Date   

locked Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s

Alexander Smart
 




Begin forwarded message:

From: "agfsmart via Groups.Io" <agfsmart@...>
Date: 27 November 2019 at 23:48:40 GMT
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s
Reply-To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io

Hello 

I model Southern outdoors in 1/29 scale and indoors in HO, in Oban, Scotland.
I need more information, photos and possibly diagrams of the consist of these trains.
I checked Ralph Ward’s Southern Railway Pictorial which shows such a train at Asheville in July 1973: CNO&TP F7 6119, caboose X636, UTLX tank car 39918 and 2 special sprayer cars including 991495.
I have in 1/29 an F3, caboose and tank car but need to adapt and detail a couple of flatcars to the sprayer car specifics. 
This would make a very unusual and striking extra on my garden railroad!
If anyone has more information, particularly photos or diagrams of these cars, I would be very grateful.

Kind regards

Sandy Smart


locked Re: 2020 Calendar January Picture

pschmidt3013@...
 

Thanks, Tim, good to know. Still waiting for my 2020 calendar to arrive, though!
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA


locked Re: 2020 Calendar January Picture

Bill Schafer
 

Thanks for the correction, Tim.

That was the one caption I farmed out, but I probably would have made the same mistake if I had written it. 

I’ll mention the error in TIES.

Best wishes,

—Bill

On Jan 10, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Tim <tarumph@...> wrote:

The caption for the picture on the SRHA calendar for January says this is train 256. Then it talks about the Belmont coal train.

The Belmont train was 270. Train 256 was the Catawba coal train, headed to the Marshall Steam Plant in Terrell, NC via Asheville, Old Fort, and Catawba.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


locked 2020 Calendar January Picture

Tim
 

The caption for the picture on the SRHA calendar for January says this is train 256. Then it talks about the Belmont coal train.

The Belmont train was 270. Train 256 was the Catawba coal train, headed to the Marshall Steam Plant in Terrell, NC via Asheville, Old Fort, and Catawba.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


locked Strawberry Plains

Mike Pierry, Jr.
 

With the current issue of Ties, and Michael Turner’s excellent article as a prod,
we drove over to Strawberry Plains, TN and found an easy vantage point to photograph the bridge over the Holston River. Of course, having 15T appear would have been most welcome but that was not to be.  Jan. 8, 2020.
Mike Pierry, Jr.


locked Re: Medallion

Evan Miller
 

Thanks for the photos! Hard to argue against them. I had no idea that these were actually a separate metal piece! I always thought that they were just painted on.

Looking at the photo on the 6144, it appears that the background for the reflective number board is also green. I've also been looking at the backgrounds for the reflective number boards on F Units and there is a clear variety I've found. On page of Diesels of the Southern Railway 1939-1982 there is a color photo of an FT, F5 (late phase F3), and F7. The FT has a white background, the F5 has a silver background, and the F7 has a green or black background. I've even seen a photo of FT 4115 with a yellow background! From the sheer volume of photos of seen of F5's, it seems that a silver background was standard. I do wonder if Southern used both green and black background, or perhaps Southern just used green and they look black like the monograms? Anybody know anything about these?

-Evan Miller


locked reweigh abbreviations for locations on the Southern

A&Y Dave in MD
 

I would like to update/confirm the reweigh station abbreviations for the Southern I've seen documented by Richard Hendrickson based on photos in the 50's.  

Is there an authoritative  list that would work for 1934 in particular?

Here's what Hendrickson listed based on photos of freight cars in the 50s:

ALX SOU Alexandria VA
AUG SOU Augusta GA
CHAT SOU Chattanooga TN
CIN SOU Cincinnatti OH
FN SOU Finley Yard AL
HE SOU Hayne Shops SC
IN SOU Inman Yard GA
INM SOU Inman Yard GA
JS SOU Jacksonville FL
K SOU Knoxville TN
MDN SOU Meridian MS
MN SOU Macon GA
N SOU Norris Yard SC
SR SOU Spencer NC
WBY SOU


Dave Bott



--

Sent from David Bott's desktop pc


locked Re: Medallion

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Bill,

I'd be happy to write the article if I could get to the archives.  It's a challenge to head to Chattanooga for me given work schedules and a lot of trips for funerals (two aunts, one uncle and one cousin in 2019 alone, and a brother-in-law in hospice as we speak--the downside of several generations of big families).

If the documentation can be scanned and shared, I'll draft an article.   Getting the accurate data would sure beat having a "red roof" discussion!

Dave

Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 1:29:58 PM, you wrote:


Green lettering.

Unfortunately, too few well-lit photos of the monogram in the green era exist, and too many of those have been duplicated so many times that the color has shifted. When duplicated, the Southern green tends to go blacker with each succeeding generation. While one never says “never” when referring to Southern Railway, my sense is that the early diesels - like Carl’s photo of the black FTs when new - received cast metal monograms with black lettering and gold-ish background. The early green E-units had a similar monogram, but was its lettering black or green?

When SOU standardized on all diesels being painted green, circa 1948, and when those diesels received the sheet metal monogram (instead of the cast metal one), I think it was green and (imitation) gold. I know because I owned one at one time. And look at the photo of the 0-8-0 at Alexandria - I’m betting that monogram came off a diesel, it sure looks green to me (contrasted with the black of the locomotive).

This is not to say that some sheet metal monograms weren’t black and yellow, but relying on color photographs, especially if they have color shifted, can be misleading. The only way I know to describe definitively the colors of the monograms is through source information, such as drawings and correspondence. This information may be in the SRHA archives.

This would make a good topic for a TIES magazine article. Does anyone want to volunteer to write an article about the colors of Southern’s monograms using authoritative source information?

—Bill




On Jan 7, 2020, at 12:16 PM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Black lettering. <FT Set, Atla, 1946.jpg>



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Medallion

George Eichelberger
 

All of the various monogram drawings, and the specifications for the paint and lettering on the engines that used them are in the archives.

Our next work session is January 17th and 18th. If time and weather permit, we will also check out Norfolk Southern office car No 8 (Southern OC-5) that should be arriving at TVRM this Thursday. It will be trucked down from Madison, Ill on Thursday, probably not arriving in Chattanooga until after dark. Assuming the route will be from Madison (E. St Louis) down the Interstate to Paducah then east to Chattanooga, maybe someone will be able to shoot a video or photo.

Ike


On Jan 7, 2020, at 1:29 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Green lettering. 

Unfortunately, too few well-lit photos of the monogram in the green era exist, and too many of those have been duplicated so many times that the color has shifted. When duplicated, the Southern green tends to go blacker with each succeeding generation. While one never says “never” when referring to Southern Railway, my sense is that the early diesels - like Carl’s photo of the black FTs when new - received cast metal monograms with black lettering and gold-ish background. The early green E-units had a similar monogram, but was its lettering black or green?

When SOU standardized on all diesels being painted green, circa 1948, and when those diesels received the sheet metal monogram (instead of the cast metal one), I think it was green and (imitation) gold. I know because I owned one at one time. And look at the photo of the 0-8-0 at Alexandria - I’m betting that monogram came off a diesel, it sure looks green to me (contrasted with the black of the locomotive).

This is not to say that some sheet metal monograms weren’t black and yellow, but relying on color photographs, especially if they have color shifted, can be misleading. The only way I know to describe definitively the colors of the monograms is through source information, such as drawings and correspondence. This information may be in the SRHA archives. 

This would make a good topic for a TIES magazine article. Does anyone want to volunteer to write an article about the colors of Southern’s monograms using authoritative source information?

—Bill

<Sou 2900 Lenox Rd Atlanta 1957-ish.jpeg><SOU E7 2910 arlington va ca 1953.jpg><SOU-1846-01 Alexandria early 1950s.jpeg><SOU-4144 Charlottesville-VA June 1953.jpeg>

On Jan 7, 2020, at 12:16 PM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Black lettering. <FT Set, Atla, 1946.jpg>



locked Re: Medallion

Bill Schafer
 

Green lettering. 

Unfortunately, too few well-lit photos of the monogram in the green era exist, and too many of those have been duplicated so many times that the color has shifted. When duplicated, the Southern green tends to go blacker with each succeeding generation. While one never says “never” when referring to Southern Railway, my sense is that the early diesels - like Carl’s photo of the black FTs when new - received cast metal monograms with black lettering and gold-ish background. The early green E-units had a similar monogram, but was its lettering black or green?

When SOU standardized on all diesels being painted green, circa 1948, and when those diesels received the sheet metal monogram (instead of the cast metal one), I think it was green and (imitation) gold. I know because I owned one at one time. And look at the photo of the 0-8-0 at Alexandria - I’m betting that monogram came off a diesel, it sure looks green to me (contrasted with the black of the locomotive).

This is not to say that some sheet metal monograms weren’t black and yellow, but relying on color photographs, especially if they have color shifted, can be misleading. The only way I know to describe definitively the colors of the monograms is through source information, such as drawings and correspondence. This information may be in the SRHA archives. 

This would make a good topic for a TIES magazine article. Does anyone want to volunteer to write an article about the colors of Southern’s monograms using authoritative source information?

—Bill



On Jan 7, 2020, at 12:16 PM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Black lettering. <FT Set, Atla, 1946.jpg>


locked Medallion

Carl Ardrey
 

Black lettering.


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

Robert Hanson
 

I've seen color slides that showed black lettering on the medallion.

I may have one or two but I'd have to dig them up.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...>
To: main <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2020 10:48 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

Were the 50’s era F units in early Black or green paint with that medallion?  I don’t think the early black scheme survived that long into the 50’s but there were at least two paint schemes on F’s in ‘the 50’s’.

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:36 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


Dave:

The sheet metal monogram used on F-units in, say, the 1950s, was green and (imitation) gold. I owned one, and donated it to TVRM. 

—Bill

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Ike, 

Never insisted or even suggested that anyone who is knowledgeable about the Southern should use any other term but medallion.

I’ll let someone else answer about the point of my post.  Some Southern box cars had a medallion in aluminum paint.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 10:15 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

I’m not sure what your point is but this group is about the Southern Railway….the Southern did not use the term “Herald”, why should we use/propagate it?

Ike


On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Were the 50’s era F units in early Black or green paint with that medallion?  I don’t think the early black scheme survived that long into the 50’s but there were at least two paint schemes on F’s in ‘the 50’s’.

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:36 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Dave:

The sheet metal monogram used on F-units in, say, the 1950s, was green and (imitation) gold. I owned one, and donated it to TVRM. 

—Bill

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Good Example of a MONOGRAM

Ed Mims
 

Medallion, Monogram, Herald, Logo, Trade Mark, just the more common names used by different companies to portray their name. All have the same meaning (to some extent) in my mind. It seems to be a choice made by the company displaying this type of graphic.

 

Ed Mims


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

I’m not sure what your point is but this group is about the Southern Railway….the Southern did not use the term “Herald”, why should we use/propagate it?

Ike


On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: For the "naturalized" Floridian

George Eichelberger
 

I’ve had a similar conversation with the NS Engineering folks and the ACL/SALHS about what resolutions to use to scan microfilm aperture cards. Both groups told me they thought scanning at 300 dpi was sufficient, NS Engineering told me they used that resolution to save (!) memory. (Older scanners that can handle “decks” of aperture cards typically can only scan at 300 dpi.)

For the SRHA archives scans, including several hundred done from the ACL, SAL, CRR, etc. cards, we typically use 4,800 or even 9,600 DPI for microfilm. Lower resolution scans make dimensions and small details hard to see and may be too low quality for publication.

Also, other than reference scans of file documents using jpeg, we normally save scans as tiff files with no compression.

Sorry to go “technical” but evolving to digital archives needs to consider multiple factors.

Ike



On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:19 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

George,
 
I have saved these for many years, probably from 1967 when John Hawthorn caused us to do a lot of house cleaning to get rid of the pre-merger drawings such as these. The use of the name “monogram” in the title of these is what I gave it and not necessarily that used by the ACL. The one with the purple background was scanned from a “purple folder” as the public timetables were referred to. I think this was the first use of purple on the ACL and dates back to the 1920s..
 
As you might already know most, if not all, of the ACL/SAL aperture cards have been scanned. The scans are not of the best quality. At least not the ones I have seen.
 
Ed
<ACL Logo from  Passenger Time Tables  (1).tif><ACL Monogram and Lettering   001.jpg><ACL Monogram and Lettering   002.jpg><ACL Monogram and Lettering   003.jpg><ACL Monogram and Lettering   004.jpg>


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

Bill Schafer
 

Dave:

The sheet metal monogram used on F-units in, say, the 1950s, was green and (imitation) gold. I owned one, and donated it to TVRM. 

—Bill

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

A&Y Dave in MD
 

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit MONOGRAMS

George Eichelberger
 

Thanks Ed!

As a “naturalized” Floridian, I have to admit the ACL medallion lettering style is the absolute classic! Ed’s drawing, like Southern DL-1010 appears to be a tracing of an EMD original. In the case of DL-1010, the EMD drawing numbers are in the left margin. In EMD’s case, “medallion” refers to the painted metal plate attached to the front of locos. (During WWII, the medallion/monogram was painted directly on the SR FT carbody. Research would tell us what EMD and the SR called it in those cases?)

And, as info…the ACL/SALHS Coast Line, SAL and “Family Lines” microfilm drawing aperture cards are at the SRHA archives at TVRM.

The room for the employees model railroad club layout at LaGrange, IL had EMD medallions from many railroads on the walls. (I wonder what happened to them?)

A small version of DL-1010 is attached. It is one of 3,830 scans of diesel drawings in the SRHA archives (with more to be done.)

Ike

PS For whatever reason, the Southern used the steam locomotive drawing prefix, “SL” for a few years into the diesel era.



On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:44 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Here is a good example of a “MEDALLION”.
 
Ed Mims
 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Hanson via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 7:25 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds
 
And EMD called it a "Medallion." 
 

Bob Hanson

-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike 

<ACL C-1010 Locomotive Medallion WJN.tif>

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