Date   

locked Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s

Alexander Smart
 

Hello 

I model Southern outdoors in 1/29 scale and indoors in HO, in Oban, Scotland.
I need more information, photos and possibly diagrams of the consist of these trains.
I checked Ralph Ward’s Southern Railway Pictorial which shows such a train at Asheville in July 1973: CNO&TP F7 6119, caboose X636, UTLX tank car 39918 and 2 special sprayer cars including 991495.
I have in 1/29 an F3, caboose and tank car but need to adapt and detail a couple of flatcars to the sprayer car specifics. 
This would make a very unusual and striking extra on my garden railroad!
If anyone has more information, particularly photos or diagrams of these cars, I would be very grateful.

Kind regards

Sandy Smart


locked Re: Southern B36-7

WR
 

Bob 

I was hoping you would chime in. I guess I should have waited a few minutes more before typing my last reply. Thank you for the info and also confirming my conclusion on GE delivering all 6 with white boards.

As I stated the Rapido models all have the white boards and they all have 3 antennas. This is a minor mistake in my opinion and easily corrected. I have only had them for 2 days, but I would give Rapido a 9 out 10 for their effort. It seems that regardless of the manufacturer, mistakes are made. Some easily corrected, others not so. As a long time Southern modeler I can recall a time when the only way to get a Southern model was to kitbash it or scratch build it. So I will take what becomes available and fix the bugs.

Thanks again for your expertise on Southern motive power.

Walt 


locked Re: Southern B36-7

WR
 

Thanks Scott for the info. I have the Southern Motive Power 68-82 book, but was (still) confused by it listing only 3815 and 3816 as RC equipped units. The Paul Withers Southern Motive Power 1939-1982 book has a photo of 3818 with 3819 trailing with both units wearing white number boards. Caption on photo dated April 2, 1981 at Ludlow, KY states units were on their first run on home rails. Builders date is 3/81 so they were fresh from GE. Both upper and lower baffles are present on 3818. After more research today, I have located photos of all 6 units with white numbers boards. But as you stated I cannot see the additional firecracker antennas on 3818. A photo on Tom Daspit's site dated July 12,1981 shows 3816 with white number boards and 3 antennas followed by 3820 also with white number boards but with only one antenna visible on the cab. 2 more photos found on the RR pictures archive site by Bernie Feldman dated Nov 22, 1981 at Atlanta GA show 3815 white boards and 3 antenna followed by 3818 with black boards. The other photo shows 3816 with white boards and 3 antenna followed by 3820 with black boards. Also of interest in these two photos are the exhaust stacks of 3815 and 3816 covered in plastic wrap. Probably all 6 units were there at the same time. Conclusions from this photo trail can lead one to believe that all 6 B36-7's were delivered from GE with white number boards regardless of Locotrol equipment installed. A mistake by GE similar to the lettering style on the U30C's.
From the two Bernie Feldman photos one can assume that the units were being shopped at Atlanta to correct these mistakes 8 months after being delivered. 

My modeling period is late Sep early Oct of 1981, so I guess I am safe leaving the white boards on all 3 units, but the additional antennas on 3818 and 3819 will have to go. :-)

Walt


locked Re: Southern B36-7

Robert Graham
 

SOU B36-7 3815, 3816 were equipped with Locotrol and had the 3  antennas on the roof. The Locotrol equipment was deactivated in 3815-3816 circa 1984. The 1985 NS form 1014 shows these 2 equipped only with provision for Locotrol, but no longer active or capable as leaders.

SOU 3817-3820 were never so equipped.

GE erred upon delivery in 1981 and all 6 (3815-3820 ) were delivered incorrectly with white number boards with black numerals, documented photographically. SOU quickly corrected this mistake and 3815-3816 only were shortly after delivery the only 2 with the proper white number boards indicating Locotrol master. The other 4 went to the proper black number board with white numerals.

The B36-7's were delivered in 1981; the NS merger occurred June 1982. The NS adopted the N&W number board standard of white with black numerals. After several years, former SOU locomotives that had been equipped with black number boards with white numerals began having the new standard of NS white number boards installed. When a former SOU locomotive was seen with the white number boards, it would raise the attention of the casual observer to think it was Locotrol equipped. This era can be confusing to the modeler and locomotive historian regarding number board color and what it means. Just "finding a photo" is only useful if the date it was made is known to be able to view it in proper context.

I have not seen a Rapido B36-7, so can not comment on how well other details were replicated. But, I can state that Rapido and its representatives were made fully aware of the full array of SOU B36-7 details and peculiarities prior to production.


Bob Graham

   


-----------------------------------------

From: "WR"
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday November 26 2019 2:50:59PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern B36-7

Here's some questions for the motive power gurus. 
I have just received my Rapido B36-7's. Rapido chose to model numbers 3816, 3818, and 3819. All three have the white number boards with black numerals indicating the units were equipped as Locotrol masters. Also have the extra antennas. 
From the limited photos I have located in books and online this appears to be correct. So did all 6 B36-7's come from GE with Locotrol installed?
It also appears that the Locotrol equipment was removed after a short time, evidenced by the black number boards with white numerals in later photographs. When was the Locotrol equipment removed from these units?

Walt Rieger
Covington, LA


locked Re: Southern B36-7

George Eichelberger
 

We have the Specifications, order quotes and documentation on virtually every diesel the Southern purchased starting in 1940. Let’s remember, and make the time to check the file on the B-36-7s for Locotrol equipment before or during the December archives work session. 

(The 2020 archives work session schedule will be in the next TIES and on the SRHA web site. For 2019, we moved dates from the third weekend (defined as a Friday and Saturday) to avoid Monday holidays. For 2020 some sessions will be on a three day weekend. That may make it easier for people that have to come from farther away to visit the archives.)

Ike


On Nov 26, 2019, at 4:08 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

According to the Withers & Sink book "Southern Motive Power 1968-1982" only the 3815 and 3816 had RC gear.  Only two are pictured in the book, 3815 and 3818, both in 1986.  Both had black numberboards.  3815 had an extra firecracker amidships which tells me she had Locotrol.

A photo of brand new 3818 and 3819 in X2200South#73pg15 shows the white numberboards but I don't see the firecracker amidships.  Hmmm...

FWIW, I don't recall seeing the B36s when I worked at Inman in the early '80s.  The B30s, yes.


Scott Chatfield



WR <ratholer138@...> wrote:
Here's some questions for the motive power gurus. 
I have just received my Rapido B36-7's. Rapido chose to model numbers 3816, 3818, and 3819. All three have the white number boards with black numerals indicating the units were equipped as Locotrol masters. Also have the extra antennas. 
From the limited photos I have located in books and online this appears to be correct. So did all 6 B36-7's come from GE with Locotrol installed?
It also appears that the Locotrol equipment was removed after a short time, evidenced by the black number boards with white numerals in later photographs. When was the Locotrol equipment removed from these units?

Walt Rieger
Covington, LA


locked Re: Southern B36-7

D. Scott Chatfield
 

According to the Withers & Sink book "Southern Motive Power 1968-1982" only the 3815 and 3816 had RC gear.  Only two are pictured in the book, 3815 and 3818, both in 1986.  Both had black numberboards.  3815 had an extra firecracker amidships which tells me she had Locotrol.

A photo of brand new 3818 and 3819 in X2200South#73pg15 shows the white numberboards but I don't see the firecracker amidships.  Hmmm...

FWIW, I don't recall seeing the B36s when I worked at Inman in the early '80s.  The B30s, yes.


Scott Chatfield



WR <ratholer138@...> wrote:
Here's some questions for the motive power gurus. 
I have just received my Rapido B36-7's. Rapido chose to model numbers 3816, 3818, and 3819. All three have the white number boards with black numerals indicating the units were equipped as Locotrol masters. Also have the extra antennas. 
From the limited photos I have located in books and online this appears to be correct. So did all 6 B36-7's come from GE with Locotrol installed?
It also appears that the Locotrol equipment was removed after a short time, evidenced by the black number boards with white numerals in later photographs. When was the Locotrol equipment removed from these units?

Walt Rieger
Covington, LA


locked Southern B36-7

WR
 

Here's some questions for the motive power gurus. 
I have just received my Rapido B36-7's. Rapido chose to model numbers 3816, 3818, and 3819. All three have the white number boards with black numerals indicating the units were equipped as Locotrol masters. Also have the extra antennas. 
From the limited photos I have located in books and online this appears to be correct. So did all 6 B36-7's come from GE with Locotrol installed?
It also appears that the Locotrol equipment was removed after a short time, evidenced by the black number boards with white numerals in later photographs. When was the Locotrol equipment removed from these units?

Walt Rieger
Covington, LA


locked Re: Richmond & Danville "Despatch"

Matt Bumgarner
 

Ike-
Have you happened to run across any lettering diagrams for a Richmond & Danville boxcar?

Thanks

Matt Bumgarner

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 5:35 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Until I learn how to cut some of the "thread" material out of messages, I'll make this separate.

Looking around in the SRHA digital files for additional info on the SR Arrow monogram, I found the attached stencil scheme for
Southern vent box cars from 1897. The "billboard" stencil uses new "SR" initials but also includes "R&D Despatch" negotiated
Aug 1, 1887. (Contract No 28, the cover and page 1 are attached. I can post the other six pages if anyone is interested.)

One question I cannot find an answer for.....why is "dispatch" spelled "despatch" here and on "Atlantic Coast Despatch" (PRR/ACL)? from the same period?
Note the cover and first page of the contract use "dispatch" spelling.

Ike

Ike


locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Stuart Thayer
 

Ryan,

No problem.  What you describe is essentially what I recommended Dan do to be able to model a whole train but he declined to do it.  What you describe is a great approach to effectively model the unique variation of the Ortner Rapid Discharge cars that the Southern used without getting overwhelmed by the project.  I look forward to seeing what you create.

Stuart Thayer

In a message dated 11/24/2019 6:47:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, ryan.harris@... writes:

I am familiar with Dan's model and it is fantastic. I understand why he built only one. And I didn't mean to diminish any of the work he did on that model by making the point that the kitbash boiled down to removing the center bays. Obviously it was much more involved than that and he left no stone unturned.

I am not interested in doing that kind of a 99% kitbash because I want 40 of them. Instead the kitbash I'm talking about does boil down to removing the center bay, adding a few details and living with a lot of things that aren't right. This is the type of kitbash I meant when I said it would be easy. I can't imagine many people would be willing to even attempt Dan's kitbash. Like you said, he only did it once.

My plan for a good enough kitbash is to 3D print some new parts, including an insert for the open area created by removing the center bay, new brake and door air equipment, and a set of interior braces. I'll have to ignore the lack of rivets and the embossed beads on the panels. I might not worry about the channels in place of the side stakes at the carbody ends, but I'll have to see about that. When I start with an MDC Roundhouse car, as in the case of the 10,000th Ortner car, I'll add the door opening hardware and do some additional work on the ends that the Athearn RTR version won't need.

Now if I wanted to build a model that was similarly faithful to the Southern version, I wouldn't kitbash it and I certainly wouldn't start with the MDC Roundhouse model. Instead, I'd draw it in 3D and break it down as a flat kit to 3D print. Then I'd have resin copies made of the individual parts.

I did something similar after I damaged my WrightTrak radio car, minus the resin casting part. I had already made drawings of the car back in the 90s before I was aware WrightTrak even existed. From those drawings I scratchbuilt a model from styrene many years ago. Later on I acquired one of the WrightTrak resin kits, but I damaged the body. So I went back to my old CAD drawings and modified them from 2D to 3D and then designed a kit, which I 3D printed. Here's how that turned out:

https://pbase.com/mecrharris/image/167249896

But doing all that -- while certainly easier than Dan's involved kitbash process -- would cost a small fortune. A much smaller fortune can instead be spent fixing the things that matter to me: four bays instead of five, interior bracing details, adding door opening hardware, adding ladders at all four corners, etc. It won't be a perfect model, but again I need forty of them so I'm not aiming for perfection here. 

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Ryan Harris
 

Great find, Ike! A high resolution version of this would be very helpful. Thanks for sharing it.
--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Ryan Harris
 

I am familiar with Dan's model and it is fantastic. I understand why he built only one. And I didn't mean to diminish any of the work he did on that model by making the point that the kitbash boiled down to removing the center bays. Obviously it was much more involved than that and he left no stone unturned.

I am not interested in doing that kind of a 99% kitbash because I want 40 of them. Instead the kitbash I'm talking about does boil down to removing the center bay, adding a few details and living with a lot of things that aren't right. This is the type of kitbash I meant when I said it would be easy. I can't imagine many people would be willing to even attempt Dan's kitbash. Like you said, he only did it once.

My plan for a good enough kitbash is to 3D print some new parts, including an insert for the open area created by removing the center bay, new brake and door air equipment, and a set of interior braces. I'll have to ignore the lack of rivets and the embossed beads on the panels. I might not worry about the channels in place of the side stakes at the carbody ends, but I'll have to see about that. When I start with an MDC Roundhouse car, as in the case of the 10,000th Ortner car, I'll add the door opening hardware and do some additional work on the ends that the Athearn RTR version won't need.

Now if I wanted to build a model that was similarly faithful to the Southern version, I wouldn't kitbash it and I certainly wouldn't start with the MDC Roundhouse model. Instead, I'd draw it in 3D and break it down as a flat kit to 3D print. Then I'd have resin copies made of the individual parts.

I did something similar after I damaged my WrightTrak radio car, minus the resin casting part. I had already made drawings of the car back in the 90s before I was aware WrightTrak even existed. From those drawings I scratchbuilt a model from styrene many years ago. Later on I acquired one of the WrightTrak resin kits, but I damaged the body. So I went back to my old CAD drawings and modified them from 2D to 3D and then designed a kit, which I 3D printed. Here's how that turned out:

https://pbase.com/mecrharris/image/167249896

But doing all that -- while certainly easier than Dan's involved kitbash process -- would cost a small fortune. A much smaller fortune can instead be spent fixing the things that matter to me: four bays instead of five, interior bracing details, adding door opening hardware, adding ladders at all four corners, etc. It won't be a perfect model, but again I need forty of them so I'm not aiming for perfection here. 

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

George Eichelberger
 

“Thin” Southern road name lettering

For years, I have thought, and told people, that SRHA did not have a stencil drawing of the last version of the “thin” Southern road name lettering. 

In the years before the N&W/Sou merger the SR Mechanical Dept. produced fewer and fewer new equipment drawings, relying on car builder drawings exclusively. The attached Ortner “stenciling” drawing OC-5075-7 is for 100T aggregate cars Sou 1109950-109999 from New Car Program (NCP)-226 and apparently was never traced by the Southern.

We will re-scan both the 35mm aperture card and the original drawings (in the archives?) to improve on this poor quality example. I’ll make sure scans of this, Ortner drawings 332-151 & 152 and get whatever other similar drawings we can locate to Hubert Mask at Mask Island in case he is interested in producing decals. (The thin lettering, in green, was also used on the last order(s) of 100T covered hoppers but we need to confirm the dimensions are the same.)

Ike




locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Stuart Thayer
 

Ryan,

In regards to your assertion that the SOU 4-bay ortners are an easy kitbash, I have to disagree.  My good friend Dan Bourque built one of these cars and he said to get the model correct it was an extremely difficult kitbash and one that he is not planning to ever try again due to it's complexity.  You have to essentially cut an MDC/Athearn 5-bay model apart and move the bays, redo the interior slope sheets between the bays, shorten overall length of the car, and simulate the depressed panels between the ribs that were done to increase the capacity of the car.  There was a lot of work.

Stuart Thayer

In a message dated 11/23/2019 2:24:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, ryan.harris@... writes:

In this discussion I was referring to the N scale model only to point out that it had all the data one would expect to find on the other cars in the series. I wonder if this was based in fact or if it was the artist simply making an educated guess as to how the car appeared. I like the idea that it did receive the additional markings, especially since I'm interested in the car in later years. Having seen the N scale model and the HO scale model by MDC Roundhouse, Eastern Seaboard Models did a much better job on the shape and placement of the large "ORTNER" lettering than MDC Roundhouse did.

I don't think anyone has made a mass-produced model of the four bay configuration used by Southern and Northern Pacific. I don't have production totals, but my suspicion is the five bay version was more popular than the four bay version. There were certainly more users of the five bay version, which makes the case for tooling the five bay version from the point of view of a manufacturer trying to get the most bang for the buck. Athearn has gone on to upgrade the MDC Roundhouse five bay Ortner tooling they purchased and have released it in Southern previously (in the five bay version, unfortunately). Another release of Southern Ortners is scheduled for next year.

For those who want to model a four bay version, the good news is it uses nearly the same overall dimensions as the five bay version (55'-0" over strikers for the five bay vs. 54'-6" over strikers for the four bay and 45'-1" truck centers for the five bay vs. 43'-7" truck centers for the four bay). It's a simple kitbash for those HO and N scale modelers who want to model the car with four bays instead of five.

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Time to reduce the memory used for attachments

Arthur J Bryson
 

I find the attachments very useful and understand the need to delete. Keep doing what needs to bedone.


locked Re: Time to reduce the memory used for attachments

RamblingReck
 

Advance warning of what you are deleting would be helpful.  

Sent from the iPhone of the Ramblin’ Wreck from Georgia Tech

On Nov 23, 2019, at 12:13 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

All:

We will keep allowing attachments to posts but it is about time to delete attachments from earlier messages to reduce our storage at groups.io.

We think some of the past attachments have been of interest but we do not plan to archive them at groups.io.  I'll wait a few days in case anyone wants a copy of anything before doing any deleting. If possible, I'll only delete attachments from the oldest messages but keep the message body. If someone sees the message text in the future, whoever sent the attachment can re-send it later.

Ike
PS Do list members find the attachments useful? We will probably use the SRHA file server for (larger) attachments using links or a notice from posts here. That allows us to get around size limitations on groups.io

--
John Ryan


locked Time to reduce the memory used for attachments

George Eichelberger
 

All:

We will keep allowing attachments to posts but it is about time to delete attachments from earlier messages to reduce our storage at groups.io.

We think some of the past attachments have been of interest but we do not plan to archive them at groups.io.  I'll wait a few days in case anyone wants a copy of anything before doing any deleting. If possible, I'll only delete attachments from the oldest messages but keep the message body. If someone sees the message text in the future, whoever sent the attachment can re-send it later.

Ike
PS Do list members find the attachments useful? We will probably use the SRHA file server for (larger) attachments using links or a notice from posts here. That allows us to get around size limitations on groups.io


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

Ryan Harris
 

Thanks for confirming the information Jason provided, Ike. Looking back at the builder's photos of the Greenville 3600cf open hoppers in the 1984 Car & Locomotive Cyclopedia the class label "HS58" is absent from the carbody side. I learn something new every day!
--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

George Eichelberger
 

Ryan:

Jason Greene is correct that Southern never had car classes. Any photo you see of a Southern freight car with a class designation was taken after the Sou/NS merger. At that time, the new NS Mechanical Dept (senior people were mostly ex N&W) simply expanded the N&W class system by adding an “S”. So BSnn indicates a Southern box car. N&W classes were not modified as a result of the merger. (I have never noticed if the same class number appeared on matching Bnn and BSnn cars. As the N&W built a very high proportion of its hopper cars and the Southern did not, I don’t expect there were many exact matches.)

Caution….many cars with complete Southern paint were given the new class stencils (I have been presented with photos as “proof” of Southern car classes. That may appear to have been from when the car was built but that is not correct.

Ike

PS After all of this…Southern DID have car classes for a very few years after the railroad was formed. There is an artifact of that on drawings into the 1900s. Usually in the upper right corner you will see a “Class” block. After classes were dropped, “Class” became something such as “box car”. (As they say..”never say never”.)


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

Ryan Harris
 

I see what you mean about the term "stenciling" Ike. I have run across drawings that lay out where each individual stencil is to be applied, which I believe is what you're referring to. Those drawings actually do fit what I'm looking for. However, I was thinking of a drawing where the dimensions and shape of the individual characters are laid out so they can be reproduced accurately. I used the term stencil because that is the term I saw used on this Southern Railway diagram:

https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=188131

This is the only Southern Railway stencil drawing of this type I found on the Norfolk and Western Historical Society archives, but honestly I was glad to have found anything Southern related there. Since Southern had such a unique letter and numeral style, I have to imagine more drawings than this single stencil drawing I found existed at one time or another. To my point, the letters and numerals on the Ortner cars in Warren Calloway's photos above are very close if not an exact match to the lettering used on Greenville cars in series 351862-352661 and Pullman Standard cars in series 88000-88499. I have to imagine the different builders used a common Southern Railway standard drawing to create stencils in their own shops, or at the very least the Southern Railway standard letters and numerals were specified on the individual drawings supplied to each builder.

I am very familiar with Mask Island decals. They are excellent quality and tend to be true to the prototype lettering. I was very pleased to learn he made decals for the boxcars rebuilt as flatcars to carry highway trailers. I had built a couple models of those cars and was almost resigned to painting them for Norfolk Southern when I was alerted to the newly released set. I have also purchased other Southern decals from Mask Island in the hopes of finding something I can use for the 360000-360999 series I mentioned earlier in the thread, but so far nothing is a good fit. If the SRHA has any drawings that might help Mask Island to produce the lightweight or "thin" letters and numerals found on the Ortner and Greenville open hopper series I mentioned and Warren Calloway's photos above depict, I would very much appreciate any help Mr. Mask might be given by the SRHA to produce those decals. There are unpainted models out there just waiting for these decals!

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

Ryan Harris
 

That's interesting, Jason. I'm certainly no expert on Southern railcars. I was using the terminology used in Andrew Dow's book, Norfolk and Western Coal Cars. In Appendix H there is a listing of "Coal Cars of the Southern Railway as may be found in service on Norfolk and Western coal routes." The Greenville cars I referred to in series 360000-360999 are listed as Southern class HS58 in this book.

I have some Southern equipment drawings of the Ortner quick dump hoppers (79425-79979, 79980 and 390000-390499). These are listed as Car Type K240 (K340 for the lone aluminum car) but no "class" is given on the diagram. In the Dow book the same Southern Ortner cars are listed as Southern classes HS24 through HS27 for the 79xxx cars and classes HS59 through HS61 for the 390xxx cars. I wonder if the concept of a Southern class of cars is a Norfolk Southern thing, since in the context of the book these cars are only considered as coal cars in the combined Norfolk Southern railroad.

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX

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