Date   

locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

Very true - though perhaps Tony Koester and his concept of 'selective compression' may be able to help. That is, cut out the things you don't need to focus on showing a version of what you do need.


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 20:39 A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:
“Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.”. 
That’s likely an understatement.

Railroads are HUGE.  The yard in Mount Airy, NC in HO scale is 27 feet long and more than 6 feet wide. That’s the end of of a small short line/branch. Birmingham would fill a basement AFTER selective compression.

But you could show off a lot of interesting Southern equipment!

I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. We need to find someone to write a more historical series on Birmingham. Might be the way to learn enough to model it well. Sort of how I got into writing the A&Y article with Kevin.  I recommend it as a learning exercise.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Sep 20, 2021, at 8:17 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.


locked Re: Ms-7 locomotives

C J Wyatt
 



On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 05:35:21 PM EDT, Brent Greer <studegator@...> wrote:


The most recent post on the locomotives of the Atlanta-Birmingham line caught my attention.

I was not aware of the Ms-7 class of engones acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders.  

Can anyone share photos of these in Southern Ry. service that I might use for modeling purposes?

Sincere thanks, 
Brent


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

A&Y Dave in MD
 

“Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.”. 
That’s likely an understatement.

Railroads are HUGE.  The yard in Mount Airy, NC in HO scale is 27 feet long and more than 6 feet wide. That’s the end of of a small short line/branch. Birmingham would fill a basement AFTER selective compression.

But you could show off a lot of interesting Southern equipment!

I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. We need to find someone to write a more historical series on Birmingham. Might be the way to learn enough to model it well. Sort of how I got into writing the A&Y article with Kevin.  I recommend it as a learning exercise.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Sep 20, 2021, at 8:17 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

In my recent reply, I failed to say early diesel switcher assignments, but Jason is right - a lot of steam switchers were still operating in the mid-forties.

Jack

On Monday, September 20, 2021, 08:02:55 PM EDT, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


0-8-0s and 2-8-0s were common in the yards in both Atlanta and Birmingham. Birmingham also had some 0-6-0s still lingering. 

I Birmingham the Southern interchanged with just about everyone. You had the Frisco, IC, CG, AB&C, L&N, SAL (limited), and all the industrial roads. Not far from Birmingham to the north and west you also had the Columbus and Greenville on the old Georgia Pacific. 

Jason Greene 



locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

You're welcome, James.

Southern Railway kept a good list of early switcher assignments, so basically name a date. Of course tackling modeling a major terminal in anything less than a club-sized layout is a challenge. The yard in Atlanta was huge and the trains from Birmingham ran with the trains from Chattanooga, east of Austell. In Birmingham, the AGS subsidiary and Southern Railway proper both had their own yards. I do seem to recall that the AGS yard did originate and receive some trains with Atlanta traffic. Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards. 

The era was during the time of ICC regulation, so everyone interchanged with everyone to a greater or lesser extent depending on how the traffic was routed. The shipper generally selected a route. If the shipper left the route blank (open routing) then the originating railroad could fill in the route.

I don't know if you have seen this website. but there is a wealth of information on it:


Here is another view of the overall map with a white background, enlargeable with good resolution:


If you can find a copy of the Birmingham-Bessemer Terminal Area Co-ordinating Committe Report which the maps were part of, you can find detailed information about the railroad operations and facilities in the area circa 1935, which probably did not change that much into the late forties.

Any other railroads which you are interested in?

Jack Wyatt

In particular, take a look at the 1935 rail maps.

On Monday, September 20, 2021, 06:51:02 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Thanks all, what you've shown has really helped. 

Does anyone know what switchers the Southern tended to use in their Atlanta and Birmingham yards at this time?

Does anyone know what companies the Southern interchanged with in Bham? I know the Southern and the Frisco were on good terms, so they certainly had an interchange. 



locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

Jason Greene
 

0-8-0s and 2-8-0s were common in the yards in both Atlanta and Birmingham. Birmingham also had some 0-6-0s still lingering. 

I Birmingham the Southern interchanged with just about everyone. You had the Frisco, IC, CG, AB&C, L&N, SAL (limited), and all the industrial roads. Not far from Birmingham to the north and west you also had the Columbus and Greenville on the old Georgia Pacific. 

Jason Greene 

On Sep 20, 2021, at 6:28 PM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Thanks all, what you've shown has really helped. 

Does anyone know what switchers the Southern tended to use in their Atlanta and Birmingham yards at this time?

Does anyone know what companies the Southern interchanged with in Bham? I know the Southern and the Frisco were on good terms, so they certainly had an interchange. 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 15:44 Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <abridgemansutton@...> wrote:
Sorry, but apparently Mr Brain and Mr Memory were both having bad days at the office. for "1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2)"  please read "1482" and forget the bit about moving around. 

Aidrian   

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:07 PM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via groups.io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

Thanks all, what you've shown has really helped. 

Does anyone know what switchers the Southern tended to use in their Atlanta and Birmingham yards at this time?

Does anyone know what companies the Southern interchanged with in Bham? I know the Southern and the Frisco were on good terms, so they certainly had an interchange. 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 15:44 Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <abridgemansutton@...> wrote:
Sorry, but apparently Mr Brain and Mr Memory were both having bad days at the office. for "1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2)"  please read "1482" and forget the bit about moving around. 

Aidrian   

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:07 PM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via groups.io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Sorry, but apparently Mr Brain and Mr Memory were both having bad days at the office. for "1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2)"  please read "1482" and forget the bit about moving around. 

Aidrian   

Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:07 PM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via groups.io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Ms-7 locomotives

C J Wyatt
 

Brent, here is one to get you started. Birmingham 8/25/1946.

Jack

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 05:35:21 PM EDT, Brent Greer <studegator@...> wrote:


The most recent post on the locomotives of the Atlanta-Birmingham line caught my attention.

I was not aware of the Ms-7 class of engones acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders.  

Can anyone share photos of these in Southern Ry. service that I might use for modeling purposes?

Sincere thanks, 
Brent


locked Ms-7 locomotives

Brent Greer
 

The most recent post on the locomotives of the Atlanta-Birmingham line caught my attention.

I was not aware of the Ms-7 class of engones acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders.  

Can anyone share photos of these in Southern Ry. service that I might use for modeling purposes?

Sincere thanks, 
Brent


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?


On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Re: Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

TIM ANDREWS
 

Former B&O office car 98.  Getting extensive body, side sill and roof repairs.

On Monday, September 13, 2021, 12:16:07 PM EDT, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


Just curious, what is the other open platform car behind it?

Jason Greene 

On Sep 13, 2021, at 11:33 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike

<Sou OC-21 in TVRM shop.jpeg>


locked Re: Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

George Eichelberger
 

Jason:

Good question! I don’t know…my first thought was that it was TVRM’s #98 but I think that is out of the shop after some extensive work.

I was in the 21 a month or so ago (Still in disguise as NS-8). The work George Walker and the shop guys do is first class. After they removed a window, they painted the inside of the side sheet around the opening for additional protection. 

Now that we have the new scanner in service at the archive, we will try to scan more of the rolls of official car drawings in the "high and wide” cabinets (they are BIG drawings!) I have never seen a photo taken as the Southern’s smooth side cars were being rebuilt. Between the sides and roofs, the Pullmans must have been stripped to their framework. (Fenton Wells started on a Southern smooth side book. Now that we are away from the madness at Kennesaw and hopefully getting through Covid(?), maybe that can be re-started?)

Make a plan to take some of the SERM folks up to Chattanooga sometime. This week’s trip will be the first time I’ve seen a “Baby Train Master” in person. (Tim Andrews told me TVRM has spent around $100,000 moving the TM and an Alco switcher donated to them by TVA to Chattanooga. That is after TVA loaded the locos on trucks with their equipment. Modeling in 12” to the foot is serious business!)

Ike


On Sep 13, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

Just curious, what is the other open platform car behind it?

Jason Greene 

On Sep 13, 2021, at 11:33 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike

<Sou OC-21 in TVRM shop.jpeg>



locked Re: Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

Kyle Shannon
 

Jason,

That is TVRM’s ex-B&O 98. It’s also been undergoing a ground up rebuild.

Kyle




On Monday, September 13, 2021, 12:16 PM, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

Just curious, what is the other open platform car behind it?

Jason Greene 

On Sep 13, 2021, at 11:33 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike

<Sou OC-21 in TVRM shop.jpeg>


locked Re: Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

Jason Greene
 

Just curious, what is the other open platform car behind it?

Jason Greene 

On Sep 13, 2021, at 11:33 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike

<Sou OC-21 in TVRM shop.jpeg>


locked Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

George Eichelberger
 


The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike


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