Date   
moderated Groups and Paint

milepost 131 <mp131.ghandrews@...>
 

This IS being cross-posted to the two yahoogroups and the groups.io

 

 

The things I don’t know:

 

1. What’s up with photo/files/messages

2 Depot Paint

 

Why we have members asking about files and photos…

 

 

 

Now to the various and sundry internet discussion groups- shades of the old days when SRHS and SRHA co-existed.

 

At Yahoogroup.

 

Southern_Railway and Southern Railway Modeler exist.

 

Southern_Railway (Yahoo) indicates 896 member (active -unknown)

It has a file and photo section that members CAN access.

 

Southern Railway Modelers (Yahoo- Southernmodeler) 828 members. It has Files and Photos section.

 

As far as I know neither Yahoogroup has direct ties to SRHA…

 

And then there are the groups at groups.io:

 

SouthernRailway

A “main group” with 132 members

Only photos are those which have been “pulled from email attachments and no files.

Under this is a sub-group

ModelingTheSouthern with 21 members

Again ONLY photos are those sent as attachments (SIX as of this writing)

 

If you are confused at this point- welcome to the club.

 

The groups.io seem to be associated with SRHA (but this might not be true)

 

So it would appear that we have “diversity” of discussion groups and anyone interested in Southern Railway needs to have their feet planted “firmly” in two worlds. As I said it reminds me of ancient history when SRHS and SRHA existed.

 

I’m not sure who the owners/moderators are of any of the groups not that it matters but it is a shame we can’t all get on the same page regardless…

 

 

 

So.. it looks like you’ll have to do what I’ve been doing… have membership in both Yahoogroups and groups.io. (I’m not even sure whether these two providers will welcome discussion groups long term.)

 

FYI- I migrated a group from Yahoo to groups.io a while back because it was better supported at groups.io. To each his own.

 

But the next time you see a member say… but I can’t post a file or a photo…. you’ll know why.

 

 

NOW TO MY SOUTHERN RAILWAY MESSAGE!

 

 

2 DEPOT PAINT

 

The color of depots on the Southern Murphy Branch circa 1942.

Based on a photo of Whittier (circa 1909) Seems to be the yellow/green scheme

Bushnell Clodfelter photo *(circa 1916) and TVA Archives (yellow/green)

Balsam – a few early photos (yellow/green)

 

It would seem that depots were the pre-1925 scheme unless they needed painting. (including white trim??)

I have not found any photos which appear to be the green with yellow trim.

Yes there are photo of the post 1945 scheme of gray with white trim.

 

BTW, the yellow used at Montpelier station (you can find photos on line are based on mass-spec analysis of paint layers done during a very good restoration effort.

 

Now some depots that have been restored do show the yellow. Some show the yellow/green. Some have red doors some have yellow white.

 

If anyone has definitive info on any depot paint with time etc. A few of us might be interested.


Gordon Andrews

 

moderated Re: [ModelingTheSouthern] Groups and Paint

George Eichelberger
 

Gordon:

For "The things I don’t know”, might you contact the group owners or moderators for answers?

The SouthernRailway, ModelingTheSouthern, and SRHA.io groups are all affiliated with the Southern Railway Historical Association……is that not obvious by the amount of information they include from the SRHA archives?

I won’t take the bandwidth to attempt to answer your questions but here is a question from me?
How, exactly, did SRHA and SRHS “co-exist”? What do you know about how either organization was chartered or organized? What happened to SRHS assets?


On Jul 9, 2019, at 12:10 PM, milepost 131 <mp131.ghandrews@...> wrote:

This IS being cross-posted to the two yahoogroups and the groups.io

 

The things I don’t know:

 

1. What’s up with photo/files/messages

2 Depot Paint

 

Why we have members asking about files and photos…

 

Now to the various and sundry internet discussion groups- shades of the old days when SRHS and SRHA co-existed.

 


moderated Re: [ModelingTheSouthern] Groups and Paint

Robert Hanson
 

George - 

Contact me off-list and I'll tell you - or at least TRY to tell you - about the SRHS/SRHA thing.

Long, long, story.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2019 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] [ModelingTheSouthern] Groups and Paint

Gordon:

For "The things I don’t know”, might you contact the group owners or moderators for answers?

The SouthernRailway, ModelingTheSouthern, and SRHA.io groups are all affiliated with the Southern Railway Historical Association……is that not obvious by the amount of information they include from the SRHA archives?

I won’t take the bandwidth to attempt to answer your questions but here is a question from me?
How, exactly, did SRHA and SRHS “co-exist”? What do you know about how either organization was chartered or organized? What happened to SRHS assets?


On Jul 9, 2019, at 12:10 PM, milepost 131 <mp131.ghandrews@...> wrote:
This IS being cross-posted to the two yahoogroups and the groups.io
 
The things I don’t know:
 
1. What’s up with photo/files/messages
2 Depot Paint
 
Why we have members asking about files and photos…
 
Now to the various and sundry internet discussion groups- shades of the old days when SRHS and SRHA co-existed.
 

moderated Southern Railway Presidents' Files Finding Aid DRAFT Version

George Eichelberger
 

They are not perfect but the enclosed Google Drive link will allow everyone to download a copy of the current draft of the Southern Railway Presidents' Files Finding Aids.

We need to begin an archives work session project to "QC" each entry against the contents of the files and make whatever corrections or additions we need. You'll note the intro to each year mentions the entry is "representative" of its contents. The folder includes MS Word or Excel files for each year since the formation of the Southern. (The Google Drive viewer appears to want to alter the Excel files but let's simply ignore that for now. It may be best to download them...)

The link (open in your browser) is:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tqb3kBvEvyRo5dRvJcPmL7KfW0M1nA-4?usp=sharing

I find myself constantly wanting to "click" on an entry so I can see the entire file (some have 200 pages). Maybe someday, with enough volunteer or paid help, that will be possible but for now folks will need to go the the archives to see their contents. Please understand, we do not have enough volunteers to respond to all requests for copies or scans. Priority will go to anyone working on articles for TIES, another historical group's publication or one of the commercial magazines. If anyone has ideas of how we might obtain a grant, we could pay students from the Univ of TN-Chattanooga to help.

Either plan on attending one of our third-weekend work sessions or send an email to archives@... if you plan to be at TVRM on other days so you can access the files and do your own research. (Looking though files and seeing 4501 under steam just across the street is worth the trip.)

Ike 

moderated Re: Speeder setouts

George Eichelberger
 

I notice no one has responded to this post yet. Although I cannot locate my copies of the Southern Railway standards books, if someone can look there, they may (!!) include plans for a track speeder set-out track with recommendations as to where they should be located. I am heading to the archives on Friday, I'll look at the different versions we have there.

Ike

moderated Re: Speeder setouts

pschmidt3013@...
 

Thank you, Ike.
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA

moderated Re: Speeder setouts

Bill Schafer
 

For what it’s worth, I don’t remember seeing any standards for a set-off track other than, maybe, at a track shed. I’m not sure such a specific standard existed, so I too would be interested in seeing a standard if someone finds one.

—Bill

On Jul 10, 2019, at 8:51 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

I notice no one has responded to this post yet. Although I cannot locate my copies of the Southern Railway standards books, if someone can look there, they may (!!) include plans for a track speeder set-out track with recommendations as to where they should be located. I am heading to the archives on Friday, I'll look at the different versions we have there.

Ike

moderated Re: Speeder setouts

George Eichelberger
 

Bill:

I checked a number of ETTs thinking there may have been some kind of code showing MPs where they located…no luck there.

Might the issue be that because a speeder could be moved off the track many places to clear up for trains, the local Track Supervisors and Signal Maintainers did not need a formal list?

Ike


On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

For what it’s worth, I don’t remember seeing any standards for a set-off track other than, maybe, at a track shed. I’m not sure such a specific standard existed, so I too would be interested in seeing a standard if someone finds one.

—Bill

On Jul 10, 2019, at 8:51 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

I notice no one has responded to this post yet. Although I cannot locate my copies of the Southern Railway standards books, if someone can look there, they may (!!) include plans for a track speeder set-out track with recommendations as to where they should be located. I am heading to the archives on Friday, I'll look at the different versions we have there.

Ike


moderated Re: Speeder setouts

Bill Schafer
 

I never saw a list of where the setoffs were, at least on the Southern. When I started in MofW in 1971 (which was before the hi-rail era), I don’t recall ever setting off at a purpose-made location (or even seeing one on our territory) - there were too many grade crossings, which came in handy. My sense is that setoffs were common in areas where grade crossings were few and far between. 

—Bill

On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:59 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Bill:

I checked a number of ETTs thinking there may have been some kind of code showing MPs where they located…no luck there.

Might the issue be that because a speeder could be moved off the track many places to clear up for trains, the local Track Supervisors and Signal Maintainers did not need a formal list?

Ike


On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

For what it’s worth, I don’t remember seeing any standards for a set-off track other than, maybe, at a track shed. I’m not sure such a specific standard existed, so I too would be interested in seeing a standard if someone finds one.

—Bill

On Jul 10, 2019, at 8:51 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

I notice no one has responded to this post yet. Although I cannot locate my copies of the Southern Railway standards books, if someone can look there, they may (!!) include plans for a track speeder set-out track with recommendations as to where they should be located. I am heading to the archives on Friday, I'll look at the different versions we have there.

Ike



moderated Re: Speeder setouts

David Payne
 


I appreciate Bill validating what I was thinking; the photos that I remember seeing of speeder setoffs, and not necessarily on Southern, were in remote places and perhaps outside tunnel portals.  As Bill pointed out, it is easy enough to “clear up” at the numerous grade crossings, especially for any of the M-type cars.  The A-cars would have been more of an issue, but I understand that many had “turntables” in the frame which could be lowered so that the car could be rotated, then raised, and rolled off the track.  Perhaps Bill can verify that a section crew would normally seek “clearance” for the “A” car and the trailers, which may have been loaded with rail and/or ties, in a convenient spur or siding.
DPayne



On Jul 11, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

I never saw a list of where the setoffs were, at least on the Southern. When I started in MofW in 1971 (which was before the hi-rail era), I don’t recall ever setting off at a purpose-made location (or even seeing one on our territory) - there were too many grade crossings, which came in handy. My sense is that setoffs were common in areas where grade crossings were few and far between. 

—Bill

On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:59 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Bill:

I checked a number of ETTs thinking there may have been some kind of code showing MPs where they located…no luck there.

Might the issue be that because a speeder could be moved off the track many places to clear up for trains, the local Track Supervisors and Signal Maintainers did not need a formal list?

Ike


On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

For what it’s worth, I don’t remember seeing any standards for a set-off track other than, maybe, at a track shed. I’m not sure such a specific standard existed, so I too would be interested in seeing a standard if someone finds one.

—Bill

On Jul 10, 2019, at 8:51 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

I notice no one has responded to this post yet. Although I cannot locate my copies of the Southern Railway standards books, if someone can look there, they may (!!) include plans for a track speeder set-out track with recommendations as to where they should be located. I am heading to the archives on Friday, I'll look at the different versions we have there.

Ike



moderated Re: Speeder setouts

Bill Schafer
 

When I came along, David, the Southern was no longer using A-cars, at least on my part of the railroad. When we changed rail (such as behind the Sperry car) we used a “rail changer” (RCM), which was an old ballast regulator minus the wings that served as a tractor that pulled two push cars behind it that held stick rail. The RCM was equipped with a fixed boom that could swing from side to side that had a cable with rail dogs on the end of it. The cable could be raised or lowered with a winch built into the RCM. This is how the rail was lifted on or off the push cars. Also, the push cars were modified with hydraulic brakes controlled from the RCM. Obviously, such an outfit couldn’t be lifted off the track when a train was due, so when the RCM got out on the railroad, it was preceded by an M-19 with two guys in it (typically the supervisor and a crank hand). About six guys rode on the RCM sideboards, and another M-19 brought up the rear, again with two guys on it. The two M-19s provided the flagging fore and aft (if we were in dark or train order territory; otherwise we’d have 23-A protection in CTC territory), but the flag protection was imperfect, and I was in a situation once where our rail changeout gang barely escaped getting hit by a train. I’m sure RCMs are history now, replaced by Brandt trucks or somesuch, which nowadays are protected by track warrants (or whatever they're called) when out on the main line.

—Bill



On Jul 11, 2019, at 2:06 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:


I appreciate Bill validating what I was thinking; the photos that I remember seeing of speeder setoffs, and not necessarily on Southern, were in remote places and perhaps outside tunnel portals.  As Bill pointed out, it is easy enough to “clear up” at the numerous grade crossings, especially for any of the M-type cars.  The A-cars would have been more of an issue, but I understand that many had “turntables” in the frame which could be lowered so that the car could be rotated, then raised, and rolled off the track.  Perhaps Bill can verify that a section crew would normally seek “clearance” for the “A” car and the trailers, which may have been loaded with rail and/or ties, in a convenient spur or siding.
DPayne



On Jul 11, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

I never saw a list of where the setoffs were, at least on the Southern. When I started in MofW in 1971 (which was before the hi-rail era), I don’t recall ever setting off at a purpose-made location (or even seeing one on our territory) - there were too many grade crossings, which came in handy. My sense is that setoffs were common in areas where grade crossings were few and far between. 

—Bill

On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:59 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Bill:

I checked a number of ETTs thinking there may have been some kind of code showing MPs where they located…no luck there.

Might the issue be that because a speeder could be moved off the track many places to clear up for trains, the local Track Supervisors and Signal Maintainers did not need a formal list?

Ike


On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

For what it’s worth, I don’t remember seeing any standards for a set-off track other than, maybe, at a track shed. I’m not sure such a specific standard existed, so I too would be interested in seeing a standard if someone finds one.

—Bill

On Jul 10, 2019, at 8:51 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

I notice no one has responded to this post yet. Although I cannot locate my copies of the Southern Railway standards books, if someone can look there, they may (!!) include plans for a track speeder set-out track with recommendations as to where they should be located. I am heading to the archives on Friday, I'll look at the different versions we have there.

Ike




moderated Re: Speeder setouts

pschmidt3013@...
 

I've learned a lot already just from the replies. Always fascinates me how trying to unearth one bit of prototype information leads to so many other nuggets of knowledge. 
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA

moderated Re: Speeder setouts

 

Yes, I agree.  In fact, I’ve been thinking this discussion could easily lead up to a terrific article for ‘Ties’ magazine.  It seems so little is written about MW.  It just seems to beg for more.  Thanks for this discussion, fellas.
 
Ed Locklin at mp367.
 
 
 
 

From: pschmidt3013@...
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 8:00 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Speeder setouts
 
I've learned a lot already just from the replies. Always fascinates me how trying to unearth one bit of prototype information leads to so many other nuggets of knowledge.
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA

moderated Re: Speeder setouts

John Hedrick
 

Pre-dating Bill by a few years, I was told A type cars had been "outlawed" on the Southern before my time.

I was involved with replacing broken rails by chaining the replacement rail under an M-19 motorcar to get it to the site. We'd use lining bars to guide the rail over grade crossings and turnouts. One such replacement was on the NO&NE mainline. However, the RCM was used following the Sperry Car.

John O. Hedrick

moderated Yesterday and next weekend at the SRHA archives

George Eichelberger
 

First: AC reminder, the usual third weekend of the month SRHA Archives work session is Friday and Saturday. (Several of us will be there in Thursday if anyone wold like to joiun us then.)

Yesterday and Friday was an opportunity to spend some time organizing the Hayne Shop files and looking through the Southern Railway Presidents' files. Even though items appear in the Presidents' files finding aids, until you look through the archives boxes it is difficult to understand how much is in them, and how important, some are.

Two large groups of files I had never spent much time on were the WWI era ARA (American Railway Association, predecessor to the AAR) and USRA files. In addition to providing material for multiple TIES articles, they represent a source of significant academic or historical research. Although I expect most of us think "rolling stock" when he see "USRA", the extent of the Govt's control over the railroads in many operational areas was much more extensive than I realized. The conflicts and demands made by USRA in WWI are clearly the reason the railroads were so opposed to the same thing during WWII and Korea. Forcing the railroads that operated passenger trains between Chicago and St. Louis to reduce and coordinate their services is one example.

Before and during the USRA, the ARA established a committee to work with the War Department on transportation issues. Southern President Fairfax Harrison was the Chairman of that group...obviously the reason so many records were kept in his files.

The attached are four pages from the July 15, 1916 notice of the committee's formation.

Ike

PS Several of us will be at the SRHA table at the Collinsville RPM the end of th e month, stop by and say hello. 

moderated Re: A Silverside off-line?

waym0re@...
 

I inherited many slides from a deceased friend's collection.  He attended many NRHS conventions and one group of slides he marked 1960 NRHS convetion [the mounts didn't show dates] covered SRy F through Natural Tunnel and Middlesboro, KY.  Also in the group were of ET&WNC 207 pulling an excursion train, with open gon for riders, on the Clinchfield.  No way of telling if was all one trip or two different trips as numbering on the mounts looked like a 20 - 22 roll for each trip.  Vaguely remember seeing somewhere in his collection a shot of the spruced up 475 and now I'll have to keep in mind film type and mount number to see if it fit into either of these groups of about 8 -10 slides each.  Anyway, to this old mind would think it reasonable to have on display at this convention the engine and gon in the subject photo.

moderated Office of Defense Transportation (ODT) Files in the SRHA archives

George Eichelberger
 

We had another productive work session at the SRHA archives this past Thursday. Friday and Saturday. Although there is a lot of work to be done, we are making visible progress. Join us in August....

My project was to find files in the SR Presidents' collection that we can use as the basis for TIES articles. The (40, page) issue now at the printers has several articles that came directly from the files. I'll ask Editor Bill Schafer to post a description of what is in the issue. Folks that are not SRHA members may be able to get a copy where White River publications are sold or directly from the SRHA company store.

In addition to the troop movements before D Day and operations in the Pacific, the ODT issued various orders that forced the railroads to cut back on passenger services after the war was over. In addition to many other examples in the files, I've attached three pages from an AAR letter describing the number of people estimated to be moved to their "home stations" in 1945 and 46. The ODT is certainly a subject that needs to/ be researched and written about in multiple historical group magazines. The request for someone to produce an article on the Yellow Fever epidemic of 1917 has produced two superb articles that are in the TIES now at the printer. If someone is interested in learning and writing about the ODT in WWII, let me know.

Ike

moderated Re: Office of Defense Transportation (ODT) Files in the SRHA archives

Bill Schafer
 

Table of contents of 2019-3 TIES, to be mailed this upcoming week:

* “In Case of Fire, Break Latticed Crate” - history and replication of Southern’s standard water barrel/fire bucket for putting out fires on bridges and at stations. Replica reproduced using SOU’s standards, found in Archives (Standards books are for sale through the Grab  - srha.net)
* "The 1905 Yellow Fever Epidemic in New Orleans" plus two sidebars: "Yellow Fever Quarantine Notices" (from the Archives) and “Order out of Chaos” - why the 1905 epidemic was the U.S.’s last.
* "Southern Railway Agreements and Contracts" - overview of agreements between Southern and its subsidiaries or Southern/affiliates/subsidiaries and other companies - 1871-1960. Found in Archives and being scanned.
* "GS&F-SAL - Junction and Depot, Hampton, Fla.” Description of agreements covering crossing at grade and joint depot at Hampton, Fla. - 1914-1950. An example of one set of agreements from the Contract Books in the Archives
* “The Celebrity” - a teenager’s account of a Southern inspection train arriving Appalachia, Va. with Graham Claytor aboard.
* "SRHA 2019 Convention wrap-up"

—Bill



On Jul 21, 2019, at 4:10 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

We had another productive work session at the SRHA archives this past Thursday. Friday and Saturday. Although there is a lot of work to be done, we are making visible progress. Join us in August....

My project was to find files in the SR Presidents' collection that we can use as the basis for TIES articles. The (40, page) issue now at the printers has several articles that came directly from the files. I'll ask Editor Bill Schafer to post a description of what is in the issue. Folks that are not SRHA members may be able to get a copy where White River publications are sold or directly from the SRHA company store.

In addition to the troop movements before D Day and operations in the Pacific, the ODT issued various orders that forced the railroads to cut back on passenger services after the war was over. In addition to many other examples in the files, I've attached three pages from an AAR letter describing the number of people estimated to be moved to their "home stations" in 1945 and 46. The ODT is certainly a subject that needs to/ be researched and written about in multiple historical group magazines. The request for someone to produce an article on the Yellow Fever epidemic of 1917 has produced two superb articles that are in the TIES now at the printer. If someone is interested in learning and writing about the ODT in WWII, let me know.

Ike
<1945-10-5 Pg 1 copy.jpg><1945-10-5 Pg 2 copy.jpg><1945-10-5 Pg 3 copy.jpg>

moderated Re: A Silverside off-line?

Jim King
 

The Silverside gon with N&W 475 was taken in Bristol VA at the N&W yard during a September 1960 NRHS convention.  I have a color negative of 475 taken there; the Silverside slide you saw (came from ebay auction) showed part of an N&W GP-9 or -18 in the background.  There is another view of 475 with a set of stairs going into the cab for visitors and part of the Silverside in the background.

 

Jim King

SMMW

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

George Eichelberger
 

I have mentioned TVRM has purchased ex Southern Budd dining car #3307 from Amtrak. It will soon be moving from Beech Grove to TVRM for service.

From the "when it rains it pours" category, TVRM is also purchasing (from a private individual) Norfolk Southern Office car #8, ex Southern OC #5. Originally Pullman "Point Richmond", the car was converted to Southern #21 on 3-24-54, to #6 on 10-26-70 and to #5 on 8-11-72. Southern official cars were renumbered as the person they were assigned to was promoted. The car is in generally good condition with a number of modifications and repairs for Amtrak service already done. (The fact that NS named the car "Tennessee" seems particularly fitting for its new home in Chattanooga.)

Although the purchase price for both cars has been donated, there will be significant costs to move and restore OC 5. If anyone (!) would like to help with donations for putting both cars in service, please contact me or TVRM President Tim Andrews.

Ike

PS The "rain" continues...the first of two Southern 40' low side gons has been trucked to TVRM from Norfolk, VA, he second will follow shortly. One will be painted black with SOUTHERN lettering in the cars' original black paint scheme, the other in the 1959/60 Freight Car Brown scheme with block lettering. Both will be used in MoW service and photo freights.