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locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Bill Schafer
 

"Remember the red ball point pens for time tickets?”

Oh, do we remember those red ball point pens! The ones that would leak in your shirt pocket. 

The story of those pens and their history is a tale that I have been meaning to write up for TIES Magazine, because those pens were special for a reason - their ink was specially formulated to reproduce well in the LDX system. 

If anyone remembers using those pens - or being required to use those pens - please send me your recollections. When did you use them? Why did you use them? Did you use them for all your writing needs or just for certain forms or functions? Your recollections will add greatly to the article. 

If there are enough responses, we may want to start a new thread. 

Thanks.

—Bill Schafer


On May 26, 2021, at 22:35, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Unaware of any.
CEA


On May 26, 2021, at 9:31 PM, Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...> wrote:

Carl are any of the conductor's books available on line?  I am really interested in any from the AGS since I lived along the AGS in Collinsville, AL.

locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Carl Ardrey
 

Unaware of any.
CEA


On May 26, 2021, at 9:31 PM, Byron Osborn <bosborn10@...> wrote:

Carl are any of the conductor's books available on line?  I am really interested in any from the AGS since I lived along the AGS in Collinsville, AL.

locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Byron Osborn
 

Carl are any of the conductor's books available on line?  I am really interested in any from the AGS since I lived along the AGS in Collinsville, AL.
locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Tom Holley
 

Hello, list.

Thank you for all the information and the forms. On MidSouth and KCS we had a wheel report, just like an NS consist now, but from the caboose up. It's funny how different railroads call the same thing different names. I did find in my collection a CG switch list serving as a wheel report for train 71. That was some great information y'all shared.

Carl, I remember the 612s from Coosa Pines well. Remember the red ball point pens for time tickets?

Thanks again, gentlemen.

Regards,

Tom Holley
locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Michael Young
 

I have something that although it says Train Book on the cover, is actually a Train Order Book covering orders issued on the Charleston Division between July 7-14, 1947.  At that time, dispatching over the "Peavine" (SB-Line) Kingville, SC to Marion, NC was still being done by telegraph.  Everything was written by fountain pen, and deciphering it is akin to unlocking the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Apparently at times they were writing very quickly.  I also have the ETT and rule book in effect at that time.  I always wanted to do a .pdf document compilation showing the original pages and their translation, with supporting references, and donate it to SRHA if they wanted to make it available as a reference/educational tool on how dispatching was done in those days.  Of course there are many engine numbers mentioned in the orders, which might be of interest too.
Mike Young


-----Original Message-----
From: A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...>
To: Jason Greene <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, May 26, 2021 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Blank Wheel Report

Attached are both blank and filled in versions from Conductor HF Snow circa 1934.  It was an official form 714, but was apparently called a Train Book.  However, needs must, and Conductor Snow also used a  "Car Book" that only had blue-ruled lines, like college notebook paper, bound into a pasteboard cover sized to fit a pocket (about 10" tall, but only a 4-5 inches wide when closed).   I also have examples of the engineer time/delay books, which are more (to my mind) like checkbooks or police ticket books--they have a bound stub with perforations to detach a report for double bookkeeping.

A proper history of the evolution of paper work and later computer work of tracking trains and cars and shipments would probably fill a 10-12 volume.  The Southern wasn't just innovative in terms of freight car and MoW equipment.  They did all kinds of interesting and innovative things around subjects that might put the usual "railfan" to sleep, but is certainly of historical interest.

Dave

Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 7:42:17 PM, you wrote:


Could you share with us all and Tom explain how they work?

Jason Greene


On May 25, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Tom Holley via groups.io <th498@...> wrote:

Hello, Warren.

Yes, that is exactly the form I'm looking for. A TA&G form would be fine, and I sure would appreciate it.

Regards,

Tom Holley



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Attached are both blank and filled in versions from Conductor HF Snow circa 1934.  It was an official form 714, but was apparently called a Train Book.  However, needs must, and Conductor Snow also used a  "Car Book" that only had blue-ruled lines, like college notebook paper, bound into a pasteboard cover sized to fit a pocket (about 10" tall, but only a 4-5 inches wide when closed).   I also have examples of the engineer time/delay books, which are more (to my mind) like checkbooks or police ticket books--they have a bound stub with perforations to detach a report for double bookkeeping.

A proper history of the evolution of paper work and later computer work of tracking trains and cars and shipments would probably fill a 10-12 volume.  The Southern wasn't just innovative in terms of freight car and MoW equipment.  They did all kinds of interesting and innovative things around subjects that might put the usual "railfan" to sleep, but is certainly of historical interest.

Dave

Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 7:42:17 PM, you wrote:


 Could you share with us all and Tom explain how they work?

Jason Greene


On May 25, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Tom Holley via groups.io <th498@...> wrote:

 Hello, Warren.

Yes, that is exactly the form I'm looking for. A TA&G form would be fine, and I sure would appreciate it.

Regards,

Tom Holley



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

PDF
SOU-Form-714-circa-1934.pdf
PDF
Trainbook-00-19340104a.pdf

locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Carl Ardrey
 

I hired out on the AGS in 1978 and we never saw a wheel report.  All we had was a stack of waybills and a block consist.  Hand written switch lists on the locals.  Local conductors had to fill out form 612's for each industry to show pull/place times.
CEA

On 05/26/2021 1:27 PM Michael Young via groups.io <michaeljy@...> wrote:
 
 
It's been almost 50 years, so some details might be wrong, but here is what I remember from "sitting in" at Andrews Yard (Columbia SC) in 1972.  Computers were just beginning to be used, and only trains 156/157, the "Bean Train" from Savannah to Pot Yard, received a computer-generated consist via teletype.  A Block Consist form was completed to go with it, I'm attaching a copy of one for 157 in December 1972. I do not recall ever hearing the term "Wheel Report" ever being used by anyone at any time, but that's not to say it wasn't, I just don't recall ever hearing it.  All other freight trains leaving Columbia received consists that were handwritten on regular Switch Lists.  I have a stack of blank SOU Switch Lists somewhere in my archives.  After completion by yard clerks, they were sent to the Yardmaster for review.  I was in the tower one day when the lists for the local working the "C&G" (as the V-Line to Greenville was known). It was the biggest stack I had ever seen for a train, and I commented to YM Stokes that I was unaware there was that much business on that line. He responded that that was the hardest working job out of Columbia, that they always had a heavy train with lots of pickups and set-offs to do, and that they'd be lucky if they could complete it all without going on the law.  Of course, almost all of the V-Line is gone today.  After I made the fateful decision to hire out with Amtrak in 1973, I became familiar with SCL operations.  They had a standard one-page form, the "Conductor's Handled & Delay Report," which conductors turned in at the end of their runs, and which I sometimes heard them refer to as a "Wheel Report."  It was a combination form used by both passenger and freight conductors, and I probably read hundreds of them to dispatchers over the years, all from passenger trains.  It did not list any cars in the consist, only engine numbers, number of pickups/set-offs and total cars handled, including tonnage (for freight trains) and passenger counts when applicable.  It also listed any en route delays with explanations, and that was the only thing dispatchers were interested in for passenger trains.  I did overhear SCL operators reporting freight trains and they included car counts and tonnage.  Ninety percent of the time, those forms were referred to as "Delay Reports" by passenger conductors, although occasionally one would say, "Here's my Wheel Report."  But I never saw any form on either Southern or SCL that was officially identified as a "Wheel Report."  If this is all TMI, I apologize, but I post to the group so rarely, I tend to get carried away, LOL.
Mike Young

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Holley via groups.io <th498@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 26, 2021 1:12 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Blank Wheel Report
Hello Jason and list.

This is an explanation of a wheel report from the GNHS:

Before computers a wheel report was simply a high-class train list. It was a compendium of all cars handled by a particular crew between that crews' initial and final terminal. On most roads when the train got to a terminal, the conductor would file one copy of the wheel report with the yardmaster (or actually with his office staff) and another copy with all the waybills for the cars would be delivered to the connecting conductor. The connecting conductor would write a new wheel report for his crew, and so on. Specific practice varied from road to road but this is an overview in general of how it was handled. At designated terminals a clerk would take each wheel report and "bible" every car in the train - enter it in a large book with column headings for car numbers running from tens to thousands. For example NYC 200138 would be entered (depending on road) either under "2001" column or under "38" column. That way if somebody wanted a trace on the car it could be found, and information passed along that it went through terminal Podunk at 4am Dec 21.

This explains it better than I ever could.

Regards,

Tom Holley

locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Michael Young
 

It's been almost 50 years, so some details might be wrong, but here is what I remember from "sitting in" at Andrews Yard (Columbia SC) in 1972.  Computers were just beginning to be used, and only trains 156/157, the "Bean Train" from Savannah to Pot Yard, received a computer-generated consist via teletype.  A Block Consist form was completed to go with it, I'm attaching a copy of one for 157 in December 1972. I do not recall ever hearing the term "Wheel Report" ever being used by anyone at any time, but that's not to say it wasn't, I just don't recall ever hearing it.  All other freight trains leaving Columbia received consists that were handwritten on regular Switch Lists.  I have a stack of blank SOU Switch Lists somewhere in my archives.  After completion by yard clerks, they were sent to the Yardmaster for review.  I was in the tower one day when the lists for the local working the "C&G" (as the V-Line to Greenville was known). It was the biggest stack I had ever seen for a train, and I commented to YM Stokes that I was unaware there was that much business on that line. He responded that that was the hardest working job out of Columbia, that they always had a heavy train with lots of pickups and set-offs to do, and that they'd be lucky if they could complete it all without going on the law.  Of course, almost all of the V-Line is gone today.  After I made the fateful decision to hire out with Amtrak in 1973, I became familiar with SCL operations.  They had a standard one-page form, the "Conductor's Handled & Delay Report," which conductors turned in at the end of their runs, and which I sometimes heard them refer to as a "Wheel Report."  It was a combination form used by both passenger and freight conductors, and I probably read hundreds of them to dispatchers over the years, all from passenger trains.  It did not list any cars in the consist, only engine numbers, number of pickups/set-offs and total cars handled, including tonnage (for freight trains) and passenger counts when applicable.  It also listed any en route delays with explanations, and that was the only thing dispatchers were interested in for passenger trains.  I did overhear SCL operators reporting freight trains and they included car counts and tonnage.  Ninety percent of the time, those forms were referred to as "Delay Reports" by passenger conductors, although occasionally one would say, "Here's my Wheel Report."  But I never saw any form on either Southern or SCL that was officially identified as a "Wheel Report."  If this is all TMI, I apologize, but I post to the group so rarely, I tend to get carried away, LOL.
Mike Young


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Holley via groups.io <th498@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 26, 2021 1:12 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Blank Wheel Report

Hello Jason and list.

This is an explanation of a wheel report from the GNHS:

Before computers a wheel report was simply a high-class train list. It was a compendium of all cars handled by a particular crew between that crews' initial and final terminal. On most roads when the train got to a terminal, the conductor would file one copy of the wheel report with the yardmaster (or actually with his office staff) and another copy with all the waybills for the cars would be delivered to the connecting conductor. The connecting conductor would write a new wheel report for his crew, and so on. Specific practice varied from road to road but this is an overview in general of how it was handled. At designated terminals a clerk would take each wheel report and "bible" every car in the train - enter it in a large book with column headings for car numbers running from tens to thousands. For example NYC 200138 would be entered (depending on road) either under "2001" column or under "38" column. That way if somebody wanted a trace on the car it could be found, and information passed along that it went through terminal Podunk at 4am Dec 21.

This explains it better than I ever could.

Regards,

Tom Holley

locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Carl Ardrey
 

On SOU conductors used a book issued by company to record their wheel reports.  We have many copies of these books, with entries, from the ‘50’s in the archives.
CEA


On May 26, 2021, at 12:12 PM, Tom Holley via groups.io <th498@...> wrote:

Hello Jason and list.

This is an explanation of a wheel report from the GNHS:

Before computers a wheel report was simply a high-class train list. It was a compendium of all cars handled by a particular crew between that crews' initial and final terminal. On most roads when the train got to a terminal, the conductor would file one copy of the wheel report with the yardmaster (or actually with his office staff) and another copy with all the waybills for the cars would be delivered to the connecting conductor. The connecting conductor would write a new wheel report for his crew, and so on. Specific practice varied from road to road but this is an overview in general of how it was handled. At designated terminals a clerk would take each wheel report and "bible" every car in the train - enter it in a large book with column headings for car numbers running from tens to thousands. For example NYC 200138 would be entered (depending on road) either under "2001" column or under "38" column. That way if somebody wanted a trace on the car it could be found, and information passed along that it went through terminal Podunk at 4am Dec 21.

This explains it better than I ever could.

Regards,

Tom Holley

locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Tom Holley
 

Hello Jason and list.

This is an explanation of a wheel report from the GNHS:

Before computers a wheel report was simply a high-class train list. It was a compendium of all cars handled by a particular crew between that crews' initial and final terminal. On most roads when the train got to a terminal, the conductor would file one copy of the wheel report with the yardmaster (or actually with his office staff) and another copy with all the waybills for the cars would be delivered to the connecting conductor. The connecting conductor would write a new wheel report for his crew, and so on. Specific practice varied from road to road but this is an overview in general of how it was handled. At designated terminals a clerk would take each wheel report and "bible" every car in the train - enter it in a large book with column headings for car numbers running from tens to thousands. For example NYC 200138 would be entered (depending on road) either under "2001" column or under "38" column. That way if somebody wanted a trace on the car it could be found, and information passed along that it went through terminal Podunk at 4am Dec 21.

This explains it better than I ever could.

Regards,

Tom Holley
locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Jason Greene
 

Could you share with us all and Tom explain how they work?

Jason Greene 

On May 25, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Tom Holley via groups.io <th498@...> wrote:

Hello, Warren.

Yes, that is exactly the form I'm looking for. A TA&G form would be fine, and I sure would appreciate it.

Regards,

Tom Holley

locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Tom Holley
 

Hello, Warren.

Yes, that is exactly the form I'm looking for. A TA&G form would be fine, and I sure would appreciate it.

Regards,

Tom Holley
locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

Warren Stephens
 

Tom, You know I am an airline employee and I have a very basic understanding of railroading. So I have two questions. Firstly is this a standard form that is used to hand write or to type in the cars in a given train? Second question, If so, does it have to be a Southern form? If I understand what you are looking for, I believe I have this type of form for TA&G.

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TA&G freak

On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 04:03:16 PM EDT, Tom Holley via groups.io <th498@...> wrote:


Hello, list.

Does anyone here have a blank wheel report that you could scan and email to me?

Regards,

Tom Holley th498@...

locked Blank Wheel Report

Tom Holley
 

Hello, list.

Does anyone here have a blank wheel report that you could scan and email to me?

Regards,

Tom Holley th498@...
locked SOU 3659

Jim King
 

Here are 2 grainy shots from the late Howard Ameling’s collection showing 3659 in a freight consist in 1973.  Maybe it was being forwarded to a new assignment or was being returned “somewhere” after shopping?  Sure looks clean.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 
locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

George Eichelberger
 

I hope we can schedule an archives work session (open to vaccinated people) for the third weekend in June (Fri-Sat, 6-17/18) . We’ll post information here and on the SRHA.net home page. I expect we will have a few people at the archives that Thursday if someone wants to make a three-day visit to the archives and TVRM.

Someone can pull the Hayne Shop file on Southern 3659 (?) and we can see its history and disposition there and on its maintenance card (if it remained after the car was gone.)

Ike



On May 24, 2021, at 10:09 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I think it is a case of a car being retired, but not scrapped, and then brought back with a new car number in the excursion fleet. My March 1965 Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment shows no such car as 3659 on the roster. In fact it showed no CNO&TP heavyweight coaches still running. If we can find out what the previous number was, I should be able to trace it back to when it was built and by whom.

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, May 24, 2021, 09:38:32 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


I don't believe it was remembered. It is possible it was not being used in excursion service by that time, and in fact might have already been on loan to TVRM.


On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 9:11 PM, Artist794 Workshop

Thank you for the information lead!!  please let me know if you find those records as well, much appreciated!!.  I spent some time this afternoon looking at CNOTP photos online and was able to find some of the car.  

I do have a question regarding the wreak in 1986. Based on reports I've found online there only were 3 Southern cars on that train and none had the number 3659. Could it be that the car was renumbered? or is it possible that this was a different car and not involved with the wreak? Prior to today I had not heard about the wreak and again spent some time doing some quick research this evening. 

Regardless thank you, this was a great start and helped fill in some blanks.

Chris Zygmunt
Essex, CT
locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

C J Wyatt
 

That is a good piece of information. I wonder if the 3659 has the original number stamped somewhere on the car?

Jack

On Monday, May 24, 2021, 11:43:00 PM EDT, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:


The 3659 appears in the March 1971 Register as a Southern car, but is not shown in the March 1969 Register.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt
Sent: May 24, 2021 10:09 PM
To: "main@SouthernRailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

I think it is a case of a car being retired, but not scrapped, and then brought back with a new car number in the excursion fleet. My March 1965 Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment shows no such car as 3659 on the roster. In fact it showed no CNO&TP heavyweight coaches still running. If we can find out what the previous number was, I should be able to trace it back to when it was built and by whom.

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, May 24, 2021, 09:38:32 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


I don't believe it was remembered. It is possible it was not being used in excursion service by that time, and in fact might have already been on loan to TVRM.


On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 9:11 PM, Artist794 Workshop
<artist794workshop@...> wrote:

Thank you for the information lead!!  please let me know if you find those records as well, much appreciated!!.  I spent some time this afternoon looking at CNOTP photos online and was able to find some of the car.  

I do have a question regarding the wreak in 1986. Based on reports I've found online there only were 3 Southern cars on that train and none had the number 3659. Could it be that the car was renumbered? or is it possible that this was a different car and not involved with the wreak? Prior to today I had not heard about the wreak and again spent some time doing some quick research this evening. 

Regardless thank you, this was a great start and helped fill in some blanks.

Chris Zygmunt
Essex, CT
locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
 

The 3659 appears in the March 1971 Register as a Southern car, but is not shown in the March 1969 Register.

Bob Grabarek

-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt
Sent: May 24, 2021 10:09 PM
To: "main@SouthernRailway.groups.io"
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

I think it is a case of a car being retired, but not scrapped, and then brought back with a new car number in the excursion fleet. My March 1965 Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment shows no such car as 3659 on the roster. In fact it showed no CNO&TP heavyweight coaches still running. If we can find out what the previous number was, I should be able to trace it back to when it was built and by whom.

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, May 24, 2021, 09:38:32 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


I don't believe it was remembered. It is possible it was not being used in excursion service by that time, and in fact might have already been on loan to TVRM.


On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 9:11 PM, Artist794 Workshop
<artist794workshop@...> wrote:

Thank you for the information lead!!  please let me know if you find those records as well, much appreciated!!.  I spent some time this afternoon looking at CNOTP photos online and was able to find some of the car.  

I do have a question regarding the wreak in 1986. Based on reports I've found online there only were 3 Southern cars on that train and none had the number 3659. Could it be that the car was renumbered? or is it possible that this was a different car and not involved with the wreak? Prior to today I had not heard about the wreak and again spent some time doing some quick research this evening. 

Regardless thank you, this was a great start and helped fill in some blanks.

Chris Zygmunt
Essex, CT
locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

C J Wyatt
 

I think it is a case of a car being retired, but not scrapped, and then brought back with a new car number in the excursion fleet. My March 1965 Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment shows no such car as 3659 on the roster. In fact it showed no CNO&TP heavyweight coaches still running. If we can find out what the previous number was, I should be able to trace it back to when it was built and by whom.

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, May 24, 2021, 09:38:32 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


I don't believe it was remembered. It is possible it was not being used in excursion service by that time, and in fact might have already been on loan to TVRM.


On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 9:11 PM, Artist794 Workshop
<artist794workshop@...> wrote:

Thank you for the information lead!!  please let me know if you find those records as well, much appreciated!!.  I spent some time this afternoon looking at CNOTP photos online and was able to find some of the car.  

I do have a question regarding the wreak in 1986. Based on reports I've found online there only were 3 Southern cars on that train and none had the number 3659. Could it be that the car was renumbered? or is it possible that this was a different car and not involved with the wreak? Prior to today I had not heard about the wreak and again spent some time doing some quick research this evening. 

Regardless thank you, this was a great start and helped fill in some blanks.

Chris Zygmunt
Essex, CT
locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

TIM ANDREWS
 

I don't believe it was remembered. It is possible it was not being used in excursion service by that time, and in fact might have already been on loan to TVRM.


On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 9:11 PM, Artist794 Workshop
<artist794workshop@...> wrote:

Thank you for the information lead!!  please let me know if you find those records as well, much appreciated!!.  I spent some time this afternoon looking at CNOTP photos online and was able to find some of the car.  

I do have a question regarding the wreak in 1986. Based on reports I've found online there only were 3 Southern cars on that train and none had the number 3659. Could it be that the car was renumbered? or is it possible that this was a different car and not involved with the wreak? Prior to today I had not heard about the wreak and again spent some time doing some quick research this evening. 

Regardless thank you, this was a great start and helped fill in some blanks.

Chris Zygmunt
Essex, CT
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