Date   
moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

Bill Schafer
 

TVRM operates two ex-Central of Georgia Jim Crow coaches in regular service. TVRM 906 is a modernized heavyweight, and the partition is still intact (but the “white” and “colored” designations have been done away with). TVRM 907 is a lightweight Jim Crow coach, and the partition has been removed (but you can tell where it was if you look for it). Each car still has four bathrooms and each has a small plaque explaining what a “Jim Crow” coach is/was.

—Bill

Interior of TVRM 906


Plaque in TVRM 907

On Apr 8, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Bob P. <tomcatter.bob@...> wrote:

Just want to say, I'm learning a lot from these threads. Out of curiosity, I know a few other museums, like NCTM, have Southern Jim Crow cars in their collection; has anyone else restored one and opened it to visitors? Seems like it would be a good way to dispel some of the misconceptions we've discussed here.

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

Ed Mims
 

The Central of Georgia had two number series of coaches. The 500-series were referred to as partitioned coaches because they had a partition near the center in order to comply with the Jim Crow laws. Rest rooms of near equal size and with the same appointments were located in the four corners of the car (there might have been some slight variations car to car). To my knowledge there were never signs posted in these cars to designate “white” or “colored” ends. In addition, these cars were often used in regular service for white only and/or colored only depending upon the need. My guess is the conductor could decide which end for each race depending on the placement of the car in the train. Colored patrons were usually seated at the forward end of the train and a partitioned coach was used to separate the train by race. The 600-series cars were designated as “full coach” and in later years when modernized had large restrooms, women on one end and men on the opposite end. These cars, like the 500-series never had signs for racial designations.

 

In my memory the only passenger equipment referred to as a “Jim Crow“ car was the car with a center baggage compartment and a passenger section on each end to be used on local trains which carried freight and passengers. I don’t think either end was designated as “white” or “colored” as the car generally would not be turned at the ends of the run. The “colored” passengers would occupy the leading end on the car. The use of the name “Jim Crow” when referring to partitioned coaches is  relatively new.  

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Schafer
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2019 10:49 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

 

TVRM operates two ex-Central of Georgia Jim Crow coaches in regular service. TVRM 906 is a modernized heavyweight, and the partition is still intact (but the “white” and “colored” designations have been done away with). TVRM 907 is a lightweight Jim Crow coach, and the partition has been removed (but you can tell where it was if you look for it). Each car still has four bathrooms and each has a small plaque explaining what a “Jim Crow” coach is/was.

 

—Bill

 

Interior of TVRM 906

 

Plaque in TVRM 907



On Apr 8, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Bob P. <tomcatter.bob@...> wrote:

 

Just want to say, I'm learning a lot from these threads. Out of curiosity, I know a few other museums, like NCTM, have Southern Jim Crow cars in their collection; has anyone else restored one and opened it to visitors? Seems like it would be a good way to dispel some of the misconceptions we've discussed here.

 

moderated JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Ed Mims
 

Attached is the outline of a presentation made at the RPM meeting at Cocoa Beach in 2016 by two excellent railroad historians, Noomi Peterson and Jim Murrie. Their contact information is shown on Page 2. This was an excellent presentation which is well documented and professionally done. They presented the FACTS with no apparent axe to grind. Perhaps someone in this group can forward this to a contact at the Smithsonian for their use. I think Ms. Peterson and Mr. Murrie would be very pleased to help get the facts to anyone who might inquire.

 

Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.

 

Ed Mims

moderated Re: JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Michael Young
 

In my 1963 ORG, the CofG has a boldface note in the Nancy Hanks schedule:  "Reserved Coach Seats for White Passengers Only."

Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.
 



-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Mims <wemims@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 9, 2019 9:36 am
Subject: [SouthernRailway] JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Attached is the outline of a presentation made at the RPM meeting at Cocoa Beach in 2016 by two excellent railroad historians, Noomi Peterson and Jim Murrie. Their contact information is shown on Page 2. This was an excellent presentation which is well documented and professionally done. They presented the FACTS with no apparent axe to grind. Perhaps someone in this group can forward this to a contact at the Smithsonian for their use. I think Ms. Peterson and Mr. Murrie would be very pleased to help get the facts to anyone who might inquire.
 
Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.
 
Ed Mims

moderated Re: JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Ed Mims
 

Michael Young,

 

I believe you need to know the date of the publication of the time table that the reserved seat statement was published and the date that segregation was ended. They might have over lapped. I do not have that information but do know about the time table wherein the notation you refer to was published. I do not have the time table with the bold face note.

 

My collection of public time tables and Official Guides is small but I do have a Winter 1962-1963 Central of Georgia public time table and it does not refer to reserved seats on the Nancy Hanks in any manner. The Winter 1959-1960 time table contains the sentence: “Deluxe Reclining Seat Coaches—Seats reserved for white passengers.” under the schedule for the NANCY HANKS. Sorry that I can’t offer more information. Perhaps someone on this list can tell us more.

 

The Southern Railway took control of the Central of Georgia in June, 1963 also.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Michael Young via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 10:13 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

 

In my 1963 ORG, the CofG has a boldface note in the Nancy Hanks schedule:  "Reserved Coach Seats for White Passengers Only."

 

Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.

 



-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Mims <wemims@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 9, 2019 9:36 am
Subject: [SouthernRailway] JIM CROW AND THE RAILROADS

Attached is the outline of a presentation made at the RPM meeting at Cocoa Beach in 2016 by two excellent railroad historians, Noomi Peterson and Jim Murrie. Their contact information is shown on Page 2. This was an excellent presentation which is well documented and professionally done. They presented the FACTS with no apparent axe to grind. Perhaps someone in this group can forward this to a contact at the Smithsonian for their use. I think Ms. Peterson and Mr. Murrie would be very pleased to help get the facts to anyone who might inquire.

 

Note that the Central of Georgia was the first railroad to end segregation on passenger trains.

 

Ed Mims

 

moderated IN Case You Missed It

Ed Mims
 

moderated Re: IN Case You Missed It

David Payne
 


I hope everyone takes the time to do a search for "Spencer Crew" ...
DPayne


moderated Need gothic/block font decal artwork help

Jim King
 

Is Donnie Dixon’s web site still up?  If not, are his artwork files available somewhere? 

 

I’m finishing artwork for the upcoming O scale 41’6” low side gon kit and need some gothic/block font characters.  I’ve created the full-size road name, road numbers 0-9 and capy/ld lmt/lt wt characters from stenciling diagrams and field measurements on bay windows cabs during my various restoration projects over the past 6-ish years but would like to be able to import a single “font file” where I can just type the lines I want instead of having to place each character in Solidworks’ assembly file, then create a 2D file for my decal printer.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Need gothic/block font decal artwork help

O Fenton Wells
 

Jim I'd check with Hubert Mask of Mask Island decals  He does good work and is good to work with


On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:37 PM Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

Is Donnie Dixon’s web site still up?  If not, are his artwork files available somewhere? 

 

I’m finishing artwork for the upcoming O scale 41’6” low side gon kit and need some gothic/block font characters.  I’ve created the full-size road name, road numbers 0-9 and capy/ld lmt/lt wt characters from stenciling diagrams and field measurements on bay windows cabs during my various restoration projects over the past 6-ish years but would like to be able to import a single “font file” where I can just type the lines I want instead of having to place each character in Solidworks’ assembly file, then create a 2D file for my decal printer.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Need SOUTHERN block lettering height

Jim King
 

What is the height of SOUTHERN and main road number used on 41-6 low side gons?  I’ve guesstimated the height based on the carbody height but never have seen a stenciling diagram for this car.  I have letters and numbers designed, just need to verify height to wrap up decal artwork.

 

Does SRHA have a stenciling diagram for 57000- and 58000-series with block font?  I don’t have a drawing number.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Need SOUTHERN block lettering height

George Eichelberger
 

Jim:

Not a particularly “pretty” drawing. As the SR did with repaints, it is a “generic” drawing rather than one for different car series but the dimensions are readable. Always measuring up from the side sill and using the car’s center line provides for different car dimensions.

Please remember to credit SRHA.

Ike



On Apr 24, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

What is the height of SOUTHERN and main road number used on 41-6 low side gons?  I’ve guesstimated the height based on the carbody height but never have seen a stenciling diagram for this car.  I have letters and numbers designed, just need to verify height to wrap up decal artwork.
 
Does SRHA have a stenciling diagram for 57000- and 58000-series with block font?  I don’t have a drawing number.
 
Jim King
 

-- 
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Need SOUTHERN block lettering height

Jim King
 

Ike,

 

I can’t open this file, only copy it and can’t enlarge.  Please send directly to me as an attachment, not embedded in the email.  Thanks.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Need SOUTHERN block lettering height

Jim King
 

Ike … I went to the .IO web site and got the drawing that way.  No need to resend to me as attachment.  Outlook 365 is weird when it comes to attachments.  SRHA is being credited with MOST of the info I’m using to finish the O scale gon … just as I did with the HO and S kits from 10+ years ago.  Thanks for sending … this gives me everything I need.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Central of Georgia Material at the SRHA Archives

George Eichelberger
 

We probably have not mentioned it enough but because many people are not aware that the SRHA archives most likely contain the largest collection of organized CofG documents, and absolutely the largest collection of Central original drawings, posting a couple of items from the ICC Valuation study is in order.

The two attachments are from pages 77 and 79x from the field notes for Valuation Section 2 in Savannah. They show a photo of the Savannah CofG station and a sketch of the trainshed. The quality of the ICC photos is usually not very good but they may be the only record we have of their subjects from the 1916-1926 period. 

While the quality and detail of the sketches in the field notes vary depending on the crew that did them, some are literally works of art and detail. The crew that did the work on the "buildings" accounts for Val Sec 2 included: C.A. Purinton - "Pilot Eng.", Frank Donlevy - "Tapeman" and Richard W. Alger - "Jr. Architect". The examples are from their work.

Georgia Val Sections 1-5 will be completely scanned in a few days. They represent only a tiny part of the CofG materials at the SRHA archives at TVRM in Chattanooga. Everyone is welcome to come to our monthly third weekend work session. If you plan to go the TVRM on any other dates and you would like to visit the archives, send an email to archives@... and we will attempt to make arrangements. If several folks interested in the Central wouild like to organize a work session dedicated to the CofG materils, that can certainly be arranged.

Ike

moderated Passing of O.W. (Oscar) KImsey

George Eichelberger
 

I was just told that Oscar Kimsey passed away a few days ago. His funeral was this afternoon.

"OK", or a circle with a "K" inside was surely one of the giants of southeastern railroad photography. We will publish more in TIES but he told me how his Atlanta newspaper route went near Atlanta Terminal Station during and immediately after the war and how a relative gave him a good quality camera so he was taking important photos at a young(er) age. His friends included all of the well known photographers around the South and he exchanged negatives with photographers all over the country.

SRHA, and people interested in every railroad in the southeast, have Oscar to thank for his many thousands of photos. From the first time he located and called me when we lived in Florida, he was always generous with his (encyclopedic) railroad knowledge and photos. (The Southern 40' box car book would never have been published with access to his collection.)

His entire collection is at the SRHA archive at TVRM. We will continue to use and publish his work, always with a credit to "OK".

Ike

moderated Re: Passing of O.W. (Oscar) KImsey

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Oscar was such a nice guy to me.  This news is not surprising, but it is sad all the same.  

Many of you will not get the reference (back from rec.models.railroad usenet days when "Big John" was alive too), but it seems appropriate here:

"Take yer hat off son, that's the Southern going by."  And this time, the Southern's carrying "OK", so it's alright if your eyes glisten. We'll blame allergy season.

Dave

Sunday, April 28, 2019, 6:18:48 PM, you wrote:


I was just told that Oscar Kimsey passed away a few days ago. His funeral was this afternoon.

"OK", or a circle with a "K" inside was surely one of the giants of southeastern railroad photography. We will publish more in TIES but he told me how his Atlanta newspaper route went near Atlanta Terminal Station during and immediately after the war and how a relative gave him a good quality camera so he was taking important photos at a young(er) age. His friends included all of the well known photographers around the South and he exchanged negatives with photographers all over the country.

SRHA, and people interested in every railroad in the southeast, have Oscar to thank for his many thousands of photos. From the first time he located and called me when we lived in Florida, he was always generous with his (encyclopedic) railroad knowledge and photos. (The Southern 40' box car book would never have been published with access to his collection.)

His entire collection is at the SRHA archive at TVRM. We will continue to use and publish his work, always with a credit to "OK".

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

moderated Re: Passing of O.W. (Oscar) KImsey

Robert Hanson
 

When the Augusta area was in my sales territory, I would frequently spend an evening visiting with Oscar.  It was invariably an entertaining visit.

Oscar was very generous in allowing the use of many of his photos in my books.  In fact, the last time I spoke with him it was regarding the use of some of his material in a book that is currently in the works.  He did not hesitate to grant permission to use it.

Yessir.  Stand and uncover.  Oscar's leaving.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...>
To: George Eichelberger <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Apr 28, 2019 8:53 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Passing of O.W. (Oscar) KImsey

Oscar was such a nice guy to me.  This news is not surprising, but it is sad all the same.  

Many of you will not get the reference (back from rec.models.railroad usenet days when "Big John" was alive too), but it seems appropriate here:

"Take yer hat off son, that's the Southern going by."  And this time, the Southern's carrying "OK", so it's alright if your eyes glisten. We'll blame allergy season.

Dave

Sunday, April 28, 2019, 6:18:48 PM, you wrote:


I was just told that Oscar Kimsey passed away a few days ago. His funeral was this afternoon.

"OK", or a circle with a "K" inside was surely one of the giants of southeastern railroad photography. We will publish more in TIES but he told me how his Atlanta newspaper route went near Atlanta Terminal Station during and immediately after the war and how a relative gave him a good quality camera so he was taking important photos at a young(er) age. His friends included all of the well known photographers around the South and he exchanged negatives with photographers all over the country.

SRHA, and people interested in every railroad in the southeast, have Oscar to thank for his many thousands of photos. From the first time he located and called me when we lived in Florida, he was always generous with his (encyclopedic) railroad knowledge and photos. (The Southern 40' box car book would never have been published with access to his collection.)

His entire collection is at the SRHA archive at TVRM. We will continue to use and publish his work, always with a credit to "OK".

Ike



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

moderated Depot paint

milepost 131 <mp131.ghandrews@...>
 

I have more questions than answers when it comes to depot painting.

 

 

Depot painting:

 

the “best” documentation I’ve found is in Wiley’s book

Exterior

 

 

1925 – standardized green (similar to CNW green) window frames and doors yellow (similar to UP)

 

1945 medium gray with white trim

 

next paint- all gray

 

So that is a summary of Wiley’s knowledge.

 

 

 

When they started the “Montpelier Station” (VA) restoration they performed mass spec analysis. (I have a copy somewhere if anyone wants that drop me a note off-list)

 

I’ve examined period postcards and B&W images

 

it seems that there were depots with “yellow” (lighter color) above the “band” that was at window sill height- and green (below) Trim white. No doubt pre-1925 but some seem to have maintained That scheme after 1925 or maybe weren’t painted. <g>

 

I’m MOST interested in depots along the Murphy Branch and offer the following:

 

Addie (1963 Marsh) gray white trim

Andrews 1967 gray gray trim

early Balsam (two tone with white trim)

Balsam (1959-61 King) gray white trim

 

Bryson City (1975 King) white/tan brown trim

Bushnell photo (Clodfelter around 1920) is two tone with white trim

Bushnell (1943 TVA) green (maybe) white trim

Canton (early 1900’s King) yellow above, green below, white trim

 

 

Nantahala 1950 gray white trim

 

Whittier (early) two tone with white trim

 

So…. Since I model 1943 (specifically) I could guess “two tone/white trim

 

but even then I wonder whether it was always that.

 

I also have lots of questions about the depot at Bryson City:

 

Now the GSMRR own this structure and we know they have modified it and the freight section was modified earlier. And for me the back side (non-trackside) is critical as this shows on my layout.)

 

Backside It has several windows and a door that I question whether they are mods after 1943. I’ve yet to find any “floor plan” for Bryson City or photos of the back (RR folks always like the track <G>)

 

I’ll guess that this depot goes back to “WNCRR” days and have yet to discover any WNCRR documentation that would help with my mysteries.

 

Now all of that being said… I mentioned post cards. I’ve seen quite a few postcards of depots with the early “two tone” but even with that info we must remember… postcards were often created overseas and colors added or modified before printing by employees who might have never seen the depot.,

 

Anyone have any factual info to share?
I

Gordon Andrews

 

 

moderated Southern Budd Dining Car 3307

George Eichelberger
 

TVRM is in the process of purchasing Southern Budd dining car 3307 from Amtrak. The car is in basically the same condition as it was in Southern Railway service and will be shipped to TVRM in Chattanooga shortly. (An article will follow in TIES in the next couple of issues.) Purchasing 3307 by TVRM will preserve an interesting and important piece of Southern rolling stock that also makes business sense as the car will provide revenue from kitchen and dining car seating with other dining cars or in an all-Southern lightweight train consist.

The cost to purchase and move the car, plus two more non-Southern cars being donated to TVRM, is $35,000. If anyone is interested in helping, please consider donating to the purchase and moving cost. There is a "donation" section on the TVRM web site, https://www.tvrail.com/support-tvrm/donate. Contact me off list if I can help with any more information.

In addition to the Amtrak cars, two Southern low side gons have been purchased and will be trucked to Chattanooga. Both will be restored to full Southern paint and lettering and used in MoW service and photographers specials. After TVRM looking, for many years, to acquire a Southern business car, two (!) have become available at reasonable cost. With TVRM member and other donors' assistance, the museum will attempt to purchase both. As we all realize, as time passes obtaining Southern railway rolling stock that can be restored to museum quality become more difficult.

For anyone interested in preserving the history of the Southern, now is the time, and here is the opportunity!

Ike 

moderated Re: Southern Budd Diningh Car 3307

Dave Queener
 

Ike,

If I can assist TVRM with any 3D CAD or possibly wire EDM work, please let Tim Andrews know.

Yours,

Dave

On 5/8/2019 12:29 PM, George Eichelberger wrote:
TVRM is in the process of purchasing Southern Budd dining car 3307 from Amtrak. The car is in basically the same condition as it was in Southern Railway service and will be shipped to TVRM in Chattanooga shortly. (An article will follow in TIES in the next couple of issues.) Purchasing 3307 by TVRM will preserve an interesting and important piece of Southern rolling stock that also makes business sense as the car will provide revenue from kitchen and dining car seating with other dining cars or in an all-Southern lightweight train consist.

The cost to purchase and move the car, plus two more non-Southern cars being donated to TVRM, is $35,000. If anyone is interested in helping, please consider donating to the purchase and moving cost. There is a "donation" section on the TVRM web site, https://www.tvrail.com/support-tvrm/donate. Contact me off list if I can help with any more information.

In addition to the Amtrak cars, two Southern low side gons have been purchased and will be trucked to Chattanooga. Both will be restored to full Southern paint and lettering and used in MoW service and photographers specials. After TVRM looking, for many years, to acquire a Southern business car, two (!) have become available at reasonable cost. With TVRM member and other donors' assistance, the museum will attempt to purchase both. As we all realize, as time passes obtaining Southern railway rolling stock that can be restored to museum quality become more difficult.

For anyone interested in preserving the history of the Southern, now is the time, and here is the opportunity!

Ike 
-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
(865) 333-5712  www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com

Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
(865) 209-5654  www.StPaulPres.com