Date   

locked Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

A&Y Dave in MD
 

There's been comparatively a lot of history of Southern boxcars and even hoppers in the pre-WWII era, but the gondolas, and my favorite the low side gons, have had little attention paid.  I want to fix this starting with the low side versions.

 

I'm gathering data about the Southern's early low side gondola fleet, hopefully for an article in TIES (since I haven't found an article on the history of these cars yet).  Attached (if it goes through) is a PDF with my transcription of the ORER entries for years I have (fifteen years from 1901-1945).  I included the entries for any gondola with an inside height of less than 3'10".  Many were labeled "low side" as the kind in the ORER, others just appear to have low sides by dimension.

 

The first page of the attached PDF is a pivot table indicating the total number of cars in each series by available year for series having 25+ cars in a year (leaving out the "one off" car series).  The last five pages of the PDF list each ORER year with low side gondola car number series as rows (and not filtered by the minimum count). The entire listing is helpful to see things like when AGS, CNOTP, and other subsidiaries had some cars re-lettered Southern and renumbered.

 

Now I need to review the photos I have for these series to see what I can learn.  I doubt I will find much.  I have maybe 6 photos total of the 1924 built cars (non-rebuilt). The best are from the online archive of Duke University construction in 1929.  I've gone through all the 'Southern Rails' and the first three of nine binders of SRHA TIES magazines and I have found three more photos (two of which you cannot read lettering and can barely count the ribs to confirm the type and the other one is in the Speedwitch kit instructions). I also have the only photo found of the wood side gon on flat car (117500-117999 series introduced in 1930) from the SMMW kit instructions.  I did see Ed King's article on modeling the steel low sides in O scale, but he didn't have a prototype photo or information that I didn't already see.  Kind of interesting that we have at least two model kits and one model article, but no history article!

 

If anyone has more information or photos, especially of the 9 rib 10 panel low side steel gondolas (since they are more likely), please let me know.  I've yet to go through my other books (Prince, Webb, etc) to look for glimpses of these cars.  Most photos I've seen depict the cars after rebuilding to 11 ribs starting about 1943.

 

The 1940's rebuilt with 11 ribs and later built cars are pretty well documented (even with color photos), but data on the 1924 built and earlier steel, composite, or wood cars is much harder to find.  Hopefully I can get to the archives some day and look for drawings.  I need to resolve questions like: Which of these series were all wood, which composite, and which were steel? The SMMW kit history states that the 1924 steel cars were built with 9 ribs, Andrews trucks, and AB brakes.  The latter is hard to believe, given AB brakes were introduced in 1930 and not adopted by the AAR until 1934.  So I can believe the 1937 and later built cars plus the rebuilds had AB brakes, but I wonder if that was supposed to indicate "Split K" or K brakes for 1924 built cars instead.

 

Dave Bott

 

P.S.

I extracted all the Southern Railway entry page images from at least one ORER for each year I have obtained (1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1959). The first ten are no longer copyrighted and I obtained via Google books. The others are ones I have bought.  Great for research purposes. If anyone is interested in a set of just the 19 Southern entries (PDFs are 45mb in ZIP file), I can make available for download from personal Google or OneDrive.  Just let me know.  I would be interested in Southern entries for years I don't have prior to 1950.




locked Re: Iding Repair Shops

George Courtney
 

Thanks,  good info.

George Courtney


locked Re: Iding Repair Shops

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

These are the Southern system shops which I have listed; however it probably pays to note that freight cars were reweighed off line from time to time (for example when a car was repaired at another company's shops), so it would not be unusual to see reweigh data from other companies shops as well. 

Aidrian

ALX Alexandria
AUG Augusta
CHAT Chattanooga
CIN Cincinnatti
FN Finley 
HE Hayne Shops
IN or INM Inman Yard
JS Jacksonville
K Knoxville
MDN Meridian
MN Macon
N Norris Yard
SR Spencer

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 1:11 AM George Courtney via groups.io <gsc3=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Anyone have knowledge of how Southern repair shops were identified on freight cars during the steam-diesel era?  Say, 1946 to 1953.  I saw  a HO boxcar with the the letter N-48/  Which shoop would htat be.  How would Costner yard shops be identified on a hopper?

Thanks,
George Courtney


locked Iding Repair Shops

George Courtney
 

Anyone have knowledge of how Southern repair shops were identified on freight cars during the steam-diesel era?  Say, 1946 to 1953.  I saw  a HO boxcar with the the letter N-48/  Which shoop would htat be.  How would Costner yard shops be identified on a hopper?

Thanks,
George Courtney


locked Question re: two-aspect block signal at Kent Jct.

Paul Schmidt
 
Edited

On page 84 of “Appalachian Coal Hauler: Interstate Railroad's Mine Runs and Coal Trains,” there’s a photo of Southern 2182 on a mine run at Kent Jct. There’s a two-aspect colorlight signal to the right of the locomotive. I’m wondering if this is indeed a manually operated stop-proceed block signal protecting the branchline that began at Kent Junction? Instead of a two-aspect, manually operated dwarf semaphore signal that the train crew could lock to "stop," as I recently learned the Southern used on the St. Charles Branch, it’s a two-aspect colorlight signal atop a case serving the same purpose.

--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA


locked Southern Cabs on PC

Jason Greene
 

I was chatting with a friend who was asking about Southern cabs on other roads. It appears that the PC bought 13 of the 1946 cabs in 1971. They also inherited five from the Indianapolis Union Terminal. The only thing we can find says the IUT cabs were built in ‘47. Were they built for the IUT by Southern or were the bought second hand from the Southern? I can only find a few pictures online and they all have the distinctive Southern bracing around the handbrake. The ‘40s bay windows were not built with those so they must have been through the Southern rebuild program.

Can anyone explain the story of how the 18 ended up above the Mason-Dixon Line? Did anyone them last long enough on Conrail to come home on NS or onto the CSX roster? Seems unlikely but who knows.

Jason Greene


locked Passing of Jim Wrinn

Cohen Bob
 

WAUKESHA, Wis. — Jim Wrinn, who aspired since his youth to be the editor of Trains magazine and served in the role for more than 17 years, died at home on March 30, 2022, after a valiant 14-month battle with pancreatic cancer. He was 61.

Wrinn’s longevity in the editor’s role was second only to that of the legendary David P. Morgan, who led the magazine for more than 33 years and died in 1990 at age 62. Morgan’s editorship and writings deeply influenced Wrinn, who began reading Trains in 1967 at age 6.

History left it to Wrinn to preside over a challenging, transitional era for Trains, which Kalmbach Media predecessor Kalmbach Publishing Co. launched in November 1940. As editor in chief, Wrinn was fortunate to serve generations of readers who grew up on the print magazine while at the same time broadening the magazine’s appeal to a new digitally oriented audience.

Wrinn oversaw numerous initiatives that took Trains in new directions, including expanded online news coverage; a series of podcasts; a large catalog of digital video programing; a robust schedule of Trains-branded railroad tours, excursions, and events; and numerous projects to support railroad preservation. His tenure included a gala celebration of the 75th anniversary of the magazine in Milwaukee in November 2016, attended by hundreds of loyal readers.

Wrinn also showed a flair for the big moment, capitalizing on important news developments and effectively using a variety of media platforms. Case in point: the revival of Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 “Big Boy” No. 4014. Over the course of three years, Wrinn oversaw blanket coverage that included online reporting and numerous articles in Trains; two Big Boy special issues; live video updates from the field; and updates from the 4014’s coming-out party at Ogden, Utah, in May 2019. It all culminated in the book “Union Pacific’s Big Boys,” published by Kalmbach that same year with an introduction by the editor himself.

Becoming the editor of Trains was an idea planted by Wrinn’s first college advisor, who in 1979 asked the young journalism student what his dream job would be. Wrinn’s parents had already encouraged his railroad journalism by giving him a 35mm camera in 1977 and supporting numerous trips to see, ride, and photograph railroads.

Wrinn was born March 21, 1961, in the mountain town of Franklin, N.C., and spent his childhood there. He studied journalism at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, where he worked for the college newspaper, the Daily Tar Heel. After graduating he worked at daily newspapers in Gastonia, N.C., and Fayetteville, N.C., before joining the staff at The Charlotte Observer, one of the South’s leading newspapers, where he worked 1986-2004 in roles ranging from regional reporter to weekend city desk editor.

He also wrote or co-authored five railroad books, including “Steam’s Camelot,” a definitive history of the steam programs of the Southern Railway and successor Norfolk Southern, published in September 2000 by TLC Publishing.

Wrinn’s first photo in Trains was published in the October 1982 issue, appropriately a news photo of Graham County Railroad Shay No. 1925, a touchstone locomotive throughout his life. His first byline appeared in December 1989, a news story about the effects of Hurricane Hugo on Southeastern railroads the previous September. He went on to write numerous features before joining the staff on Oct. 27, 2004, a significant date given Trains’ (and Kalmbach’s) celebrated address at 1027 N. Seventh Street in downtown Milwaukee.

His home state of North Carolina held a special place in Wrinn’s heart, something he conveyed regularly to his readers. As a writer, he was never more touching than in his love letter to the former Southern Railway’s famous Loops on the line between Old Fort and Ridgecrest, 13 miles of scenic but challenging railroad, now part of Norfolk Southern’s Piedmont Division. His story “The Loops at Old Fort” appeared in the September 2006 issue.

“Because Old Fort grade is situated between Saluda and the Clinchfield, I often think of it as if it were a middle child,” wrote Wrinn. “It doesn’t demand attention like the daredevil, and it’s not graceful like the athlete. Old Fort is somewhere in between, doing what it does without drawing attention to itself — even though it should.”

Never content simply to observe from the journalistic sidelines, Wrinn was actively involved in railroad historical preservation, especially at the North Carolina Museum of Transportation in Spencer, where he volunteered since 1986. He recently served as a vice president at the North Carolina Transportation Museum Foundation.

Wrinn’s passing is being keenly felt across railroading, especially among the many writers, photographers, and professional railroaders with whom he collaborated. Theirs was a special kinship, born equally of a love of railroading and storytelling. One of them is Wick Moorman, former CEO at Amtrak and chairman of Norfolk Southern, as well as a longtime friend of Wrinn’s.

“When I first met Jim years ago, we immediately hit it off, not only because of our shared interest in the railroad industry but also because of our strong affinity for the Southern Railway,” said Moorman. “When Jim became editor of Trains, we all felt that he would do an excellent job, and, if anything, he exceeded those expectations. His passing is a loss not only to all of us who knew him, but also to everyone who has a passion, either personal or professional or both, for railroads.”

From the writer’s perspective comes this from Fred W. Frailey, for much of Wrinn’s era a columnist and blogger for Trains: “Every writer wants an editor, a boss, who says yes,” said Frailey. “Forget what ‘yes’ means — it can mean anything. Jim Wrinn always said ‘yes,’ even when it was no because he made it seem like yes. I love the guy.”

Similar encomiums come from Ron Flanary, one of the magazine’s most prolific contributors and someone with similar regional roots.

“Jim and I shared more than a passion for railroading, we were close friends and native Appalachians — a pedigree we shared with great pride,” recalls Flanary. “Our verbal exchanges were always relaxed, as we shared an accent that dates to Shakespeare and was recognized by language scholars for its authenticity and wit. Jim was an exceptional writer, in the tradition of the late David P. Morgan.”

One of Wrinn’s oldest friends is Jackson McQuigg, currently vice president-properties at the Atlanta History Center. “No one could make friends like Jim,” says McQuigg. “With his slightly sideways smile and a folksy North Carolina mountains twang in his voice, Jim could befriend anyone — and he did, from Fortune 500 railroad bosses to dyed-in-the-wool devotees of the humblest of short lines. Throughout his life, Jim also proved that he could connect all of us through his approachable writing and energetic preservation work.”

Jim Wrinn was proud to be part of a long line of Trains editors and said so in a candid self-assessment published in 2009. “I could not write like Morgan,” wrote Wrinn. “I could not be a diesel locomotive expert like Dave Ingles, I could not write as eloquently as Kevin P. Keefe, I could not be an industry insider like Mark Hemphill. But I could bring great enthusiasm to the job, a great love for the subject, and the passion and curiosity of a journalist. The other guys put together fantastic issues of Trains, but nobody ever had a better time in this job than me.”

Wrinn was proud that fellow staff members were friends as well as colleagues, and he admired working railroaders for their tireless efforts. He was proud of his co-workers who graduated to work at other titles with Kalmbach Media, and those who went to work in the railroad business and other industries.

“I believe we have left Trains better than we found it, and in the hands of great journalists who will carry on the tradition and make it ever greater,” Wrinn said. “Trains is a great brand for more than 80 years, and it will continue as long as steel wheels on steel rails fascinate.”

Wrinn is survived by his wife, Catherine Kratville-Wrinn, their “raildog” Millie, numerous cousins, and many close friends whom he often said he considered to be the brothers or sisters or children he never had.



locked LAST reminder of the NEXT Timonium, Maryland train show on April 2-3, 2022

Cohen Bob
 


Just a little reminder of the NEXT Timonium, Maryland train show in suburban Baltimore, MD. on April 2-3, 2022


That's just 3 days away and this is the rescheduled date, originally slated for later in the month.

It will be at the sprawling Timonium Fairgrounds, and has easy access from either the Light Rail OR Interstate 83, just north of the Baltimore beltway, I-695.

Plenty of parking is also available and if you like OTB (off-track betting) for the ponies, you can go under the grandstand and play the them if you so desire. Personally I like the better odds of quality merchandise at negotiable prices.

There will be hundreds of tables, a bunch of modular layouts from various groups and the usual White Elephant table where one can be a party to the whole reason to go to these things: recycling.

Among the many items available from the many dealers around the rooms: books, magazines (both current and heritage type), videos, railroadianna, models, parts, and who knows what else one might encounter while there.

All the popular gauges will be represented: G, 1, O, O-27, S, HO, N, HON3, tt (?), and who knows what else? Plenty of narrow gauge materials and information should also be for sale.

There are often a number of regional railroad historical societies present also. Check 'em out when you can.

Yes, There is an admission fee but it is good for both days and families can get a group rate upon entering together. The hours are 9-5 Saturday with one-way traffic starting at 4 and Sunday hours are 10-4. If you go to the website you can get a discount by purchasing in advance and then get your wristband when you arrive.

Hope to see you there. The weather should be spectacular for us.


Bob Cohen


locked Re: History of Signature colors

George Eichelberger
 

One (of many) SRHA archives research projects we want to do is to have someone start in the SR Presidents’ files boxes around 1925 and simply look through everything until they get through 1926 to see if they can find any references to the green paint. That was announced in the August, 1926 “Southern News Bulletin” (I’ve attached the article. A complete set of scanned “SNBs” are available on DVD from the SRHA “Grab”.)

Ike




On Mar 29, 2022, at 12:00 PM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

After a bit of research, I found that the first of the Gresley Pacifics, the Great Northern, of LNER predecessor Great Northern Railway, left the road's Doncaster works in 1922 clad in green dress.  The GN became part of the LNER in 1923.   While I do not know when the first Southern Railway (England) green locomotives were so painted, it would appear that those of the LNER, at least, pre-dated the Southern's green Ps-4's (the first Southern locomotives so painted) by several years.

For whatever it is worth.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: mike turner <michaellturner@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Mar 28, 2022 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] History of Signature colors

To add to the historical murkiness, back around 2008 I attended a
British train exhibition in Taunton UK and wore my SRHA shirt.

Three men approached me and said they they were confused by my
strange-to-them shirt.

One said he was an officer of the British Southern Railway historical
group and one of their their questions was about the green paint scheme.

They said their understanding was it was the other way around and their
railroad's president visited over here, saw the American green scheme,
and ordered their engines painted likewise.

I have no idea if he was pulling my leg (fool the Yank) or what.

They all got a good laugh out of an American version of the story.

We know what both railroads did, more or less. We just don't know who
copied whom, if anyone did. :)

Personally, I'll go with Adrian's opinion.

--
Mike Turner
MP-Z35








locked Re: History of Signature colors

Robert Hanson
 

After a bit of research, I found that the first of the Gresley Pacifics, the Great Northern, of LNER predecessor Great Northern Railway, left the road's Doncaster works in 1922 clad in green dress.  The GN became part of the LNER in 1923.   While I do not know when the first Southern Railway (England) green locomotives were so painted, it would appear that those of the LNER, at least, pre-dated the Southern's green Ps-4's (the first Southern locomotives so painted) by several years.

For whatever it is worth.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: mike turner <michaellturner@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Mar 28, 2022 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] History of Signature colors

To add to the historical murkiness, back around 2008 I attended a
British train exhibition in Taunton UK and wore my SRHA shirt.

Three men approached me and said they they were confused by my
strange-to-them shirt.

One said he was an officer of the British Southern Railway historical
group and one of their their questions was about the green paint scheme.

They said their understanding was it was the other way around and their
railroad's president visited over here, saw the American green scheme,
and ordered their engines painted likewise.

I have no idea if he was pulling my leg (fool the Yank) or what.

They all got a good laugh out of an American version of the story.

We know what both railroads did, more or less. We just don't know who
copied whom, if anyone did. :)

Personally, I'll go with Adrian's opinion.

--
Mike Turner
MP-Z35







locked My SRR Painting Diagram (Illustration in Color)

Donnie Dixon
 

Guys, the link below will take you to my SRR Passenger Car Lettering and Paint diagram for Steam Locos.

https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-34059780/documents/de30e2278cbf493ab8425da61986cc57/SR%20Steam%20Passenger%20Loco%20Painting%20Diagrams%208%2021.pdf

On 3/28/2022 10:28 PM, Donnie Dixon via groups.io wrote:


locked Re: History of Signature colors

Donnie Dixon
 

I am sure most of you have seen Southern Railway Drawing SL-6129, dated 1927.  Painting Southern Passenger Locomotives.  I have attached it as PDF format so you can enlarge it without losing definition.

Donnie Dixon


locked Re: History of Signature colors

mike turner
 

To add to the historical murkiness, back around 2008 I attended a British train exhibition in Taunton UK and wore my SRHA shirt.

Three men approached me and said they they were confused by my strange-to-them shirt.

One said he was an officer of the British Southern Railway historical group and one of their their questions was about the green paint scheme.

They said their understanding was it was the other way around and their railroad's president visited over here, saw the American green scheme, and ordered their engines painted likewise.

I have no idea if he was pulling my leg (fool the Yank) or what.

They all got a good laugh out of an American version of the story.

We know what both railroads did, more or less. We just don't know who copied whom, if anyone did. :)

Personally, I'll go with Adrian's opinion.

--
Mike Turner
MP-Z35


locked Re: History of Signature colors

Robert Hanson
 

Thank you, Aidrian, for your analysis from the British point of view.

One has to wonder what the Ps-4's, and other passenger power of the Southern, would have looked like if Mr. Harrison had been impressed by the locomotives of the London, Midland & Scottish Railway rather than those of the Southern and LNER.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <abridgemansutton@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Mar 28, 2022 4:59 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] History of Signature colors

Thanks for remembering that, Bill.  On the SRHA site, there is a photo of two Mountains heading out of Atlanta... here


I'm inclined to think the second engine may still be in the older finish, there seems to be a distinct difference in tone between the two.

As far as the inspiration for the original scheme is concerned, the green used by the LNER went through a couple of iterations, as Doncaster and Gateshead works were the principal works for two of the main constituents of the merged company. Both used rather different colours,  however they were both definitely in the range of colours that could be called "apple green".. 

The English Southern Railway was, like the LNER, formed in 1923 from a government organised  merger of several companies in the south of England  and they also went through a number of different shades of green. Again the major works showed some variance in the olive green  - Eastleigh initially favouring a different shade to Ashford; this possibly lasted until 1937 when OVS Bulleid introduced a bright green known as "Malachite green".

None of these are much like Sylvan green; I am inclined to think that Mr Harrison liked the general idea of green engines,  but had his people come up with distinctively American combination of colours and striping,  far better adapted to the aesthetics of the 1920s American steam locomotive than simply copying what was being done on this side of the water. 

Sylvan green is neither Apple green nor Olive green but when I try to mix a representative shade with oils, it seems to be primarily a mix of Chrome yellow, Prussian blue and a little white  

Aidrian


locked Re: History of Signature colors

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Thanks for remembering that, Bill.  On the SRHA site, there is a photo of two Mountains heading out of Atlanta... here


I'm inclined to think the second engine may still be in the older finish, there seems to be a distinct difference in tone between the two.

As far as the inspiration for the original scheme is concerned, the green used by the LNER went through a couple of iterations, as Doncaster and Gateshead works were the principal works for two of the main constituents of the merged company. Both used rather different colours,  however they were both definitely in the range of colours that could be called "apple green".. 

The English Southern Railway was, like the LNER, formed in 1923 from a government organised  merger of several companies in the south of England  and they also went through a number of different shades of green. Again the major works showed some variance in the olive green  - Eastleigh initially favouring a different shade to Ashford; this possibly lasted until 1937 when OVS Bulleid introduced a bright green known as "Malachite green".

None of these are much like Sylvan green; I am inclined to think that Mr Harrison liked the general idea of green engines,  but had his people come up with distinctively American combination of colours and striping,  far better adapted to the aesthetics of the 1920s American steam locomotive than simply copying what was being done on this side of the water. 

Sylvan green is neither Apple green nor Olive green but when I try to mix a representative shade with oils, it seems to be primarily a mix of Chrome yellow, Prussian blue and a little white  

Aidrian


locked Re: History of Signature colors

Carl Ardrey
 


On 03/28/2022 10:00 AM Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:


LNER locomotives were apple green which was adopted from the LNE when the Big Four was created.  Southern and later BR green was the darker green we associate with the USA Southern.  Attached is 4472 at Birmingham in 1969.
CEA


On 03/28/2022 9:50 AM Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


I think that the color that originally impressed Fairfax Harrison in England was the green used by the Southern Railway of England, which was a dark green. Beginning in 1926, Southern Ps-4s were painted with two coats of DuPont Dulux Sylvan Green enamel (SOU initially referred to it as “Virginia Green”), which then received two coats of varnish. Lettering/numbering/striping were in gold leaf. Sometime circa 1934, possibly as an economy move, SOU began using two coats of this paint without two coats of varnish. Lettering/numbering/striping was with DuPont Dulux imitation gold material. The info for both the varnished and unvarnished versions of Ps-4 paint can be found on page 32 of William Fitt’s 1973 publication Southern Ps-4 Class Pacific Locomotive Drawings, which were furnished by Southern Railway. 

Last year Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton speculated in this forum that without the two coats of varnish, the apparent color of green became brighter because the varnish used was an amber color and made the Sylvan Green appear darker. (Also, the gold leaf sometimes was so worn or dirty it failed to show up in photos.) Since there are no color photos of SOU Ps-4s between 1926 and, say, 1934, it’s hard to quantify how much darker the green appeared, but one can tell from contemporary black and white photos that post-1934, the green certainly appeared brighter.  The brighter green, to my understanding, more resembled the London & North Eastern locomotives of the time. 

Having seen examples of both Southern Railway (England) and LNER greens at the National Railway Museum in York, I have since come to believe that Southern’s locomotive green of the 1926-1934 period was meant to honor England’s Southern Railway, not the LNER. Just my opinion. 

—Bill

On Mar 28, 2022, at 09:23, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:
Bob, thanks for the interesting background on the origin of Southern's green and gold color scheme. I had heard that it was taken from the L&NE, and now we know "the rest of the story." 

Regards,
Marv Clemons
Birmingham, Alabama


locked Re: History of Signature colors

Carl Ardrey
 

LNER locomotives were apple green which was adopted from the LNE when the Big Four was created.  Southern and later BR green was the darker green we associate with the Southern.  Attached is 4472 at Birmingham in 1969.
CEA


On 03/28/2022 9:50 AM Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


I think that the color that originally impressed Fairfax Harrison in England was the green used by the Southern Railway of England, which was a dark green. Beginning in 1926, Southern Ps-4s were painted with two coats of DuPont Dulux Sylvan Green enamel (SOU initially referred to it as “Virginia Green”), which then received two coats of varnish. Lettering/numbering/striping were in gold leaf. Sometime circa 1934, possibly as an economy move, SOU began using two coats of this paint without two coats of varnish. Lettering/numbering/striping was with DuPont Dulux imitation gold material. The info for both the varnished and unvarnished versions of Ps-4 paint can be found on page 32 of William Fitt’s 1973 publication Southern Ps-4 Class Pacific Locomotive Drawings, which were furnished by Southern Railway. 

Last year Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton speculated in this forum that without the two coats of varnish, the apparent color of green became brighter because the varnish used was an amber color and made the Sylvan Green appear darker. (Also, the gold leaf sometimes was so worn or dirty it failed to show up in photos.) Since there are no color photos of SOU Ps-4s between 1926 and, say, 1934, it’s hard to quantify how much darker the green appeared, but one can tell from contemporary black and white photos that post-1934, the green certainly appeared brighter.  The brighter green, to my understanding, more resembled the London & North Eastern locomotives of the time. 

Having seen examples of both Southern Railway (England) and LNER greens at the National Railway Museum in York, I have since come to believe that Southern’s locomotive green of the 1926-1934 period was meant to honor England’s Southern Railway, not the LNER. Just my opinion. 

—Bill

On Mar 28, 2022, at 09:23, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:
Bob, thanks for the interesting background on the origin of Southern's green and gold color scheme. I had heard that it was taken from the L&NE, and now we know "the rest of the story." 

Regards,
Marv Clemons
Birmingham, Alabama


locked Re: History of Signature colors

Bill Schafer
 

I think that the color that originally impressed Fairfax Harrison in England was the green used by the Southern Railway of England, which was a dark green. Beginning in 1926, Southern Ps-4s were painted with two coats of DuPont Dulux Sylvan Green enamel (SOU initially referred to it as “Virginia Green”), which then received two coats of varnish. Lettering/numbering/striping were in gold leaf. Sometime circa 1934, possibly as an economy move, SOU began using two coats of this paint without two coats of varnish. Lettering/numbering/striping was with DuPont Dulux imitation gold material. The info for both the varnished and unvarnished versions of Ps-4 paint can be found on page 32 of William Fitt’s 1973 publication Southern Ps-4 Class Pacific Locomotive Drawings, which were furnished by Southern Railway. 

Last year Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton speculated in this forum that without the two coats of varnish, the apparent color of green became brighter because the varnish used was an amber color and made the Sylvan Green appear darker. (Also, the gold leaf sometimes was so worn or dirty it failed to show up in photos.) Since there are no color photos of SOU Ps-4s between 1926 and, say, 1934, it’s hard to quantify how much darker the green appeared, but one can tell from contemporary black and white photos that post-1934, the green certainly appeared brighter.  The brighter green, to my understanding, more resembled the London & North Eastern locomotives of the time. 

Having seen examples of both Southern Railway (England) and LNER greens at the National Railway Museum in York, I have since come to believe that Southern’s locomotive green of the 1926-1934 period was meant to honor England’s Southern Railway, not the LNER. Just my opinion. 

—Bill

On Mar 28, 2022, at 09:23, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Bob, thanks for the interesting background on the origin of Southern's green and gold color scheme. I had heard that it was taken from the L&NE, and now we know "the rest of the story." 

Regards,
Marv Clemons
Birmingham, Alabama


locked Re: History of Signature colors

Marv Clemons
 

Bob, thanks for the interesting background on the origin of Southern's green and gold color scheme. I had heard that it was taken from the L&NE, and now we know "the rest of the story." 

Regards,
Marv Clemons
Birmingham, Alabama


locked Re: History of Signature colors

Jennifer Q. Hunt
 

That does help very much! Thank you!


On Mar 27, 2022, at 7:34 PM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


Hello, Ms. Hunt,

The Southern began using the green paint with gold trim on an order of Pacific-type passenger locomotives in 1926.

It is said that Southern Railway president Fairfax Harrison visited England about that time and was impressed with the green locomotives used by two of the railways there - the London & Northeastern and England's Southern Railway.

On his return, he directed that the passenger locomotives then on order be delivered in green with gold trim.  They proved to be so popular that the Southern's entire fleet of passenger locomotives was so painted.

I hope this helps.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jennifer Q. Hunt <jenniferqhunt@...>
To: SouthernRailway@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Mar 27, 2022 6:46 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] History of Signature colors


I am a historical fiction author writing about the Southern Railway presence at the Atlanta Cotton Exposition of 1895. I am trying to discover when Southern began using their signature green and gold colors. Any insight is greatly appreciated!

Thank you!
Mrs. Jennifer Hunt





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