Date   

locked Re: Questions

Michael Young
 

Here's a link to the 1954 public timetable page that shows the consist at that time.  I was born in 1954, and can vaguely remember seeing the diner laying over on the servicing track at Columbia, but by the time I made my first trip on the Carolina Special, around 1963, the Columbia-Charleston segment had been discontinued, and the diner was cut back to either Asheville or Knoxville.  For that first trip only, the Louisville sleeper was still running, but not for long after that.  From then on until final discontinuance in 1968, it was a 2-car consist, a baggage car and a modernized heavyweight coach.  My admittedly vague memory of the diner is that it was a modernized heavyweight one, probably in the 3100 series.
Mike Young

https://www.flickr.com/photos/michaeljy/6133995989/in/album-72157619877273926/



-----Original Message-----
From: Clark Barrow <clark.barrow@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 10:20 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Questions

Thanks Evan and everyone else for your responses. I’m interested in whatever years the Southern Railway Diner Car 3168 (or a similar heavyweight car) was a part of the consist. When was this diner car used and what was the consist for this train? Thanks again.

On May 18, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Evan Whatley <Evan.w.what@...> wrote:

Hey Clark. The Carolina Special has a long and storied history. What era/years are you interested in getting consist information for?
--
-Evan Whatley


locked Re: Questions

Clark Barrow
 

Thanks Evan and everyone else for your responses. I’m interested in whatever years the Southern Railway Diner Car 3168 (or a similar heavyweight car) was a part of the consist. When was this diner car used and what was the consist for this train? Thanks again.

On May 18, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Evan Whatley <Evan.w.what@...> wrote:

Hey Clark. The Carolina Special has a long and storied history. What era/years are you interested in getting consist information for?
--
-Evan Whatley


locked Re: Questions

Evan Whatley
 

Hey Clark. The Carolina Special has a long and storied history. What era/years are you interested in getting consist information for?
--
-Evan Whatley


locked Re: Questions

George Eichelberger
 

Clark:

You didn't mention a year for the "Carolina Special" consist, here is a document from 11-15-67 showing the standard consist of Train 27 not long before it was discontinued. The Pullman came off before the train was killed. "Diesels" would have been either upgraded passenger F-3s (called F3/7s by the Southern) or FP-7s. (Probably FPs by Nov. of '67?) Any baggage cars southbound to Oakdale probably would have continued in the Atlanta section.

Ike

 


locked Re: Questions

Michael Cathey
 

Welcome Clark,
According to a passenger car diagram book, Sou Rwy 3168 is 82'-4" over the buffers/diaphrams, 78'-1" inside length, 58'-9" truck centers.
There are pass car experts on here, just happened to have my book nearby.
Mike Cathey 


locked Questions

Clark Barrow
 

Hello,

I'm new to the group and interested to learn more about Southern Railway. I have a couple questions (this in regards to a few model train cars I just purchased):

Southern Railway Diner Car 3168: how long is this car?

Also, how long were typical Southern heavyweight passenger cars?

For trains like the Carolina Special, would Southern use these heavyweight cars with a 60' baggage car? I've searched for a consist of the Carolina Special and can't find a complete list online.

Thanks for your help, appreciate the knowledge.

Clark Barrow


locked Re: SouthernRailway Covered hoppers in kaolin clay service - 1964

George Eichelberger
 

I know I have seen lists of destinations for kaolin clay that were routed via the Southern (they virtually all originated on the Central of Georgia) but, of course, I cannot find them off hand. Here is a Google drive link to two short documents. The second covers routings off the Central that did not use the Southern not long after the ICC directed the Southern to take over the CofG.


They were part of the internal correspondence, including the Sandersville Railroad and kaolin shippers, as the Southern was trying to handle more of the traffic. Problem was, the kaolin industry was growing very quickly, the Central’s fleet of covered hoppers was old and inadequate and kaolin shippers were moving away from loading bags of product in box cars and into covered hoppers.

Southern ordered a large number of 4,000 cu ft aluminum covered hoppers from Magor. When the railroad asked for a larger capacity covered hopper, Magor developed what became the “Big John” car by essentially stretching that design. My intention was to kit bash one of the ExactRail Big Johns “back” to one of the earlier cars. Although I have a number of Big Johns on the (Asheville) layout, E-R did such a beautiful job on them (with many (!) Magor drawings from the SRHA archives), I just do not have the heart to cut one of them down.

Ike

As info to anyone interested in the Central of Georgia, the archives contain many CofG freight  car drawings and documents.



locked Troop Movements in 1917-18

George Eichelberger
 

From the Southern Railway Historical Association Archives, Box 334A:

Although unremarked, and for a much shorter period than WWII, railroad troop movements for WWI were still significant. Here is page 1 of a report to the USRA Director of Operations describing “The Troop Movement” from January, 1918 until November 10, 1918. For anyone interested, the full seven-page report and a summary of movements 1917-18 can be downloaded from Google Drive using:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VjAwyBSNakGwksF1v3Hsoup2GUm57OvK?usp=sharing

The reports apparently include both troops returning from the Mexican border (ie Pancho Villa) and going to ports of embarkation for Europe.

Ike


locked Re: Covered hoppers in kaolin clay service - 1964

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Ike wrote:

> References seem to be missing for tank cars used in clay slurry service, not used in the early 60s?

Clay slurry (in water) did not become common until the mid '70s, and when it did it was all carried in privately owned tank cars.  ACFX, GATX, NATX, UTLX, etc.  Supplying tank cars was not the railroads' problem.

Clay slurry in the form of ink was shipped in tank cars in the '60s.  The carrier was flammable, so these tanks can be spotted by their placards.

I know JM Huber's plant on the Southern's Brunswick line (at Huber, just SE of Macon) shipped ink.  Don't know about the other plants.

Scott Chatfield


locked Covered hoppers in kaolin clay service - 1964

George Eichelberger
 

The SRHA archives include many files on the shortage/purchase/rebuilding of 40’ box cars 1963-65. Many were needed as the Southern’s contribution to various on-line and off-line car pools and for Kaolin clay service. (The re-write of the SRHA  Southern 40’ box car book slows down every time I find important files on that subject.)

Because the Kaolin clay business originated mostly on the Central of Georgia, many CG files discuss the shortage of covered hoppers, also in ’64-’65 due to the rapid growth of Kaolin for coated paper and other industrial processes. That business made use of other road’s covered hoppers if some of the mileage was on those lines.

By early 1964, deliveries and reassignments of additional Southern covered hoppers increased the proportion of SRS cars used. Here is a 4-23-64 inventory of the covered hoppers used for clay service. Some owners are far from the middle Georgia kaolin mines but were in the routings to the paper and chemical plant destinations for the clay. (References seem to be missing for tank cars used in clay slurry service, not used in the early 60s?)

Ike





locked Hell Gate Bridge

George Eichelberger
 

By now, I probably should not be surprised at the variety of material I find in the Southern Railway Presidents’ files in the SRHA archives. I suspect we do not realize how important passenger revenue was to the Southern before the Depression, and how much advertising the railroad did to promote it.

Here are two pages of a four-page brochure on the Hell Gate Bridge. Has anyone seen it before or are there other, similar items in anyone’s collection?

Ike

PS We are anticipating scheduling an archives work session the third weekend of June (Fri and Sat) if conditions and restrictions in Chattanooga/Hamilton County change. Check the SRHA web site www.srha.net.



locked Re: SOU 42' Gondola Questions

David Friedlander
 

All,

Thanks for the extra history.  I didn't realize coal has acid in it that would eat away at steel cars, but that makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for Bob's number. I haven't lived in Raleigh for close to a decade now, but would go every year to the Neuse River Show during my childhood.  The Sipping and Switching layout was always something I remembered enjoying watching.  Unfortunately I can't visit home that weekend since I have a vaccine appointment that I should not skip.

David Friedlander


On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 10:59 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Tim:

No, Sou 992987 (according to the SR MoW records) is one of the high side gons built by Mt. VernonCar Co. in 1943. I’m sure the info is someplace but I cannot locate the car’s revenue road number.

The all steel drop bottom “DB” and double drop bottom “DDB” “coal cars” of the earlier period did not hold up well because their steel could not handle the acid from coal. The Southern went through a series of all steel gons then shifted to composite cars before returning to all steel gons. Few cars from the teens and twenties (incl USRA types) were rebuilt because they were twenty-ish years old when the depression made most any kind of cars unnecessary.

Ike



On Apr 24, 2021, at 10:46 AM, TIM ANDREWS <ANDREWSTIM@...> wrote:

Could this be a similar car?

<1619275245435blob.jpg>

Photo was made January 10, 2020 in Chattanooga







On Friday, April 23, 2021, 11:31:34 PM EDT, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:


Hi Bill,

Thank you for helping me with that information. Glad to see the other model is numbered correctly after all.  I'll have to think about what I want to do and either paint it similarly and weather it in rough shape, or possibly make some mods to it and/or just letter it in and Gothic and put it into MoW service with ties, tieplates, or rail.

Two questions if you don't mind me asking:
1. What source is Bob's Photo's? Is that someone on here, a photograph store, or similar?
2. By door locks, do you mean the ratcheting mechanisms on either side of the carbody?

Thanks,
David


On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:14 AM William Harley via groups.io <williamharley=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
David,
This is a model of a Southern Coal Gondola. 
The following information is from the Sunshine Models Prototype Data Sheet.
The Southern purchase 4447 of these from 1937-1941.
Cars from 1937 became CNO&TP 287000 - 287999 and AGS 315700 - 315949 (this is the series your car is numbered for).  Numbers from 175000 - 176344 from 1938, 176345 - 177376 from 1939 and 177377 - 178197 from 1941 were Southern cars.  The 1939 lot cars, the 176345 - 177376 series were built by Mt Vernon.  All other cars were built by ACF.
The cars were originally CAPY: 100,000.
I have a couple of photo’s from Bob’s Photos which show these cars in use without door locks in 1951 and 1957.
Hope this helps.
Bill Harley

On Apr 23, 2021, at 12:16 AM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a model of a 42' Gondola made by PSC for quite some time.  I'm trying to understand what I actually have. There is no documentation in the box and nothing really at all about this model online.  Maybe the SRHA helped PSC when this model was originally imported? It strikes me as an odd model to import, but it seems rare, so maybe it was a good choice. 

I was originally looking to paint and letter it for GB 180441 as shown on the 6th page from the last page in the SOU freight car color guide despite some of the cosmetic differences.

The box-end says "Southern Railway 42' Gondola (6-door), Enterprise Rwy. Equipment Co.  A photo of the box end:
<scale-brass-psc-southern-railway-42.jpg>

My car is unpainted, but I found one that someone did up as car 315784 on brasstrains:
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/119483/O-Brass-Model-PSC-SOU-Southern-42-Gondola-315784-Custom-Lhee-Do-Wrong-Box

While done well, I know good and well not to trust someone else's paint job. I took a look at my OCT 1968 ORER for both the 180200-180999 series and the 315700-315949 series and here is what I see below:

<G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>

Interestingly, I measured the outside length (over the "strikers") to be 10.5" which translates to 42'. Even with couplers it still would be a foot short of the 45'11" listed for either series.  I am pretty sure the 180441 was wrong, but it looks like 315784 may be a foobie as well. (The dimensions are interestingly identical...more on that next.)

I then took a look at my Freight equipment diagram book (vol1) and after looking through the gondolas (all from a 1971 diagram book), found a few drawings that describe the above series, but not necessarily the car I have.  These are on pages G2154 and G2155. There in the special notes, it actually says that 315700-315949 were rebuilt into the 180200-180999 series in 1968.  The diagrams also note that the drop-bottom doors in the sill were made by Enterprise, which is the same name shown on the box ends, even though the car builder was very likely someone like Mt. Vernon.

So my questions are:
1. What do I have a model of? ie - What series is from?
2. Do we know if any made it to late the 60's? (and without retrofit)
3. If its unlikely such a car made it to the late 60's then I like my idea of sticking with my foobie repaint of it into 180441.  With that said, even with the ORER and the Diagram Book, I still need to figure out the LD LMT and the BLT Date. Any thoughts on those? The CAPY is 110000 and the LTWT is 45100. The "new" date would be in 1968, but I'm going to go with what I see on page G2155 and say this was built sometime back in 1940.

Thanks,
David Friedlander <G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>



<1619275245435blob.jpg>


locked Re: SOU 42' Gondola Questions

George Eichelberger
 

Tim:

No, Sou 992987 (according to the SR MoW records) is one of the high side gons built by Mt. VernonCar Co. in 1943. I’m sure the info is someplace but I cannot locate the car’s revenue road number.

The all steel drop bottom “DB” and double drop bottom “DDB” “coal cars” of the earlier period did not hold up well because their steel could not handle the acid from coal. The Southern went through a series of all steel gons then shifted to composite cars before returning to all steel gons. Few cars from the teens and twenties (incl USRA types) were rebuilt because they were twenty-ish years old when the depression made most any kind of cars unnecessary.

Ike



On Apr 24, 2021, at 10:46 AM, TIM ANDREWS <ANDREWSTIM@...> wrote:

Could this be a similar car?

<1619275245435blob.jpg>

Photo was made January 10, 2020 in Chattanooga







On Friday, April 23, 2021, 11:31:34 PM EDT, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:


Hi Bill,

Thank you for helping me with that information. Glad to see the other model is numbered correctly after all.  I'll have to think about what I want to do and either paint it similarly and weather it in rough shape, or possibly make some mods to it and/or just letter it in and Gothic and put it into MoW service with ties, tieplates, or rail.

Two questions if you don't mind me asking:
1. What source is Bob's Photo's? Is that someone on here, a photograph store, or similar?
2. By door locks, do you mean the ratcheting mechanisms on either side of the carbody?

Thanks,
David


On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:14 AM William Harley via groups.io <williamharley=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
David,
This is a model of a Southern Coal Gondola. 
The following information is from the Sunshine Models Prototype Data Sheet.
The Southern purchase 4447 of these from 1937-1941.
Cars from 1937 became CNO&TP 287000 - 287999 and AGS 315700 - 315949 (this is the series your car is numbered for).  Numbers from 175000 - 176344 from 1938, 176345 - 177376 from 1939 and 177377 - 178197 from 1941 were Southern cars.  The 1939 lot cars, the 176345 - 177376 series were built by Mt Vernon.  All other cars were built by ACF.
The cars were originally CAPY: 100,000.
I have a couple of photo’s from Bob’s Photos which show these cars in use without door locks in 1951 and 1957.
Hope this helps.
Bill Harley

On Apr 23, 2021, at 12:16 AM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a model of a 42' Gondola made by PSC for quite some time.  I'm trying to understand what I actually have. There is no documentation in the box and nothing really at all about this model online.  Maybe the SRHA helped PSC when this model was originally imported? It strikes me as an odd model to import, but it seems rare, so maybe it was a good choice. 

I was originally looking to paint and letter it for GB 180441 as shown on the 6th page from the last page in the SOU freight car color guide despite some of the cosmetic differences.

The box-end says "Southern Railway 42' Gondola (6-door), Enterprise Rwy. Equipment Co.  A photo of the box end:
<scale-brass-psc-southern-railway-42.jpg>

My car is unpainted, but I found one that someone did up as car 315784 on brasstrains:
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/119483/O-Brass-Model-PSC-SOU-Southern-42-Gondola-315784-Custom-Lhee-Do-Wrong-Box

While done well, I know good and well not to trust someone else's paint job. I took a look at my OCT 1968 ORER for both the 180200-180999 series and the 315700-315949 series and here is what I see below:

<G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>

Interestingly, I measured the outside length (over the "strikers") to be 10.5" which translates to 42'. Even with couplers it still would be a foot short of the 45'11" listed for either series.  I am pretty sure the 180441 was wrong, but it looks like 315784 may be a foobie as well. (The dimensions are interestingly identical...more on that next.)

I then took a look at my Freight equipment diagram book (vol1) and after looking through the gondolas (all from a 1971 diagram book), found a few drawings that describe the above series, but not necessarily the car I have.  These are on pages G2154 and G2155. There in the special notes, it actually says that 315700-315949 were rebuilt into the 180200-180999 series in 1968.  The diagrams also note that the drop-bottom doors in the sill were made by Enterprise, which is the same name shown on the box ends, even though the car builder was very likely someone like Mt. Vernon.

So my questions are:
1. What do I have a model of? ie - What series is from?
2. Do we know if any made it to late the 60's? (and without retrofit)
3. If its unlikely such a car made it to the late 60's then I like my idea of sticking with my foobie repaint of it into 180441.  With that said, even with the ORER and the Diagram Book, I still need to figure out the LD LMT and the BLT Date. Any thoughts on those? The CAPY is 110000 and the LTWT is 45100. The "new" date would be in 1968, but I'm going to go with what I see on page G2155 and say this was built sometime back in 1940.

Thanks,
David Friedlander <G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>



<1619275245435blob.jpg>


locked Re: SOU 42' Gondola Questions

TIM ANDREWS
 

Could this be a similar car?

Inline image

Photo was made January 10, 2020 in Chattanooga







On Friday, April 23, 2021, 11:31:34 PM EDT, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:


Hi Bill,

Thank you for helping me with that information. Glad to see the other model is numbered correctly after all.  I'll have to think about what I want to do and either paint it similarly and weather it in rough shape, or possibly make some mods to it and/or just letter it in and Gothic and put it into MoW service with ties, tieplates, or rail.

Two questions if you don't mind me asking:
1. What source is Bob's Photo's? Is that someone on here, a photograph store, or similar?
2. By door locks, do you mean the ratcheting mechanisms on either side of the carbody?

Thanks,
David


On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:14 AM William Harley via groups.io <williamharley=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
David,
This is a model of a Southern Coal Gondola. 
The following information is from the Sunshine Models Prototype Data Sheet.
The Southern purchase 4447 of these from 1937-1941.
Cars from 1937 became CNO&TP 287000 - 287999 and AGS 315700 - 315949 (this is the series your car is numbered for).  Numbers from 175000 - 176344 from 1938, 176345 - 177376 from 1939 and 177377 - 178197 from 1941 were Southern cars.  The 1939 lot cars, the 176345 - 177376 series were built by Mt Vernon.  All other cars were built by ACF.
The cars were originally CAPY: 100,000.
I have a couple of photo’s from Bob’s Photos which show these cars in use without door locks in 1951 and 1957.
Hope this helps.
Bill Harley

On Apr 23, 2021, at 12:16 AM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a model of a 42' Gondola made by PSC for quite some time.  I'm trying to understand what I actually have. There is no documentation in the box and nothing really at all about this model online.  Maybe the SRHA helped PSC when this model was originally imported? It strikes me as an odd model to import, but it seems rare, so maybe it was a good choice. 

I was originally looking to paint and letter it for GB 180441 as shown on the 6th page from the last page in the SOU freight car color guide despite some of the cosmetic differences.

The box-end says "Southern Railway 42' Gondola (6-door), Enterprise Rwy. Equipment Co.  A photo of the box end:
<scale-brass-psc-southern-railway-42.jpg>

My car is unpainted, but I found one that someone did up as car 315784 on brasstrains:
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/119483/O-Brass-Model-PSC-SOU-Southern-42-Gondola-315784-Custom-Lhee-Do-Wrong-Box

While done well, I know good and well not to trust someone else's paint job. I took a look at my OCT 1968 ORER for both the 180200-180999 series and the 315700-315949 series and here is what I see below:

<G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>

Interestingly, I measured the outside length (over the "strikers") to be 10.5" which translates to 42'. Even with couplers it still would be a foot short of the 45'11" listed for either series.  I am pretty sure the 180441 was wrong, but it looks like 315784 may be a foobie as well. (The dimensions are interestingly identical...more on that next.)

I then took a look at my Freight equipment diagram book (vol1) and after looking through the gondolas (all from a 1971 diagram book), found a few drawings that describe the above series, but not necessarily the car I have.  These are on pages G2154 and G2155. There in the special notes, it actually says that 315700-315949 were rebuilt into the 180200-180999 series in 1968.  The diagrams also note that the drop-bottom doors in the sill were made by Enterprise, which is the same name shown on the box ends, even though the car builder was very likely someone like Mt. Vernon.

So my questions are:
1. What do I have a model of? ie - What series is from?
2. Do we know if any made it to late the 60's? (and without retrofit)
3. If its unlikely such a car made it to the late 60's then I like my idea of sticking with my foobie repaint of it into 180441.  With that said, even with the ORER and the Diagram Book, I still need to figure out the LD LMT and the BLT Date. Any thoughts on those? The CAPY is 110000 and the LTWT is 45100. The "new" date would be in 1968, but I'm going to go with what I see on page G2155 and say this was built sometime back in 1940.

Thanks,
David Friedlander <G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>


locked Re: SOU 42' Gondola Questions

David Carpenter
 

David,
Bob is in Wallingford KY. He will be at the Neuse River show in Raleigh May 1-2. (Next weekend!) His number is 606-748-1811
David Carpenter


On Apr 23, 2021, at 11:30 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

Thank you for helping me with that information. Glad to see the other model is numbered correctly after all.  I'll have to think about what I want to do and either paint it similarly and weather it in rough shape, or possibly make some mods to it and/or just letter it in and Gothic and put it into MoW service with ties, tieplates, or rail.

Two questions if you don't mind me asking:
1. What source is Bob's Photo's? Is that someone on here, a photograph store, or similar?
2. By door locks, do you mean the ratcheting mechanisms on either side of the carbody?

Thanks,
David


On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:14 AM William Harley via groups.io <williamharley=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
David,
This is a model of a Southern Coal Gondola. 
The following information is from the Sunshine Models Prototype Data Sheet.
The Southern purchase 4447 of these from 1937-1941.
Cars from 1937 became CNO&TP 287000 - 287999 and AGS 315700 - 315949 (this is the series your car is numbered for).  Numbers from 175000 - 176344 from 1938, 176345 - 177376 from 1939 and 177377 - 178197 from 1941 were Southern cars.  The 1939 lot cars, the 176345 - 177376 series were built by Mt Vernon.  All other cars were built by ACF.
The cars were originally CAPY: 100,000.
I have a couple of photo’s from Bob’s Photos which show these cars in use without door locks in 1951 and 1957.
Hope this helps.
Bill Harley

On Apr 23, 2021, at 12:16 AM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a model of a 42' Gondola made by PSC for quite some time.  I'm trying to understand what I actually have. There is no documentation in the box and nothing really at all about this model online.  Maybe the SRHA helped PSC when this model was originally imported? It strikes me as an odd model to import, but it seems rare, so maybe it was a good choice. 

I was originally looking to paint and letter it for GB 180441 as shown on the 6th page from the last page in the SOU freight car color guide despite some of the cosmetic differences.

The box-end says "Southern Railway 42' Gondola (6-door), Enterprise Rwy. Equipment Co.  A photo of the box end:
<scale-brass-psc-southern-railway-42.jpg>

My car is unpainted, but I found one that someone did up as car 315784 on brasstrains:
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/119483/O-Brass-Model-PSC-SOU-Southern-42-Gondola-315784-Custom-Lhee-Do-Wrong-Box

While done well, I know good and well not to trust someone else's paint job. I took a look at my OCT 1968 ORER for both the 180200-180999 series and the 315700-315949 series and here is what I see below:

<G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>

Interestingly, I measured the outside length (over the "strikers") to be 10.5" which translates to 42'. Even with couplers it still would be a foot short of the 45'11" listed for either series.  I am pretty sure the 180441 was wrong, but it looks like 315784 may be a foobie as well. (The dimensions are interestingly identical...more on that next.)

I then took a look at my Freight equipment diagram book (vol1) and after looking through the gondolas (all from a 1971 diagram book), found a few drawings that describe the above series, but not necessarily the car I have.  These are on pages G2154 and G2155. There in the special notes, it actually says that 315700-315949 were rebuilt into the 180200-180999 series in 1968.  The diagrams also note that the drop-bottom doors in the sill were made by Enterprise, which is the same name shown on the box ends, even though the car builder was very likely someone like Mt. Vernon.

So my questions are:
1. What do I have a model of? ie - What series is from?
2. Do we know if any made it to late the 60's? (and without retrofit)
3. If its unlikely such a car made it to the late 60's then I like my idea of sticking with my foobie repaint of it into 180441.  With that said, even with the ORER and the Diagram Book, I still need to figure out the LD LMT and the BLT Date. Any thoughts on those? The CAPY is 110000 and the LTWT is 45100. The "new" date would be in 1968, but I'm going to go with what I see on page G2155 and say this was built sometime back in 1940.

Thanks,
David Friedlander <G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>





locked Re: SOU 42' Gondola Questions

David Friedlander
 

Hi Bill,

Thank you for helping me with that information. Glad to see the other model is numbered correctly after all.  I'll have to think about what I want to do and either paint it similarly and weather it in rough shape, or possibly make some mods to it and/or just letter it in and Gothic and put it into MoW service with ties, tieplates, or rail.

Two questions if you don't mind me asking:
1. What source is Bob's Photo's? Is that someone on here, a photograph store, or similar?
2. By door locks, do you mean the ratcheting mechanisms on either side of the carbody?

Thanks,
David


On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:14 AM William Harley via groups.io <williamharley=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
David,
This is a model of a Southern Coal Gondola. 
The following information is from the Sunshine Models Prototype Data Sheet.
The Southern purchase 4447 of these from 1937-1941.
Cars from 1937 became CNO&TP 287000 - 287999 and AGS 315700 - 315949 (this is the series your car is numbered for).  Numbers from 175000 - 176344 from 1938, 176345 - 177376 from 1939 and 177377 - 178197 from 1941 were Southern cars.  The 1939 lot cars, the 176345 - 177376 series were built by Mt Vernon.  All other cars were built by ACF.
The cars were originally CAPY: 100,000.
I have a couple of photo’s from Bob’s Photos which show these cars in use without door locks in 1951 and 1957.
Hope this helps.
Bill Harley

On Apr 23, 2021, at 12:16 AM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a model of a 42' Gondola made by PSC for quite some time.  I'm trying to understand what I actually have. There is no documentation in the box and nothing really at all about this model online.  Maybe the SRHA helped PSC when this model was originally imported? It strikes me as an odd model to import, but it seems rare, so maybe it was a good choice. 

I was originally looking to paint and letter it for GB 180441 as shown on the 6th page from the last page in the SOU freight car color guide despite some of the cosmetic differences.

The box-end says "Southern Railway 42' Gondola (6-door), Enterprise Rwy. Equipment Co.  A photo of the box end:
<scale-brass-psc-southern-railway-42.jpg>

My car is unpainted, but I found one that someone did up as car 315784 on brasstrains:
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/119483/O-Brass-Model-PSC-SOU-Southern-42-Gondola-315784-Custom-Lhee-Do-Wrong-Box

While done well, I know good and well not to trust someone else's paint job. I took a look at my OCT 1968 ORER for both the 180200-180999 series and the 315700-315949 series and here is what I see below:

<G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>

Interestingly, I measured the outside length (over the "strikers") to be 10.5" which translates to 42'. Even with couplers it still would be a foot short of the 45'11" listed for either series.  I am pretty sure the 180441 was wrong, but it looks like 315784 may be a foobie as well. (The dimensions are interestingly identical...more on that next.)

I then took a look at my Freight equipment diagram book (vol1) and after looking through the gondolas (all from a 1971 diagram book), found a few drawings that describe the above series, but not necessarily the car I have.  These are on pages G2154 and G2155. There in the special notes, it actually says that 315700-315949 were rebuilt into the 180200-180999 series in 1968.  The diagrams also note that the drop-bottom doors in the sill were made by Enterprise, which is the same name shown on the box ends, even though the car builder was very likely someone like Mt. Vernon.

So my questions are:
1. What do I have a model of? ie - What series is from?
2. Do we know if any made it to late the 60's? (and without retrofit)
3. If its unlikely such a car made it to the late 60's then I like my idea of sticking with my foobie repaint of it into 180441.  With that said, even with the ORER and the Diagram Book, I still need to figure out the LD LMT and the BLT Date. Any thoughts on those? The CAPY is 110000 and the LTWT is 45100. The "new" date would be in 1968, but I'm going to go with what I see on page G2155 and say this was built sometime back in 1940.

Thanks,
David Friedlander <G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>


locked Re: SOU 42' Gondola Questions

William Harley
 

David,
This is a model of a Southern Coal Gondola. 
The following information is from the Sunshine Models Prototype Data Sheet.
The Southern purchase 4447 of these from 1937-1941.
Cars from 1937 became CNO&TP 287000 - 287999 and AGS 315700 - 315949 (this is the series your car is numbered for).  Numbers from 175000 - 176344 from 1938, 176345 - 177376 from 1939 and 177377 - 178197 from 1941 were Southern cars.  The 1939 lot cars, the 176345 - 177376 series were built by Mt Vernon.  All other cars were built by ACF.
The cars were originally CAPY: 100,000.
I have a couple of photo’s from Bob’s Photos which show these cars in use without door locks in 1951 and 1957.
Hope this helps.
Bill Harley

On Apr 23, 2021, at 12:16 AM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a model of a 42' Gondola made by PSC for quite some time.  I'm trying to understand what I actually have. There is no documentation in the box and nothing really at all about this model online.  Maybe the SRHA helped PSC when this model was originally imported? It strikes me as an odd model to import, but it seems rare, so maybe it was a good choice. 

I was originally looking to paint and letter it for GB 180441 as shown on the 6th page from the last page in the SOU freight car color guide despite some of the cosmetic differences.

The box-end says "Southern Railway 42' Gondola (6-door), Enterprise Rwy. Equipment Co.  A photo of the box end:
<scale-brass-psc-southern-railway-42.jpg>

My car is unpainted, but I found one that someone did up as car 315784 on brasstrains:
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/119483/O-Brass-Model-PSC-SOU-Southern-42-Gondola-315784-Custom-Lhee-Do-Wrong-Box

While done well, I know good and well not to trust someone else's paint job. I took a look at my OCT 1968 ORER for both the 180200-180999 series and the 315700-315949 series and here is what I see below:

<G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>

Interestingly, I measured the outside length (over the "strikers") to be 10.5" which translates to 42'. Even with couplers it still would be a foot short of the 45'11" listed for either series.  I am pretty sure the 180441 was wrong, but it looks like 315784 may be a foobie as well. (The dimensions are interestingly identical...more on that next.)

I then took a look at my Freight equipment diagram book (vol1) and after looking through the gondolas (all from a 1971 diagram book), found a few drawings that describe the above series, but not necessarily the car I have.  These are on pages G2154 and G2155. There in the special notes, it actually says that 315700-315949 were rebuilt into the 180200-180999 series in 1968.  The diagrams also note that the drop-bottom doors in the sill were made by Enterprise, which is the same name shown on the box ends, even though the car builder was very likely someone like Mt. Vernon.

So my questions are:
1. What do I have a model of? ie - What series is from?
2. Do we know if any made it to late the 60's? (and without retrofit)
3. If its unlikely such a car made it to the late 60's then I like my idea of sticking with my foobie repaint of it into 180441.  With that said, even with the ORER and the Diagram Book, I still need to figure out the LD LMT and the BLT Date. Any thoughts on those? The CAPY is 110000 and the LTWT is 45100. The "new" date would be in 1968, but I'm going to go with what I see on page G2155 and say this was built sometime back in 1940.

Thanks,
David Friedlander <G102_G112_1968 ORER.jpg>


locked SOU 42' Gondola Questions

David Friedlander
 

Hi all,

I've had a model of a 42' Gondola made by PSC for quite some time.  I'm trying to understand what I actually have. There is no documentation in the box and nothing really at all about this model online.  Maybe the SRHA helped PSC when this model was originally imported? It strikes me as an odd model to import, but it seems rare, so maybe it was a good choice. 

I was originally looking to paint and letter it for GB 180441 as shown on the 6th page from the last page in the SOU freight car color guide despite some of the cosmetic differences.

The box-end says "Southern Railway 42' Gondola (6-door), Enterprise Rwy. Equipment Co.  A photo of the box end:


My car is unpainted, but I found one that someone did up as car 315784 on brasstrains:
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/119483/O-Brass-Model-PSC-SOU-Southern-42-Gondola-315784-Custom-Lhee-Do-Wrong-Box

While done well, I know good and well not to trust someone else's paint job. I took a look at my OCT 1968 ORER for both the 180200-180999 series and the 315700-315949 series and here is what I see below:



Interestingly, I measured the outside length (over the "strikers") to be 10.5" which translates to 42'. Even with couplers it still would be a foot short of the 45'11" listed for either series.  I am pretty sure the 180441 was wrong, but it looks like 315784 may be a foobie as well. (The dimensions are interestingly identical...more on that next.)

I then took a look at my Freight equipment diagram book (vol1) and after looking through the gondolas (all from a 1971 diagram book), found a few drawings that describe the above series, but not necessarily the car I have.  These are on pages G2154 and G2155. There in the special notes, it actually says that 315700-315949 were rebuilt into the 180200-180999 series in 1968.  The diagrams also note that the drop-bottom doors in the sill were made by Enterprise, which is the same name shown on the box ends, even though the car builder was very likely someone like Mt. Vernon.

So my questions are:
1. What do I have a model of? ie - What series is from?
2. Do we know if any made it to late the 60's? (and without retrofit)
3. If its unlikely such a car made it to the late 60's then I like my idea of sticking with my foobie repaint of it into 180441.  With that said, even with the ORER and the Diagram Book, I still need to figure out the LD LMT and the BLT Date. Any thoughts on those? The CAPY is 110000 and the LTWT is 45100. The "new" date would be in 1968, but I'm going to go with what I see on page G2155 and say this was built sometime back in 1940.

Thanks,
David Friedlander


locked Re: Walthers Mark III & Mark IV Flexi-Van Flatcar Models

Rodney Shu
 

I look forward to meeting you soon     


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2021 2:01 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Walthers Mark III & Mark IV Flexi-Van Flatcar Models
 
Rodney:

There must (!) be some videos of the Southern container cranes among the films SRHA received from NS a  number of years ago. (More videos than I remember, my Honda Accord was down on its springs with the load coming back from McDonough.)

Some were digitized and were/are available from Green Frog (well worth their price). Others have been put on DVDs but never sold because of the death of one of the GF folks…..another project we should re-start.

Ike

PS Plans cannot be finalized but our thought is to start archives work sessions with the June session.


On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote:

Thanks for the information.  I plan to be in Chattanooga at the next "work day" and will certainly look set aside some time to look through those files. I wonder if there are any short videos of the loading/unloading those containers.  As a boy I remember seeing many of those facilities from the windows of The Southerner. 


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 10:58 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>; ModelingTheSouthern@southernrailway.groups.io <ModelingTheSouthern@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Walthers Mark III & Mark IV Flexi-Van Flatcar Models
 
Rod:

I never managed handling COFC but the answer to your question can be found in the Rail-Highway files in the SRHA archives.

Two things are important to understand: The first TTX cars did not have end-of-car cushioning, “pigs” were chained in place on the cars before hitches were adopted. That was the reason the Southern used CTTX flats equipped with Pullman-Standard “Protecto-frame” hardware welded to their decks. The P-F units had their own unit numbers and were owned by the Southern. The containers of the period did not have a standard mounting arrangement. (Flexi-Van containers were not used with the CTTX hardware, they were eventually converted to trailers by welding them to chassis so they could be used in PB service.)

In addition to providing a tray like arrangement that held the containers, the P-F hardware provided cushioning by using a hydraulic arrangement between the tray/container and the flat car deck. (Note Vol 1 of (must have) “The TTX Story” by the PRRH&TS for photos and description.) The P-F system meant the TTX cars could not be used for Circus style loading, thus the Southern designed and built container cranes.

Eventually, container mounting standards, EOC cushioning and retractible cushioned hitches were developed making the limited use CTTX cars and P-F system obsolete.

Ike

The photo is an under construction HO version of a P-F flat. The part on the deck is fixed, the container mounting sits above that and extends from side to side preventing circus style operation. Trailers were placed on the car by the cranes.

<IMG_2913.jpg>

On Apr 21, 2021, at 10:07 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote:

I would like for those of you who managed the early handling of containers on flatcars  (without truck wheels or frames) for information as to why Southern initially handled  loading and unloading  of containers using overhead cranes that startled single track facilities at major  terminals. 

Rod S


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 1:59 PM
To: MFCL@groups.io <MFCL@groups.io>; PassengerCarList@groups.io <PassengerCarList@groups.io>; main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Walthers Mark III & Mark IV Flexi-Van Flatcar Models
 
The “story” of the decline in passenger trains and development of railroad intermodal services (at least on the Southern Railway) is much more intertwined than I believe is typically understood. There is a considerable amount of information in the SRHA archives that details how the Southern wanted to get out of the passenger business but did not want to lose the revenues from the Post Office. The PO started the shift to regional distribution centers at the same time reduced passenger train schedules made using the railroads to move the mail less of an option.

Terminal mail handling facilities, and people, were a railroad expense passed along to the Post Office. The PO accepted the Southern’s offer to containerize mail “door to door” at PO facilities with drayage by the railroad. The process began with the Southern stopping passenger trains at its new intermodal terminals to pick up and drop off Southern owned containers on CTTX flat cars. As the Post Office developed its regional distribution system, passenger train schedules (not easily altered because of established departure and arrival times) became more of a problem for the mail, the PO asked if dedicated freight trains could be operated. (Bypassing passenger terminals with containerized mail was a serious revenue loss for the terminals.)

SR President D.W. Brosnan (known to hate passenger services and anything not seen as an efficient moneymaker), agreed even if it meant running very short trains. The railroad offered selected shippers the opportunity to ship trailers on those same trains and “intermodal” services in the Southeast began. (The first interline services (in the East) appear to have been between the Southern and the B&O, another user of CTTX flats. The PRR, via Pot Yard was less interested as they considered N-S traffic short-haul business.)

So…my question about Flexi-Vans. Were they promoted by the Post Office or did railroads simply see them as an effective way to carry containers? The Southern Flexi-Van flats were all sold (?) to the NYC and the Strick containers (not easily adapted for std PB) were welded to chassis to become trailers as the Southern expanded its “Rail-Highway” strategy

Ike









locked Re: Walthers Mark III & Mark IV Flexi-Van Flatcar Models

George Eichelberger
 

Rodney:

There must (!) be some videos of the Southern container cranes among the films SRHA received from NS a  number of years ago. (More videos than I remember, my Honda Accord was down on its springs with the load coming back from McDonough.)

Some were digitized and were/are available from Green Frog (well worth their price). Others have been put on DVDs but never sold because of the death of one of the GF folks…..another project we should re-start.

Ike

PS Plans cannot be finalized but our thought is to start archives work sessions with the June session.


On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote:

Thanks for the information.  I plan to be in Chattanooga at the next "work day" and will certainly look set aside some time to look through those files. I wonder if there are any short videos of the loading/unloading those containers.  As a boy I remember seeing many of those facilities from the windows of The Southerner. 


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 10:58 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>; ModelingTheSouthern@southernrailway.groups.io <ModelingTheSouthern@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Walthers Mark III & Mark IV Flexi-Van Flatcar Models
 
Rod:

I never managed handling COFC but the answer to your question can be found in the Rail-Highway files in the SRHA archives.

Two things are important to understand: The first TTX cars did not have end-of-car cushioning, “pigs” were chained in place on the cars before hitches were adopted. That was the reason the Southern used CTTX flats equipped with Pullman-Standard “Protecto-frame” hardware welded to their decks. The P-F units had their own unit numbers and were owned by the Southern. The containers of the period did not have a standard mounting arrangement. (Flexi-Van containers were not used with the CTTX hardware, they were eventually converted to trailers by welding them to chassis so they could be used in PB service.)

In addition to providing a tray like arrangement that held the containers, the P-F hardware provided cushioning by using a hydraulic arrangement between the tray/container and the flat car deck. (Note Vol 1 of (must have) “The TTX Story” by the PRRH&TS for photos and description.) The P-F system meant the TTX cars could not be used for Circus style loading, thus the Southern designed and built container cranes.

Eventually, container mounting standards, EOC cushioning and retractible cushioned hitches were developed making the limited use CTTX cars and P-F system obsolete.

Ike

The photo is an under construction HO version of a P-F flat. The part on the deck is fixed, the container mounting sits above that and extends from side to side preventing circus style operation. Trailers were placed on the car by the cranes.

<IMG_2913.jpg>

On Apr 21, 2021, at 10:07 PM, Rodney Shu <rodshu@...> wrote:

I would like for those of you who managed the early handling of containers on flatcars  (without truck wheels or frames) for information as to why Southern initially handled  loading and unloading  of containers using overhead cranes that startled single track facilities at major  terminals. 

Rod S


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 1:59 PM
To: MFCL@groups.io <MFCL@groups.io>; PassengerCarList@groups.io <PassengerCarList@groups.io>; main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Walthers Mark III & Mark IV Flexi-Van Flatcar Models
 
The “story” of the decline in passenger trains and development of railroad intermodal services (at least on the Southern Railway) is much more intertwined than I believe is typically understood. There is a considerable amount of information in the SRHA archives that details how the Southern wanted to get out of the passenger business but did not want to lose the revenues from the Post Office. The PO started the shift to regional distribution centers at the same time reduced passenger train schedules made using the railroads to move the mail less of an option.

Terminal mail handling facilities, and people, were a railroad expense passed along to the Post Office. The PO accepted the Southern’s offer to containerize mail “door to door” at PO facilities with drayage by the railroad. The process began with the Southern stopping passenger trains at its new intermodal terminals to pick up and drop off Southern owned containers on CTTX flat cars. As the Post Office developed its regional distribution system, passenger train schedules (not easily altered because of established departure and arrival times) became more of a problem for the mail, the PO asked if dedicated freight trains could be operated. (Bypassing passenger terminals with containerized mail was a serious revenue loss for the terminals.)

SR President D.W. Brosnan (known to hate passenger services and anything not seen as an efficient moneymaker), agreed even if it meant running very short trains. The railroad offered selected shippers the opportunity to ship trailers on those same trains and “intermodal” services in the Southeast began. (The first interline services (in the East) appear to have been between the Southern and the B&O, another user of CTTX flats. The PRR, via Pot Yard was less interested as they considered N-S traffic short-haul business.)

So…my question about Flexi-Vans. Were they promoted by the Post Office or did railroads simply see them as an effective way to carry containers? The Southern Flexi-Van flats were all sold (?) to the NYC and the Strick containers (not easily adapted for std PB) were welded to chassis to become trailers as the Southern expanded its “Rail-Highway” strategy

Ike








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