Date   

locked Checking in and a question!

Ed Burnett
 

How are you doing, Can I ask a favor?

Edward


locked Re: Mr. Marvin Black's Southern Diesel Research

George Eichelberger
 

If anyone, or any foundation, historical group... can fund someone to work at the archives to organize, index, scan, copy, upload to the NAS…whatever. We can promise books, articles, copies, access and indexes to what we have will come out a lot faster! (A quick look at the storage says we have more than 5TB of digital files at this point, a number that is growing all the time.)

Ike


On Apr 24, 2022, at 2:32 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

I like the big image files for archiving and research since you can read carbon copies, faded ink, and marginal notes in pencil or wax. But I agree that converting to 72 dpi and using optical character recognition to create a searchable PDF is great option for clear typewritten documents to share widely.

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Apr 24, 2022, at 2:22 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

John:

The example I posted shows only a fraction of the content in the material Marvin accumulated. (As a Sou-NS employee he had access to railroad files and most certainly volunteered when material was to be disposed of.) Anyone that attends the joint SRHA-L&NHS-RPM at TVRM in Sept/Oct is welcome to visit the archives building a get the $.05 tour.

I’ve attached another example. Admittedly, it’s the kind of thing only a “hard core” modeler or railfan would care about but as you are both…..

There are dozens of Diesel assignments, modifications, retirements, etc. in Marvin’s notebooks. The SR diesel books I am doing will include many photos but the text goes far beyond that. (A “teaser” for the FT Introduction was in TIES some time ago if anyone wants to see an example of what the books will look like. The draft was getting to nearly 500 pages (to large to print/sell because of cost) so it’ll be split into multiple books to get them done and available at a reasonable price.)

Ike

PS Re storage on the .io groups. We are in the process of putting a Networked Storage system in place. (Multiple disks, fully redundant, etc.)  Anyone is: welcome to help defray its cost and help get it organized and our data loaded. Also the local area SRHA-L&NHS-TVRM network, including fiber optic connections between multiple TVRM buildings project is moving ahead..all opportunities to learn and help! We have not established who/how/costs to get to everything but the “NAS” will be our on-line repository, not the .io group.


<1951-2-20 Ludlow Passenger Pool as of 2-20-51.jpeg>

On Apr 24, 2022, at 1:27 PM, John Willis <willisjc@...> wrote:

George,

If all the information is of the same quality, Mr. Black's contribution is to be lauded in the highest terms. Thanks for sharing this sample.

These jpg's can be resized to 800x600 with no discernible readability concerns. The file saving is immense. From megabytes to a couple hundred kilobytes. I use Irfanview, but most graphic viewers have similar resizing tools              ( virtually every type of graphic is handled by this program with the ability to save into whichever format needed or wanted ). I also use this when posting graphics to reduce bandwidth for those who may not be able to easily receive large files  (The courteous thing to do ). Large files are for archival uses and where storage capacity is of less or no concern.

John


John C. Willis









locked Re: Mr. Marvin Black's Southern Diesel Research

A&Y Dave in MD
 

I like the big image files for archiving and research since you can read carbon copies, faded ink, and marginal notes in pencil or wax. But I agree that converting to 72 dpi and using optical character recognition to create a searchable PDF is great option for clear typewritten documents to share widely.

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Apr 24, 2022, at 2:22 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

John:

The example I posted shows only a fraction of the content in the material Marvin accumulated. (As a Sou-NS employee he had access to railroad files and most certainly volunteered when material was to be disposed of.) Anyone that attends the joint SRHA-L&NHS-RPM at TVRM in Sept/Oct is welcome to visit the archives building a get the $.05 tour.

I’ve attached another example. Admittedly, it’s the kind of thing only a “hard core” modeler or railfan would care about but as you are both…..

There are dozens of Diesel assignments, modifications, retirements, etc. in Marvin’s notebooks. The SR diesel books I am doing will include many photos but the text goes far beyond that. (A “teaser” for the FT Introduction was in TIES some time ago if anyone wants to see an example of what the books will look like. The draft was getting to nearly 500 pages (to large to print/sell because of cost) so it’ll be split into multiple books to get them done and available at a reasonable price.)

Ike

PS Re storage on the .io groups. We are in the process of putting a Networked Storage system in place. (Multiple disks, fully redundant, etc.)  Anyone is: welcome to help defray its cost and help get it organized and our data loaded. Also the local area SRHA-L&NHS-TVRM network, including fiber optic connections between multiple TVRM buildings project is moving ahead..all opportunities to learn and help! We have not established who/how/costs to get to everything but the “NAS” will be our on-line repository, not the .io group.




On Apr 24, 2022, at 1:27 PM, John Willis <willisjc@...> wrote:

George,

If all the information is of the same quality, Mr. Black's contribution is to be lauded in the highest terms. Thanks for sharing this sample.

These jpg's can be resized to 800x600 with no discernible readability concerns. The file saving is immense. From megabytes to a couple hundred kilobytes. I use Irfanview, but most graphic viewers have similar resizing tools              ( virtually every type of graphic is handled by this program with the ability to save into whichever format needed or wanted ). I also use this when posting graphics to reduce bandwidth for those who may not be able to easily receive large files  (The courteous thing to do ). Large files are for archival uses and where storage capacity is of less or no concern.

John


John C. Willis








locked Re: Mr. Marvin Black's Southern Diesel Research

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Thanks for sharing. A book acknowledging Marvin would be fitting tribute. He was a gem of a person and cared about preserving knowledge. He got me going on the A&Y and supported me in my efforts.

Those letters already reflect the high regard for diesels in terms of cost, simplicity, and worker reductions. The decision was which diesel schedule was best.  As much as I like the steam era, I would make the same business decision. Nostalgia and preservation are important for society but are NOT about business—cost and service are.

Thanks for sharing!


Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Apr 24, 2022, at 12:02 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

We have not given sufficient "thanks" to the amazing amount of Southern Railway Diesel locomotive research material Marvin Black accumulated for his planned book on SR diesels. Among many other items, Marvin filled more than 100 3-ring binders with copies and original material, most of it original and certainly one of a kind, with letters and memos about every aspect of the railroad's transition to diesel poser, loco specifications, design changes, etc., etc. His material, along with the volume of material SRHA obtained from the Engineering, Mechanical Executive Departments and various shops is available as the series of Southern diesel books are written and for serious research.

While Marvin did not have the opportunity to produce the book before his death, his name will appear as one of the books' authors. Anyone (seriously) interested is welcome to help with research and writing.

Although the attached document is undated, it was obviously written in the early to mid 1940s when diesels were starting to replace steam. The style is "all business" and may not be of interest to many list members but I post it so everyone can see the "richness" of Marvin's efforts.

Ike

PS These are large (nearly 25 MB) attachments. To reduce space on the .io list, they will be deleted in a week or two


locked Re: Mr. Marvin Black's Southern Diesel Research

George Eichelberger
 

John:

The example I posted shows only a fraction of the content in the material Marvin accumulated. (As a Sou-NS employee he had access to railroad files and most certainly volunteered when material was to be disposed of.) Anyone that attends the joint SRHA-L&NHS-RPM at TVRM in Sept/Oct is welcome to visit the archives building a get the $.05 tour.

I’ve attached another example. Admittedly, it’s the kind of thing only a “hard core” modeler or railfan would care about but as you are both…..

There are dozens of Diesel assignments, modifications, retirements, etc. in Marvin’s notebooks. The SR diesel books I am doing will include many photos but the text goes far beyond that. (A “teaser” for the FT Introduction was in TIES some time ago if anyone wants to see an example of what the books will look like. The draft was getting to nearly 500 pages (to large to print/sell because of cost) so it’ll be split into multiple books to get them done and available at a reasonable price.)

Ike

PS Re storage on the .io groups. We are in the process of putting a Networked Storage system in place. (Multiple disks, fully redundant, etc.)  Anyone is: welcome to help defray its cost and help get it organized and our data loaded. Also the local area SRHA-L&NHS-TVRM network, including fiber optic connections between multiple TVRM buildings project is moving ahead..all opportunities to learn and help! We have not established who/how/costs to get to everything but the “NAS” will be our on-line repository, not the .io group.




On Apr 24, 2022, at 1:27 PM, John Willis <willisjc@...> wrote:

George,

If all the information is of the same quality, Mr. Black's contribution is to be lauded in the highest terms. Thanks for sharing this sample.

These jpg's can be resized to 800x600 with no discernible readability concerns. The file saving is immense. From megabytes to a couple hundred kilobytes. I use Irfanview, but most graphic viewers have similar resizing tools              ( virtually every type of graphic is handled by this program with the ability to save into whichever format needed or wanted ). I also use this when posting graphics to reduce bandwidth for those who may not be able to easily receive large files  (The courteous thing to do ). Large files are for archival uses and where storage capacity is of less or no concern.

John


John C. Willis








locked Re: Mr. Marvin Black's Southern Diesel Research

C J Wyatt
 

Based on the Royal Palm pool, a good guess for the date of the document would be at least spring 1947 or later. My March 1947 passenger timetable does not show the train as being dieselized, but the August 1947 one does. When the Florida Sunbeam ended its seasonal run in April, its assigned F3 A-B sets likely went to the Royal Palm.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, April 24, 2022, 12:03:11 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


We have not given sufficient "thanks" to the amazing amount of Southern Railway Diesel locomotive research material Marvin Black accumulated for his planned book on SR diesels. Among many other items, Marvin filled more than 100 3-ring binders with copies and original material, most of it original and certainly one of a kind, with letters and memos about every aspect of the railroad's transition to diesel poser, loco specifications, design changes, etc., etc. His material, along with the volume of material SRHA obtained from the Engineering, Mechanical Executive Departments and various shops is available as the series of Southern diesel books are written and for serious research.

While Marvin did not have the opportunity to produce the book before his death, his name will appear as one of the books' authors. Anyone (seriously) interested is welcome to help with research and writing.

Although the attached document is undated, it was obviously written in the early to mid 1940s when diesels were starting to replace steam. The style is "all business" and may not be of interest to many list members but I post it so everyone can see the "richness" of Marvin's efforts.

Ike

PS These are large (nearly 25 MB) attachments. To reduce space on the .io list, they will be deleted in a week or two


locked Mr. Marvin Black's Southern Diesel Research

John Willis
 

George,

If all the information is of the same quality, Mr. Black's contribution is to be lauded in the highest terms. Thanks for sharing this sample.

These jpg's can be resized to 800x600 with no discernible readability concerns. The file saving is immense. From megabytes to a couple hundred kilobytes. I use Irfanview, but most graphic viewers have similar resizing tools              ( virtually every type of graphic is handled by this program with the ability to save into whichever format needed or wanted ). I also use this when posting graphics to reduce bandwidth for those who may not be able to easily receive large files  (The courteous thing to do ). Large files are for archival uses and where storage capacity is of less or no concern.

John


John C. Willis


locked Mr. Marvin Black's Southern Diesel Research

George Eichelberger
 

We have not given sufficient "thanks" to the amazing amount of Southern Railway Diesel locomotive research material Marvin Black accumulated for his planned book on SR diesels. Among many other items, Marvin filled more than 100 3-ring binders with copies and original material, most of it original and certainly one of a kind, with letters and memos about every aspect of the railroad's transition to diesel poser, loco specifications, design changes, etc., etc. His material, along with the volume of material SRHA obtained from the Engineering, Mechanical Executive Departments and various shops is available as the series of Southern diesel books are written and for serious research.

While Marvin did not have the opportunity to produce the book before his death, his name will appear as one of the books' authors. Anyone (seriously) interested is welcome to help with research and writing.

Although the attached document is undated, it was obviously written in the early to mid 1940s when diesels were starting to replace steam. The style is "all business" and may not be of interest to many list members but I post it so everyone can see the "richness" of Marvin's efforts.

Ike

PS These are large (nearly 25 MB) attachments. To reduce space on the .io list, they will be deleted in a week or two


locked Re: Clearance Card Form #

Warren Stephens
 

On Southern Form 603.
On the original Norfolk Southern Form 126. 
On Norfolk & Western form C. T. 37 1/2. 
On Tennessee Alabama & Georgia Form 18. 
On Central of Georgia Form A.
NC&StL Form A
L&N Form A
Western Maryland Form A
C&O Form A
Norfolk Franklin & Danville Form 303

While I was looking I thought I would rattle off a few more from other southeast railroads. 

Warren D. Stephens 
CofG and TA&G fan


On Apr 23, 2022, at 11:07 PM, George Courtney via groups.io <gsc3@...> wrote:

That should be SRW (Southern Railway, not SRR, of course)

George Courtney


locked Re: Clearance Card Form #

George Courtney
 

That should be SRW (Southern Railway, not SRR, of course)

George Courtney


locked Clearance Card Form #

George Courtney
 

Anyone know the Form number for SRR's Clearance Cards?  An example is in "The Southern Railway Handbook" but so small I can't read it with my small magnifying glass.  My modeled time period is 1953 to 1954.

Thanks,
George Courtney


locked Re: Southern Class G-1 2-8-0 Nos. 2000-2009

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks,

That is it!

Jack

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022, 03:06:09 PM EDT, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:


Hi Jack,

 

See attached PDF.  I'm not 100% sure these are right, but may help.

 

Dave


Wednesday, April 20, 2022, 11:45:09 AM, you wrote:


Has anyone seen a photo, drawing or diagram of a Southern Class G-1 steam locomotive numbered 2000-2009?  These 2-8-0 types came to Southern via the acquisition of the Louisville, Evansville and St. Louis Connecting Railroad in 1900 and were built by Baldwin during 1892/93 as LE&StL Nos. 100-109.

I am trying to help a guy trying to identify an engine in a shop photograph he found. A dozen employees appearing with the locomotive.

Appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt


-- 
David Bott


Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Southern Class G-1 2-8-0 Nos. 2000-2009

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Hi Jack,

 

See attached PDF.  I'm not 100% sure these are right, but may help.

 

Dave


Wednesday, April 20, 2022, 11:45:09 AM, you wrote:


Has anyone seen a photo, drawing or diagram of a Southern Class G-1 steam locomotive numbered 2000-2009?  These 2-8-0 types came to Southern via the acquisition of the Louisville, Evansville and St. Louis Connecting Railroad in 1900 and were built by Baldwin during 1892/93 as LE&StL Nos. 100-109.

I am trying to help a guy trying to identify an engine in a shop photograph he found. A dozen employees appearing with the locomotive.

Appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt



locked Southern Class G-1 2-8-0 Nos. 2000-2009

C J Wyatt
 

Has anyone seen a photo, drawing or diagram of a Southern Class G-1 steam locomotive numbered 2000-2009?  These 2-8-0 types came to Southern via the acquisition of the Louisville, Evansville and St. Louis Connecting Railroad in 1900 and were built by Baldwin during 1892/93 as LE&StL Nos. 100-109.

I am trying to help a guy trying to identify an engine in a shop photograph he found. A dozen employees appearing with the locomotive.

Appreciate any help.

Jack Wyatt


locked Re: Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Bill,

 

Thanks.  Found it.  That covers only the flats with wood sides.   Is there an article on the all steel low side gondolas like the one in the photo attached from the Duke construction archive online?

 

Dave


Monday, April 18, 2022, 2:45:50 PM, you wrote:


2012-3 TIES, pp. 4-9, “Southern’s Little Long-Lived Flatcars"

On Apr 18, 2022, at 13:25, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Do you have a date on the TIES article?  I paused going through them at 1998, so I have 20 years of them to go through and I keep getting distracted by neat articles on other topics.

ORER’s are not perfect but they were available to me and give an overall feel for the scope of the topic.

Thanks. The yellow fever in New Orleans and how the Southern responded was fun to research.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Apr 18, 2022, at 11:29 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Dave’s excellent article on the Spanish flu appeared on p. 12 of 2019-3 TIES - six months before the Covid 19 epidemic. 

—Bill

On Apr 18, 2022, at 09:22, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

Ties ran an article on low side gons and most of the info Jim King published with his kits came from SRHA. (Jim is always very good with crediting material.)

Many people have heard my comments on ORERs before. They are far from a perfect data source!

I can’t say if other roads had the same attitude but the Southern did not always worry about the quantities in the ORERs. For example, if a series was being scrapped, there was no need to “count down” the number of cars left. When the last car was gone, the entire entry would be removed.

Those inaccuracies were for cars being purchased or rebuilt as well as scrapped. If cars were to be rebuilt/renumbered under an SCP, or purchased new, the entries would sometimes be made before the work was done or the cars delivered. The ORERs' only real use to the railroads was for dealing with interchanged cars. If car 123456 showed up in interchange, the ORER told the receiving railroad its details. If a car number was in the ORER but the car did not exist (scrapped/not delivered), it meant nothing.

There is at least one series of 40’ Southern box car rebuilds in ORERs that never existed. They were shown to have 70-ton trucks but were only rebuilt with 50-ton capy. THAT would be a serious problem in the RER because a receiving railroad could overload those cars because they relied on the published CAPY info.

The other issue I see with ORERS is how the entries aggregated cars with similar characteristics. A quantity could include cars from different orders/rebuilds as long as their AAR code and dimensions were the same (mol).

ORERS are good starting point references but I question their value for “deep” research.

Ike

PS Always confusing, the first “low side gons” by Southern classification were actually flat cars with low wooden sides. Yes, they were “gons” (116000 series?) but could be seen as flat cars with low sides.

PPS With Covid so much in the news, I really recommend Dave’s article in TIES on the Spanish Flu epidemic that was published some time ago.



On Apr 17, 2022, at 10:31 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

There's been comparatively a lot of history of Southern boxcars and even hoppers in the pre-WWII era, but the gondolas, and my favorite the low side gons, have had little attention paid.  I want to fix this starting with the low side versions.

 

I'm gathering data about the Southern's early low side gondola fleet, hopefully for an article in TIES (since I haven't found an article on the history of these cars yet).  Attached (if it goes through) is a PDF with my transcription of the ORER entries for years I have (fifteen years from 1901-1945).  I included the entries for any gondola with an inside height of less than 3'10".  Many were labeled "low side" as the kind in the ORER, others just appear to have low sides by dimension.

 

The first page of the attached PDF is a pivot table indicating the total number of cars in each series by available year for series having 25+ cars in a year (leaving out the "one off" car series).  The last five pages of the PDF list each ORER year with low side gondola car number series as rows (and not filtered by the minimum count). The entire listing is helpful to see things like when AGS, CNOTP, and other subsidiaries had some cars re-lettered Southern and renumbered.

 

Now I need to review the photos I have for these series to see what I can learn.  I doubt I will find much.  I have maybe 6 photos total of the 1924 built cars (non-rebuilt). The best are from the online archive of Duke University construction in 1929.  I've gone through all the 'Southern Rails' and the first three of nine binders of SRHA TIES magazines and I have found three more photos (two of which you cannot read lettering and can barely count the ribs to confirm the type and the other one is in the Speedwitch kit instructions). I also have the only photo found of the wood side gon on flat car (117500-117999 series introduced in 1930) from the SMMW kit instructions.  I did see Ed King's article on modeling the steel low sides in O scale, but he didn't have a prototype photo or information that I didn't already see.  Kind of interesting that we have at least two model kits and one model article, but no history article!

 

If anyone has more information or photos, especially of the 9 rib 10 panel low side steel gondolas (since they are more likely), please let me know.  I've yet to go through my other books (Prince, Webb, etc) to look for glimpses of these cars.  Most photos I've seen depict the cars after rebuilding to 11 ribs starting about 1943.

 

The 1940's rebuilt with 11 ribs and later built cars are pretty well documented (even with color photos), but data on the 1924 built and earlier steel, composite, or wood cars is much harder to find.  Hopefully I can get to the archives some day and look for drawings.  I need to resolve questions like: Which of these series were all wood, which composite, and which were steel? The SMMW kit history states that the 1924 steel cars were built with 9 ribs, Andrews trucks, and AB brakes.  The latter is hard to believe, given AB brakes were introduced in 1930 and not adopted by the AAR until 1934.  So I can believe the 1937 and later built cars plus the rebuilds had AB brakes, but I wonder if that was supposed to indicate "Split K" or K brakes for 1924 built cars instead.

 

Dave Bott

 

P.S.
I extracted all the Southern Railway entry page images from at least one ORER for each year I have obtained (1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1959). The first ten are no longer copyrighted and I obtained via Google books. The others are ones I have bought.  Great for research purposes. If anyone is interested in a set of just the 19 Southern entries (PDFs are 45mb in ZIP file), I can make available for download from personal Google or OneDrive.  Just let me know.  I would be interested in Southern entries for years I don't have prior to 1950.


<SOU-Low-Side-Gons-ORER-data-and-pivot-Bott-20220417.pdf>





locked Re: Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

George Eichelberger
 

If I can add a comment about Dave’s Yellow Fever article, and the material in the archives on the topic.

It beings up a point I did not realize. Public Health services circa 1916-18 were pretty much local affairs, no national recommendations or controls. As with before "standard time” the railroads had to deal with different restrictions in different places. In some places, local police met arriving passenger trains to determine where the passengers were coming from. If it were an infected area, passengers were not allow to get off.

At times, entire cities were embargoed. Until I first looked at the file, I had no idea it had such an effect on the Southern.

We have multiple “Quarantine Notices” in the archives, I’ve attached page 1 of No. 7.

Ike



On Apr 18, 2022, at 2:25 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Do you have a date on the TIES article?  I paused going through them at 1998, so I have 20 years of them to go through and I keep getting distracted by neat articles on other topics.

ORER’s are not perfect but they were available to me and give an overall feel for the scope of the topic.

Thanks. The yellow fever in New Orleans and how the Southern responded was fun to research.

Dave



locked Re: Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

Bill Schafer
 

2012-3 TIES, pp. 4-9, “Southern’s Little Long-Lived Flatcars"

On Apr 18, 2022, at 13:25, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Do you have a date on the TIES article?  I paused going through them at 1998, so I have 20 years of them to go through and I keep getting distracted by neat articles on other topics.

ORER’s are not perfect but they were available to me and give an overall feel for the scope of the topic.

Thanks. The yellow fever in New Orleans and how the Southern responded was fun to research.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Apr 18, 2022, at 11:29 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Dave’s excellent article on the Spanish flu appeared on p. 12 of 2019-3 TIES - six months before the Covid 19 epidemic. 

—Bill

On Apr 18, 2022, at 09:22, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

Ties ran an article on low side gons and most of the info Jim King published with his kits came from SRHA. (Jim is always very good with crediting material.)

Many people have heard my comments on ORERs before. They are far from a perfect data source!

I can’t say if other roads had the same attitude but the Southern did not always worry about the quantities in the ORERs. For example, if a series was being scrapped, there was no need to “count down” the number of cars left. When the last car was gone, the entire entry would be removed.

Those inaccuracies were for cars being purchased or rebuilt as well as scrapped. If cars were to be rebuilt/renumbered under an SCP, or purchased new, the entries would sometimes be made before the work was done or the cars delivered. The ORERs' only real use to the railroads was for dealing with interchanged cars. If car 123456 showed up in interchange, the ORER told the receiving railroad its details. If a car number was in the ORER but the car did not exist (scrapped/not delivered), it meant nothing.

There is at least one series of 40’ Southern box car rebuilds in ORERs that never existed. They were shown to have 70-ton trucks but were only rebuilt with 50-ton capy. THAT would be a serious problem in the RER because a receiving railroad could overload those cars because they relied on the published CAPY info.

The other issue I see with ORERS is how the entries aggregated cars with similar characteristics. A quantity could include cars from different orders/rebuilds as long as their AAR code and dimensions were the same (mol).

ORERS are good starting point references but I question their value for “deep” research.

Ike

PS Always confusing, the first “low side gons” by Southern classification were actually flat cars with low wooden sides. Yes, they were “gons” (116000 series?) but could be seen as flat cars with low sides.

PPS With Covid so much in the news, I really recommend Dave’s article in TIES on the Spanish Flu epidemic that was published some time ago.



On Apr 17, 2022, at 10:31 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

There's been comparatively a lot of history of Southern boxcars and even hoppers in the pre-WWII era, but the gondolas, and my favorite the low side gons, have had little attention paid.  I want to fix this starting with the low side versions.

 

I'm gathering data about the Southern's early low side gondola fleet, hopefully for an article in TIES (since I haven't found an article on the history of these cars yet).  Attached (if it goes through) is a PDF with my transcription of the ORER entries for years I have (fifteen years from 1901-1945).  I included the entries for any gondola with an inside height of less than 3'10".  Many were labeled "low side" as the kind in the ORER, others just appear to have low sides by dimension.

 

The first page of the attached PDF is a pivot table indicating the total number of cars in each series by available year for series having 25+ cars in a year (leaving out the "one off" car series).  The last five pages of the PDF list each ORER year with low side gondola car number series as rows (and not filtered by the minimum count). The entire listing is helpful to see things like when AGS, CNOTP, and other subsidiaries had some cars re-lettered Southern and renumbered.

 

Now I need to review the photos I have for these series to see what I can learn.  I doubt I will find much.  I have maybe 6 photos total of the 1924 built cars (non-rebuilt). The best are from the online archive of Duke University construction in 1929.  I've gone through all the 'Southern Rails' and the first three of nine binders of SRHA TIES magazines and I have found three more photos (two of which you cannot read lettering and can barely count the ribs to confirm the type and the other one is in the Speedwitch kit instructions). I also have the only photo found of the wood side gon on flat car (117500-117999 series introduced in 1930) from the SMMW kit instructions.  I did see Ed King's article on modeling the steel low sides in O scale, but he didn't have a prototype photo or information that I didn't already see.  Kind of interesting that we have at least two model kits and one model article, but no history article!

 

If anyone has more information or photos, especially of the 9 rib 10 panel low side steel gondolas (since they are more likely), please let me know.  I've yet to go through my other books (Prince, Webb, etc) to look for glimpses of these cars.  Most photos I've seen depict the cars after rebuilding to 11 ribs starting about 1943.

 

The 1940's rebuilt with 11 ribs and later built cars are pretty well documented (even with color photos), but data on the 1924 built and earlier steel, composite, or wood cars is much harder to find.  Hopefully I can get to the archives some day and look for drawings.  I need to resolve questions like: Which of these series were all wood, which composite, and which were steel? The SMMW kit history states that the 1924 steel cars were built with 9 ribs, Andrews trucks, and AB brakes.  The latter is hard to believe, given AB brakes were introduced in 1930 and not adopted by the AAR until 1934.  So I can believe the 1937 and later built cars plus the rebuilds had AB brakes, but I wonder if that was supposed to indicate "Split K" or K brakes for 1924 built cars instead.

 

Dave Bott

 

P.S.
I extracted all the Southern Railway entry page images from at least one ORER for each year I have obtained (1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1959). The first ten are no longer copyrighted and I obtained via Google books. The others are ones I have bought.  Great for research purposes. If anyone is interested in a set of just the 19 Southern entries (PDFs are 45mb in ZIP file), I can make available for download from personal Google or OneDrive.  Just let me know.  I would be interested in Southern entries for years I don't have prior to 1950.


<SOU-Low-Side-Gons-ORER-data-and-pivot-Bott-20220417.pdf>




locked Re: Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Do you have a date on the TIES article?  I paused going through them at 1998, so I have 20 years of them to go through and I keep getting distracted by neat articles on other topics.

ORER’s are not perfect but they were available to me and give an overall feel for the scope of the topic.

Thanks. The yellow fever in New Orleans and how the Southern responded was fun to research.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Apr 18, 2022, at 11:29 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Dave’s excellent article on the Spanish flu appeared on p. 12 of 2019-3 TIES - six months before the Covid 19 epidemic. 

—Bill

On Apr 18, 2022, at 09:22, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

Ties ran an article on low side gons and most of the info Jim King published with his kits came from SRHA. (Jim is always very good with crediting material.)

Many people have heard my comments on ORERs before. They are far from a perfect data source!

I can’t say if other roads had the same attitude but the Southern did not always worry about the quantities in the ORERs. For example, if a series was being scrapped, there was no need to “count down” the number of cars left. When the last car was gone, the entire entry would be removed.

Those inaccuracies were for cars being purchased or rebuilt as well as scrapped. If cars were to be rebuilt/renumbered under an SCP, or purchased new, the entries would sometimes be made before the work was done or the cars delivered. The ORERs' only real use to the railroads was for dealing with interchanged cars. If car 123456 showed up in interchange, the ORER told the receiving railroad its details. If a car number was in the ORER but the car did not exist (scrapped/not delivered), it meant nothing.

There is at least one series of 40’ Southern box car rebuilds in ORERs that never existed. They were shown to have 70-ton trucks but were only rebuilt with 50-ton capy. THAT would be a serious problem in the RER because a receiving railroad could overload those cars because they relied on the published CAPY info.

The other issue I see with ORERS is how the entries aggregated cars with similar characteristics. A quantity could include cars from different orders/rebuilds as long as their AAR code and dimensions were the same (mol).

ORERS are good starting point references but I question their value for “deep” research.

Ike

PS Always confusing, the first “low side gons” by Southern classification were actually flat cars with low wooden sides. Yes, they were “gons” (116000 series?) but could be seen as flat cars with low sides.

PPS With Covid so much in the news, I really recommend Dave’s article in TIES on the Spanish Flu epidemic that was published some time ago.



On Apr 17, 2022, at 10:31 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

There's been comparatively a lot of history of Southern boxcars and even hoppers in the pre-WWII era, but the gondolas, and my favorite the low side gons, have had little attention paid.  I want to fix this starting with the low side versions.

 

I'm gathering data about the Southern's early low side gondola fleet, hopefully for an article in TIES (since I haven't found an article on the history of these cars yet).  Attached (if it goes through) is a PDF with my transcription of the ORER entries for years I have (fifteen years from 1901-1945).  I included the entries for any gondola with an inside height of less than 3'10".  Many were labeled "low side" as the kind in the ORER, others just appear to have low sides by dimension.

 

The first page of the attached PDF is a pivot table indicating the total number of cars in each series by available year for series having 25+ cars in a year (leaving out the "one off" car series).  The last five pages of the PDF list each ORER year with low side gondola car number series as rows (and not filtered by the minimum count). The entire listing is helpful to see things like when AGS, CNOTP, and other subsidiaries had some cars re-lettered Southern and renumbered.

 

Now I need to review the photos I have for these series to see what I can learn.  I doubt I will find much.  I have maybe 6 photos total of the 1924 built cars (non-rebuilt). The best are from the online archive of Duke University construction in 1929.  I've gone through all the 'Southern Rails' and the first three of nine binders of SRHA TIES magazines and I have found three more photos (two of which you cannot read lettering and can barely count the ribs to confirm the type and the other one is in the Speedwitch kit instructions). I also have the only photo found of the wood side gon on flat car (117500-117999 series introduced in 1930) from the SMMW kit instructions.  I did see Ed King's article on modeling the steel low sides in O scale, but he didn't have a prototype photo or information that I didn't already see.  Kind of interesting that we have at least two model kits and one model article, but no history article!

 

If anyone has more information or photos, especially of the 9 rib 10 panel low side steel gondolas (since they are more likely), please let me know.  I've yet to go through my other books (Prince, Webb, etc) to look for glimpses of these cars.  Most photos I've seen depict the cars after rebuilding to 11 ribs starting about 1943.

 

The 1940's rebuilt with 11 ribs and later built cars are pretty well documented (even with color photos), but data on the 1924 built and earlier steel, composite, or wood cars is much harder to find.  Hopefully I can get to the archives some day and look for drawings.  I need to resolve questions like: Which of these series were all wood, which composite, and which were steel? The SMMW kit history states that the 1924 steel cars were built with 9 ribs, Andrews trucks, and AB brakes.  The latter is hard to believe, given AB brakes were introduced in 1930 and not adopted by the AAR until 1934.  So I can believe the 1937 and later built cars plus the rebuilds had AB brakes, but I wonder if that was supposed to indicate "Split K" or K brakes for 1924 built cars instead.

 

Dave Bott

 

P.S.
I extracted all the Southern Railway entry page images from at least one ORER for each year I have obtained (1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1959). The first ten are no longer copyrighted and I obtained via Google books. The others are ones I have bought.  Great for research purposes. If anyone is interested in a set of just the 19 Southern entries (PDFs are 45mb in ZIP file), I can make available for download from personal Google or OneDrive.  Just let me know.  I would be interested in Southern entries for years I don't have prior to 1950.


<SOU-Low-Side-Gons-ORER-data-and-pivot-Bott-20220417.pdf>



locked Re: Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

Bill Schafer
 

Dave’s excellent article on the Spanish flu appeared on p. 12 of 2019-3 TIES - six months before the Covid 19 epidemic. 

—Bill

On Apr 18, 2022, at 09:22, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

Ties ran an article on low side gons and most of the info Jim King published with his kits came from SRHA. (Jim is always very good with crediting material.)

Many people have heard my comments on ORERs before. They are far from a perfect data source!

I can’t say if other roads had the same attitude but the Southern did not always worry about the quantities in the ORERs. For example, if a series was being scrapped, there was no need to “count down” the number of cars left. When the last car was gone, the entire entry would be removed.

Those inaccuracies were for cars being purchased or rebuilt as well as scrapped. If cars were to be rebuilt/renumbered under an SCP, or purchased new, the entries would sometimes be made before the work was done or the cars delivered. The ORERs' only real use to the railroads was for dealing with interchanged cars. If car 123456 showed up in interchange, the ORER told the receiving railroad its details. If a car number was in the ORER but the car did not exist (scrapped/not delivered), it meant nothing.

There is at least one series of 40’ Southern box car rebuilds in ORERs that never existed. They were shown to have 70-ton trucks but were only rebuilt with 50-ton capy. THAT would be a serious problem in the RER because a receiving railroad could overload those cars because they relied on the published CAPY info.

The other issue I see with ORERS is how the entries aggregated cars with similar characteristics. A quantity could include cars from different orders/rebuilds as long as their AAR code and dimensions were the same (mol).

ORERS are good starting point references but I question their value for “deep” research.

Ike

PS Always confusing, the first “low side gons” by Southern classification were actually flat cars with low wooden sides. Yes, they were “gons” (116000 series?) but could be seen as flat cars with low sides.

PPS With Covid so much in the news, I really recommend Dave’s article in TIES on the Spanish Flu epidemic that was published some time ago.



On Apr 17, 2022, at 10:31 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

There's been comparatively a lot of history of Southern boxcars and even hoppers in the pre-WWII era, but the gondolas, and my favorite the low side gons, have had little attention paid.  I want to fix this starting with the low side versions.

 

I'm gathering data about the Southern's early low side gondola fleet, hopefully for an article in TIES (since I haven't found an article on the history of these cars yet).  Attached (if it goes through) is a PDF with my transcription of the ORER entries for years I have (fifteen years from 1901-1945).  I included the entries for any gondola with an inside height of less than 3'10".  Many were labeled "low side" as the kind in the ORER, others just appear to have low sides by dimension.

 

The first page of the attached PDF is a pivot table indicating the total number of cars in each series by available year for series having 25+ cars in a year (leaving out the "one off" car series).  The last five pages of the PDF list each ORER year with low side gondola car number series as rows (and not filtered by the minimum count). The entire listing is helpful to see things like when AGS, CNOTP, and other subsidiaries had some cars re-lettered Southern and renumbered.

 

Now I need to review the photos I have for these series to see what I can learn.  I doubt I will find much.  I have maybe 6 photos total of the 1924 built cars (non-rebuilt). The best are from the online archive of Duke University construction in 1929.  I've gone through all the 'Southern Rails' and the first three of nine binders of SRHA TIES magazines and I have found three more photos (two of which you cannot read lettering and can barely count the ribs to confirm the type and the other one is in the Speedwitch kit instructions). I also have the only photo found of the wood side gon on flat car (117500-117999 series introduced in 1930) from the SMMW kit instructions.  I did see Ed King's article on modeling the steel low sides in O scale, but he didn't have a prototype photo or information that I didn't already see.  Kind of interesting that we have at least two model kits and one model article, but no history article!

 

If anyone has more information or photos, especially of the 9 rib 10 panel low side steel gondolas (since they are more likely), please let me know.  I've yet to go through my other books (Prince, Webb, etc) to look for glimpses of these cars.  Most photos I've seen depict the cars after rebuilding to 11 ribs starting about 1943.

 

The 1940's rebuilt with 11 ribs and later built cars are pretty well documented (even with color photos), but data on the 1924 built and earlier steel, composite, or wood cars is much harder to find.  Hopefully I can get to the archives some day and look for drawings.  I need to resolve questions like: Which of these series were all wood, which composite, and which were steel? The SMMW kit history states that the 1924 steel cars were built with 9 ribs, Andrews trucks, and AB brakes.  The latter is hard to believe, given AB brakes were introduced in 1930 and not adopted by the AAR until 1934.  So I can believe the 1937 and later built cars plus the rebuilds had AB brakes, but I wonder if that was supposed to indicate "Split K" or K brakes for 1924 built cars instead.

 

Dave Bott

 

P.S.
I extracted all the Southern Railway entry page images from at least one ORER for each year I have obtained (1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1959). The first ten are no longer copyrighted and I obtained via Google books. The others are ones I have bought.  Great for research purposes. If anyone is interested in a set of just the 19 Southern entries (PDFs are 45mb in ZIP file), I can make available for download from personal Google or OneDrive.  Just let me know.  I would be interested in Southern entries for years I don't have prior to 1950.


<SOU-Low-Side-Gons-ORER-data-and-pivot-Bott-20220417.pdf>



locked Re: Southern early low side gons (1901-1945)

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

Ties ran an article on low side gons and most of the info Jim King published with his kits came from SRHA. (Jim is always very good with crediting material.)

Many people have heard my comments on ORERs before. They are far from a perfect data source!

I can’t say if other roads had the same attitude but the Southern did not always worry about the quantities in the ORERs. For example, if a series was being scrapped, there was no need to “count down” the number of cars left. When the last car was gone, the entire entry would be removed.

Those inaccuracies were for cars being purchased or rebuilt as well as scrapped. If cars were to be rebuilt/renumbered under an SCP, or purchased new, the entries would sometimes be made before the work was done or the cars delivered. The ORERs' only real use to the railroads was for dealing with interchanged cars. If car 123456 showed up in interchange, the ORER told the receiving railroad its details. If a car number was in the ORER but the car did not exist (scrapped/not delivered), it meant nothing.

There is at least one series of 40’ Southern box car rebuilds in ORERs that never existed. They were shown to have 70-ton trucks but were only rebuilt with 50-ton capy. THAT would be a serious problem in the RER because a receiving railroad could overload those cars because they relied on the published CAPY info.

The other issue I see with ORERS is how the entries aggregated cars with similar characteristics. A quantity could include cars from different orders/rebuilds as long as their AAR code and dimensions were the same (mol).

ORERS are good starting point references but I question their value for “deep” research.

Ike

PS Always confusing, the first “low side gons” by Southern classification were actually flat cars with low wooden sides. Yes, they were “gons” (116000 series?) but could be seen as flat cars with low sides.

PPS With Covid so much in the news, I really recommend Dave’s article in TIES on the Spanish Flu epidemic that was published some time ago.



On Apr 17, 2022, at 10:31 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

There's been comparatively a lot of history of Southern boxcars and even hoppers in the pre-WWII era, but the gondolas, and my favorite the low side gons, have had little attention paid.  I want to fix this starting with the low side versions.

 

I'm gathering data about the Southern's early low side gondola fleet, hopefully for an article in TIES (since I haven't found an article on the history of these cars yet).  Attached (if it goes through) is a PDF with my transcription of the ORER entries for years I have (fifteen years from 1901-1945).  I included the entries for any gondola with an inside height of less than 3'10".  Many were labeled "low side" as the kind in the ORER, others just appear to have low sides by dimension.

 

The first page of the attached PDF is a pivot table indicating the total number of cars in each series by available year for series having 25+ cars in a year (leaving out the "one off" car series).  The last five pages of the PDF list each ORER year with low side gondola car number series as rows (and not filtered by the minimum count). The entire listing is helpful to see things like when AGS, CNOTP, and other subsidiaries had some cars re-lettered Southern and renumbered.

 

Now I need to review the photos I have for these series to see what I can learn.  I doubt I will find much.  I have maybe 6 photos total of the 1924 built cars (non-rebuilt). The best are from the online archive of Duke University construction in 1929.  I've gone through all the 'Southern Rails' and the first three of nine binders of SRHA TIES magazines and I have found three more photos (two of which you cannot read lettering and can barely count the ribs to confirm the type and the other one is in the Speedwitch kit instructions). I also have the only photo found of the wood side gon on flat car (117500-117999 series introduced in 1930) from the SMMW kit instructions.  I did see Ed King's article on modeling the steel low sides in O scale, but he didn't have a prototype photo or information that I didn't already see.  Kind of interesting that we have at least two model kits and one model article, but no history article!

 

If anyone has more information or photos, especially of the 9 rib 10 panel low side steel gondolas (since they are more likely), please let me know.  I've yet to go through my other books (Prince, Webb, etc) to look for glimpses of these cars.  Most photos I've seen depict the cars after rebuilding to 11 ribs starting about 1943.

 

The 1940's rebuilt with 11 ribs and later built cars are pretty well documented (even with color photos), but data on the 1924 built and earlier steel, composite, or wood cars is much harder to find.  Hopefully I can get to the archives some day and look for drawings.  I need to resolve questions like: Which of these series were all wood, which composite, and which were steel? The SMMW kit history states that the 1924 steel cars were built with 9 ribs, Andrews trucks, and AB brakes.  The latter is hard to believe, given AB brakes were introduced in 1930 and not adopted by the AAR until 1934.  So I can believe the 1937 and later built cars plus the rebuilds had AB brakes, but I wonder if that was supposed to indicate "Split K" or K brakes for 1924 built cars instead.

 

Dave Bott

 

P.S.
I extracted all the Southern Railway entry page images from at least one ORER for each year I have obtained (1901, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1959). The first ten are no longer copyrighted and I obtained via Google books. The others are ones I have bought.  Great for research purposes. If anyone is interested in a set of just the 19 Southern entries (PDFs are 45mb in ZIP file), I can make available for download from personal Google or OneDrive.  Just let me know.  I would be interested in Southern entries for years I don't have prior to 1950.


<SOU-Low-Side-Gons-ORER-data-and-pivot-Bott-20220417.pdf>

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