Date   

locked Re: Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

Ties ran an article on low side gons and most of the info Jim King published with his kits came from SRHA. (Jim is always very good with crediting material.)

Many people have heard my comments on ORERs before. They are far from a perfect data source!

I can’t say if other roads had the same attitude but the Southern did not always worry about the quantities in the ORERs. For example, if a series was being scrapped, there was no need to “count down” the number of cars left. When the last car was gone, the entire entry would be removed.

Those inaccuracies were for cars being purchased or rebuilt as well as scrapped. If cars were to be rebuilt/renumbered under an SCP, or purchased new, the entries would sometimes be made before the work was done or the cars delivered. The ORERs' only real use to the railroads was for dealing with interchanged cars. If car 123456 showed up in interchange, the ORER told the receiving railroad its details. If a car number was in the ORER but the car did not exist (scrapped/not delivered), it meant nothing.

There is at least one series of 40’ Southern box car rebuilds in ORERs that never existed. They were shown to have 70-ton trucks but were only rebuilt with 50-ton capy. THAT would be a serious problem in the RER because a receiving railroad could overload those cars because they relied on the published CAPY info.

The other issue I see with ORERS is how the entries aggregated cars with similar characteristics. A quantity could include cars from different orders/rebuilds as long as their AAR code and dimensions were the same (mol).

ORERS are good starting point references but I question their value for “deep” research.

Ike

PS Always confusing, the first “low side gons” by Southern classification were actually flat cars with low wooden sides. Yes, they were “gons” (116000 series?) but could be seen as flat cars with low sides.

PPS With Covid so much in the news, I really recommend Dave’s article in TIES on the Spanish Flu epidemic that was published some time ago.



On Apr 17, 2022, at 10:31 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

There's been comparatively a lot of history of Southern boxcars and even hoppers in the pre-WWII era, but the gondolas, and my favorite the low side gons, have had little attention paid.  I want to fix this starting with the low side versions.

 

I'm gathering data about the Southern's early low side gondola fleet, hopefully for an article in TIES (since I haven't found an article on the history of these cars yet).  Attached (if it goes through) is a PDF with my transcription of the ORER entries for years I have (fifteen years from 1901-1945).  I included the entries for any gondola with an inside height of less than 3'10".  Many were labeled "low side" as the kind in the ORER, others just appear to have low sides by dimension.

 

The first page of the attached PDF is a pivot table indicating the total number of cars in each series by available year for series having 25+ cars in a year (leaving out the "one off" car series).  The last five pages of the PDF list each ORER year with low side gondola car number series as rows (and not filtered by the minimum count). The entire listing is helpful to see things like when AGS, CNOTP, and other subsidiaries had some cars re-lettered Southern and renumbered.

 

Now I need to review the photos I have for these series to see what I can learn.  I doubt I will find much.  I have maybe 6 photos total of the 1924 built cars (non-rebuilt). The best are from the online archive of Duke University construction in 1929.  I've gone through all the 'Southern Rails' and the first three of nine binders of SRHA TIES magazines and I have found three more photos (two of which you cannot read lettering and can barely count the ribs to confirm the type and the other one is in the Speedwitch kit instructions). I also have the only photo found of the wood side gon on flat car (117500-117999 series introduced in 1930) from the SMMW kit instructions.  I did see Ed King's article on modeling the steel low sides in O scale, but he didn't have a prototype photo or information that I didn't already see.  Kind of interesting that we have at least two model kits and one model article, but no history article!

 

If anyone has more information or photos, especially of the 9 rib 10 panel low side steel gondolas (since they are more likely), please let me know.  I've yet to go through my other books (Prince, Webb, etc) to look for glimpses of these cars.  Most photos I've seen depict the cars after rebuilding to 11 ribs starting about 1943.

 

The 1940's rebuilt with 11 ribs and later built cars are pretty well documented (even with color photos), but data on the 1924 built and earlier steel, composite, or wood cars is much harder to find.  Hopefully I can get to the archives some day and look for drawings.  I need to resolve questions like: Which of these series were all wood, which composite, and which were steel? The SMMW kit history states that the 1924 steel cars were built with 9 ribs, Andrews trucks, and AB brakes.  The latter is hard to believe, given AB brakes were introduced in 1930 and not adopted by the AAR until 1934.  So I can believe the 1937 and later built cars plus the rebuilds had AB brakes, but I wonder if that was supposed to indicate "Split K" or K brakes for 1924 built cars instead.

 

Dave Bott

 

P.S.
I extracted all the Southern Railway entry page images from at least one ORER for each year I have obtained (1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1959). The first ten are no longer copyrighted and I obtained via Google books. The others are ones I have bought.  Great for research purposes. If anyone is interested in a set of just the 19 Southern entries (PDFs are 45mb in ZIP file), I can make available for download from personal Google or OneDrive.  Just let me know.  I would be interested in Southern entries for years I don't have prior to 1950.


<SOU-Low-Side-Gons-ORER-data-and-pivot-Bott-20220417.pdf>


locked Re: Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

Kyle Shannon
 

Hello Dave,

No promises that I’ll find anything you may not already have, but I’ll keep my eye out as I’m  going through our photo collections at the archive.

Kyle




On Sunday, April 17, 2022, 10:31 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

There's been comparatively a lot of history of Southern boxcars and even hoppers in the pre-WWII era, but the gondolas, and my favorite the low side gons, have had little attention paid.  I want to fix this starting with the low side versions.

 

I'm gathering data about the Southern's early low side gondola fleet, hopefully for an article in TIES (since I haven't found an article on the history of these cars yet).  Attached (if it goes through) is a PDF with my transcription of the ORER entries for years I have (fifteen years from 1901-1945).  I included the entries for any gondola with an inside height of less than 3'10".  Many were labeled "low side" as the kind in the ORER, others just appear to have low sides by dimension.

 

The first page of the attached PDF is a pivot table indicating the total number of cars in each series by available year for series having 25+ cars in a year (leaving out the "one off" car series).  The last five pages of the PDF list each ORER year with low side gondola car number series as rows (and not filtered by the minimum count). The entire listing is helpful to see things like when AGS, CNOTP, and other subsidiaries had some cars re-lettered Southern and renumbered.

 

Now I need to review the photos I have for these series to see what I can learn.  I doubt I will find much.  I have maybe 6 photos total of the 1924 built cars (non-rebuilt). The best are from the online archive of Duke University construction in 1929.  I've gone through all the 'Southern Rails' and the first three of nine binders of SRHA TIES magazines and I have found three more photos (two of which you cannot read lettering and can barely count the ribs to confirm the type and the other one is in the Speedwitch kit instructions). I also have the only photo found of the wood side gon on flat car (117500-117999 series introduced in 1930) from the SMMW kit instructions.  I did see Ed King's article on modeling the steel low sides in O scale, but he didn't have a prototype photo or information that I didn't already see.  Kind of interesting that we have at least two model kits and one model article, but no history article!

 

If anyone has more information or photos, especially of the 9 rib 10 panel low side steel gondolas (since they are more likely), please let me know.  I've yet to go through my other books (Prince, Webb, etc) to look for glimpses of these cars.  Most photos I've seen depict the cars after rebuilding to 11 ribs starting about 1943.

 

The 1940's rebuilt with 11 ribs and later built cars are pretty well documented (even with color photos), but data on the 1924 built and earlier steel, composite, or wood cars is much harder to find.  Hopefully I can get to the archives some day and look for drawings.  I need to resolve questions like: Which of these series were all wood, which composite, and which were steel? The SMMW kit history states that the 1924 steel cars were built with 9 ribs, Andrews trucks, and AB brakes.  The latter is hard to believe, given AB brakes were introduced in 1930 and not adopted by the AAR until 1934.  So I can believe the 1937 and later built cars plus the rebuilds had AB brakes, but I wonder if that was supposed to indicate "Split K" or K brakes for 1924 built cars instead.

 

Dave Bott

 

P.S.

I extracted all the Southern Railway entry page images from at least one ORER for each year I have obtained (1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1959). The first ten are no longer copyrighted and I obtained via Google books. The others are ones I have bought.  Great for research purposes. If anyone is interested in a set of just the 19 Southern entries (PDFs are 45mb in ZIP file), I can make available for download from personal Google or OneDrive.  Just let me know.  I would be interested in Southern entries for years I don't have prior to 1950.



-- 


Sent from David Bott's desktop pc


locked Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

A&Y Dave in MD
 

There's been comparatively a lot of history of Southern boxcars and even hoppers in the pre-WWII era, but the gondolas, and my favorite the low side gons, have had little attention paid.  I want to fix this starting with the low side versions.

 

I'm gathering data about the Southern's early low side gondola fleet, hopefully for an article in TIES (since I haven't found an article on the history of these cars yet).  Attached (if it goes through) is a PDF with my transcription of the ORER entries for years I have (fifteen years from 1901-1945).  I included the entries for any gondola with an inside height of less than 3'10".  Many were labeled "low side" as the kind in the ORER, others just appear to have low sides by dimension.

 

The first page of the attached PDF is a pivot table indicating the total number of cars in each series by available year for series having 25+ cars in a year (leaving out the "one off" car series).  The last five pages of the PDF list each ORER year with low side gondola car number series as rows (and not filtered by the minimum count). The entire listing is helpful to see things like when AGS, CNOTP, and other subsidiaries had some cars re-lettered Southern and renumbered.

 

Now I need to review the photos I have for these series to see what I can learn.  I doubt I will find much.  I have maybe 6 photos total of the 1924 built cars (non-rebuilt). The best are from the online archive of Duke University construction in 1929.  I've gone through all the 'Southern Rails' and the first three of nine binders of SRHA TIES magazines and I have found three more photos (two of which you cannot read lettering and can barely count the ribs to confirm the type and the other one is in the Speedwitch kit instructions). I also have the only photo found of the wood side gon on flat car (117500-117999 series introduced in 1930) from the SMMW kit instructions.  I did see Ed King's article on modeling the steel low sides in O scale, but he didn't have a prototype photo or information that I didn't already see.  Kind of interesting that we have at least two model kits and one model article, but no history article!

 

If anyone has more information or photos, especially of the 9 rib 10 panel low side steel gondolas (since they are more likely), please let me know.  I've yet to go through my other books (Prince, Webb, etc) to look for glimpses of these cars.  Most photos I've seen depict the cars after rebuilding to 11 ribs starting about 1943.

 

The 1940's rebuilt with 11 ribs and later built cars are pretty well documented (even with color photos), but data on the 1924 built and earlier steel, composite, or wood cars is much harder to find.  Hopefully I can get to the archives some day and look for drawings.  I need to resolve questions like: Which of these series were all wood, which composite, and which were steel? The SMMW kit history states that the 1924 steel cars were built with 9 ribs, Andrews trucks, and AB brakes.  The latter is hard to believe, given AB brakes were introduced in 1930 and not adopted by the AAR until 1934.  So I can believe the 1937 and later built cars plus the rebuilds had AB brakes, but I wonder if that was supposed to indicate "Split K" or K brakes for 1924 built cars instead.

 

Dave Bott

 

P.S.

I extracted all the Southern Railway entry page images from at least one ORER for each year I have obtained (1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1959). The first ten are no longer copyrighted and I obtained via Google books. The others are ones I have bought.  Great for research purposes. If anyone is interested in a set of just the 19 Southern entries (PDFs are 45mb in ZIP file), I can make available for download from personal Google or OneDrive.  Just let me know.  I would be interested in Southern entries for years I don't have prior to 1950.




locked Re: Iding Repair Shops

George Courtney
 

Thanks,  good info.

George Courtney


locked Re: Iding Repair Shops

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

These are the Southern system shops which I have listed; however it probably pays to note that freight cars were reweighed off line from time to time (for example when a car was repaired at another company's shops), so it would not be unusual to see reweigh data from other companies shops as well. 

Aidrian

ALX Alexandria
AUG Augusta
CHAT Chattanooga
CIN Cincinnatti
FN Finley 
HE Hayne Shops
IN or INM Inman Yard
JS Jacksonville
K Knoxville
MDN Meridian
MN Macon
N Norris Yard
SR Spencer

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 1:11 AM George Courtney via groups.io <gsc3=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Anyone have knowledge of how Southern repair shops were identified on freight cars during the steam-diesel era?  Say, 1946 to 1953.  I saw  a HO boxcar with the the letter N-48/  Which shoop would htat be.  How would Costner yard shops be identified on a hopper?

Thanks,
George Courtney


locked Iding Repair Shops

George Courtney
 

Anyone have knowledge of how Southern repair shops were identified on freight cars during the steam-diesel era?  Say, 1946 to 1953.  I saw  a HO boxcar with the the letter N-48/  Which shoop would htat be.  How would Costner yard shops be identified on a hopper?

Thanks,
George Courtney


locked Question re: two-aspect block signal at Kent Jct.

Paul Schmidt
 
Edited

On page 84 of “Appalachian Coal Hauler: Interstate Railroad's Mine Runs and Coal Trains,” there’s a photo of Southern 2182 on a mine run at Kent Jct. There’s a two-aspect colorlight signal to the right of the locomotive. I’m wondering if this is indeed a manually operated stop-proceed block signal protecting the branchline that began at Kent Junction? Instead of a two-aspect, manually operated dwarf semaphore signal that the train crew could lock to "stop," as I recently learned the Southern used on the St. Charles Branch, it’s a two-aspect colorlight signal atop a case serving the same purpose.

--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA


locked Southern Cabs on PC

Jason Greene
 

I was chatting with a friend who was asking about Southern cabs on other roads. It appears that the PC bought 13 of the 1946 cabs in 1971. They also inherited five from the Indianapolis Union Terminal. The only thing we can find says the IUT cabs were built in ‘47. Were they built for the IUT by Southern or were the bought second hand from the Southern? I can only find a few pictures online and they all have the distinctive Southern bracing around the handbrake. The ‘40s bay windows were not built with those so they must have been through the Southern rebuild program.

Can anyone explain the story of how the 18 ended up above the Mason-Dixon Line? Did anyone them last long enough on Conrail to come home on NS or onto the CSX roster? Seems unlikely but who knows.

Jason Greene


locked Passing of Jim Wrinn

Cohen Bob
 

WAUKESHA, Wis. — Jim Wrinn, who aspired since his youth to be the editor of Trains magazine and served in the role for more than 17 years, died at home on March 30, 2022, after a valiant 14-month battle with pancreatic cancer. He was 61.

Wrinn’s longevity in the editor’s role was second only to that of the legendary David P. Morgan, who led the magazine for more than 33 years and died in 1990 at age 62. Morgan’s editorship and writings deeply influenced Wrinn, who began reading Trains in 1967 at age 6.

History left it to Wrinn to preside over a challenging, transitional era for Trains, which Kalmbach Media predecessor Kalmbach Publishing Co. launched in November 1940. As editor in chief, Wrinn was fortunate to serve generations of readers who grew up on the print magazine while at the same time broadening the magazine’s appeal to a new digitally oriented audience.

Wrinn oversaw numerous initiatives that took Trains in new directions, including expanded online news coverage; a series of podcasts; a large catalog of digital video programing; a robust schedule of Trains-branded railroad tours, excursions, and events; and numerous projects to support railroad preservation. His tenure included a gala celebration of the 75th anniversary of the magazine in Milwaukee in November 2016, attended by hundreds of loyal readers.

Wrinn also showed a flair for the big moment, capitalizing on important news developments and effectively using a variety of media platforms. Case in point: the revival of Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 “Big Boy” No. 4014. Over the course of three years, Wrinn oversaw blanket coverage that included online reporting and numerous articles in Trains; two Big Boy special issues; live video updates from the field; and updates from the 4014’s coming-out party at Ogden, Utah, in May 2019. It all culminated in the book “Union Pacific’s Big Boys,” published by Kalmbach that same year with an introduction by the editor himself.

Becoming the editor of Trains was an idea planted by Wrinn’s first college advisor, who in 1979 asked the young journalism student what his dream job would be. Wrinn’s parents had already encouraged his railroad journalism by giving him a 35mm camera in 1977 and supporting numerous trips to see, ride, and photograph railroads.

Wrinn was born March 21, 1961, in the mountain town of Franklin, N.C., and spent his childhood there. He studied journalism at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, where he worked for the college newspaper, the Daily Tar Heel. After graduating he worked at daily newspapers in Gastonia, N.C., and Fayetteville, N.C., before joining the staff at The Charlotte Observer, one of the South’s leading newspapers, where he worked 1986-2004 in roles ranging from regional reporter to weekend city desk editor.

He also wrote or co-authored five railroad books, including “Steam’s Camelot,” a definitive history of the steam programs of the Southern Railway and successor Norfolk Southern, published in September 2000 by TLC Publishing.

Wrinn’s first photo in Trains was published in the October 1982 issue, appropriately a news photo of Graham County Railroad Shay No. 1925, a touchstone locomotive throughout his life. His first byline appeared in December 1989, a news story about the effects of Hurricane Hugo on Southeastern railroads the previous September. He went on to write numerous features before joining the staff on Oct. 27, 2004, a significant date given Trains’ (and Kalmbach’s) celebrated address at 1027 N. Seventh Street in downtown Milwaukee.

His home state of North Carolina held a special place in Wrinn’s heart, something he conveyed regularly to his readers. As a writer, he was never more touching than in his love letter to the former Southern Railway’s famous Loops on the line between Old Fort and Ridgecrest, 13 miles of scenic but challenging railroad, now part of Norfolk Southern’s Piedmont Division. His story “The Loops at Old Fort” appeared in the September 2006 issue.

“Because Old Fort grade is situated between Saluda and the Clinchfield, I often think of it as if it were a middle child,” wrote Wrinn. “It doesn’t demand attention like the daredevil, and it’s not graceful like the athlete. Old Fort is somewhere in between, doing what it does without drawing attention to itself — even though it should.”

Never content simply to observe from the journalistic sidelines, Wrinn was actively involved in railroad historical preservation, especially at the North Carolina Museum of Transportation in Spencer, where he volunteered since 1986. He recently served as a vice president at the North Carolina Transportation Museum Foundation.

Wrinn’s passing is being keenly felt across railroading, especially among the many writers, photographers, and professional railroaders with whom he collaborated. Theirs was a special kinship, born equally of a love of railroading and storytelling. One of them is Wick Moorman, former CEO at Amtrak and chairman of Norfolk Southern, as well as a longtime friend of Wrinn’s.

“When I first met Jim years ago, we immediately hit it off, not only because of our shared interest in the railroad industry but also because of our strong affinity for the Southern Railway,” said Moorman. “When Jim became editor of Trains, we all felt that he would do an excellent job, and, if anything, he exceeded those expectations. His passing is a loss not only to all of us who knew him, but also to everyone who has a passion, either personal or professional or both, for railroads.”

From the writer’s perspective comes this from Fred W. Frailey, for much of Wrinn’s era a columnist and blogger for Trains: “Every writer wants an editor, a boss, who says yes,” said Frailey. “Forget what ‘yes’ means — it can mean anything. Jim Wrinn always said ‘yes,’ even when it was no because he made it seem like yes. I love the guy.”

Similar encomiums come from Ron Flanary, one of the magazine’s most prolific contributors and someone with similar regional roots.

“Jim and I shared more than a passion for railroading, we were close friends and native Appalachians — a pedigree we shared with great pride,” recalls Flanary. “Our verbal exchanges were always relaxed, as we shared an accent that dates to Shakespeare and was recognized by language scholars for its authenticity and wit. Jim was an exceptional writer, in the tradition of the late David P. Morgan.”

One of Wrinn’s oldest friends is Jackson McQuigg, currently vice president-properties at the Atlanta History Center. “No one could make friends like Jim,” says McQuigg. “With his slightly sideways smile and a folksy North Carolina mountains twang in his voice, Jim could befriend anyone — and he did, from Fortune 500 railroad bosses to dyed-in-the-wool devotees of the humblest of short lines. Throughout his life, Jim also proved that he could connect all of us through his approachable writing and energetic preservation work.”

Jim Wrinn was proud to be part of a long line of Trains editors and said so in a candid self-assessment published in 2009. “I could not write like Morgan,” wrote Wrinn. “I could not be a diesel locomotive expert like Dave Ingles, I could not write as eloquently as Kevin P. Keefe, I could not be an industry insider like Mark Hemphill. But I could bring great enthusiasm to the job, a great love for the subject, and the passion and curiosity of a journalist. The other guys put together fantastic issues of Trains, but nobody ever had a better time in this job than me.”

Wrinn was proud that fellow staff members were friends as well as colleagues, and he admired working railroaders for their tireless efforts. He was proud of his co-workers who graduated to work at other titles with Kalmbach Media, and those who went to work in the railroad business and other industries.

“I believe we have left Trains better than we found it, and in the hands of great journalists who will carry on the tradition and make it ever greater,” Wrinn said. “Trains is a great brand for more than 80 years, and it will continue as long as steel wheels on steel rails fascinate.”

Wrinn is survived by his wife, Catherine Kratville-Wrinn, their “raildog” Millie, numerous cousins, and many close friends whom he often said he considered to be the brothers or sisters or children he never had.



locked LAST reminder of the NEXT Timonium, Maryland train show on April 2-3, 2022

Cohen Bob
 


Just a little reminder of the NEXT Timonium, Maryland train show in suburban Baltimore, MD. on April 2-3, 2022


That's just 3 days away and this is the rescheduled date, originally slated for later in the month.

It will be at the sprawling Timonium Fairgrounds, and has easy access from either the Light Rail OR Interstate 83, just north of the Baltimore beltway, I-695.

Plenty of parking is also available and if you like OTB (off-track betting) for the ponies, you can go under the grandstand and play the them if you so desire. Personally I like the better odds of quality merchandise at negotiable prices.

There will be hundreds of tables, a bunch of modular layouts from various groups and the usual White Elephant table where one can be a party to the whole reason to go to these things: recycling.

Among the many items available from the many dealers around the rooms: books, magazines (both current and heritage type), videos, railroadianna, models, parts, and who knows what else one might encounter while there.

All the popular gauges will be represented: G, 1, O, O-27, S, HO, N, HON3, tt (?), and who knows what else? Plenty of narrow gauge materials and information should also be for sale.

There are often a number of regional railroad historical societies present also. Check 'em out when you can.

Yes, There is an admission fee but it is good for both days and families can get a group rate upon entering together. The hours are 9-5 Saturday with one-way traffic starting at 4 and Sunday hours are 10-4. If you go to the website you can get a discount by purchasing in advance and then get your wristband when you arrive.

Hope to see you there. The weather should be spectacular for us.


Bob Cohen


locked My SRR Painting Diagram (Illustration in Color)

Donnie Dixon
 

Guys, the link below will take you to my SRR Passenger Car Lettering and Paint diagram for Steam Locos.

https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-34059780/documents/de30e2278cbf493ab8425da61986cc57/SR%20Steam%20Passenger%20Loco%20Painting%20Diagrams%208%2021.pdf

On 3/28/2022 10:28 PM, Donnie Dixon via groups.io wrote:


locked Re: SOU S2 2218 Photo Chronology Verification

David Friedlander
 

Thanks Bob for the extra bit of history on the photographers and these units.  Now to replicate what I see in Warren's photo.

David Friedlander

On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 2:14 AM Robert Graham <rgraham2@...> wrote:
Pretty easy, David. The Warren Calloway photo appears to be the earliest. The Tom Sink and G.M. McDonald photos were both made the same day. Those 2 gents used to be close friends and traveled frequently together. Just different angles of the sane subject on the same trip. SOU ALCO S2's were all retired by 1972, and the SOU 2218 made by Sink & McDonald has been somewhat freshly painted. In case doubters show up, I knew and also traveled with all 3 men at one time or another during this same time period. AS for location, SOU switch engines tended to be very provincial in their assignments and 2218 was usually in Spartanburg or close environs at the end of its service life. I checked my collection and I have a shot of SOU 2218 made in Spartanburg SC in Oct 1971, looking essentially the same as the Sink/McDonald photos, and it was retired just a few months later in early 1972. FWIW, the last SOU S2 I shot was SOU 2220 in Greensboro NC in Dec 1971.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "David Friedlander"
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday March 15 2022 11:36:28PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] SOU S2 2218 Photo Chronology Verification

Hi all,

I'm getting some models ready for the Valley Forge RPM.

I've finally come back around to my model of Alco S2 2218 I did many years ago and want to weather it.  Went looking for photos and found some good ones in my era online:
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/switchers/sou2218.html
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/switchers/sou_2218_union_sc_32771.jpg
https://railpictures.net/photo/343840/

The interesting thing here is that all of these photos claim they are in March of 1971.

Photo 2 and 3 are basically the unit in more or less the same location. I honestly think one of them has the location mislabeled, but I don't know enough about either to know whether Union or Spartanburg is the correct location. It doesn't matter for my purposes, so I won't waste brain power there.

However if you compare photos 1 and 3, you'll see vastly different weathering and some spotting details differences:
-In Photo 1 - Along the carbody are white markings everywhere, perhaps some sort of residue from phosphate or anti-snow liquid residue. None of that exists in Photo 3, and while one could think the unit was cleaned, the carbody still looks unwashed to me.
-In Photo 1, the stack is still unpainted metal/aluminum in color with exhaust residue at the top. In Photo 3, the stack looks to be repainted black and is equally weathered near the top (or maybe they just painted right over the caked on exhaust).
-In Photo 1, there is some good rusting on the cab roof corner closest to the photographer. Photo 3 - not there, but either repainted, or a precursor to rust (the latter makes less sense since this unit was traded in in 1972)
-If you compare the font of the numberboards, they also look different across Photos 1 and 3. It would be my opinion that the font shown in Photo 1 is earlier than Photo 3.
-Photo 1 has the forward cab windows with a yellowish tint.( I'm guessing caused by the exhaust.) Not sure on Photo 3.

I want to say that Photo 1 is earlier than Photos 2/3 due to the color of the stack and the font on the numberboards. I'm guessing it was indeed shopped (albeit mainly cleaning and some light painting) sometime in the middle of March 1971 and this is sort of a before and after. It does sort of surprise me that they cleaned this unit up a year before it was traded into EMD.  Anyone else have a better idea of the chronology of events here? Perhaps Photo 1 is even earlier than 1971, though I highly doubt Warren would label it with the wrong date.

If Photo 1 is indeed earlier than Photo 3, I'd prefer to use it as my weathering reference. Any idea of the best way to model all of those white splatters across the carbody?

Thanks,
David Friedlander
Columbia,MD


locked Re: Rapido SOU GP38

mike turner
 

Has there been any word about whether Rapido will be doing the early (1969) as-delivered GP38's?

--
Mike Turner
MP-Z35


locked Re: SOU S2 2218 Photo Chronology Verification

Robert Graham
 

Pretty easy, David. The Warren Calloway photo appears to be the earliest. The Tom Sink and G.M. McDonald photos were both made the same day. Those 2 gents used to be close friends and traveled frequently together. Just different angles of the sane subject on the same trip. SOU ALCO S2's were all retired by 1972, and the SOU 2218 made by Sink & McDonald has been somewhat freshly painted. In case doubters show up, I knew and also traveled with all 3 men at one time or another during this same time period. AS for location, SOU switch engines tended to be very provincial in their assignments and 2218 was usually in Spartanburg or close environs at the end of its service life. I checked my collection and I have a shot of SOU 2218 made in Spartanburg SC in Oct 1971, looking essentially the same as the Sink/McDonald photos, and it was retired just a few months later in early 1972. FWIW, the last SOU S2 I shot was SOU 2220 in Greensboro NC in Dec 1971.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "David Friedlander"
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday March 15 2022 11:36:28PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] SOU S2 2218 Photo Chronology Verification

Hi all,

I'm getting some models ready for the Valley Forge RPM.

I've finally come back around to my model of Alco S2 2218 I did many years ago and want to weather it.  Went looking for photos and found some good ones in my era online:
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/switchers/sou2218.html
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/switchers/sou_2218_union_sc_32771.jpg
https://railpictures.net/photo/343840/

The interesting thing here is that all of these photos claim they are in March of 1971.

Photo 2 and 3 are basically the unit in more or less the same location. I honestly think one of them has the location mislabeled, but I don't know enough about either to know whether Union or Spartanburg is the correct location. It doesn't matter for my purposes, so I won't waste brain power there.

However if you compare photos 1 and 3, you'll see vastly different weathering and some spotting details differences:
-In Photo 1 - Along the carbody are white markings everywhere, perhaps some sort of residue from phosphate or anti-snow liquid residue. None of that exists in Photo 3, and while one could think the unit was cleaned, the carbody still looks unwashed to me.
-In Photo 1, the stack is still unpainted metal/aluminum in color with exhaust residue at the top. In Photo 3, the stack looks to be repainted black and is equally weathered near the top (or maybe they just painted right over the caked on exhaust).
-In Photo 1, there is some good rusting on the cab roof corner closest to the photographer. Photo 3 - not there, but either repainted, or a precursor to rust (the latter makes less sense since this unit was traded in in 1972)
-If you compare the font of the numberboards, they also look different across Photos 1 and 3. It would be my opinion that the font shown in Photo 1 is earlier than Photo 3.
-Photo 1 has the forward cab windows with a yellowish tint.( I'm guessing caused by the exhaust.) Not sure on Photo 3.

I want to say that Photo 1 is earlier than Photos 2/3 due to the color of the stack and the font on the numberboards. I'm guessing it was indeed shopped (albeit mainly cleaning and some light painting) sometime in the middle of March 1971 and this is sort of a before and after. It does sort of surprise me that they cleaned this unit up a year before it was traded into EMD.  Anyone else have a better idea of the chronology of events here? Perhaps Photo 1 is even earlier than 1971, though I highly doubt Warren would label it with the wrong date.

If Photo 1 is indeed earlier than Photo 3, I'd prefer to use it as my weathering reference. Any idea of the best way to model all of those white splatters across the carbody?

Thanks,
David Friedlander
Columbia,MD


locked SOU S2 2218 Photo Chronology Verification

David Friedlander
 

Hi all,

I'm getting some models ready for the Valley Forge RPM.

I've finally come back around to my model of Alco S2 2218 I did many years ago and want to weather it.  Went looking for photos and found some good ones in my era online:
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/switchers/sou2218.html
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/switchers/sou_2218_union_sc_32771.jpg
https://railpictures.net/photo/343840/

The interesting thing here is that all of these photos claim they are in March of 1971.

Photo 2 and 3 are basically the unit in more or less the same location. I honestly think one of them has the location mislabeled, but I don't know enough about either to know whether Union or Spartanburg is the correct location. It doesn't matter for my purposes, so I won't waste brain power there.

However if you compare photos 1 and 3, you'll see vastly different weathering and some spotting details differences:
-In Photo 1 - Along the carbody are white markings everywhere, perhaps some sort of residue from phosphate or anti-snow liquid residue. None of that exists in Photo 3, and while one could think the unit was cleaned, the carbody still looks unwashed to me.
-In Photo 1, the stack is still unpainted metal/aluminum in color with exhaust residue at the top. In Photo 3, the stack looks to be repainted black and is equally weathered near the top (or maybe they just painted right over the caked on exhaust).
-In Photo 1, there is some good rusting on the cab roof corner closest to the photographer. Photo 3 - not there, but either repainted, or a precursor to rust (the latter makes less sense since this unit was traded in in 1972)
-If you compare the font of the numberboards, they also look different across Photos 1 and 3. It would be my opinion that the font shown in Photo 1 is earlier than Photo 3.
-Photo 1 has the forward cab windows with a yellowish tint.( I'm guessing caused by the exhaust.) Not sure on Photo 3.

I want to say that Photo 1 is earlier than Photos 2/3 due to the color of the stack and the font on the numberboards. I'm guessing it was indeed shopped (albeit mainly cleaning and some light painting) sometime in the middle of March 1971 and this is sort of a before and after. It does sort of surprise me that they cleaned this unit up a year before it was traded into EMD.  Anyone else have a better idea of the chronology of events here? Perhaps Photo 1 is even earlier than 1971, though I highly doubt Warren would label it with the wrong date.

If Photo 1 is indeed earlier than Photo 3, I'd prefer to use it as my weathering reference. Any idea of the best way to model all of those white splatters across the carbody?

Thanks,
David Friedlander
Columbia,MD


locked Re: Call for Clinicians - Joint SRHA/L&NHS Convention and Prototype Modelers meet at TVRM

wjohns19@...
 

I would like to know if you have elevation drawings


locked I am looking for a drawing of the Southern Railway A7 CLass built by baldwin

wjohns19@...
 

I am loking for the alco elevation drawing, please help, as I want to engrave thedrawing in brass and attach it to Southern Railway 1643 (now Morehead and Northfork 12) at Age of steam


locked Call for Clinicians - Joint SRHA/L&NHS Convention and Prototype Modelers meet at TVRM

George Eichelberger
 

Planning continues for the joint SRHA/L&NHS Convention and Prototype Modelers meet at TVRM on Sept 29, 30 and Oct 1. (The L&NHS has made arrangements for good hotel rates.)

The session, at TVRM Grand Junction, will include clinics, a model display, the model railroad layout in the TVRM headquarters building, visits and access to the SRHA and L&NHS archives, a TVRM shop tour, rides behind steam on TVRM, a preview of the new TVRM exhibits building and railfanning in the Chattanooga area with more activities, including for spouses, still to be organized. Details will follow as planning proceeds. (For anyone wants to do research, or simply visit, the archives will be open on Thursday and possibly Sunday morning.)

The clinics will include prototype, historical and modeling subjects with several using the TVRM rolling stock collection as “presentation aids”.

If anyone is interested in presenting a clinic on any of those subjects, please contact archives@... and let us know.

Ike


locked Re: Work Trains on Southern's Appalachia Division

Daniel Bourque
 

Stephen,

Great info—thanks for sharing! I’m trying to imagine an N&W derrick squeezing through the tunnels between St Paul and Norton that were too tight to handle plate C cars—might have been some sparks flying on that move!

Dan



On Mar 10, 2022, at 10:22 AM, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote:



George, While I did not start to work on the Appalachia Division until the early 70's, The patterns should have been the same.  Yes, the Div. HQ originally on the V&SW/S Ry was in Bristol, and the connection to the East End of the A Line of the Knoxville Div. was via the Scott St. Connection to N&W, west of the depot.  The Bristol Yard was a joint operation, but I suspect but cannot confirm that the yard crews were N&W, and it would have been more costly to come on-line at Bulls Gap unless the eqpt came off the N&W.  The SA&O line continuing into NC did not connect with anything useful for this purpose and had been flooded out and removed by that time except for two miles further into Bristol.  The direct connection with the Knoxville Div. was at Bulls Gap, either to Sevier Yd. or Asheville via Leadville.  Having said all that the driver of the operation would have been (and was in my time there) where the train & eqpt. came from.   Unless the eqpt was delivered via N&W, such as a Sperry Car or Ballast Cleaner, it would have come from Knoxville Div., mainly from the direction of Sevier Yd., but possibly also from Asheville, thus it would have come out of Bulls Gap.  The Scott St. Conn. in Bristol was in the middle of the street to connect to a wye switch just west of the wye on N&W, and more conducive for Interchange of cuts of cars rather than a ballast train.  But keep in mind that coal was still handled via Bristol to Interchange with N&W for Saltville, but that was in the Bristol Local from Appalachia - and stopped after the April '70 flood took out the line east of Moccasin Gap.  I know that our ballast trains came from Stockbridge Ga., so they came via Knoxville, as did rail trains from the Inman Fab. Plant.  Ties came in tie cars or gons from Southern Wood Preserving/Chattanooga in regular trains the same way.  The spray train & Sperry Car (which I ran), and most other such trains were first used on the Knoxville Div., and generally came to us on a Friday (we got them after the first finished the Knoxville Div. and that meant that we started work Friday afternoon through the weekend - fun.     Appalachia only had a small Derrick that would have come out of Appalachia, so major derailments often used the Knoxville Derrick via Bulls Gap, and sometimes "borrowed" the N&W Derrick, either through Bristol or Norton (IRR).  General work trains such as tie unloading, or pickup came from whatever location was most convenient and the eqpt. was staged. If we were unloading ties east of Dan'l Boone we would likely have the train come up from BG, or the night before and tie up closer to the work.  Any work on the west end would come out of Appalachia, including the TB/St. Charles Line.  While I never T&S'ed the Bristol Line, I would assume that for work closer to Bristol they would move the eqpt to Bristol and start unloading or pickup from there.  If you want more, just ask.


locked Re: Work Trains on Southern's Appalachia Division

Stephen Warner
 

George, While I did not start to work on the Appalachia Division until the early 70's, The patterns should have been the same.  Yes, the Div. HQ originally on the V&SW/S Ry was in Bristol, and the connection to the East End of the A Line of the Knoxville Div. was via the Scott St. Connection to N&W, west of the depot.  The Bristol Yard was a joint operation, but I suspect but cannot confirm that the yard crews were N&W, and it would have been more costly to come on-line at Bulls Gap unless the eqpt came off the N&W.  The SA&O line continuing into NC did not connect with anything useful for this purpose and had been flooded out and removed by that time except for two miles further into Bristol.  The direct connection with the Knoxville Div. was at Bulls Gap, either to Sevier Yd. or Asheville via Leadville.  Having said all that the driver of the operation would have been (and was in my time there) where the train & eqpt. came from.   Unless the eqpt was delivered via N&W, such as a Sperry Car or Ballast Cleaner, it would have come from Knoxville Div., mainly from the direction of Sevier Yd., but possibly also from Asheville, thus it would have come out of Bulls Gap.  The Scott St. Conn. in Bristol was in the middle of the street to connect to a wye switch just west of the wye on N&W, and more conducive for Interchange of cuts of cars rather than a ballast train.  But keep in mind that coal was still handled via Bristol to Interchange with N&W for Saltville, but that was in the Bristol Local from Appalachia - and stopped after the April '70 flood took out the line east of Moccasin Gap.  I know that our ballast trains came from Stockbridge Ga., so they came via Knoxville, as did rail trains from the Inman Fab. Plant.  Ties came in tie cars or gons from Southern Wood Preserving/Chattanooga in regular trains the same way.  The spray train & Sperry Car (which I ran), and most other such trains were first used on the Knoxville Div., and generally came to us on a Friday (we got them after the first finished the Knoxville Div. and that meant that we started work Friday afternoon through the weekend - fun.     Appalachia only had a small Derrick that would have come out of Appalachia, so major derailments often used the Knoxville Derrick via Bulls Gap, and sometimes "borrowed" the N&W Derrick, either through Bristol or Norton (IRR).  General work trains such as tie unloading, or pickup came from whatever location was most convenient and the eqpt. was staged. If we were unloading ties east of Dan'l Boone we would likely have the train come up from BG, or the night before and tie up closer to the work.  Any work on the west end would come out of Appalachia, including the TB/St. Charles Line.  While I never T&S'ed the Bristol Line, I would assume that for work closer to Bristol they would move the eqpt to Bristol and start unloading or pickup from there.  If you want more, just ask.

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