Date   

locked Re: From the PCL

George Eichelberger
 

Andy:

It’s another of the excellent “groups.io” forums….PassengerCarList@groups.io.

Ike


On Jun 6, 2021, at 9:51 AM, aramsay18 <aramsay37@...> wrote:

What/where is the PCL? Thanks in advance.

Andy Ramsay
Berryville VA

On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 9:21 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


All:

This just posted on the PCL…

Ike



locked Re: From the PCL

aramsay18
 

What/where is the PCL? Thanks in advance.

Andy Ramsay
Berryville VA

On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 9:21 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


All:

This just posted on the PCL…

Ike


Re: Southern Ry modernized coaches 
From: Nancy Boots
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2021 11:15:52 PDT 

Time to add in my nickel (I expect change for my 2 cents) on the information I know on the SOUTHERN 1000 series modernized coaches.

In the days before Amtrak started the NECIP and bumped the speeds up on the Corridor, the Southnern would send the 1000 series coaches up to New York on the Crescent. Probably used them for large group travel as overflow cars. The cars came up as a head end move on trains 172 and 173, a through Boston - Washington run. 

The road crew that brought the train up would cut the Southern cars (from Birmingham or New Orleans / Los Angeles) off in Penn Station and take them to Sunnyside Yard. The New Haven crew would be ready with another engine to take the remainder of the train to New Haven for the diesel change. Usually the Southern cars would lay-over in the yard for the next day move south on 173, being a head end add-on and engine change of the arriving Boston section.

However, when we got the 1000 series (mainly 1030 and 1040 series numbers as I remember, more later) they would be brought back to Penn Station and added that night to #67 Night Owl to deadhead back to the Southern Rwy. Since the connection to the Piedmont was tight, they probably went on the Crescent that night.
One such event happened  back in 1974, I was going up to Cumberland, MD for a weekend. The only way to connect to the Blue Ridge (ex-C&O coach and coach-dinette) was to take the Owl down to Washington. I had the good luck of that being a night we had to deadhead the extra Southern Rwy cars back. I grabbed a pair of seats in one of the cars (SR 1041) and by the time we were added to 67 and started rolling, I was in a good sleep. The 6 wheel trucks made up for more than a smooth ride. 

The seats were similar to the 800 series streamline coaches, so must have been an upgrade when the cars were rebuilt. All the coaches on the Eastern railroads were NOT really overnight cars like the Western railroads had. Most all were a higher capacity usually upwards of 50 seats AND NO EASTERN RAILROAD CARS EVER HAD LEG RESTS. Overnighters on things like Florida and Chicago trains "had to make do" without or only the small "pigeon perch" foot rest bar on the seat ahead. In fact the "leg rest horror" was brought to light by the ire of railfans when Penn Central bought 6 former Union Pacific 4400 series coaches in 1970.  They were used on the Broadway Limited since PC had no good overnight type coaches after the PRR P-85B cars went to junk. Of course, PC, not knowing what "they" were, promptly REMOVED all the leg rests from under the seats, so passengers were forced to endure an uncomfortable cramped up ride instead of being able to stretch out. Of course, "some" divisions, when they changed train crews, "just happened to  be" overnight, and some of the Conductors being scummer low-life's would put ALL the coach lights on, and bounce people around to wake them and check their tickets..........Yes, PC was one of "them" who fit what one Information Booth clerk in Penn Station told a customer..."You don't like the train service, Greyhound Bus Terminal is at 8th Ave & 42nd Street"

The Southern heavyweights stopped after 1975, as most were in the Steam Excursion Program, so when extra cars were needed on the Crescent, we would see the cars of Central of Georgia (the Man O'War and some Nancy Hanks cars) that Southern had taken over from their roster. I looked at the pictures I had of the cars and all taken in the same 6 month time period...cars 1035, 1039, 1040 and 1044 all had friction bearing trucks, while my shot of 1034 is roller bearing t6rucks. There may have been others, or trucks swapped around, but these are ones I know of.

Doug





locked From the PCL

George Eichelberger
 



All:

This just posted on the PCL…

Ike


Re: Southern Ry modernized coaches 
From: Nancy Boots
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2021 11:15:52 PDT 

Time to add in my nickel (I expect change for my 2 cents) on the information I know on the SOUTHERN 1000 series modernized coaches.

In the days before Amtrak started the NECIP and bumped the speeds up on the Corridor, the Southnern would send the 1000 series coaches up to New York on the Crescent. Probably used them for large group travel as overflow cars. The cars came up as a head end move on trains 172 and 173, a through Boston - Washington run. 

The road crew that brought the train up would cut the Southern cars (from Birmingham or New Orleans / Los Angeles) off in Penn Station and take them to Sunnyside Yard. The New Haven crew would be ready with another engine to take the remainder of the train to New Haven for the diesel change. Usually the Southern cars would lay-over in the yard for the next day move south on 173, being a head end add-on and engine change of the arriving Boston section.

However, when we got the 1000 series (mainly 1030 and 1040 series numbers as I remember, more later) they would be brought back to Penn Station and added that night to #67 Night Owl to deadhead back to the Southern Rwy. Since the connection to the Piedmont was tight, they probably went on the Crescent that night.
One such event happened  back in 1974, I was going up to Cumberland, MD for a weekend. The only way to connect to the Blue Ridge (ex-C&O coach and coach-dinette) was to take the Owl down to Washington. I had the good luck of that being a night we had to deadhead the extra Southern Rwy cars back. I grabbed a pair of seats in one of the cars (SR 1041) and by the time we were added to 67 and started rolling, I was in a good sleep. The 6 wheel trucks made up for more than a smooth ride. 

The seats were similar to the 800 series streamline coaches, so must have been an upgrade when the cars were rebuilt. All the coaches on the Eastern railroads were NOT really overnight cars like the Western railroads had. Most all were a higher capacity usually upwards of 50 seats AND NO EASTERN RAILROAD CARS EVER HAD LEG RESTS. Overnighters on things like Florida and Chicago trains "had to make do" without or only the small "pigeon perch" foot rest bar on the seat ahead. In fact the "leg rest horror" was brought to light by the ire of railfans when Penn Central bought 6 former Union Pacific 4400 series coaches in 1970.  They were used on the Broadway Limited since PC had no good overnight type coaches after the PRR P-85B cars went to junk. Of course, PC, not knowing what "they" were, promptly REMOVED all the leg rests from under the seats, so passengers were forced to endure an uncomfortable cramped up ride instead of being able to stretch out. Of course, "some" divisions, when they changed train crews, "just happened to  be" overnight, and some of the Conductors being scummer low-life's would put ALL the coach lights on, and bounce people around to wake them and check their tickets..........Yes, PC was one of "them" who fit what one Information Booth clerk in Penn Station told a customer..."You don't like the train service, Greyhound Bus Terminal is at 8th Ave & 42nd Street"

The Southern heavyweights stopped after 1975, as most were in the Steam Excursion Program, so when extra cars were needed on the Crescent, we would see the cars of Central of Georgia (the Man O'War and some Nancy Hanks cars) that Southern had taken over from their roster. I looked at the pictures I had of the cars and all taken in the same 6 month time period...cars 1035, 1039, 1040 and 1044 all had friction bearing trucks, while my shot of 1034 is roller bearing t6rucks. There may have been others, or trucks swapped around, but these are ones I know of.

Doug





locked Livestock Shipment on the Southern Railway in the 1920s

George Eichelberger
 

At one time, the Southern owned and moved a considerable number of stock cars. In addition to cattle, several hundred cars of horses and mules were sent to Pinners Point, VA for export to Spain immediately after WWI. Although there were people promoting the business inside the Southern, costs to handle, feed and deal with animals that died in transit made it a marginally profitable operation. (Fairfax Harrison raised and shipped cattle from his Virginia farm but did not think the revenue potential warranted large investments in facilities around the system.)

In June, 1922, he was asked, and denied, money to add pens at Ashburn, GA. The attached is one of the follow-on documents sent to him.

This is certainly an "unknown" topic that bears research and possible a TIES article? (The next work session at the archives at TVRM is June 18&19. Anyone (vaccinated!) is welcome to visit and help. Contact archives@... for Information or to let us know to expect you.

Ike


locked Re: Knoxville Terminal Zone Map

John
 

Tim:


Thanks for the additional info on the codes and zone maps.  I would be interested in seeing the copy for Chattanooga if you can find it. 

To go further into the subject of using another area of the former Southern to illustrate, I have several industry work lists from the late 1980s from Chamblee, GA, that list the codes.  I assume they were generated out of TIPS.  To illustrate, here's an example for the P05 turn that went from Chamblee to Duluth.  In this example all of the industries were in the "R" Zone.   It has the times each industry was worked as well as a couple of additional cars that were pulled from Dixie Plywood (R65) notated.   It also includes notes if there are specific instructions for working an industry.  I assume the system that replaced TIPS (TYES?) in the early 2000s generates a similar type work list but haven't seen one to confirm.


John


locked Re: Knoxville Terminal Zone Map

TIM ANDREWS
 

Chattanooga had/has a similar zone map.  Someday I will find my copy of the hand drawn map which had an 8 1/2 x 11 page for each zone and that showed each customer, the code, and dots representing the number of car spots they had at that location. The alpha numeric codes are still used roday and they have remained the same for a given track even if the name of the customer has changed.

The codes are often used in conversations replacing the name of the customer with the code "(We've got three N37s and an N40").  These are sometimes also called class or customer codes by the crews. Tyner and Jersey are  "N" and then the individual customers like VW at Tyner(N3552), TVRM at Jersey (N36), Allied Metal at Jersey (N37) or TAG at Tyner (N3551) follow with either two or four numbers.
 

On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 12:06:53 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


John:

There is quite a bit of information in the SRHA archives on TIPS. It is usually filed (digitally) with the Yard name rather than as a comprehensive TIPS file. In addition to what we know about now, there is an entire table/corner in the archives that apparently includes more TIPS info to be IDed. If someone is interested, they can help sort through material at the up coming work session June 18th and 19th. (Contact us if you plan to come: archives@....)

We moved literally tons of hardware and documents to the new archives (Good riddance Kennesaw Museum!). As more comes in, we will always need to sort through it.

Re: A map for Asheville. I have accumulated a lot of Asheville material over the years (my layout IS Asheville) but I have not seen much on area industries. By the time TIPs came along, there were virtually no rail served industries in Asheville. There are abandoned sidings in several places (E. Asheville is most interesting) to see. Into the 60s and 70s, there were a few on the Craggy, some steel and scrap at the west and east ends of the yard but not much else. The yard only existed after John Sevier Yard was built because of the A&S down Saluda and Canton.

Ike



On Jun 5, 2021, at 11:20 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

John:

Very interesting and informative. My question now is would anyone have that for Asheville????

Mike 


On Jun 5, 2021, at 10:49, John via groups.io <jcurtrig@...> wrote:


The recent question on Wheel Reports motivated me to go through some of the paperwork I’ve collected through the years on operations.  One item that might be of interest to others on the list is a copy of a Terminal Zone Map for Knoxville.   It’s from the early 1980s and my understanding is that it was created as part of installing the TIPS Industrial Car Control System.  The terminal was divided into zones and each customer was a assigned an alpha numeric code.  TIPS was expanded by NS to cover the former N&W territory in the late 1980s.

Unfortunately, my copy only has the zone maps and not the corresponding listing for what customer each code represented.   Being a little familiar with Knoxville, I can guess at what some of the codes are.  For example, B03 should be White Lilly Foods. 

I've uploaded a copy to my Dropbox.  Anyone interested can access at the link.

Knoxville Terminal Zone Map

I’m curious if the archives or others might have more information on the TIPS installation and zone maps for other terminals.   Might make an interesting TIES article.

John


locked Re: Knoxville Terminal Zone Map

John
 

Good to hear the archives has lots of information on TIPS.   I don't think I can get down to the June work session but it is on my list to get down to Chattanooga at some point and attend one.  The last time I was at the archives was Kennesaw back in 2011 to do some research so I'm due for another visit.

In the meantime, if someone could find the TIPS customer list for Knoxville that shows which code goes with which customer and share it would be appreciated.

John


locked Re: Knoxville Terminal Zone Map

George Eichelberger
 

John:

There is quite a bit of information in the SRHA archives on TIPS. It is usually filed (digitally) with the Yard name rather than as a comprehensive TIPS file. In addition to what we know about now, there is an entire table/corner in the archives that apparently includes more TIPS info to be IDed. If someone is interested, they can help sort through material at the up coming work session June 18th and 19th. (Contact us if you plan to come: archives@....)

We moved literally tons of hardware and documents to the new archives (Good riddance Kennesaw Museum!). As more comes in, we will always need to sort through it.

Re: A map for Asheville. I have accumulated a lot of Asheville material over the years (my layout IS Asheville) but I have not seen much on area industries. By the time TIPs came along, there were virtually no rail served industries in Asheville. There are abandoned sidings in several places (E. Asheville is most interesting) to see. Into the 60s and 70s, there were a few on the Craggy, some steel and scrap at the west and east ends of the yard but not much else. The yard only existed after John Sevier Yard was built because of the A&S down Saluda and Canton.

Ike



On Jun 5, 2021, at 11:20 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

John:

Very interesting and informative. My question now is would anyone have that for Asheville????

Mike 


On Jun 5, 2021, at 10:49, John via groups.io <jcurtrig@...> wrote:


The recent question on Wheel Reports motivated me to go through some of the paperwork I’ve collected through the years on operations.  One item that might be of interest to others on the list is a copy of a Terminal Zone Map for Knoxville.   It’s from the early 1980s and my understanding is that it was created as part of installing the TIPS Industrial Car Control System.  The terminal was divided into zones and each customer was a assigned an alpha numeric code.  TIPS was expanded by NS to cover the former N&W territory in the late 1980s.

Unfortunately, my copy only has the zone maps and not the corresponding listing for what customer each code represented.   Being a little familiar with Knoxville, I can guess at what some of the codes are.  For example, B03 should be White Lilly Foods. 

I've uploaded a copy to my Dropbox.  Anyone interested can access at the link.

Knoxville Terminal Zone Map

I’m curious if the archives or others might have more information on the TIPS installation and zone maps for other terminals.   Might make an interesting TIES article.

John


locked Re: Knoxville Terminal Zone Map

Michael Roderick
 

John:

Very interesting and informative. My question now is would anyone have that for Asheville????

Mike 


On Jun 5, 2021, at 10:49, John via groups.io <jcurtrig@...> wrote:



The recent question on Wheel Reports motivated me to go through some of the paperwork I’ve collected through the years on operations.  One item that might be of interest to others on the list is a copy of a Terminal Zone Map for Knoxville.   It’s from the early 1980s and my understanding is that it was created as part of installing the TIPS Industrial Car Control System.  The terminal was divided into zones and each customer was a assigned an alpha numeric code.  TIPS was expanded by NS to cover the former N&W territory in the late 1980s.

Unfortunately, my copy only has the zone maps and not the corresponding listing for what customer each code represented.   Being a little familiar with Knoxville, I can guess at what some of the codes are.  For example, B03 should be White Lilly Foods. 

I've uploaded a copy to my Dropbox.  Anyone interested can access at the link.

Knoxville Terminal Zone Map


I’m curious if the archives or others might have more information on the TIPS installation and zone maps for other terminals.   Might make an interesting TIES article.


John


locked Knoxville Terminal Zone Map

John
 

The recent question on Wheel Reports motivated me to go through some of the paperwork I’ve collected through the years on operations.  One item that might be of interest to others on the list is a copy of a Terminal Zone Map for Knoxville.   It’s from the early 1980s and my understanding is that it was created as part of installing the TIPS Industrial Car Control System.  The terminal was divided into zones and each customer was a assigned an alpha numeric code.  TIPS was expanded by NS to cover the former N&W territory in the late 1980s.

Unfortunately, my copy only has the zone maps and not the corresponding listing for what customer each code represented.   Being a little familiar with Knoxville, I can guess at what some of the codes are.  For example, B03 should be White Lilly Foods. 

I've uploaded a copy to my Dropbox.  Anyone interested can access at the link.

Knoxville Terminal Zone Map


I’m curious if the archives or others might have more information on the TIPS installation and zone maps for other terminals.   Might make an interesting TIES article.


John


locked Re: Blank Wheel Report

John
 

Mike:

 

Thanks for the information and sharing of the scan of the Block Consist.   I have a few of these from the early 1990s for trains out of Inman Yard.  Still were using the same format and form number although it shows a revision date 5/80.

John


locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks,that would be great as I went through the archives, all the coach files and couldn’t find a clue, but my wife says that about me I look but don’t see and listen but don’t hear.
Probably a husband thing
Let me know that would fill a hole in my puzzle 
Thanks
Fenton 


On Jun 3, 2021, at 12:52 PM, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


I'll try to run down to the archives and look in the next few days to see what I can find.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 12:34:56 PM EDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


I'm probably not an in depth researcher as y'all but I was trying to put together a book on the SR smooth side rebuilds and one mystery I could never find was what coach did the Hayne shop use to make into new partitioned, smooth side coach No.1209.
If you know or have the data on this conversion please share.
Thanks
Fenton

On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Tim, I recall us talking about it years ago. If I remember, you had a lot of information on dispositions and my strength was the early Southern Railway passenger cars. I still would like to do something, but my research priorities are topics which have more general relevance. However I still get excited (like solving a puzzle) if I find out something new concerning cars from predecessor lines. We need to get someone with database expertise to help us get this thing set up.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 11:22:47 AM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


I also worked on an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars. my last print out came from dBase IV and is dated over twenty years ago.  It would seem that between the archives and some work done by individuals we should be able to take another stab at it using the tools that are available now.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 09:44:22 AM EDT, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


Tim, thanks for finding the answer. Years ago when I was trying to create an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars, a similar renumbering incident, number 1367 in your list, bedeviled me. The original Southern 1367 was a coach built by Pullman in 1909. Therefore I refer to the excursion car as No. 1367 (2nd).

Jack Wyatt 

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 10:12:09 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


From the SRHA archives today comes the following from the car maintenance record for car 3659 and dated 11/1/1966
<1622670693242blob.jpg>


Using the diagram book from Another Man's Treasure we see that the car was originally 1632 which fits the series reported by Jack Wyatt.  According to Diagram 30-F-38 the car was built by Bethlehem 1924 was air conditioned in May of 1939 had Green Frieze Pat. 60 upholstery, the "8-3 interior color scheme and the tile #101 and 107 aisle stripe". It weighted 149,600 pounds.  From the diagram it had walk over seats and seated 72.  Although the date is not given on diagram 31-F-51 dated 12/7/48 the car received reclining seats and reconfigured restrooms and was renumbered 1083.  The seating was dropped to 48 seats.  26 cars received this conversion, some at Hayne and some at Chattanooga.

Seeing as how the seating was raised to 72 reclining seats and the restrooms were removed, we would assume that took place around 1966.

It is interesting to note that the 1058 on the list above is now at TVRM and still has the large restrooms and lower seating capacity.

I will keep digging through stuff and see what else I can find.


On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:18:23 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote:


Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so.  I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night).  I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on.  She will look great.



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...
<1622670693242blob.jpg>


locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

C J Wyatt
 

I replied a little too quickly. I found a note that the specifications for nos. 1207-1212 were dated 1/15/1952.

Maybe that will help your search.

Jack

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 12:49:20 PM EDT, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


Fenton, I wish I could help. I would like to know that one myself.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 12:34:54 PM EDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


I'm probably not an in depth researcher as y'all but I was trying to put together a book on the SR smooth side rebuilds and one mystery I could never find was what coach did the Hayne shop use to make into new partitioned, smooth side coach No.1209.
If you know or have the data on this conversion please share.
Thanks
Fenton



locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

TIM ANDREWS
 

I'll try to run down to the archives and look in the next few days to see what I can find.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 12:34:56 PM EDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


I'm probably not an in depth researcher as y'all but I was trying to put together a book on the SR smooth side rebuilds and one mystery I could never find was what coach did the Hayne shop use to make into new partitioned, smooth side coach No.1209.
If you know or have the data on this conversion please share.
Thanks
Fenton

On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Tim, I recall us talking about it years ago. If I remember, you had a lot of information on dispositions and my strength was the early Southern Railway passenger cars. I still would like to do something, but my research priorities are topics which have more general relevance. However I still get excited (like solving a puzzle) if I find out something new concerning cars from predecessor lines. We need to get someone with database expertise to help us get this thing set up.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 11:22:47 AM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


I also worked on an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars. my last print out came from dBase IV and is dated over twenty years ago.  It would seem that between the archives and some work done by individuals we should be able to take another stab at it using the tools that are available now.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 09:44:22 AM EDT, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


Tim, thanks for finding the answer. Years ago when I was trying to create an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars, a similar renumbering incident, number 1367 in your list, bedeviled me. The original Southern 1367 was a coach built by Pullman in 1909. Therefore I refer to the excursion car as No. 1367 (2nd).

Jack Wyatt 

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 10:12:09 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


From the SRHA archives today comes the following from the car maintenance record for car 3659 and dated 11/1/1966
Inline image

Using the diagram book from Another Man's Treasure we see that the car was originally 1632 which fits the series reported by Jack Wyatt.  According to Diagram 30-F-38 the car was built by Bethlehem 1924 was air conditioned in May of 1939 had Green Frieze Pat. 60 upholstery, the "8-3 interior color scheme and the tile #101 and 107 aisle stripe". It weighted 149,600 pounds.  From the diagram it had walk over seats and seated 72.  Although the date is not given on diagram 31-F-51 dated 12/7/48 the car received reclining seats and reconfigured restrooms and was renumbered 1083.  The seating was dropped to 48 seats.  26 cars received this conversion, some at Hayne and some at Chattanooga.

Seeing as how the seating was raised to 72 reclining seats and the restrooms were removed, we would assume that took place around 1966.

It is interesting to note that the 1058 on the list above is now at TVRM and still has the large restrooms and lower seating capacity.

I will keep digging through stuff and see what else I can find.


On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:18:23 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote:


Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so.  I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night).  I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on.  She will look great.



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

C J Wyatt
 

Fenton, I wish I could help. I would like to know that one myself.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 12:34:54 PM EDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


I'm probably not an in depth researcher as y'all but I was trying to put together a book on the SR smooth side rebuilds and one mystery I could never find was what coach did the Hayne shop use to make into new partitioned, smooth side coach No.1209.
If you know or have the data on this conversion please share.
Thanks
Fenton



locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

O Fenton Wells
 

I'm probably not an in depth researcher as y'all but I was trying to put together a book on the SR smooth side rebuilds and one mystery I could never find was what coach did the Hayne shop use to make into new partitioned, smooth side coach No.1209.
If you know or have the data on this conversion please share.
Thanks
Fenton

On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Tim, I recall us talking about it years ago. If I remember, you had a lot of information on dispositions and my strength was the early Southern Railway passenger cars. I still would like to do something, but my research priorities are topics which have more general relevance. However I still get excited (like solving a puzzle) if I find out something new concerning cars from predecessor lines. We need to get someone with database expertise to help us get this thing set up.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 11:22:47 AM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


I also worked on an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars. my last print out came from dBase IV and is dated over twenty years ago.  It would seem that between the archives and some work done by individuals we should be able to take another stab at it using the tools that are available now.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 09:44:22 AM EDT, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


Tim, thanks for finding the answer. Years ago when I was trying to create an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars, a similar renumbering incident, number 1367 in your list, bedeviled me. The original Southern 1367 was a coach built by Pullman in 1909. Therefore I refer to the excursion car as No. 1367 (2nd).

Jack Wyatt 

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 10:12:09 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


From the SRHA archives today comes the following from the car maintenance record for car 3659 and dated 11/1/1966
Inline image

Using the diagram book from Another Man's Treasure we see that the car was originally 1632 which fits the series reported by Jack Wyatt.  According to Diagram 30-F-38 the car was built by Bethlehem 1924 was air conditioned in May of 1939 had Green Frieze Pat. 60 upholstery, the "8-3 interior color scheme and the tile #101 and 107 aisle stripe". It weighted 149,600 pounds.  From the diagram it had walk over seats and seated 72.  Although the date is not given on diagram 31-F-51 dated 12/7/48 the car received reclining seats and reconfigured restrooms and was renumbered 1083.  The seating was dropped to 48 seats.  26 cars received this conversion, some at Hayne and some at Chattanooga.

Seeing as how the seating was raised to 72 reclining seats and the restrooms were removed, we would assume that took place around 1966.

It is interesting to note that the 1058 on the list above is now at TVRM and still has the large restrooms and lower seating capacity.

I will keep digging through stuff and see what else I can find.


On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:18:23 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote:


Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so.  I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night).  I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on.  She will look great.



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

C J Wyatt
 

Tim, I recall us talking about it years ago. If I remember, you had a lot of information on dispositions and my strength was the early Southern Railway passenger cars. I still would like to do something, but my research priorities are topics which have more general relevance. However I still get excited (like solving a puzzle) if I find out something new concerning cars from predecessor lines. We need to get someone with database expertise to help us get this thing set up.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 11:22:47 AM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


I also worked on an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars. my last print out came from dBase IV and is dated over twenty years ago.  It would seem that between the archives and some work done by individuals we should be able to take another stab at it using the tools that are available now.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 09:44:22 AM EDT, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


Tim, thanks for finding the answer. Years ago when I was trying to create an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars, a similar renumbering incident, number 1367 in your list, bedeviled me. The original Southern 1367 was a coach built by Pullman in 1909. Therefore I refer to the excursion car as No. 1367 (2nd).

Jack Wyatt 

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 10:12:09 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


From the SRHA archives today comes the following from the car maintenance record for car 3659 and dated 11/1/1966
Inline image

Using the diagram book from Another Man's Treasure we see that the car was originally 1632 which fits the series reported by Jack Wyatt.  According to Diagram 30-F-38 the car was built by Bethlehem 1924 was air conditioned in May of 1939 had Green Frieze Pat. 60 upholstery, the "8-3 interior color scheme and the tile #101 and 107 aisle stripe". It weighted 149,600 pounds.  From the diagram it had walk over seats and seated 72.  Although the date is not given on diagram 31-F-51 dated 12/7/48 the car received reclining seats and reconfigured restrooms and was renumbered 1083.  The seating was dropped to 48 seats.  26 cars received this conversion, some at Hayne and some at Chattanooga.

Seeing as how the seating was raised to 72 reclining seats and the restrooms were removed, we would assume that took place around 1966.

It is interesting to note that the 1058 on the list above is now at TVRM and still has the large restrooms and lower seating capacity.

I will keep digging through stuff and see what else I can find.


On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:18:23 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote:


Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so.  I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night).  I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on.  She will look great.


locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

TIM ANDREWS
 

I also worked on an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars. my last print out came from dBase IV and is dated over twenty years ago.  It would seem that between the archives and some work done by individuals we should be able to take another stab at it using the tools that are available now.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 09:44:22 AM EDT, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


Tim, thanks for finding the answer. Years ago when I was trying to create an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars, a similar renumbering incident, number 1367 in your list, bedeviled me. The original Southern 1367 was a coach built by Pullman in 1909. Therefore I refer to the excursion car as No. 1367 (2nd).

Jack Wyatt 

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 10:12:09 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


From the SRHA archives today comes the following from the car maintenance record for car 3659 and dated 11/1/1966
Inline image

Using the diagram book from Another Man's Treasure we see that the car was originally 1632 which fits the series reported by Jack Wyatt.  According to Diagram 30-F-38 the car was built by Bethlehem 1924 was air conditioned in May of 1939 had Green Frieze Pat. 60 upholstery, the "8-3 interior color scheme and the tile #101 and 107 aisle stripe". It weighted 149,600 pounds.  From the diagram it had walk over seats and seated 72.  Although the date is not given on diagram 31-F-51 dated 12/7/48 the car received reclining seats and reconfigured restrooms and was renumbered 1083.  The seating was dropped to 48 seats.  26 cars received this conversion, some at Hayne and some at Chattanooga.

Seeing as how the seating was raised to 72 reclining seats and the restrooms were removed, we would assume that took place around 1966.

It is interesting to note that the 1058 on the list above is now at TVRM and still has the large restrooms and lower seating capacity.

I will keep digging through stuff and see what else I can find.


On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:18:23 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote:


Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so.  I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night).  I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on.  She will look great.


locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

George Eichelberger
 

One of the possible projects for upcoming work sessions will be to go through boxes of “miscellaneous” document and either move them to individual car files, or, at least to scan them and put the digital versions in the same “folder” as the car file (not many of those have been scanned. As Hayne maintained the Southern’s passenger cars, official cars and cabs, there are individual files on them in the archives. Box cars, also maintained at Hayne, do not have individual car files.

Other possible work session projects include:
Reviewing, organizing and scanning the documentation, specifications and drawings (some very large) on all of the Southern’s lightweight passenger car orders from 1941.

The SRHA photo collections: There are thousands of negative and prints in the archives. Some are very well organized but other are not. The various collections, while maintaining each item’s provenance, need to be collated and organized. Now the same engine number, for example, may have different photos in various collections and may be filed in different places depending on the size of the negative or if it is a print. While we may not want to rearrange the negatives or prints, once the items are scanned we can organize the digital files to manke anything easier to find. (That applies to anything; drawing, document or photo.)

Note the SRHA archive includes many ACL, SAL, A&WP, GA, L&N etc. photos from the Roberts, Kimsey and Prince collections. The Kimsey collection contains hundreds of industrial and short line photos dating back to steam.

The industrial and short line negatives warrant their own book!

The archives will be open before noon on Thursday 6-17 through Saturday afternoon. If you are coming to help, please (!) send an email to archives@... so we can plan the various projects and work areas. We typically work until 7:00PM or so and will start by 8:00 on Friday and Saturday. TVRM is fully open.

Ike


On Jun 3, 2021, at 9:43 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Tim, thanks for finding the answer. Years ago when I was trying to create an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars, a similar renumbering incident, number 1367 in your list, bedeviled me. The original Southern 1367 was a coach built by Pullman in 1909. Therefore I refer to the excursion car as No. 1367 (2nd).

Jack Wyatt 

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 10:12:09 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:


From the SRHA archives today comes the following from the car maintenance record for car 3659 and dated 11/1/1966
<1622670693242blob.jpg>

Using the diagram book from Another Man's Treasure we see that the car was originally 1632 which fits the series reported by Jack Wyatt.  According to Diagram 30-F-38 the car was built by Bethlehem 1924 was air conditioned in May of 1939 had Green Frieze Pat. 60 upholstery, the "8-3 interior color scheme and the tile #101 and 107 aisle stripe". It weighted 149,600 pounds.  From the diagram it had walk over seats and seated 72.  Although the date is not given on diagram 31-F-51 dated 12/7/48 the car received reclining seats and reconfigured restrooms and was renumbered 1083.  The seating was dropped to 48 seats.  26 cars received this conversion, some at Hayne and some at Chattanooga.

Seeing as how the seating was raised to 72 reclining seats and the restrooms were removed, we would assume that took place around 1966.

It is interesting to note that the 1058 on the list above is now at TVRM and still has the large restrooms and lower seating capacity.

I will keep digging through stuff and see what else I can find.


On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:18:23 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote:


Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so.  I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night).  I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on.  She will look great.
<1622670693242blob.jpg>


locked Re: Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach

TIM ANDREWS
 

We can get you a sample or current color formula for the Southern Green paint, along with the lettering, if it is decided to go with the Southern colors.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 10:10:08 AM EDT, Artist794 Workshop <artist794workshop@...> wrote:


All I can say is WOW and thank you so much everyone. This is amazing research work and I know myself and many of our crews appreciate it. 

First to answer an earlier post I just saw now. Yes, this car is now at the Valley Railroad ( Essex Steam Train & Riverboat) in Essex, CT. I myself, am both a employee of the railroad as a Trainmen and as a volunteer with their non profit associated group, The Friends of the Valley Railroad.  Our line acquired the car from Age of Steam Roundhouse along with two former Canadian National cars. While no plans have been announce, nor do I speak on behalf of the railroad company, the "Friends" have been working on it during our weekly shop night removing seats and the existing flooring for inspection of the steel under floor and start repairs. As of last night we have 3/4th of the flooring removed. (Many layers of tile, 3/4" plywood, insulation and 2x4s)  We found a few areas were the steel floor underneath is damaged and/or corroding away above the south truck/bathroom area. 

I did take a moment to look around the car and was able to find some metal marked "1632" so with that and the above post from Tim Andrews, I think its safe to say we have identified the car's original number. I also removed some of the flaking "Ohio Central" maroon paint and saw a darker green, almost black. Not sure if that is the correct colors for southern green or if its just a undercoat. I can also confirm there are no Bathrooms on the car but that might help explain the thinner sheets of metal we found at the south end. Could be patches over previous holes. Also on the south end there are 2 cabinets that seem to need a key to open. Without trying to force it too much we could not open them. 

Another confirmation I can make is that the 6 wheel trucks have "Bethlehem" cast into the frames. However the wheels are roller bearing so I'm not sure if these were upgraded during one of the renovations. 

Regardless Thank you all again for the help and please let me know if you find anything else.  The car seems like its going to be our pet project for the foreseeable future, so I can post updates here if any one is interested. While we are not sure what exactly the cars future hold, I'm hoping that this research can be used to help tell its story and help with restorations.

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