Date   

locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Carl. Looks like the AGS crews (south end) got stuck with the extra move.

Jack

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 09:32:28 PM EDT, CARL ARDREY <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:


AGS crews (south end) backed in and backed out at terminal station.   East End crews (and AGS North) headed in and headed out.
CEA


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Jason Greene
 

Try this out. It’s a rough drawing I just drew up for you. 
Frisco to and from Memphis to the North. 
IC came in on trackage rights on Frisco. 
Southern to Columbus, MS (old Georgia Pacific) and Sheffield, AL (North Alabama line) to the North. 
AGS thru the wye to Meridian and Chattanooga. 
CG thru the wye to Birmingham. Crossing AGS. 
SAL to Atlanta thru the wye and crossing AGS. 
Southern from Atlanta used the AGS line from Irondale. 

L&N did not go to Terminal but crossed the wye. Sloss also crossed the wye and the AGS had a yard inside the wye to serve downtown industries like Sloss. 

IC, ABC, and SAL jointly owned the Birmingham Terminal which crossed under the AGS and L&N down near Union Station and 14th st to get to the SAL yard two blocks south of where the SAL crossed the AGS to access Terminal Station. 

The other industrial lines also had trackage in the area. Plus the street car system. Birmingham was a spaghetti bowl of rail at its height. 


Jason Greene 

On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Carl Ardrey
 

AGS crews (south end) backed in and backed out at terminal station.   East End crews (and AGS North) headed in and headed out.
CEA

On 10/08/2021 7:47 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
 
 
 
Ike, I don't think that I need to look at the contracts. I just am hoping that  someone who spent time around there who can tell me how the trains got in and out.
 
Jack
 
On Friday, October 8, 2021, 08:43:13 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
 
 
Jack:
 
There are quite a few contracts, and Presidents’ files on Birmingham Term  Sta. I cannot quote their contents but Contract No 632 (we have more than 1,100) may have what you are looking for?
 
Here’s the cover..
 
Ike


On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt < cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  
 


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

C J Wyatt
 

Ike, I don't think that I need to look at the contracts. I just am hoping that  someone who spent time around there who can tell me how the trains got in and out.

Jack

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 08:43:13 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Jack:

There are quite a few contracts, and Presidents’ files on Birmingham Term  Sta. I cannot quote their contents but Contract No 632 (we have more than 1,100) may have what you are looking for?

Here’s the cover..

Ike


On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

Another possibility..

Contract 1123?

Places like Birmingham can create a lot of documentation because most contracts were bi-lateral even though multiple railroads were all in the same project.

Ike



On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

There are quite a few contracts, and Presidents’ files on Birmingham Term  Sta. I cannot quote their contents but Contract No 632 (we have more than 1,100) may have what you are looking for?

Here’s the cover..

Ike


On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

C J Wyatt
 

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Re: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

Ignore the Hayes posting! It will have no effect on what we are doing.

Ike

On Oct 8, 2021, at 4:43 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

What does this mean for next steps?

I completed a version of flats 1-27. But was not hearing how to coordinate. 

What next?

Dave 

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Oct 8, 2021, at 2:54 PM, sou1952 hayes via groups.io <Sou1952@...> wrote:


Ike

This work has already been started, I have been copying "F" CARD RECORDS and "P" CARD RECORDS into spread sheets for each car series. I have also created a Car Series Index by car number and railroad. One of the problem's I have run into is that most of the "F" Card RECORDS were scanned on a 8.5x11" scanner and sometimes some information was cut off, and they need to be scanned on a 11x17" scanner so that the entire page gets scanned. I have a larger scanner at home and plan to bring it to the next work session that I will attend. This will probably be in November since I am in Arizona for a family funeral and will be here for the October work session.

I am also doing the same project for passenger cars, since I scanned the "P" CARD RECORDS on my larger scanner some time ago. I also have some "L" CARD RECORDS that I have scanned from SERM that I would like to use to make drawing list for steam locomotives.

If you can wait until November work session I can show how much work has already been accomplished on this project.

Chris Hayes



-----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE EICHELBERGER <geichelberger@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Cc: Hayes, Chris <SOU1952@...>; Kyle Shannon <kyle_shannon@...>; Rick Bell <Rwbrv4@...>
Sent: Sun, Oct 3, 2021 1:55 pm
Subject: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

Would any SRHA members be interested in helping to catalog SRHA’s drawings by entering the pages on the different card lists into a spreadsheet? When that is done, we will link the pages from the Card List (F-Cards) to the drawing inventories Chris Hayes has been working on.

Starting from the card list for a particular car, my example below is from Card List F-70 showing the drawings for 500 40’ auto boxes. Page 1 of F-70 is attached. The columns of the spreadsheet would be the same as Pg 1. That gives us the car-to-drawings list. A spreadsheet ”search” could locate any drawing number that had been entered, then the Cover of that F-Card would give us car information. Many drawings do NOT show which cars they were used on so we need a “reverse” lookup technique if we want to go farther than searching the drawing number, finding the F-Card, going to the F-Card’s Cover.

The cover also may include the Specifications those cars were built under (those are in the archives as well).

To make the work somewhat easier, the F-Cards used a standard form for any car type. As F-70 is for a box car, the entry for “cattle bar” (and others) at the bottom of the page is simply left blank. 

The first column of each of the F-Card’s seven or so pages will be different but a “cut and paste” could be done to avoid typing that after the first F-Card. The form did change periodically, think wood and steel cars would have very different drawings, but there are not that many different forms for the 237 or so F-Cards that have been scanned.

Before anyone volunteers, the Card Lists file includes 4,170 scans, including covers. While I was nutty enough to do those scans, it took a very, very long time! This project calls for splitting the CLs among multiple volunteers.

Because the CLs are scanned, they can be emailed and folks can work on them wherever they are. We just need to coordinate the work.

Contact me at archives@... if you are interested.

Ike

<F-70 Pg1.jpeg>
<F-70 Pg1.jpeg>


locked Re: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

A&Y Dave in MD
 

What does this mean for next steps?

I completed a version of flats 1-27. But was not hearing how to coordinate. 

What next?

Dave 

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Oct 8, 2021, at 2:54 PM, sou1952 hayes via groups.io <Sou1952@...> wrote:


Ike

This work has already been started, I have been copying "F" CARD RECORDS and "P" CARD RECORDS into spread sheets for each car series. I have also created a Car Series Index by car number and railroad. One of the problem's I have run into is that most of the "F" Card RECORDS were scanned on a 8.5x11" scanner and sometimes some information was cut off, and they need to be scanned on a 11x17" scanner so that the entire page gets scanned. I have a larger scanner at home and plan to bring it to the next work session that I will attend. This will probably be in November since I am in Arizona for a family funeral and will be here for the October work session.

I am also doing the same project for passenger cars, since I scanned the "P" CARD RECORDS on my larger scanner some time ago. I also have some "L" CARD RECORDS that I have scanned from SERM that I would like to use to make drawing list for steam locomotives.

If you can wait until November work session I can show how much work has already been accomplished on this project.

Chris Hayes



-----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE EICHELBERGER <geichelberger@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Cc: Hayes, Chris <SOU1952@...>; Kyle Shannon <kyle_shannon@...>; Rick Bell <Rwbrv4@...>
Sent: Sun, Oct 3, 2021 1:55 pm
Subject: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

Would any SRHA members be interested in helping to catalog SRHA’s drawings by entering the pages on the different card lists into a spreadsheet? When that is done, we will link the pages from the Card List (F-Cards) to the drawing inventories Chris Hayes has been working on.

Starting from the card list for a particular car, my example below is from Card List F-70 showing the drawings for 500 40’ auto boxes. Page 1 of F-70 is attached. The columns of the spreadsheet would be the same as Pg 1. That gives us the car-to-drawings list. A spreadsheet ”search” could locate any drawing number that had been entered, then the Cover of that F-Card would give us car information. Many drawings do NOT show which cars they were used on so we need a “reverse” lookup technique if we want to go farther than searching the drawing number, finding the F-Card, going to the F-Card’s Cover.

The cover also may include the Specifications those cars were built under (those are in the archives as well).

To make the work somewhat easier, the F-Cards used a standard form for any car type. As F-70 is for a box car, the entry for “cattle bar” (and others) at the bottom of the page is simply left blank. 

The first column of each of the F-Card’s seven or so pages will be different but a “cut and paste” could be done to avoid typing that after the first F-Card. The form did change periodically, think wood and steel cars would have very different drawings, but there are not that many different forms for the 237 or so F-Cards that have been scanned.

Before anyone volunteers, the Card Lists file includes 4,170 scans, including covers. While I was nutty enough to do those scans, it took a very, very long time! This project calls for splitting the CLs among multiple volunteers.

Because the CLs are scanned, they can be emailed and folks can work on them wherever they are. We just need to coordinate the work.

Contact me at archives@... if you are interested.

Ike

<F-70 Pg1.jpeg>
<F-70 Pg1.jpeg>


locked Re: Norris Yard start and completion dates

George Eichelberger
 

The re-construction of Inman is interesting because it was such a large project that involved a lot of rock and earth moving in addition to the construction of the welded rail and turnout plants. To speed construction, track panels were assembled and carried to the yard tracks by “master” and “drone” track cars and a semi-truck adapted for laying panels.

Ike



On Oct 6, 2021, at 2:38 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Thanks Ike,

That early picture is interesting.

I agree that the construction of Norris Yard, and the rebuilding of Inman Yard would be interesting topics. I seem to recall that Inman had tracks added and the earlier rider hump was converted to a flat yard after WWII, before the automatic hump was built in the mid-fifties.

Jack Wyatt


On Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 02:25:43 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Jack:

There is a large file on Norris Yard in the archives (the Norris track layout is a 45MB file). There, and Inman’s reconstruction are would be good articles in TIES.

There is also quite a bit of material on Ferguson Shops (note attached) and of course Terminal Station…In fact “Birmingham” is ready for some serious research and writing.

Ike

PS Archives work session is about 10 days away.

<Ferguson Shops Roundhouse 1912.jpeg>


On Oct 6, 2021, at 1:58 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I have some aerial photos showing the grading for Norris Yard at Irondale AL east of Birmingham.

I am curious what the timeframe for the construction of Norris Yard was.

Appreciate it!

Jack Wyatt


locked Re: Norris Yard start and completion dates

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Ike,

That early picture is interesting.

I agree that the construction of Norris Yard, and the rebuilding of Inman Yard would be interesting topics. I seem to recall that Inman had tracks added and the earlier rider hump was converted to a flat yard after WWII, before the automatic hump was built in the mid-fifties.

Jack Wyatt


On Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 02:25:43 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Jack:

There is a large file on Norris Yard in the archives (the Norris track layout is a 45MB file). There, and Inman’s reconstruction are would be good articles in TIES.

There is also quite a bit of material on Ferguson Shops (note attached) and of course Terminal Station…In fact “Birmingham” is ready for some serious research and writing.

Ike

PS Archives work session is about 10 days away.



On Oct 6, 2021, at 1:58 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I have some aerial photos showing the grading for Norris Yard at Irondale AL east of Birmingham.

I am curious what the timeframe for the construction of Norris Yard was.

Appreciate it!

Jack Wyatt


locked Re: Norris Yard start and completion dates

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

There is a large file on Norris Yard in the archives (the Norris track layout is a 45MB file). There, and Inman’s reconstruction are would be good articles in TIES.

There is also quite a bit of material on Ferguson Shops (note attached) and of course Terminal Station…In fact “Birmingham” is ready for some serious research and writing.

Ike

PS Archives work session is about 10 days away.



On Oct 6, 2021, at 1:58 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I have some aerial photos showing the grading for Norris Yard at Irondale AL east of Birmingham.

I am curious what the timeframe for the construction of Norris Yard was.

Appreciate it!

Jack Wyatt


locked Norris Yard start and completion dates

C J Wyatt
 

I have some aerial photos showing the grading for Norris Yard at Irondale AL east of Birmingham.

I am curious what the timeframe for the construction of Norris Yard was.

Appreciate it!

Jack Wyatt


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

Marv Clemons
 

I don't know the exact date, but CTC was installed on the AGS between Burstall and Meridian shortly before the infamous head-on collision at Woodstock, AL occurred in November, 1951. 

Marv Clemons


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

D. Scott Chatfield
 

> I realize now I should asked when TT&TO was done away with, rather than when CTC was implemented.


TT&TO wasn't done away with until it was replaced by either CTC or Track Warrant Control, and that happened across the system by 1991 IIRC.  Whenever it was that NS adopted what amounted to the General Code of Operating Rules, which by then did not have TT&TO.

Keep in mind that ABS signaling was only a safety overlay to lines then controlled by TT&TO.  It did not replace TT&TO.

Scott Chatfield


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks. I don't think either of those CTC installations took place before the end of WWII, and probably did not occur at least until the 1950s.

I don't see CTC in my April 26, 1948 AGS employee timetable, or in my Sept. 29, 1946 Birmingham Div. ETT.

Jack Wyatt

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021, 11:11:30 PM EDT, John Hedrick <johedrick6@...> wrote:


I understand that the south end of the AGS (Birmingham - Meridian) was an early CTC installation.

Parts of the Atlanta-Birmingham line were remote control territory, both ends and Anniston, AL, while the remainder of the line was TT-TO with ABS.

John O. Hedrick


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

John Hedrick
 

I understand that the south end of the AGS (Birmingham - Meridian) was an early CTC installation.

Parts of the Atlanta-Birmingham line were remote control territory, both ends and Anniston, AL, while the remainder of the line was TT-TO with ABS.

John O. Hedrick


locked 1950-10-1 Mail and Express Cars out of Washington in ONE day

George Eichelberger
 

For anyone interested in Express and mail services on Southern passenger trains, this memo from Harry DeButts to Ernest Norris may be interesting.

I have mentioned how reduction in passenger schedules in the 1960s, and the railroad wanting to maintain mail and express revenues was a force in the development of intermodal equipment and trains. (Yet another story to be researched, written about and published by someone.)

Ike


locked Re: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

Evan Whatley
 

Ike-
I'm interesting in joining this effort as well. Might be worthwhile to use Google Drive to host the sheets?
--
-Evan Whatley


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

C J Wyatt
 

What really got Southern into CTC big time was the elimination of double-track on parts of the CNO&TO and then the Mainline between Atlanta GA and Alexandria VA 

I do wonder if its first installation was a short stretch somewhere which may be viewed as an extended interlocking.

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, October 4, 2021, 12:24:39 PM EDT, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


I wonder where Southern's first CTC installation was?

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, October 4, 2021, 12:11:37 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Here’s an ATS/ATC map from 1947….

Now for a gripe! I have mentioned how much material there is in the SRHA archives many times. Actually, it’s pretty useless if people will not go to Chattanooga to see what’s there. I realize we are in the “Google” era and many people will not travel farther than their PC keyboards.

Anyone is welcome...….Flame me off line if you wish….

Ike


On Oct 4, 2021, at 11:53 AM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:

I realize now I should asked when TT&TO was done away with, rather than when CTC was implemented.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:51 James Walton via groups.io <whovianwil=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ah okay, I'd forgotten about ABS. The ancient TT&TO system was starting to disappear on many railroads by the 40s.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:43 D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:
The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield




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