyond” to those folks at the time.

 

Thanks for sharing

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

<image001.jpg>

 


locked Re: ICC valuation

Carl Ardrey
 

We currently have an ongoing 3-part series in Ties about this fascinating and historic line.
CEA

On 04/02/2021 1:26 PM John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:
 
 

HI folks

 

So, is it correct that this line was built on the 1870s & 1880s?

 

In the summary regarding pipe culverts, “L J & CIP” – is that Lock Joint and Cast Iron Pipe? 

 

Is “VCP” vitrified clay pipe?

 

It is interesting reading considering the lack of heavy equipment at the time.  Old mule drawn draw scrapers would be HARD to pull…!  As noted, haul distances would be SHORT.  Pans would have been ideal in this type of material, and haul distances much more economical, but would have seemed like something from the “great beyond” to those folks at the time.

 

Thanks for sharing

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 


locked Re: ICC valuation

John Stewart
 

HI folks

 

So, is it correct that this line was built on the 1870s & 1880s?

 

In the summary regarding pipe culverts, “L J & CIP” – is that Lock Joint and Cast Iron Pipe? 

 

Is “VCP” vitrified clay pipe?

 

It is interesting reading considering the lack of heavy equipment at the time.  Old mule drawn draw scrapers would be HARD to pull…!  As noted, haul distances would be SHORT.  Pans would have been ideal in this type of material, and haul distances much more economical, but would have seemed like something from the “great beyond” to those folks at the time.

 

Thanks for sharing

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 


locked Re: Streamline Passenger Trucks

Michael Cathey
 

Pullman Standard Library says 41-N-11 trucks with Decelostats(?)  and clasp brakes for post-war cars.     Mike Cathey

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Michael Cathey via groups.io
Sent: Friday, April 2, 2021 10:04 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Streamline Passenger Trucks

 

Allen,   I believe Southern used 41N trucks. Still looking for documentation.     Mike Cathey    Orange, Va.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Allen Cain
Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2021 9:20 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Streamline Passenger Trucks

 

What make and model of trucks were used on Southern Streamline passenger cars in the 50s?

 

Thanks 

 

Allen Cain


--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale

 

 


locked Re: ICC valuation

Carl Ardrey
 

Recently went through the complete Valuation Notes for the Akron Branch.  This summary was fascinating.


locked SRHA wearables

Kevin Centers
 

All,

SRHA recently partnered with Squadlocker to provide wearable items for its members. We currently offer hats, ladies and men’s polo shirts, and lightweight jackets. All are embroidered with the SRHA logo. The caps and polos can even be personalized at a marginally extra cost. Our company store can be found here:
You simply choose the items you want, along with the size, and place your order. Typically you will receive your order with 10-13 days. The quality is great and they items look very nice. 
BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE...
For the month of April ONLY, you can order our items in black or green. Trust me they both look great. And we’ve included an overnight/gym bag too. But remember the bag and black items will go away after April. So order yours today. Below are some photos of the items. 

Thanks,

Kevin Centers
Treasurer SRHA




locked Re: ICC valuation

Kevin Centers
 

Ike,

Of course you know I find this topic marginally interesting since it’s how I earned my living for a while. I’m going to add a little more dryness to the pot if that’s ok.
To shed a little more light on the V03/ER column, ICC accounts were/are broken down into sub accounts when there is a material differentiation in asset types and depreciation. So railroads today account for freight cars in ICC 53, but break them out between major car types since plain gons wouldn’t have the same life as an equipped 50’ equipped box, for example.
It should be noted that until 1982, railroads practiced betterment accounting. So if an asset was improved - 85# rail replaced with 100# rail for instance - there would not be a retirement of the 85# rail and only the differential between the two would be capitalized. As a result A’s and B’s are really important. Thankfully that process is no longer used and assets are retired as they are replaced, not just made better.

Kevin

On Apr 2, 2021, at 10:13 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net> wrote:

It’s important to understand there are multiple ICC reports than can provide quite detailed history on a railroad’s rolling stock and fixed plant. I’ve uploaded four examples* to Google Drive (the uploaded page sequence is different) at:

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Fdrive%2Ffolders%2F1EFXR6UNGkJQDejfVXOaxvny5Sqv0IFJm%3Fusp%3Dsharing&;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc310d3d6c8894b5dcdda08d8f5e173ef%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637529695948604271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=qKZ0IXFQHibkfs7I3fIsJPpilVYeeTyBqczK%2FeqTxmI%3D&amp;reserved=0

Item 1 Period from 1916-7-1 to 27-12-3, Southern Railway Account 53, Freight Cars.
ICC Form 1742 shows the initial inventory as prepared from the Date of the ICC Valuation Order (VO) until the initial valuations was to have been completed 12-31-27. Even then, the work was not done. The 1742s were sent to the ICC to be approved. There was a lot of back-and-forth between the roads and the ICC to get to final valuations. The goal of the exercise was to establish a railroad cost basis to establish rates, ROI, etc, so potentially inflated values would skew later rate calculations. There were apparently court cases and the ICC did not finalize and accept the Southern valuations until about 1932.

Sheet 13 includes a page of “plain” box cars built in 1915.
The range of dates showing cars destroyed and “A&Bs” (Additions and Betterments) show changes from the time of Valuation Order 3 in 1916 and when the final report had to be submitted in 1927. The car series road numbers, descriptions, capy., car builder and cost are usually included. Individual car numbers may/may not be broken out but cars (in this example) that were destroyed before 1927 are excluded from the 1-1-1928 inventory at the bottom of the sheet. A&Bs are typically do not show individual car numbers.

The last column is complicated but potentially very useful. Each group of similar (but not necessarily from the same carbuilder or order) were assigned either a “VO3” or “ER” (Engineering Report) Group number. That number was used to identify cars from the group through out their service lives.

Sheet 7 (1 of 2 pages) covers the same valuation study period for a different group of cars that had valuations changed by A&Bs but many were destroyed before 1927. Note at the bottom, the number of cars from this group that were “Destroyed”, “Renewed” or “Transferred” are shown. “Renewed” may (!) refer to a complete rebuild but in many cases it refers to the application of a steel underframe (SUF) or new roof. Although individual car numbers may/may not be shown, subsequent change forms (following sheets) can give a picture of the entire series.

Sheet 37 is another example page with many A&Bs shown. “Converted” refers to a car that was changed to another ICC Account code. That shows as a double entry in the valuations, first as it left its original account (53 is revenue freight cars) and then as it was eneted in the new account, Account 57 is MoW equipment for example. Multiple changes were not uncommon.

GS&F Sheet 1 shows motor vehicles but it is a good example of changes were reflected in the valuations over the years. It is dated June 30, 1962. Updates were to be submitted on every June 30 and December 31. The initial, VO3, or later additions (shown on the change forms) then subsequent updates have to be reviewed to see a car/groups' entire history.

Note: I’ll admit this material only an intro and “dry as a bone” to explain but understood, and taken in their entirety, the ICC Valuation records are among the best information available. The copies in the SRHA archives were kept by the Southern with the originals sent to the ICC. All (most?) of them for every railroad reside in a warehouse in MD and can be reviewed.

Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??

Ike








locked Re: ICC valuation

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Ike,

Thanks for sharing.  Not everyone finds this kind of info interesting, but there are a few of us.  You'll have to sound out the RPM organizers to see what they think.  Heck people thanked me for sharing after I droned on for an hour about the A&Y.  You just have to find the right audience I guess. ;-)  The RPM meet has quite a few interested in the early 20th century freight cars and more than a few interested in the Southern.

Dave

Friday, April 2, 2021, 10:13:04 AM, you wrote:

> It’s important to understand there are multiple ICC reports than can provide quite detailed history on a railroad’s rolling stock and fixed plant. I’ve uploaded four examples* to Google Drive (the uploaded page sequence is different) at:

> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EFXR6UNGkJQDejfVXOaxvny5Sqv0IFJm?usp=sharing

> Item 1 Period from 1916-7-1 to 27-12-3, Southern Railway Account 53, Freight Cars.
> ICC Form 1742 shows the initial inventory as prepared from the Date of the ICC Valuation Order (VO) until the initial valuations was to have been completed 12-31-27. Even then, the work was not done. The 1742s were sent to the ICC to be approved. There was a lot of back-and-forth between the roads and the ICC to get to final valuations. The goal of the exercise was to establish a railroad cost basis to establish rates, ROI, etc, so potentially inflated values would skew later rate calculations. There were apparently court cases and the ICC did not finalize and accept the Southern valuations until about 1932.

> Sheet 13 includes a page of “plain” box cars built in 1915.
> The range of dates showing cars destroyed and “A&Bs” (Additions and Betterments) show changes from the time of Valuation Order 3 in 1916 and when the final report had to be submitted in 1927. The car series road numbers, descriptions, capy., car builder and cost are usually included. Individual car numbers may/may not be broken out but cars (in this example) that were destroyed before 1927 are excluded from the 1-1-1928 inventory at the bottom of the sheet. A&Bs are typically do not show individual car numbers.

> The last column is complicated but potentially very useful. Each group of similar (but not necessarily from the same carbuilder or order) were assigned either a “VO3” or “ER” (Engineering Report) Group number. That number was used to identify cars from the group through out their service lives.

> Sheet 7 (1 of 2 pages) covers the same valuation study period for a different group of cars that had valuations changed by A&Bs but many were destroyed before 1927. Note at the bottom, the number of cars from this group that were “Destroyed”, “Renewed” or “Transferred” are shown. “Renewed” may (!) refer to a complete rebuild but in many cases it refers to the application of a steel underframe (SUF) or new roof. Although individual car numbers may/may not be shown, subsequent change forms (following sheets) can give a picture of the entire series.

> Sheet 37 is another example page with many A&Bs shown. “Converted” refers to a car that was changed to another ICC Account code. That shows as a double entry in the valuations, first as it left its original account (53 is revenue freight cars) and then as it was eneted in the new account, Account 57 is MoW equipment for example. Multiple changes were not uncommon.

> GS&F Sheet 1 shows motor vehicles but it is a good example of changes were reflected in the valuations over the years. It is dated June 30, 1962. Updates were to be submitted on every June 30 and December 31. The initial, VO3, or later additions (shown on the change forms) then subsequent updates have to be reviewed to see a car/groups' entire history.

> Note: I’ll admit this material only an intro and “dry as a bone” to explain but understood, and taken in their entirety, the ICC Valuation records are among the best information available. The copies in the SRHA archives were kept by the Southern with the originals sent to the ICC. All (most?) of them for every railroad reside in a warehouse in MD and can be reviewed.

> Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??

> Ike





>





--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: ICC valuation

George Eichelberger
 

It’s important to understand there are multiple ICC reports than can provide quite detailed history on a railroad’s rolling stock and fixed plant. I’ve uploaded four examples* to Google Drive (the uploaded page sequence is different) at:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EFXR6UNGkJQDejfVXOaxvny5Sqv0IFJm?usp=sharing

Item 1 Period from 1916-7-1 to 27-12-3, Southern Railway Account 53, Freight Cars.
ICC Form 1742 shows the initial inventory as prepared from the Date of the ICC Valuation Order (VO) until the initial valuations was to have been completed 12-31-27. Even then, the work was not done. The 1742s were sent to the ICC to be approved. There was a lot of back-and-forth between the roads and the ICC to get to final valuations. The goal of the exercise was to establish a railroad cost basis to establish rates, ROI, etc, so potentially inflated values would skew later rate calculations. There were apparently court cases and the ICC did not finalize and accept the Southern valuations until about 1932.

Sheet 13 includes a page of “plain” box cars built in 1915.
The range of dates showing cars destroyed and “A&Bs” (Additions and Betterments) show changes from the time of Valuation Order 3 in 1916 and when the final report had to be submitted in 1927. The car series road numbers, descriptions, capy., car builder and cost are usually included. Individual car numbers may/may not be broken out but cars (in this example) that were destroyed before 1927 are excluded from the 1-1-1928 inventory at the bottom of the sheet. A&Bs are typically do not show individual car numbers.

The last column is complicated but potentially very useful. Each group of similar (but not necessarily from the same carbuilder or order) were assigned either a “VO3” or “ER” (Engineering Report) Group number. That number was used to identify cars from the group through out their service lives.

Sheet 7 (1 of 2 pages) covers the same valuation study period for a different group of cars that had valuations changed by A&Bs but many were destroyed before 1927. Note at the bottom, the number of cars from this group that were “Destroyed”, “Renewed” or “Transferred” are shown. “Renewed” may (!) refer to a complete rebuild but in many cases it refers to the application of a steel underframe (SUF) or new roof. Although individual car numbers may/may not be shown, subsequent change forms (following sheets) can give a picture of the entire series.

Sheet 37 is another example page with many A&Bs shown. “Converted” refers to a car that was changed to another ICC Account code. That shows as a double entry in the valuations, first as it left its original account (53 is revenue freight cars) and then as it was eneted in the new account, Account 57 is MoW equipment for example. Multiple changes were not uncommon.

GS&F Sheet 1 shows motor vehicles but it is a good example of changes were reflected in the valuations over the years. It is dated June 30, 1962. Updates were to be submitted on every June 30 and December 31. The initial, VO3, or later additions (shown on the change forms) then subsequent updates have to be reviewed to see a car/groups' entire history.

Note: I’ll admit this material only an intro and “dry as a bone” to explain but understood, and taken in their entirety, the ICC Valuation records are among the best information available. The copies in the SRHA archives were kept by the Southern with the originals sent to the ICC. All (most?) of them for every railroad reside in a warehouse in MD and can be reviewed.

Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??

Ike


locked Re: Streamline Passenger Trucks

Michael Cathey
 

Allen,   I believe Southern used 41N trucks. Still looking for documentation.     Mike Cathey    Orange, Va.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Allen Cain
Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2021 9:20 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Streamline Passenger Trucks

 

What make and model of trucks were used on Southern Streamline passenger cars in the 50s?

 

Thanks 

 

Allen Cain


--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale

 


locked Streamline Passenger Trucks

Allen Cain
 

What make and model of trucks were used on Southern Streamline passenger cars in the 50s?

Thanks 

Allen Cain

--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale


locked Re: Taxed properties on the railroad

bjarne@juno.com
 

The answer depends on the state's valuation rules. Real estate is typically assessed and taxed pursuant to state law -- so you need to look at the laws, and the lawsuits over those laws, in the particular state that you are interested in. Many railroads had departments devoted to managing their tax obligations across the states that they served.


locked Re: Taxed properties on the railroad

A&Y Dave in MD
 

I would suspect there might be different taxes, including property tax, corporate income tax, local taxes, etc. I would bet differences depend upon whether there were laws, charters, or agreements forgiving taxes to entice construction in that area, how deductions can be worked, what era you are talking about, etc., etc., etc.  Aren’t the variables and complexity why there are scores of financial lawyers on the payroll? If it were easy to figure, they wouldn’t have jobs. Good question but hard to answer.

Dave Bott


On Mar 31, 2021, at 3:22 PM, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:


Question:

When a section of railroad is either unused or out of service (i.e. - Railbanked), are the taxes on the property of the railroad the same as when it is in service and deriving income and specifically taxes for services rendered along its road and if so at what rate/percentage difference?

Thank you.

Bob Cohen


locked Re: Taxed properties on the railroad

Bill Schafer
 

I don’t know. I assume that if the RR was paying taxes on the line when it was in service, it would pay taxes on it if it remained in place even if unused. Just my guess.

On Mar 31, 2021, at 15:22, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Question:

When a section of railroad is either unused or out of service (i.e. - Railbanked), are the taxes on the property of the railroad the same as when it is in service and deriving income and specifically taxes for services rendered along its road and if so at what rate/percentage difference?

Thank you.

Bob Cohen

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