Date   

locked Re: Info on last runs of Tr 17 & 18 found

George Eichelberger
 

Because the Southern wanted to take trains17 and 18 off, and attempted to increase patronage, over several years, there are a number of items in the SRHA archives on the topic. Most are scanned but now the scans need to be given searchable file names and an article for TIES put together.

I’ve attached one example..(from SRHA Archives Box 531D, File 26)

Ike





On Apr 1, 2020, at 4:15 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

Recent discussions with Jerry Ledford, Bill Schafer and Frank Scheer (USPS expert) regarding last run of trains 17 and 18 on the Murphy culminated in what I found yesterday while digging thru online newspapers from 1947-48.  In the Waynesville Mountaineer (see attachment), a weekly pub, was an article dated 7-13-48 stating that the last run “from Asheville” would be 7-14 and “last train from Murphy” train would be 7-15.  Mail and express would then be handled in a “special car” sent out on the morning freight train.  This was temporary until the USPS could establish a highway postal service that replaced rail.  From photos taken by Wayne Brumbaugh (available from Bob’s Photo), we have proof that, on at least 1 occasion following the 1948 cessation of passenger trains, a double-headed 2-8-0 set with a single RPO/baggage and caboose (no freight train) was run.  We have no documentation associated with the photo but various pieces of the “Murphy Puzzle” indicate this is what is happening in the 2 photos.  Further, Frank Scheer states that, while the trains ended, the mail contract would continue until a suitable highway alternative was reached, which explains why the RPO/baggage was in use after 7-15-48.  The newspaper article also indicates that rail service would continue for mail/express.  Frank stated that the rest of the RPO/baggage was likely empty … only the mail/express section would have been manned.
 
I’ve read somewhere that there were 2 passenger trains operating on the line at the same time (17 and 18) and that they met (typically) around Addie or Willitts, maybe Bryson if the WB was running late.  There’s a photo of the WB #17 in the Willitts siding waiting on another train, “assumed” to be an EB freight, in Mike George’s book.  Timetable dated 5-30-48 shows #17 arriving in Asheville at 10:30 AM and Tr 18 leaving AVL at the same time which is physically impossible if the same equipment was used.  17 started at Murphy after 6:15 AM and 18 arrived Murphy 3:30.  The top of the column says “daily”, meaning these trains ran 7 days a week, yet the newspaper article indicates this may have been the same train and simply was “a turn” operating tri-weekly (6 days a week, not on Sunday) because it took 2 days per round trip.
 
Does anyone have info to confirm/expand or refute any of this?
 
Can someone scan the entire T/T #7 dated 5-30-48 and post here or send to me as a pdf?  I need to study the footnotes associated with Tr’s 17/18 on the schedule but I only have those 2 pages.
 
Jim King
 

-- 
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com<Waynesville Mountaineer 7-13-48 SOU ends psgr service on Murphy 7-15-48 page 1.pdf>


locked Re: Info on last runs of Tr 17 & 18 found

O Fenton Wells
 

Good info Jim, thanks for sharing 
Fenton 


On Apr 1, 2020, at 4:15 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:



Recent discussions with Jerry Ledford, Bill Schafer and Frank Scheer (USPS expert) regarding last run of trains 17 and 18 on the Murphy culminated in what I found yesterday while digging thru online newspapers from 1947-48.  In the Waynesville Mountaineer (see attachment), a weekly pub, was an article dated 7-13-48 stating that the last run “from Asheville” would be 7-14 and “last train from Murphy” train would be 7-15.  Mail and express would then be handled in a “special car” sent out on the morning freight train.  This was temporary until the USPS could establish a highway postal service that replaced rail.  From photos taken by Wayne Brumbaugh (available from Bob’s Photo), we have proof that, on at least 1 occasion following the 1948 cessation of passenger trains, a double-headed 2-8-0 set with a single RPO/baggage and caboose (no freight train) was run.  We have no documentation associated with the photo but various pieces of the “Murphy Puzzle” indicate this is what is happening in the 2 photos.  Further, Frank Scheer states that, while the trains ended, the mail contract would continue until a suitable highway alternative was reached, which explains why the RPO/baggage was in use after 7-15-48.  The newspaper article also indicates that rail service would continue for mail/express.  Frank stated that the rest of the RPO/baggage was likely empty … only the mail/express section would have been manned.

 

I’ve read somewhere that there were 2 passenger trains operating on the line at the same time (17 and 18) and that they met (typically) around Addie or Willitts, maybe Bryson if the WB was running late.  There’s a photo of the WB #17 in the Willitts siding waiting on another train, “assumed” to be an EB freight, in Mike George’s book.  Timetable dated 5-30-48 shows #17 arriving in Asheville at 10:30 AM and Tr 18 leaving AVL at the same time which is physically impossible if the same equipment was used.  17 started at Murphy after 6:15 AM and 18 arrived Murphy 3:30.  The top of the column says “daily”, meaning these trains ran 7 days a week, yet the newspaper article indicates this may have been the same train and simply was “a turn” operating tri-weekly (6 days a week, not on Sunday) because it took 2 days per round trip.

 

Does anyone have info to confirm/expand or refute any of this?

 

Can someone scan the entire T/T #7 dated 5-30-48 and post here or send to me as a pdf?  I need to study the footnotes associated with Tr’s 17/18 on the schedule but I only have those 2 pages.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


--
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com
<Waynesville Mountaineer 7-13-48 SOU ends psgr service on Murphy 7-15-48 page 1.pdf>


locked Re: Info on last runs of Tr 17 & 18 found

Matt Bumgarner
 

I'll scan it for you later tonight or tomorrow morning.

Matt

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 4:15 PM Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

Recent discussions with Jerry Ledford, Bill Schafer and Frank Scheer (USPS expert) regarding last run of trains 17 and 18 on the Murphy culminated in what I found yesterday while digging thru online newspapers from 1947-48.  In the Waynesville Mountaineer (see attachment), a weekly pub, was an article dated 7-13-48 stating that the last run “from Asheville” would be 7-14 and “last train from Murphy” train would be 7-15.  Mail and express would then be handled in a “special car” sent out on the morning freight train.  This was temporary until the USPS could establish a highway postal service that replaced rail.  From photos taken by Wayne Brumbaugh (available from Bob’s Photo), we have proof that, on at least 1 occasion following the 1948 cessation of passenger trains, a double-headed 2-8-0 set with a single RPO/baggage and caboose (no freight train) was run.  We have no documentation associated with the photo but various pieces of the “Murphy Puzzle” indicate this is what is happening in the 2 photos.  Further, Frank Scheer states that, while the trains ended, the mail contract would continue until a suitable highway alternative was reached, which explains why the RPO/baggage was in use after 7-15-48.  The newspaper article also indicates that rail service would continue for mail/express.  Frank stated that the rest of the RPO/baggage was likely empty … only the mail/express section would have been manned.

 

I’ve read somewhere that there were 2 passenger trains operating on the line at the same time (17 and 18) and that they met (typically) around Addie or Willitts, maybe Bryson if the WB was running late.  There’s a photo of the WB #17 in the Willitts siding waiting on another train, “assumed” to be an EB freight, in Mike George’s book.  Timetable dated 5-30-48 shows #17 arriving in Asheville at 10:30 AM and Tr 18 leaving AVL at the same time which is physically impossible if the same equipment was used.  17 started at Murphy after 6:15 AM and 18 arrived Murphy 3:30.  The top of the column says “daily”, meaning these trains ran 7 days a week, yet the newspaper article indicates this may have been the same train and simply was “a turn” operating tri-weekly (6 days a week, not on Sunday) because it took 2 days per round trip.

 

Does anyone have info to confirm/expand or refute any of this?

 

Can someone scan the entire T/T #7 dated 5-30-48 and post here or send to me as a pdf?  I need to study the footnotes associated with Tr’s 17/18 on the schedule but I only have those 2 pages.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


--
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com


locked Info on last runs of Tr 17 & 18 found

Jim King
 

Recent discussions with Jerry Ledford, Bill Schafer and Frank Scheer (USPS expert) regarding last run of trains 17 and 18 on the Murphy culminated in what I found yesterday while digging thru online newspapers from 1947-48.  In the Waynesville Mountaineer (see attachment), a weekly pub, was an article dated 7-13-48 stating that the last run “from Asheville” would be 7-14 and “last train from Murphy” train would be 7-15.  Mail and express would then be handled in a “special car” sent out on the morning freight train.  This was temporary until the USPS could establish a highway postal service that replaced rail.  From photos taken by Wayne Brumbaugh (available from Bob’s Photo), we have proof that, on at least 1 occasion following the 1948 cessation of passenger trains, a double-headed 2-8-0 set with a single RPO/baggage and caboose (no freight train) was run.  We have no documentation associated with the photo but various pieces of the “Murphy Puzzle” indicate this is what is happening in the 2 photos.  Further, Frank Scheer states that, while the trains ended, the mail contract would continue until a suitable highway alternative was reached, which explains why the RPO/baggage was in use after 7-15-48.  The newspaper article also indicates that rail service would continue for mail/express.  Frank stated that the rest of the RPO/baggage was likely empty … only the mail/express section would have been manned.

 

I’ve read somewhere that there were 2 passenger trains operating on the line at the same time (17 and 18) and that they met (typically) around Addie or Willitts, maybe Bryson if the WB was running late.  There’s a photo of the WB #17 in the Willitts siding waiting on another train, “assumed” to be an EB freight, in Mike George’s book.  Timetable dated 5-30-48 shows #17 arriving in Asheville at 10:30 AM and Tr 18 leaving AVL at the same time which is physically impossible if the same equipment was used.  17 started at Murphy after 6:15 AM and 18 arrived Murphy 3:30.  The top of the column says “daily”, meaning these trains ran 7 days a week, yet the newspaper article indicates this may have been the same train and simply was “a turn” operating tri-weekly (6 days a week, not on Sunday) because it took 2 days per round trip.

 

Does anyone have info to confirm/expand or refute any of this?

 

Can someone scan the entire T/T #7 dated 5-30-48 and post here or send to me as a pdf?  I need to study the footnotes associated with Tr’s 17/18 on the schedule but I only have those 2 pages.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


--
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com


locked Re: SRHA Among Ourselves

Bill Schafer
 

Um, the phrase is “Keep the Green Light shining.”  Just sayin’. 


Another iPhone-generated message

On Mar 19, 2020, at 18:08, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

All:
One of the benefits of membership to the Southern Railway Historical Association is "Among Ourselves" which comes in each issue of TIES.  I'm attaching the current issue of AO so you can all see what we are about.  TIES is great and our current membership is touching 700. Keep the Green Light Burning.
CEA
<2020-1 Among Ourselves.pdf>


locked SRHA Among Ourselves

Carl Ardrey
 

All:
One of the benefits of membership to the Southern Railway Historical Association is "Among Ourselves" which comes in each issue of TIES.  I'm attaching the current issue of AO so you can all see what we are about.  TIES is great and our current membership is touching 700. Keep the Green Light Burning.
CEA


locked Re: Charleston Union Station

Marv Clemons
 

Would a similar file possibly exist on Birmingham Terminal Station?  I know there are scattered documents in the President's and engineering files, but it would be wonderful if a single file had been kept.

Marv Clemons


locked Re: Charleston Union Station

George Eichelberger
 

I forget this was in the SRHA digital files!

Ike



On Mar 15, 2020, at 4:30 PM, SouRwyFan via Groups.Io <blackaerocoupe@...> wrote:

Wow, interesting reading!
It opens lots of questions in my mind.
What cars were used as the coach station, each time?
Did they go back into service afterwards?
How long did the new Southern station last? 
Is it still standing or did it past into history like the Union station?
Kind of peaks your interest on the subject quickly.

Thanks for sharing Ike


locked Re: Charleston Union Station

George Eichelberger
 

I expect the coaches were 1400 series cars the Southern never planned to rebuild. The answer may be in the “passenger” equipment spreadsheet populated with info from the ICC records. A passenger car, ICC account 54, would have been changed to account 16 “Station and Office Buildings” about the time they were placed at Line St.

The drawing of the “depot” in the file you downloaded was from “Ripleys Believe it or Not”. The fluting on the drawing was never on any Southern hwt coach.

As you may have seen, for the locals rebuilding a Union Station may have been more about getting tracks off of the peninsula than building a new depot. The Southern, with only one passenger train at the time, did not care to spend the money and the Coast Line wanted to use only their N. Charleston station to avoid the backup move to the Union Station site.

Ike


On Mar 15, 2020, at 4:30 PM, SouRwyFan via Groups.Io <blackaerocoupe@...> wrote:

Wow, interesting reading!
It opens lots of questions in my mind.
What cars were used as the coach station, each time?
Did they go back into service afterwards?
How long did the new Southern station last? 
Is it still standing or did it past into history like the Union station?
Kind of peaks your interest on the subject quickly.

Thanks for sharing Ike


locked Re: Charleston Union Station

SouRwyFan
 

Wow, interesting reading!
It opens lots of questions in my mind.
What cars were used as the coach station, each time?
Did they go back into service afterwards?
How long did the new Southern station last? 
Is it still standing or did it past into history like the Union station?
Kind of peaks your interest on the subject quickly.

Thanks for sharing Ike


locked Re: Passenger Car Lettering

Evan Miller
 

Thanks George, pretty funny seeing how Southern picked out the new scheme! I guess it would have been a common sight to see heavyweight trains with both the old Roman lettering and new block lettering in the consist.

-Evan Miller

On Saturday, March 14, 2020, 02:52:49 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


The first use of the 7" block style passenger car lettering was on the “Southerner” and “Tennessean” trains of 1941. The SRHA archives contain a letter from Pullman-Standard asking how the railroad wanted its new lightweight cars to be lettered. At first, the Southern had no idea. As EMC had already created 7" “SOUTHERN” lettering for the E-6s, a copy of that drawing was sent to P-S to be used.

Most “stencil” (lettering placement) drawings and drawings for individual full size letters and numerals; Roman, Official car and block are in the SRHA archives

Ike


locked Re: Passenger Car Lettering

George Eichelberger
 

The first use of the 7" block style passenger car lettering was on the “Southerner” and “Tennessean” trains of 1941. The SRHA archives contain a letter from Pullman-Standard asking how the railroad wanted its new lightweight cars to be lettered. At first, the Southern had no idea. As EMC had already created 7" “SOUTHERN” lettering for the E-6s, a copy of that drawing was sent to P-S to be used.

Most “stencil” (lettering placement) drawings and drawings for individual full size letters and numerals; Roman, Official car and block are in the SRHA archives

Ike


locked Passenger Car Lettering

Evan Miller
 

Hello all. When did Southern begin to use this simplified lettering on passenger cars?
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/passenger/575.jpg


locked Charleston Union Station

George Eichelberger
 

There have been multiple conversations on the SouthernRailway.io group that describe the extent of the material in the SRHA archives. Although it will never be possible to make even a small portion of the archives available on-line, as people may be spending more time at home than usual we have uploaded an entire file on Charleston Union Station to Google Drive. Anyone interested in the subject can do their own “primary research” on what is probably an unknown aspect of Southern Railway history.

The following link to Google Drive contains 183 individual scans of letters and newspaper clippings beginning with the fire that destroyed Charleston Union station January 10, 1947 continuing to 1954. Maps and photos of Charleston are located in other files.


Please note that this is probably a one-time upload of an entire file. We simply do not have the volunteer manpower to repeat it. For anyone interested in this level of research, consider joining or donating to the SRHA archives.

Also, please provide your comments….

Ike


locked train show: Harrisburg, Penna. Saturday, March 14

Cohen Bob
 

Just a little reminder of the annual Harrisburg, Penna train show this Saturday, March 14, 2020.

 

It will be held from 9 am to 3 pm at the I.W. Abel Union Hall of the Steelworkers Union at 200 Gibson Street in Steelton, Pa. 17113.

Admission is $5 and kids are free and like all these things, you never quite know who and what's gonna be there. 

No doubt there will be models and parts a plenty but there should also be a goodly selection of railroad books, magazines both current, recent and who knows what else, railroadianna, papers issued by the railroads and depending upon whom you see and how anxious you are to acquire their wares, or how anxious they are to sell their goodies, the negotiations are often-times where the real fun is. No doubt some timetables of your favorite railroads will be there as well, so make sure to get there early and cherry-pick the goodies. Videos of all RR subjects imaginable should also be there and a test track for your new purchased models is also present, not to mention some operating modular layouts.

If you are hungry, there's a snack bar as well.

In addition, the sponsoring club, the Harrisburg Chapter, NRHS will have their Harris Tower open for tours and viewing at the Amtrak/former PRR station so there's another option, and who knows what action your camera might record while there.

How do you get to the show?

I'm glad YOU asked that:

It is located 1 mile south of I-83 in Harrisburg. From I-83N, use Exit 44b, then go south on 19th Street to Gibson, turn RIGHT, and follow your nose until you get to the Union Hall. From I-83S, use Exit 44 B, make a left at the stop sign, then left on Paxton St., then right onto 19th Street to Gibson. Turn Right on Gibson and once again, follow your nose.

Hope to see you there and hope you have a great time.

 

Bob Cohen


locked Re: Derail sign

Stephen Warner
 

Don't forget the SR standard for derails on tracks descending to main tracks. In the early 70's we were instructed to make a report on those locations, and many of them were replaced with switchpoint derails, as well as all new track constrcution.  The direction of the points were away from the main tracks.  If I recall correctly, they had a standard switch target.  Prior to this, I had a call to go to Greenland where the ASG Glass plant had a descending lead with a Hayes derail.  A hopper car had run down the lead, hopped over the derail and kept going out onto the (dark) main line.  Never got a wheel off of the rail except momentarily when the wheel "in the air"  over the derail.  No main line trains were involved, but it may have been industry-caused or the local may have let one get away.  We replaced it with a sw. pt. derail.  In another instance, the Night Local got one over the Hayes flop-over derail at Frisco Yd, shoving in a set off.  It was a new brakeman, and he threw off the adjacent derail to the track that he lined up.  Clarence McGee, my ATS used to say that the one thing that worked on SR was the derail.  But at Greenland he was wrong.


locked train show reminder: Harrisburg, Penna. Saturday, March 14

Cohen Bob
 

Just a little reminder of the annual Harrisburg, Penna train show on Saturday, March 14, 2020.

It will be held from 9 am to 3 pm at the I.W. Abel Union Hall of the Steelworkers Union at 200 Gibson Street in Steelton, Pa. 17113.

Admission is $5 and kids are free and like all these things, you never quite know who and what's gonna be there. 

No doubt there will be models and parts a plenty but there should also be a goodly selection of railroad books, magazines both current, recent and who knows what else, railroadianna, papers issued by the railroads and depending upon whom you see and how anxious you are to acquire their wares, or how anxious they are to sell their goodies, the negotiations are often-times where the real fun is. No doubt some timetables of your favorite railroads will be there as well, so make sure to get there early and cherry-pick the goodies. Videos of all RR subjects imaginable should also be there and a test track for your new purchased models is also present, not to mention some operating modular layouts.

If you are hungry, there's a snack bar as well.

In addition, the sponsoring club, the Harrisburg Chapter, NRHS will have their Harris Tower open for tours and viewing at the Amtrak/former PRR station so there's another option, and who knows what action your camera might record while there.

How do you get to the show?

Here is what I have:

It is located 1 mile south of I-83 in Harrisburg. From I-83N, use Exit 44b, then go south on 19th Street to Gibson, turn RIGHT, and follow your nose until you get to the Union Hall. From I-83S, use Exit 44 B, make a left at the stop sign, then left on Paxton St., then right onto 19th Street to Gibson. Turn Right on Gibson and once again, follow your nose.

Hope to see you there and hope you have a great time.

Bob Cohen



locked Re: Derail sign

Paul Schmidt
 

Much thanks! So no "D" or "Derail" or "Attend Derail" pointing out the obvious. Explains why I can't find anything. ...
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA


locked Re: Derail sign

Paul Schmidt
 

That's the era, Bill! I've searched the web for a photo --anything -- of what that sign would look like. 
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA


locked Re: Derail sign

David Payne
 


Well, except when “newly installed” and the crew of the Griffin-Yates turn blind shoves into the passing track ... oops ... apparently working well in either direction.
DP


On Mar 4, 2020, at 1:14 PM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Painted orange, standards for location, and I promise we all knew where they were.
CEA


On Mar 4, 2020, at 11:11 AM, pschmidt3013@... wrote:

Understood. So how did the Southern indicate to TY&E that a derail was present?
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA

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