Date   

locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

Marv Clemons
 

Thanks, gents, for the plethora of information on the Vertagreen movements.  From your responses I've learned the shipments originated in Rockland, Florida and were routed Waycross-Jesup-Birmingham-Sheffield-Vertagreen, AL.

For forensic purposes, I've attached a copy of the morning consist copied at BT on June 26 1965 showing the tank cars coming in on the rear of #7.  I'm sure you'll recognize the other Southern consists, along with #33, SAL's Silver Comet.

I switched these cars on the rear of #7 & 8 while working the towers at Birmingham and Atlanta terminals. It was really strange seeing them tacked on to the rear of the heavyweight Pullman out of Atlanta. But this was the Brosnan era when passenger trains had become primarily mail, express, and in this case, expedited freight carriers.

Regards,
Marv


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

C J Wyatt
 

I believe the Kansas City - Florida Special was gone by the time of the SCL merger, so the Jessup routing would have no longer had a service advantage. 

Jack Wyatt

On Saturday, December 14, 2019, 09:32:51 AM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Ed:

Do you recall if the routing via Jessup continued after the SCL merger? Prior to that, the interchange between the ACL and Southern was at Tiftton, GA, nothing was done through Jax. The Tifton-not-Jacksonville scheme went back to the original Sou ACL trackage rights agreement from Hardeeville/Savannah to Jax.

The Southern wanted several thnings in the SCL merger, one was to interchange with the SCL at Jacksonville. The ICC denied that so the SR went to court. Thagt was the only condiiton they managed to get.

There are Extensive files on the SCL merger in the SRHA archives.

Ike

On Dec 14, 2019, at 8:46 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

If I recall correctly these are the cars that were routed from the Bone Valley to Waycross then put behind the caboose on a manifest freight to Savannah and cut off on the fly at Jesup,GA. The ACL/SCL Jesup switcher would then deliver them to the Southern.

Ed Mims


On Dec 13, 2019, at 6:21 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Marv:

There was a full article on these cars in TIES magazine a few years ago. Someone needs to help find which issue.

It has always been unusual for any railroad to own revenue tank cars. There were two groups of 100T capy cars blt by ACF and GATX, painted Southern freight car brown. They were in captive service between Rockland, FL and Vertagreen, near Sheffield, AL. (Rockland was east of Mulberry, FL off SR 60). I lived in Sarasota and Brandon at the time so I was able to photograph them parked beside the highway quite often.

The attached photo of Sou 323 was taken at Chattanooga 8-93 long after the Vertagreen service ended. They could not be used to ship flammable materials (like diesel fuel) so they were used to store used oil at Citico (and probably other shops).

Ike
<Sou 323-2.jpeg>


On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons



locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

Ed Mims
 

Ike, I don’t recall others routings for the “phosphoric acid tanks” as they were called. I learned about this from an ex-Southern superintendent who became Supt. of Mine Service for ACL in the Bone Valley after he was fired once too many times on the Southern. His first name was Terry but I can’t recall his last name.

I spent a good bit of time with him in my early days on the ACL. He was very helpful to me.

Ed


On Dec 14, 2019, at 9:32 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Ed:

Do you recall if the routing via Jessup continued after the SCL merger? Prior to that, the interchange between the ACL and Southern was at Tiftton, GA, nothing was done through Jax. The Tifton-not-Jacksonville scheme went back to the original Sou ACL trackage rights agreement from Hardeeville/Savannah to Jax.

The Southern wanted several thnings in the SCL merger, one was to interchange with the SCL at Jacksonville. The ICC denied that so the SR went to court. Thagt was the only condiiton they managed to get.

There are Extensive files on the SCL merger in the SRHA archives.

Ike

On Dec 14, 2019, at 8:46 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

If I recall correctly these are the cars that were routed from the Bone Valley to Waycross then put behind the caboose on a manifest freight to Savannah and cut off on the fly at Jesup,GA. The ACL/SCL Jesup switcher would then deliver them to the Southern.

Ed Mims


On Dec 13, 2019, at 6:21 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Marv:

There was a full article on these cars in TIES magazine a few years ago. Someone needs to help find which issue.

It has always been unusual for any railroad to own revenue tank cars. There were two groups of 100T capy cars blt by ACF and GATX, painted Southern freight car brown. They were in captive service between Rockland, FL and Vertagreen, near Sheffield, AL. (Rockland was east of Mulberry, FL off SR 60). I lived in Sarasota and Brandon at the time so I was able to photograph them parked beside the highway quite often.

The attached photo of Sou 323 was taken at Chattanooga 8-93 long after the Vertagreen service ended. They could not be used to ship flammable materials (like diesel fuel) so they were used to store used oil at Citico (and probably other shops).

Ike
<Sou 323-2.jpeg>


On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons



locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

George Eichelberger
 

Ed:

Do you recall if the routing via Jessup continued after the SCL merger? Prior to that, the interchange between the ACL and Southern was at Tiftton, GA, nothing was done through Jax. The Tifton-not-Jacksonville scheme went back to the original Sou ACL trackage rights agreement from Hardeeville/Savannah to Jax.

The Southern wanted several thnings in the SCL merger, one was to interchange with the SCL at Jacksonville. The ICC denied that so the SR went to court. Thagt was the only condiiton they managed to get.

There are Extensive files on the SCL merger in the SRHA archives.

Ike

On Dec 14, 2019, at 8:46 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

If I recall correctly these are the cars that were routed from the Bone Valley to Waycross then put behind the caboose on a manifest freight to Savannah and cut off on the fly at Jesup,GA. The ACL/SCL Jesup switcher would then deliver them to the Southern.

Ed Mims


On Dec 13, 2019, at 6:21 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Marv:

There was a full article on these cars in TIES magazine a few years ago. Someone needs to help find which issue.

It has always been unusual for any railroad to own revenue tank cars. There were two groups of 100T capy cars blt by ACF and GATX, painted Southern freight car brown. They were in captive service between Rockland, FL and Vertagreen, near Sheffield, AL. (Rockland was east of Mulberry, FL off SR 60). I lived in Sarasota and Brandon at the time so I was able to photograph them parked beside the highway quite often.

The attached photo of Sou 323 was taken at Chattanooga 8-93 long after the Vertagreen service ended. They could not be used to ship flammable materials (like diesel fuel) so they were used to store used oil at Citico (and probably other shops).

Ike
<Sou 323-2.jpeg>


On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons



locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

Ed Mims
 

If I recall correctly these are the cars that were routed from the Bone Valley to Waycross then put behind the caboose on a manifest freight to Savannah and cut off on the fly at Jesup,GA. The ACL/SCL Jesup switcher would then deliver them to the Southern.

Ed Mims


On Dec 13, 2019, at 6:21 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Marv:

There was a full article on these cars in TIES magazine a few years ago. Someone needs to help find which issue.

It has always been unusual for any railroad to own revenue tank cars. There were two groups of 100T capy cars blt by ACF and GATX, painted Southern freight car brown. They were in captive service between Rockland, FL and Vertagreen, near Sheffield, AL. (Rockland was east of Mulberry, FL off SR 60). I lived in Sarasota and Brandon at the time so I was able to photograph them parked beside the highway quite often.

The attached photo of Sou 323 was taken at Chattanooga 8-93 long after the Vertagreen service ended. They could not be used to ship flammable materials (like diesel fuel) so they were used to store used oil at Citico (and probably other shops).

Ike
<Sou 323-2.jpeg>


On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons


locked Re: St. Louis line

Bill Schafer
 

I’ll (try to remember to) look it up when I get home next week.

On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:26 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Thanks for the correction, Bill. That's what I get for not looking it up. Do you recall when the first diesel road-switcher's were assigned?

Jack

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 10:11:26 PM EST, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


IIRC, Prince said the Ms Mikados, which were legit on the Evansville and French Lick branches, ferried to the rest of the system via West Baden-Monon-Louisville. 

—Bill Schafer

On Dec 13, 2019, at 9:09 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Ks 2-8-0 steam locomotives, light Pacific's on the passenger trains, and  EMD F-units on the through freights. I believe that one of the branches used Ms 2-8-2's which had to be brought in over the L&N because the Southern bridges on the main were not strong enough.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 01:10:54 PM EST, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm planning on modelling the L&N St. Louis Division - but not really, I can explain. As far as I know, the L&N interchanged with the Southern at Belleville and Mount Vernon in Illinois and Evansville in Indiana. Does anyone know what locomotives and traffic were common on the Southern's St. Louis line in the late 40s-early 50s?



locked Re: St. Louis line

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks for the correction, Bill. That's what I get for not looking it up. Do you recall when the first diesel road-switcher's were assigned?

Jack

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 10:11:26 PM EST, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


IIRC, Prince said the Ms Mikados, which were legit on the Evansville and French Lick branches, ferried to the rest of the system via West Baden-Monon-Louisville. 

—Bill Schafer

On Dec 13, 2019, at 9:09 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Ks 2-8-0 steam locomotives, light Pacific's on the passenger trains, and  EMD F-units on the through freights. I believe that one of the branches used Ms 2-8-2's which had to be brought in over the L&N because the Southern bridges on the main were not strong enough.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 01:10:54 PM EST, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm planning on modelling the L&N St. Louis Division - but not really, I can explain. As far as I know, the L&N interchanged with the Southern at Belleville and Mount Vernon in Illinois and Evansville in Indiana. Does anyone know what locomotives and traffic were common on the Southern's St. Louis line in the late 40s-early 50s?


locked Re: St. Louis line

Bill Schafer
 

IIRC, Prince said the Ms Mikados, which were legit on the Evansville and French Lick branches, ferried to the rest of the system via West Baden-Monon-Louisville. 

—Bill Schafer

On Dec 13, 2019, at 9:09 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Ks 2-8-0 steam locomotives, light Pacific's on the passenger trains, and  EMD F-units on the through freights. I believe that one of the branches used Ms 2-8-2's which had to be brought in over the L&N because the Southern bridges on the main were not strong enough.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 01:10:54 PM EST, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm planning on modelling the L&N St. Louis Division - but not really, I can explain. As far as I know, the L&N interchanged with the Southern at Belleville and Mount Vernon in Illinois and Evansville in Indiana. Does anyone know what locomotives and traffic were common on the Southern's St. Louis line in the late 40s-early 50s?


locked Re: St. Louis line

C J Wyatt
 

Ks 2-8-0 steam locomotives, light Pacific's on the passenger trains, and  EMD F-units on the through freights. I believe that one of the branches used Ms 2-8-2's which had to be brought in over the L&N because the Southern bridges on the main were not strong enough.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 01:10:54 PM EST, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm planning on modelling the L&N St. Louis Division - but not really, I can explain. As far as I know, the L&N interchanged with the Southern at Belleville and Mount Vernon in Illinois and Evansville in Indiana. Does anyone know what locomotives and traffic were common on the Southern's St. Louis line in the late 40s-early 50s?


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

George Eichelberger
 

The service pre-dated SCL, the tank cars were originally stenciled to return to Rockland on the ACL. Note attached photo of Sou 341 stored at the food terminal in Chattanooga, the “ACL” stencil is quite visible.

Also note the car has a full center sill, a feature of the ACF cars, the GATX cars were frameless.

The cars were rubber lined to carry phosphoric acid. The lining was a maintenance problem, particularly when men went inside the tank to clean out sludge…..using a pick and shovel….duh!

Ike



On Dec 13, 2019, at 7:50 PM, Justin May <westpointroute@...> wrote:

Here is a useful website documenting Rockland. It was an old mine from the 1920s and finally shut down in 1994. These shipments would have also been handled by SCL locally prior to 1983.



Rockland Mine was located north along State Road 630 West and east of CR555 in Ft. Meade, Florida (3225 State Road 630 West).

The mine was a property of U.S. Agri Chemical and was a Phosphoric Acid plant after playing out the phosphate deposit.

Justin May


On Dec 13, 2019, at 18:21, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Marv:

There was a full article on these cars in TIES magazine a few years ago. Someone needs to help find which issue.

It has always been unusual for any railroad to own revenue tank cars. There were two groups of 100T capy cars blt by ACF and GATX, painted Southern freight car brown. They were in captive service between Rockland, FL and Vertagreen, near Sheffield, AL. (Rockland was east of Mulberry, FL off SR 60). I lived in Sarasota and Brandon at the time so I was able to photograph them parked beside the highway quite often.

The attached photo of Sou 323 was taken at Chattanooga 8-93 long after the Vertagreen service ended. They could not be used to ship flammable materials (like diesel fuel) so they were used to store used oil at Citico (and probably other shops).

Ike
<Sou 323-2.jpeg>


On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons



locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

Justin May
 

Here is a useful website documenting Rockland. It was an old mine from the 1920s and finally shut down in 1994. These shipments would have also been handled by SCL locally prior to 1983.



Rockland Mine was located north along State Road 630 West and east of CR555 in Ft. Meade, Florida (3225 State Road 630 West).

The mine was a property of U.S. Agri Chemical and was a Phosphoric Acid plant after playing out the phosphate deposit.

Justin May


On Dec 13, 2019, at 18:21, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Marv:

There was a full article on these cars in TIES magazine a few years ago. Someone needs to help find which issue.

It has always been unusual for any railroad to own revenue tank cars. There were two groups of 100T capy cars blt by ACF and GATX, painted Southern freight car brown. They were in captive service between Rockland, FL and Vertagreen, near Sheffield, AL. (Rockland was east of Mulberry, FL off SR 60). I lived in Sarasota and Brandon at the time so I was able to photograph them parked beside the highway quite often.

The attached photo of Sou 323 was taken at Chattanooga 8-93 long after the Vertagreen service ended. They could not be used to ship flammable materials (like diesel fuel) so they were used to store used oil at Citico (and probably other shops).

Ike
<Sou 323-2.jpeg>


On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

George Eichelberger
 

Marv:

There was a full article on these cars in TIES magazine a few years ago. Someone needs to help find which issue.

It has always been unusual for any railroad to own revenue tank cars. There were two groups of 100T capy cars blt by ACF and GATX, painted Southern freight car brown. They were in captive service between Rockland, FL and Vertagreen, near Sheffield, AL. (Rockland was east of Mulberry, FL off SR 60). I lived in Sarasota and Brandon at the time so I was able to photograph them parked beside the highway quite often.

The attached photo of Sou 323 was taken at Chattanooga 8-93 long after the Vertagreen service ended. They could not be used to ship flammable materials (like diesel fuel) so they were used to store used oil at Citico (and probably other shops).

Ike


On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons


locked St. Louis line

James Walton <whovianwil@...>
 

I'm planning on modelling the L&N St. Louis Division - but not really, I can explain. As far as I know, the L&N interchanged with the Southern at Belleville and Mount Vernon in Illinois and Evansville in Indiana. Does anyone know what locomotives and traffic were common on the Southern's St. Louis line in the late 40s-early 50s?


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

C J Wyatt
 

Marv, 

The May-June 1998 issue of Ties has an article on the railroad owned tank cars used, but does not have much to say about them being pulled on the end of passenger trains:


Trains Magazine, if I recall, had an article about riding the last heavyweight Pullman line (Atlanta-Brunswick) where the tank cars on the rear are mentioned.

I have also seen a video showing the tank cars on the KC - Florida Special near Birmingham.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 10:13:17 AM EST, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:


Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

Carl Ardrey
 

Vertagreen is Cherokee,AL.  Still in operation and a large customer.
CEA


On Dec 13, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


Marv - 

I recall seeing waybills on similar cars and the origin station was Vertagreen, AL.  Obviously, this was one of those stations that was, by rulebook definition, a place identified by name on the timetable, and not a town.

What the actual billing point was, I do not recall.

Bob Hanson

-----Original Message-----
From: Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Dec 13, 2019 9:13 am
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Vertagreen tank cars

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

Robert Hanson
 

Marv - 

I recall seeing waybills on similar cars and the origin station was Vertagreen, AL.  Obviously, this was one of those stations that was, by rulebook definition, a place identified by name on the timetable, and not a town.

What the actual billing point was, I do not recall.

Bob Hanson

-----Original Message-----
From: Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Dec 13, 2019 9:13 am
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Vertagreen tank cars

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons


locked Vertagreen tank cars

Marv Clemons
 

Back in the mid-60s Southern routinely handled several tank cars of Vertagreen liquid fertilizer on the rear of Nos 7 & 8, the KC-Florida Special, between Brunswick GA and Birmingham AL.  Does anyone know the history of these cars, more specifically the points of origin and destination?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons


locked Re: Southern Railway Forum

James Walton <whovianwil@...>
 

I'm glad you agree, I hope I gain the support of at least a few of the societies.


On Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 09:44 Gino Damen <g.damen@...> wrote:
Hi,

A place were the various subsystems are gathered would be nice. But also the option to talk (or read) about the new on the same location would be nice. (With new I'm referring to the new Norflok Southern :-) )

best regards,

Gino Damen

On 9-12-2019 at 22:02, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
Hi, does anyone think a Southern Railway forum could be a good idea? I think if we could get other Southeast railroad historical societies involved such as the ACL-SAL, L&N, and NC&StL, it could really be helpful to a lot of people.


locked Re: Southern Railway Forum

Gino Damen
 

Hi,

A place were the various subsystems are gathered would be nice. But also the option to talk (or read) about the new on the same location would be nice. (With new I'm referring to the new Norflok Southern :-) )

best regards,

Gino Damen


On 9-12-2019 at 22:02, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
Hi, does anyone think a Southern Railway forum could be a good idea? I think if we could get other Southeast railroad historical societies involved such as the ACL-SAL, L&N, and NC&StL, it could really be helpful to a lot of people.


locked Southern Railway Forum

James Walton <whovianwil@...>
 

Hi, does anyone think a Southern Railway forum could be a good idea? I think if we could get other Southeast railroad historical societies involved such as the ACL-SAL, L&N, and NC&StL, it could really be helpful to a lot of people.

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