Date   
moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

Bill Schafer
 

Re: flexible segregated sections: I hadn't heard that SOU utilized the moveable-curtain solution, but it makes sense. It’s believable.

Re: 1401: The late Bernie Gallagher knew exactly what was wrong with 1401’s paint job, but when corrections were offered to the Transportation Curator of the Smithsonian, the reply was: “That’s the way the Southern painted it, and that’s the way it’s going to stay.”

What does the Oracle say about these issues?

—Bill

On Apr 8, 2019, at 7:08 AM, Cohen Bob via Groups.Io <orl96782@...> wrote:

On both of these topics:

On the coaches, I was told that the segregated section was "elastic" as the passenger loads varied. This I refer to from those coaches which did NOT have a hard barrier at the end of the Jim Crow portion. I don't know that SR had those or the ones with a curtain, but have been told they existed in the south.

Bill, Ike, care to comment and amplify?

Regarding 1401 being shopped in Alexandria: I was told by one of the metal workers/painters some 25+ years after the fact that it was restored cosmetically only, no boiler work, etc. These same men worked out at the National Capital Trolley Museum on one of their cars after an accident in 1987. Maybe the tender was fixed up as that would have relatively easy, but other than that, the cab, boiler jacket, etc. was made to look nice and pretty, and little else ................ or so I have been told. Remember that it came up dead-in-train, rods down and then sat out of doors from 1953 until it went to the Smithsonian in 1961 in its epic mile and a half 33 hour journey.

Thoughts, comments.

Bob Cohen

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

C J Wyatt
 

<<

On Monday, April 8, 2019, 08:15:22 AM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


Re: flexible segregated sections: I hadn't heard that SOU utilized the moveable-curtain solution, but it makes sense. It’s believable.

>>

The Georgia Railroad had some coaches with multiple partitions. I seem to remember ones with as many as three partitions, but I cannot find any diagrams. I assume that it was for adjusting the space, but it may have been for smoking and non-smoking for both "colored and white".

Jack Wyatt


moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

Cohen Bob
 

Bill:

Based upon everything I have read and learned here, the painting not being quite right (or maybe even right at all?), is sure believable. That said, what about the "shopping" referred to earlier in this thread? As I said, it reportedly was NOT shopped, but cosmetically restored to sit fat and pretty, stuffed and mounted in the Smithsonian.

As for the Oracle ...... he was 12 at the time of the 1401 move, and, of course, getting heavily interested in everything SR. An aunt or cousin who he stayed with often had their home just a few blocks from the station and he spent a lot of his non-school, waking hours there, watching, learning, etc., for the lifelong memories. I am planning on attending a SR/NS employee/former employee get-together in Lynchburg in 4 weeks and that might be a question for those gathered there. Next time I see the Oracle, I'll try to remember to ask him. Maybe we'll get lucky and he will know for sure as he met, talked with and interviewed and socialized with many employees and made friends with them.

The movable curtain may have been a B&O thing when in WV and VA and that may be where I heard it in reference. Then again, it might have been from G. Lawson Clark (remember him), who, when prodded would relate lots of little this's and that's about segregation and sectional seating. Lawson has been gone now for 23 years by the way.

Bob Cohen

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

Bob P.
 

Just want to say, I'm learning a lot from these threads. Out of curiosity, I know a few other museums, like NCTM, have Southern Jim Crow cars in their collection; has anyone else restored one and opened it to visitors? Seems like it would be a good way to dispel some of the misconceptions we've discussed here.

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Why can’t a white guy write the article?  Ike, you have the evidence, that’s reason enough to set the facts right, just as much as a young black woman had the reason to refuse to move from her seat on a bus. The color of skin should not matter in either case. 

Why should you be hesitant to set the record straight? Preserving accurate portrayals of the facts is what historical societies should be doing!

I’ll donate $100 to SRHA if Smithsonian posts your article. My money is where my mouth is.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:04 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

The description of the Jim Crow car is unacceptable! We have an entire file of hand written notes from Southern Conductors that were forced to move families as their trains entered or left Jim Crow states saying how wrong the practice was. Let set the stage circa 1960s…..”white” conductors saying Jim Crow laws were wrong that worked for a company with its charter in Richmond.

I told Bill Withun about the Union Station washrooms and showed him the notes from conductors. His response was to ask me to write an article for the Smithsonian Magazine because my description of the Southern Railway’s attitudes about race were probably not what people would expect. I told him as a “white guy” I was probably not the right person for such an article.

After knowing how much information the Smithsonian had from SRHA and then to read the crap on their web site about the car has to be dealt with…and will be!

Ike

On Apr 7, 2019, at 8:41 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The article about this car is a disgrace and something that an institution like the Smithsonian should be ashamed of. As Ike said it is pure BS. 

The history of Jim Crow Laws and the treatment of African Americans is not what is in question here.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 4:23 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Ed and everyone…..

Please run the link to Smithsonian.com at the beginning of this post and read what they say about the car…..

Total BS not worthy of them!

Ike


On Apr 7, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

I think Floquil had a color they called “Coach Green “ which is close to the color The Smithsonian used. They should know to check things like this.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 11:22 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

According to the car specs it was Pullman Green No.4.  Sides and roof.  
Also if you look at the Passenger Car Diagram Book, by Bill Schafer although the restrooms in the 1200 are not labeled colored or white on page 58 the PS Jim Crow cars from 1940, 900-905 inclusive, the large restrooms were labeled Colored.  Also on page 77 these partitioned cars, from 1934, also had the larger restrooms labeled colored. I doubt if SR had changed that designation when 1200 was rebuilt in the 1930.  Plus the Jim Crow cars were some of the first cars that SR AC'ed after the dining cars in the mid 1930"s.  I believe that the Smithsonian got it wrong.  
Fenton

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 10:31 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Robert Hanson
 

I agree with Dave.

The facts have no color.  The truth is the truth, no matter who utters (or writes) it.

Go for it, Ike.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


From: A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...>
To: main <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Apr 8, 2019 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Jim Crow Coaches

Why can’t a white guy write the article?  Ike, you have the evidence, that’s reason enough to set the facts right, just as much as a young black woman had the reason to refuse to move from her seat on a bus. The color of skin should not matter in either case. 

Why should you be hesitant to set the record straight? Preserving accurate portrayals of the facts is what historical societies should be doing!

I’ll donate $100 to SRHA if Smithsonian posts your article. My money is where my mouth is.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:04 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

The description of the Jim Crow car is unacceptable! We have an entire file of hand written notes from Southern Conductors that were forced to move families as their trains entered or left Jim Crow states saying how wrong the practice was. Let set the stage circa 1960s…..”white” conductors saying Jim Crow laws were wrong that worked for a company with its charter in Richmond.

I told Bill Withun about the Union Station washrooms and showed him the notes from conductors. His response was to ask me to write an article for the Smithsonian Magazine because my description of the Southern Railway’s attitudes about race were probably not what people would expect. I told him as a “white guy” I was probably not the right person for such an article.

After knowing how much information the Smithsonian had from SRHA and then to read the crap on their web site about the car has to be dealt with…and will be!

Ike

On Apr 7, 2019, at 8:41 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The article about this car is a disgrace and something that an institution like the Smithsonian should be ashamed of. As Ike said it is pure BS. 

The history of Jim Crow Laws and the treatment of African Americans is not what is in question here.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 4:23 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Ed and everyone…..

Please run the link to Smithsonian.com at the beginning of this post and read what they say about the car…..

Total BS not worthy of them!

Ike


On Apr 7, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

I think Floquil had a color they called “Coach Green “ which is close to the color The Smithsonian used. They should know to check things like this.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 11:22 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

According to the car specs it was Pullman Green No.4.  Sides and roof.  
Also if you look at the Passenger Car Diagram Book, by Bill Schafer although the restrooms in the 1200 are not labeled colored or white on page 58 the PS Jim Crow cars from 1940, 900-905 inclusive, the large restrooms were labeled Colored.  Also on page 77 these partitioned cars, from 1934, also had the larger restrooms labeled colored. I doubt if SR had changed that designation when 1200 was rebuilt in the 1930.  Plus the Jim Crow cars were some of the first cars that SR AC'ed after the dining cars in the mid 1930"s.  I believe that the Smithsonian got it wrong.  
Fenton

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 10:31 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

You are correct of course. My thought when I made that comment to Bill Withun was the entire question of segregation on the Southern needed someone with a broad knowledge of the subject…not necessairly direct personal knowledge. Part of my logic was not wanting the message to be dulled or misinterpreted by anyone thinking the author was "grinding his own axe" with the story.

After another few years of being deeply involved in gathering and organizing Southern Railway history, it is clear to me that FACTS are all that matter. SRHA has no authority to speak for the Southern, now NS but we may have the “purest” reason to call out the Smithsonian for what I see as a gross ignorance of historical data (those pesky facts) by allowing someone to spin a story out of thin air about how colored travelers had to contend with their luggage piled on the floor around them.

Fighting and suing Kennesaw initially looked impossible. They cost us money and time but they knew the facts were on our side and we would not give up….. I (and others) think that may be the case with the Smithsonian now.

More as things develop….

Ike

On Apr 8, 2019, at 4:11 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Why can’t a white guy write the article?  Ike, you have the evidence, that’s reason enough to set the facts right, just as much as a young black woman had the reason to refuse to move from her seat on a bus. The color of skin should not matter in either case. 

Why should you be hesitant to set the record straight? Preserving accurate portrayals of the facts is what historical societies should be doing!

I’ll donate $100 to SRHA if Smithsonian posts your article. My money is where my mouth is.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:04 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

The description of the Jim Crow car is unacceptable! We have an entire file of hand written notes from Southern Conductors that were forced to move families as their trains entered or left Jim Crow states saying how wrong the practice was. Let set the stage circa 1960s…..”white” conductors saying Jim Crow laws were wrong that worked for a company with its charter in Richmond.

I told Bill Withun about the Union Station washrooms and showed him the notes from conductors. His response was to ask me to write an article for the Smithsonian Magazine because my description of the Southern Railway’s attitudes about race were probably not what people would expect. I told him as a “white guy” I was probably not the right person for such an article.

After knowing how much information the Smithsonian had from SRHA and then to read the crap on their web site about the car has to be dealt with…and will be!

Ike

On Apr 7, 2019, at 8:41 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The article about this car is a disgrace and something that an institution like the Smithsonian should be ashamed of. As Ike said it is pure BS. 

The history of Jim Crow Laws and the treatment of African Americans is not what is in question here.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 4:23 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Ed and everyone…..

Please run the link to Smithsonian.com at the beginning of this post and read what they say about the car…..

Total BS not worthy of them!

Ike


On Apr 7, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

I think Floquil had a color they called “Coach Green “ which is close to the color The Smithsonian used. They should know to check things like this.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 11:22 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

According to the car specs it was Pullman Green No.4.  Sides and roof.  
Also if you look at the Passenger Car Diagram Book, by Bill Schafer although the restrooms in the 1200 are not labeled colored or white on page 58 the PS Jim Crow cars from 1940, 900-905 inclusive, the large restrooms were labeled Colored.  Also on page 77 these partitioned cars, from 1934, also had the larger restrooms labeled colored. I doubt if SR had changed that designation when 1200 was rebuilt in the 1930.  Plus the Jim Crow cars were some of the first cars that SR AC'ed after the dining cars in the mid 1930"s.  I believe that the Smithsonian got it wrong.  
Fenton

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 10:31 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

Bill Schafer
 

TVRM operates two ex-Central of Georgia Jim Crow coaches in regular service. TVRM 906 is a modernized heavyweight, and the partition is still intact (but the “white” and “colored” designations have been done away with). TVRM 907 is a lightweight Jim Crow coach, and the partition has been removed (but you can tell where it was if you look for it). Each car still has four bathrooms and each has a small plaque explaining what a “Jim Crow” coach is/was.

—Bill

Interior of TVRM 906


Plaque in TVRM 907

On Apr 8, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Bob P. <tomcatter.bob@...> wrote:

Just want to say, I'm learning a lot from these threads. Out of curiosity, I know a few other museums, like NCTM, have Southern Jim Crow cars in their collection; has anyone else restored one and opened it to visitors? Seems like it would be a good way to dispel some of the misconceptions we've discussed here.

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

Ed Mims
 

The Central of Georgia had two number series of coaches. The 500-series were referred to as partitioned coaches because they had a partition near the center in order to comply with the Jim Crow laws. Rest rooms of near equal size and with the same appointments were located in the four corners of the car (there might have been some slight variations car to car). To my knowledge there were never signs posted in these cars to designate “white” or “colored” ends. In addition, these cars were often used in regular service for white only and/or colored only depending upon the need. My guess is the conductor could decide which end for each race depending on the placement of the car in the train. Colored patrons were usually seated at the forward end of the train and a partitioned coach was used to separate the train by race. The 600-series cars were designated as “full coach” and in later years when modernized had large restrooms, women on one end and men on the opposite end. These cars, like the 500-series never had signs for racial designations.

 

In my memory the only passenger equipment referred to as a “Jim Crow“ car was the car with a center baggage compartment and a passenger section on each end to be used on local trains which carried freight and passengers. I don’t think either end was designated as “white” or “colored” as the car generally would not be turned at the ends of the run. The “colored” passengers would occupy the leading end on the car. The use of the name “Jim Crow” when referring to partitioned coaches is  relatively new.  

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Schafer
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2019 10:49 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

 

TVRM operates two ex-Central of Georgia Jim Crow coaches in regular service. TVRM 906 is a modernized heavyweight, and the partition is still intact (but the “white” and “colored” designations have been done away with). TVRM 907 is a lightweight Jim Crow coach, and the partition has been removed (but you can tell where it was if you look for it). Each car still has four bathrooms and each has a small plaque explaining what a “Jim Crow” coach is/was.

 

—Bill

 

Interior of TVRM 906

 

Plaque in TVRM 907



On Apr 8, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Bob P. <tomcatter.bob@...> wrote:

 

Just want to say, I'm learning a lot from these threads. Out of curiosity, I know a few other museums, like NCTM, have Southern Jim Crow cars in their collection; has anyone else restored one and opened it to visitors? Seems like it would be a good way to dispel some of the misconceptions we've discussed here.

 

moderated JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Ed Mims
 

Attached is the outline of a presentation made at the RPM meeting at Cocoa Beach in 2016 by two excellent railroad historians, Noomi Peterson and Jim Murrie. Their contact information is shown on Page 2. This was an excellent presentation which is well documented and professionally done. They presented the FACTS with no apparent axe to grind. Perhaps someone in this group can forward this to a contact at the Smithsonian for their use. I think Ms. Peterson and Mr. Murrie would be very pleased to help get the facts to anyone who might inquire.

 

Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.

 

Ed Mims

moderated Re: JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Michael Young
 

In my 1963 ORG, the CofG has a boldface note in the Nancy Hanks schedule:  "Reserved Coach Seats for White Passengers Only."

Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.
 



From: Ed Mims <wemims@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 9, 2019 9:36 am
Subject: [SouthernRailway] JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Attached is the outline of a presentation made at the RPM meeting at Cocoa Beach in 2016 by two excellent railroad historians, Noomi Peterson and Jim Murrie. Their contact information is shown on Page 2. This was an excellent presentation which is well documented and professionally done. They presented the FACTS with no apparent axe to grind. Perhaps someone in this group can forward this to a contact at the Smithsonian for their use. I think Ms. Peterson and Mr. Murrie would be very pleased to help get the facts to anyone who might inquire.
 
Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.
 
Ed Mims

moderated Re: JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Ed Mims
 

Michael Young,

 

I believe you need to know the date of the publication of the time table that the reserved seat statement was published and the date that segregation was ended. They might have over lapped. I do not have that information but do know about the time table wherein the notation you refer to was published. I do not have the time table with the bold face note.

 

My collection of public time tables and Official Guides is small but I do have a Winter 1962-1963 Central of Georgia public time table and it does not refer to reserved seats on the Nancy Hanks in any manner. The Winter 1959-1960 time table contains the sentence: “Deluxe Reclining Seat Coaches—Seats reserved for white passengers.” under the schedule for the NANCY HANKS. Sorry that I can’t offer more information. Perhaps someone on this list can tell us more.

 

The Southern Railway took control of the Central of Georgia in June, 1963 also.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Michael Young via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 10:13 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

 

In my 1963 ORG, the CofG has a boldface note in the Nancy Hanks schedule:  "Reserved Coach Seats for White Passengers Only."

 

Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.

 



-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Mims <wemims@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 9, 2019 9:36 am
Subject: [SouthernRailway] JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Attached is the outline of a presentation made at the RPM meeting at Cocoa Beach in 2016 by two excellent railroad historians, Noomi Peterson and Jim Murrie. Their contact information is shown on Page 2. This was an excellent presentation which is well documented and professionally done. They presented the FACTS with no apparent axe to grind. Perhaps someone in this group can forward this to a contact at the Smithsonian for their use. I think Ms. Peterson and Mr. Murrie would be very pleased to help get the facts to anyone who might inquire.

 

Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.

 

Ed Mims

 

moderated IN Case You Missed It

Ed Mims
 

moderated Re: IN Case You Missed It

David Payne
 


I hope everyone takes the time to do a search for "Spencer Crew" ...
DPayne


moderated Southern RailwayPassenger Car Specifications and Card Lists

George Eichelberger
 

One of several projects we can work on at the April (26 & 27) SRHA work session is to organize, scan and document our Southern RailwayPassenger Car Specifications and Card Lists. Most of the specs have been scanned but only a few of the Card Lists (drawing indexes for individual car series) have been scanned. The draft list of passenger specs are attached.

The specs and indexes for freight car drawings are scanned and have been extremely useful responding to questions from modelers and manufacturers. We need to complete the passenger cars to make it easier to find drawings. There have been several very nice passenger car kits from Bethlehem Car Works and others that need drawing packages like we did for the waffle box cars and 40' low side gons (both are available in the Grab)

We expect to have multiple work days at the archives so we can get as much done as possible before the SRHA convention and the archives formal opening on Saturday, June 1st. Send an email to archives@... if you plan to come to the work session or would like to go on some other days. There are plenty of projects to be done...we need your help getting things organized and for people to come to the convention. We will probably be working in the archives Friday- Sunday. The convention is the same weekend as the NMRA SER region convention at Chattanooga and TVRM so there will be plenty to do for both convention goers. Info and registration is on the SRHA web site www.srha.net.

Ike

moderated Structure Drawings in the SRHA Archives

George Eichelberger
 

I sent the attached drawing of the Hillsboro, NC depot to a prospective work session attendee yesterday. It reminded me that we have never posted an example of the Southern Railway structure drawings or photos to groups.io.

Digital files are arranged by state, city and sometimes milepost (water towers and bridges were not always in a town). While there are still many more to be scann and catalouged, the "Photos and Drawings by Location" file has 11,495 items in it. More than half are photos, followed by drawings then letters, memos and documentation on that location.

The file is 222.32 GB so putting it on-line, even if SRHA charged a moderate amount to download is not likely at this point. (The rolling stock file is 1.16TB and there are many other digital files.)

Working on the digital files, and doing more scanning, will be an important task during 2019. Coming to an archives work session is the best way to see and understand all of the digital and hard copy collections in the archives. The work session schedule is posted on the SRHA home page (www.srha.net). Someone is there other days during any month so if you can get to Chattanooga other times, send a note to archives@... and we'll do what we can. (Mainstay Suites has a good rate for TVRM if hyou plan to stay overnight.) 

Ike

moderated Decals For Southern Rebuilt Heavyweight Coaches Circa 1970's

bjarne@juno.com
 

Gents:  I have been looking for decals to letter the heavyweight rebuilt coaches that were a mainstay on the Piedmont and Trains 7/8.  Some of the Microscale diesel sets look like they might work.  Have any of you lettered a coach using the Microscale products?  If so, which Microscale set did you use?  Thanks for your help!

moderated Re: Decals For Southern Rebuilt Heavyweight Coaches Circa 1970's

George Eichelberger
 

The decal colors need to be checked but, actually, the diesel lettering is what was used on the lightweight and rebuilt passenger cars. When P-S was building the Southerner and Tennesseean trains, they wrote the Southern asking how to letter the cars. The Southern had not prepared sans serif lettering so someone at the railroad suggested simply using the E-6 lettering from EMC. That drawing was sent to Pullman and became the basis for the 7 inch “SOUTHERN” on the new cars and eventually for the smooth side rebuilds. (All documented in the SRHA archives.)

I’ve attached a section of drawing SP-3347 that shows the letterboard for rebuilt coaches. As is typical, the name is on the car center line.

There will be an archives work session at TVRM this Thursday-Saturday. Digging into the 1941 Southerner and Tennesseean files and drawings is one of the potential projects. Everyone is welcome to join us and help. Someone will be there by about 10:00 on Thursday morning and about 8:00 on Friday and Saturday morning. We usually stay until around 7:30 or so but we leave when we want.

Ike

moderated Re: Decals For Southern Rebuilt Heavyweight Coaches Circa 1970's

bjarne@juno.com
 

Thank you! I thought that the diesel lettering looked very similar. Now, I will need to take a hard look at the various Microscale decals to figure out what set works best.

moderated Re: Decals For Southern Rebuilt Heavyweight Coaches Circa 1970's

George Eichelberger
 

Please let the group know the result of your research.

A Southern VP saw a RF&P car at Richmond and noticed it had “press on” lettering. He wrote a memo asking why the Southern did not use that. His memo led to SR adopting 3M lettering for almost everything (but not freight cars!) There are references to the slightly different colors of the printed letters, how it reflected light, etc. Minor stuff I’m sure but you might notice some variation in the 7” lettering colors on other than stainless steel cars.

Ike

PS The 3M lettering had an unintended effect for modelers. Because it was “factory” made, the railroad did not worry about full size drawings to make stencils from so we have only placement drawings, not detailed lettering drawings that can be used to make decals. (Don’t use overall stencil placement drawings for any rolling stock to make decals! The draftsmen made no attempt to draw individual letters exactly because they knew the individual drawings provided that.)

This “issue” surfaced again when TVRM asked for lettering drawings when they painted their GP-38s and SD-40. As those used press on lettering, EMD did not make individual letter drawings. Of course, TVRM “got it right” as they almost always do (except maybe their first try at number board numerals for the GP-38).



On Apr 22, 2019, at 10:25 AM, bjarne@... wrote:

Thank you! I thought that the diesel lettering looked very similar. Now, I will need to take a hard look at the various Microscale decals to figure out what set works best.