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Re: Southern Passenger Trains on the NE Corridor in 1968
My recent experience on the Palmetto and the Carolinian on the NE corridor was that there were several cars on the head end on the southbound trains for local traffic, with through passenger being seated behind these cars. The "short" cars were pulled off with the engine in Washington.
Tim Rumph Lancaster, SC
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Lcal passenger trains on the Southern 7-8-1941
George Eichelberger
From the SRHA archives.....probably not seen since 1941....
Two addl items.... The next SRHA work session will be Friday and Saturday, Feb 14 & 15. There are several projects underway and some new ones we can begin if we have help. Norfolk Southern official car 8 arrived in Chattanooga, was set on trucks and moved to Soule Shop at E. Chattanooga. The car is is remarkably good condition, TVRM may be able to have it in service late this year. As always, donors and volunteers are needed to complete the work. We'll stop by the car on one of our lunch breaks. Ike
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Re: Southern Passenger Trains on the NE Corridor in 1968
Michael Young
Your pass not being accepted on the Silver Meteor might have been due to the fact that all "premier" long-distance trains were not permitted to handle local travel within the NEC. IIRC, this included the Crescent and Southerner, as well as all the Florida trains. And Amtrak continues the practice, at least up to my retirement in 1996. If you check the timetables, you will find a reference mark designating NEC stations (New York-Washington) as "Receive Only" on southbound trips, and "Discharge Only" on the northbounds. This obviously was done to prevent short haul traffic within the NEC from tying up long haul space. There were a few exceptions, some "lesser" trains (such as the Palmetto in the Amtrak era) were allowed to handle local traffic. You could get around the rule southbound by buying a ticket to Alexandria, or, in the case of a pass rider, you might convince a conductor to let you ride without a ticket, but ticket agents could not reserve space or issue tickets via the restricted trains for travel within the Corridor.
Michael Young M
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Bechdol <garyeb1947@...> To: main <main@southernrailway.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Feb 3, 2020 8:16 am Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Trains on the NE Corridor in 1968 Of course, policy and practice often varied greatly.
I started with Penn Central in July, 1970, fresh out of Georgia Tech. That Fall, I decided to travel back to Atlanta for the Thanksgiving holiday and watch the Tech-Georgia game with friends. At that time,Southern was offering half rate tickets to holders of foreign railroad passes, so I planned to ride the Crescent from Washington to Atlanta and return. I could catch the Crescent in Philadelphia, but I might not have enough time in Washington to run to the ticket counter and purchase a half fare ticket before the Crescent departed, so I decided to take the train leaving Philadelphia ahead of the Crescent. which happened to be the Silver Meteor. The kicker was that the Silver Meteor was the only train on the Northeast Corridor besides the Metroliners on which my pass was not accepted. But I went down to the platform anyway, and explained my situation to the motorman on the GG1 on the head of the Meteor. He was agreeable, but I would have to stand in the narrow access passage behind him for the entire trip. I wedged myself in and we were off. The weather was wet and gloomy, so photos were pretty much out of the question. Plus, the sand pipes were clogged. The wheel slip lights stayed on almost continuously until the stop in Baltimore, at which point the fireman got down and banged on the sand pipes to open them up. Apparently, it worked. We left Baltimore 8 minutes late, and had a 35 mph speed restriction through the B&P tunnel south of the station. Once clear of the tunnel, the motorman started notching back on the controller. I watched the needle on the speedometer climb past the authorized maximum speed of 80 mph, then hit 100 mph and keep on going. The speedometer on a G only goes up to 100, and we were well past that. I best guess is that we were maintaining a speed of 110 mph, bases on the divisions on the speedometer. The motorman apologized a couple of times for slowing to 90 mph through some interlockings. It is 40.5 miles by timetable from Baltimore to Washington Union Station. We did it in 32 minutes start to stop.
As an aside, I regularly rode the Bucks County Express (First stop, Cornwells Heights) out of Suburban Station while I was with PC. The St.Louis-built Silverliners had speedometers. On many a trip home we would run at 90 mph once we cleared the reverse curves at Frankford Junction.
Gary Bechdol
On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 3:02 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
The attached memo is from a period when the Southern was attempting to cut off passenger trains and altering remaining schedules to adjust arrival and departure and connecting train times. The Penn Central speed restrictions on conventional passenger trains were supposedly not due to poor track conditions (on PC in 1968?) but due to equipment failures with conventional power and passenger equipment. As the Southern trains on the NEC were combined with PC schedules north of Washington, and virtually everything was pulled by aging GG-1s, there likely were equipment reliability issues.
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Re: Southern Passenger Trains on the NE Corridor in 1968
Gary Bechdol
Of course, policy and practice often varied greatly. I started with Penn Central in July, 1970, fresh out of Georgia Tech. That Fall, I decided to travel back to Atlanta for the Thanksgiving holiday and watch the Tech-Georgia game with friends. At that time,Southern was offering half rate tickets to holders of foreign railroad passes, so I planned to ride the Crescent from Washington to Atlanta and return. I could catch the Crescent in Philadelphia, but I might not have enough time in Washington to run to the ticket counter and purchase a half fare ticket before the Crescent departed, so I decided to take the train leaving Philadelphia ahead of the Crescent. which happened to be the Silver Meteor. The kicker was that the Silver Meteor was the only train on the Northeast Corridor besides the Metroliners on which my pass was not accepted. But I went down to the platform anyway, and explained my situation to the motorman on the GG1 on the head of the Meteor. He was agreeable, but I would have to stand in the narrow access passage behind him for the entire trip. I wedged myself in and we were off. The weather was wet and gloomy, so photos were pretty much out of the question. Plus, the sand pipes were clogged. The wheel slip lights stayed on almost continuously until the stop in Baltimore, at which point the fireman got down and banged on the sand pipes to open them up. Apparently, it worked. We left Baltimore 8 minutes late, and had a 35 mph speed restriction through the B&P tunnel south of the station. Once clear of the tunnel, the motorman started notching back on the controller. I watched the needle on the speedometer climb past the authorized maximum speed of 80 mph, then hit 100 mph and keep on going. The speedometer on a G only goes up to 100, and we were well past that. I best guess is that we were maintaining a speed of 110 mph, bases on the divisions on the speedometer. The motorman apologized a couple of times for slowing to 90 mph through some interlockings. It is 40.5 miles by timetable from Baltimore to Washington Union Station. We did it in 32 minutes start to stop. As an aside, I regularly rode the Bucks County Express (First stop, Cornwells Heights) out of Suburban Station while I was with PC. The St.Louis-built Silverliners had speedometers. On many a trip home we would run at 90 mph once we cleared the reverse curves at Frankford Junction. Gary Bechdol
On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 3:02 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote: The attached memo is from a period when the Southern was attempting to cut off passenger trains and altering remaining schedules to adjust arrival and departure and connecting train times. The Penn Central speed restrictions on conventional passenger trains were supposedly not due to poor track conditions (on PC in 1968?) but due to equipment failures with conventional power and passenger equipment. As the Southern trains on the NEC were combined with PC schedules north of Washington, and virtually everything was pulled by aging GG-1s, there likely were equipment reliability issues.
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Southern Passenger Trains on the NE Corridor in 1968
George Eichelberger
The attached memo is from a period when the Southern was attempting to cut off passenger trains and altering remaining schedules to adjust arrival and departure and connecting train times. The Penn Central speed restrictions on conventional passenger trains were supposedly not due to poor track conditions (on PC in 1968?) but due to equipment failures with conventional power and passenger equipment. As the Southern trains on the NEC were combined with PC schedules north of Washington, and virtually everything was pulled by aging GG-1s, there likely were equipment reliability issues.
....but having "conventional" trains approaching Metroliner schedules would not have been something PC would have wanted. Ike
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Re: Mail on passenger trains....
Carl Ardrey
And here is Charleston Division brief file on discontinuance of RPO's on trains 35, 36, 135, and 136 in 1949.
CEA
On January 31, 2020 at 9:47 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
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Mail on passenger trains....
George Eichelberger
The Southern Railway Presidents' files in the SRHA archives include many pieces of correspondence, PUC filings, responses and ICC Dockets on discontinuing passenger trains
While everyone is probably familiar, to some degree, about why passenger trains were cut off due to lack of passengers, revenues and expenses, the SRHA Presidents' files discuss three other topics that had large roles in the process. The impact on US Mail and Railway Express services on the trains or routes being dropped and how contracts and revenues from those services affected train-off data and arguments are heavily documented. Although each case was somewhat different a recurring theme was that the Southern wanted OUT of the passenger business (particularly under DW Brosnan's administration but continued under Graham Claytor) but wanted to maintain mail and express revenues. One concept was to combine REA shipments with the railroad's "package" (LCL) services in local freight trains. (A TIES article on Southern's package services is being prepared, anyone with information on the subject is invited to help.) That idea fell apart with the demise of the Railway Express Agency and the loss of LCL business. (REA is also well documented in the archives, mostly at the overall business level rather than detailed operations.) Southern's alternative, to operate trucks parallel to passenger train routes could generate more paper than killing passenger services because trucking companies saw that as "the camel's nose in the tent" insofar as railroads getting into the trucking business. The Post Office would agree to operate “Star” routes and REA would attempt to schedule truck routes along the same route. (An example of correspondence about mail on SR passenger trains is attached.) US Mail coming off passenger trains may have had a larger role in the development "Piggy-Back" (PB) and containerized services than we realize. Moving mail out of labor intensive RPO and storage mail cars and into containers (sometimes on the same passenger trains) is discussed in several train off files. Once the concept of moving mail in containers took hold, the focus changed to improving how the containers were moved, including the idea of solid PB trains and interchange between railroads to better meet PO demands. Mail via PB became a strategy for the Southern to use to eliminate passenger routes and quickly became a prime concept in the development of piggy back services. All of these topics are well represented in the archives files and could become important TIES (or commercial magazine) articles. The February archives work session will be Friday and Sat the 14th and 15. If anyone is interested in researching passenger train-offs, REA, RPO and mail services or piggyback services on the Southern, join us at the archives!
Ike
PS Weather permitting, we can visit newly arrived NS business car No 8 at East Chattanooga, probably on Saturday.
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Robert Hanson
Good point, Bill.
The SAL Pullmans of the period were two-tone gray.
Bob Hanson
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Sent: Wed, Jan 29, 2020 3:41 pm Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Poplar series sleepers Pullman green, maybe, but two-tone gray more likely. Most pictures I have seen of pool cars on SOU in the 1950s are gray.
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Bill Schafer
Pullman green, maybe, but two-tone gray more likely. Most pictures I have seen of pool cars on SOU in the 1950s are gray.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Bill Schafer
To help you narrow down exactly when the 6 sec-6 DBR cars operated on 33-34, this is what the passenger timetables indicate:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Feb. 15, 1953 timetable South - car SR12 North - car L42 New York-New Orleans 10 sec-DR-2 Cpt car May 17 1953 timetable (the next one issued) Same car numbers New York-New Orleans 6 sec-6 DBR car Nov 20 1955 timetable South - car SR11 North - car L42 New York-New Orleans 6 sec-6 DBR car Aug 10 1958 Same car numbers New York-New Orleans 6 sec-6 DBR car Last timetable to show 6-6 sleeper Nov 10 1958 Same car numbers 10 roomette-6 DBR car New York-New Orleans First timetable to show lightweight car with these car numbers SOU also operated a 6-6 briefly on the Ponce de Leon between Cincinnati and Atlanta in 1960-61. See p. 8, 2015-3 TIES Magazine, which features Southern’s 8 section-5 double bedroom cars but also mentions the operation of 6-6s on the Ponce. This issue of TIES traces the 8-5s throughout SOU’s operation of them - where they operated, what trains they operated on, pictures of them in service, etc. As Fenton mentioned, SOU owned no 6-6s, but probably depended on Pullman pool cars. PRR cars would be a likely guess, but other eastern railroads that leased 6-6s to Pullman were NYC, SAL, and ACL. I didn’t check all the timetables, but the July 1955 timetable lists 6-6s only on the Piedmont Limited. Since SOU didn’t own any, their appearance on SOU trains was rather rare. —Bill
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Mike Burns
Aidrian,
Thank you very much for taking time to provide
me with this helpful information. I am working on
an HO scale Piedmont consist which will include
a Poplar series car. With this info, my project should
be pretty close to prototype.
Mike
In a message dated 1/29/2020 10:08:24 AM Central Standard Time, abridgemansutton@... writes:
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
Sorry I spoke too soon - the h/w cars are also covered online - see http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/nby_pullman/id/3072/rec/51 Aidrian
On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:49 AM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via Groups.Io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
Tom Madden's excel (and excellent) data base at pullmanproject.com gives the paint diagram numbers and paint dates for all these cars - all seem to be in some form of PRR paint to some version of MDD4973 "Painting, striping and lettering for conventional and streamlined conventional cars assigned to the PRR" This drawing had a few versions for which I don't have any references,- in all cases the base colour would be Tuscan Red, but you would need to find a copy the drawings to see the details. Many of these are held in the Newberry library At the moment only the drawing for lightweight cars in online, but you should be able to order a copy for the heavyweight cars Aidrian
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Robert Hanson
Not necessarily.
The Pullman Company's Descriptive List of Cars for March of 1961 shows 28 of these cars in Pullman ownership and in the Pullman pool.
Also, any cars that are not needed can be released to the Pullman pool and used on any road as the need arises.
Case in point - the sleeper on the last westbound run of a Pullman car on the Georgia Railroad in 1964 was Bailey's Beach, a New Haven sleeper that had been released by the NH for service in the Pullman pool.
If I had to bet, I'd wager that the Poplar series cars on 33 and 34 were as likely to be painted Pullman green as any other color - maybe more likely.
My two cents' worth.
Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Burns via Groups.Io <randmburns@...> To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Sent: Tue, Jan 28, 2020 3:04 pm Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Poplar series sleepers Many thanks for the help. So it’s probably safe to say that the Poplar series cars running
on the Piedmont Limited were in the Pensy Tuscan red scheme, right?
Mike
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 12:11 PM To: main@southernrailway.groups.io Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Poplar series sleepers Mike
No Southern owned cars in the Poplar series but PRR had these cars and leased them back to Pullman
Poplar Glen
Poplar Hill Poplar Knoll Poplar Pike Poplar Point Poplar View Poplar Arbor Poplar Country Poplar Gorge Poplar Isle Poplar Range Poplar Realm Poplar Vale Poplar Vale was wrecked in 1951, but the rest soldiered on into the early 1960s SAL and ACL had some too, as did some roads further west, but I am inclined to think the PRR cars most likely.
Aidrian
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:03 PM Mike Burns via Groups.Io <randmburns=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Mike Burns
Many thanks for the help. So it’s probably safe to say that the Poplar series cars running on the Piedmont Limited were in the Pensy Tuscan red scheme, right? Mike
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 12:11 PM To: main@southernrailway.groups.io Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Poplar series sleepers
Mike
No Southern owned cars in the Poplar series but PRR had these cars and leased them back to Pullman
Poplar Glen
Poplar Vale was wrecked in 1951, but the rest soldiered on into the early 1960s SAL and ACL had some too, as did some roads further west, but I am inclined to think the PRR cars most likely.
Aidrian
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:03 PM Mike Burns via Groups.Io <randmburns=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
Mike No Southern owned cars in the Poplar series but PRR had these cars and leased them back to Pullman Poplar Glen Poplar Hill Poplar Knoll Poplar Pike Poplar Point Poplar View Poplar Arbor Poplar Country Poplar Gorge Poplar Isle Poplar Range Poplar Realm Poplar Vale Poplar Vale was wrecked in 1951, but the rest soldiered on into the early 1960s SAL and ACL had some too, as did some roads further west, but I am inclined to think the PRR cars most likely. Aidrian
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 3:03 PM Mike Burns via Groups.Io <randmburns=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
Oops, make that the Nov 1951 ORER
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
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Re: Poplar series sleepers
These were probably Pullman pool cars or cars from connecting railroads as SR had no "Poplar" series cars, at least in the 1953 ORER. fenton
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 10:03 AM Mike Burns via Groups.Io <randmburns=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Poplar series sleepers
Mike Burns
It looks like the Piedmont Limited carried heavyweight 6 sec. 6 dbr. sleepers in the mid to late 1950's. I believe that this floor plan was named in the Poplar series. Does anyone know the names of some of the cars or if they were painted in the Southern Railway or Pullman company scheme? Thanks, Mike Burns
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Re: Mike Roderick please contact me
George:
I did once I realized it.
Mike
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 09:20 To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Mike Roderick please contact me Rather than post these messages to the group, please use person to person emails.
Ike
On Jan 28, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:
Jim:
I am sorry I have not been able to reply until today I was in the hospital till last night. That means I have to have to cancel my order of hopper also due funds not being available now.
Mike
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
on behalf of Jim King <jimking3@...>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 19:33 To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Subject: [SouthernRailway] Mike Roderick please contact me Mike … pls call me at 828-777-5619 re: chip hopper kits. Your Hotmail email doesn’t seem to be working after multiple attempts.
Jim King
-- Jim King http://smokymountainmodelworks.com
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