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Re: A Silverside off-line?
D. Scott Chatfield
Thanks for the insights, Jim. Scott Chatfield |
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Re: A Silverside off-line?
George Eichelberger
I asked Ed King if he knew anything about the photo. He did not except to say he did not think it was in Bristol.
Ed would certainly know, he is "Mr Steam" and from Bristol. Ike |
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Re: A Silverside off-line?
Jim King
I own this color negative and the envelope it came in was dated and stated Bristol. The brick building behind the Silverside gon also looks like the yard office that’s still there but there’s very little to use for “proof”, just the brick construction and a little of the building’s shape.
Jim King www.smokymountainmodelworks.com
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Re: A Silverside off-line?
George Eichelberger
Jim:
I don't know myself but info from Ed King is "take it to the bank" stuff. Ike |
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Archives Issues....,
George Eichelberger
David: Your points, and questions are excellent. Let me take a stab at an answer….. Yes, there is the concept of multiple “processes” to organize, scan, make available for researchers and publish material from the SRHA archives. The issue is the resources (people and hardware) to do that work. It is hard to describe the extent of the SRHA archives much less to estimate how much work needs to be done. I cannot make a complete list but we did weigh everything for the move to Chattanooga…the total was 30 Tons not including the Spacesaver shelving. The good news is that we already have many items scanned at archival resolution (3,261 diesel drawings, 5,889 diesel photo negatives, 3,604 SR steam photos, etc.) Everything is stored on redundant (and some remote) hard drives. That still leaves many thousands of photos, drawings and documents to do. At this point, we give priority to scan items needed for TIES, specific research projects and model manufacturers’ requests for information. We have not “OCRd” many items yet as just getting scans done takes a lot of time. (We can get assistance from folks away from Chattanooga with things like OCR once scans can be sent.) Re your items: 1. The new building is about as fireproof as possible. We want as much “electrical” disconnected as possible when no one is there. 2. There are many documents that are more than 100 years old. Some are very difficult to scan and many cannot use a document feeder because of their age and condition. 3. Any task that can be done remotely is good. We have several important items that are not resolved. Access and use of the material is a biggie. Obviously, we want the collection to be used (I estimate people will care about historical information on the Southern for maybe the next twenty years?) but the cost to acquire and maintain the collection needs to be considered. For example, in the past ten years or so individual SRHA members and NS have paid at least $100,000 to purchase various private collections. How do we reconcile/afford acquiring and maintaining the archives if we make everything freely available? No one wants to see the ridiculous prices that appear so common today but we must find a balance between the two. (Investment in the new building exceeds $1M.) IMHO, the Internet is making this question more difficult. People expect to find everything on the ’net at no cost. I sit in on many presentations where the only items shown are pulled from an Internet browser. No actual research beyond Google. At the Collinsville RPM, people from at least a dozen RR historical groups described the issues they thought most important. There was nearly a 100% correlation between what everyone was thinking about…we didn’t have many answers but all recognized how important the issues are. Every historical groups’ archive or library needs input and help, cash and labor, to figure this stuff out. I’d love to hear any comments, on or off list as anyone prefers. Ike On Dec 21, 2018, at 12:13 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote: Ike, Since I don't actually know the answer...is there a process in place to just go ahead and do a blanket digital scan of everything in the Archives into a computer? Tied to that, are scans being ran through OCR software to allow the scans's individual words to be searchable? This would probably help the research phase of things big time. I ask as scanning would open the door for a few things: 1. Redundancy of the Archives' Contents in case of fire, theft, lawsuit, etc. 2. Preservation of any documents that contain paper that has extremely aged, damaged, etc. and its lifespan is limited. 3. Opens up the ability for many more folks to organize, catalog, research, and write articles for the SRHA, etc. by removing the geographic requirement of needing to live near or visit Chattanooga. 4. As previously mentioned, if OCR'ed, this would make far easier to search key words in the text of all of the documents. Just a question and a thought. David Friedlander NY, NY On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:36 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
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Re: Archives Issues....,
David Friedlander
Ike, Thanks for the response. Merry Christmas to you and the list. TBS has already started their annual 24-hour run of A Christmas Story. My replies are embedded within and start with DF and are in red. I definitely don't have all of the answers. David Friedlander On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:18 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
DF: That tonnage is massive. I can't imagine what you scanned so far even equals a ton, but that is awesome to hear.
DF: That prioritization makes sense, as long as you know everything you generally have scattered about in the 30 tons. I'll help you with the OCR on what you sent earlier today.
DF: Can't argue with any of those points.
DF: This is a more complex and interesting discussion. All of this effort just for roughly twenty years of usage? Now the prioritization for TIES, modeling, etc makes more sense. Perhaps just bulk scan as much as you can and slide stuff out randomly with a naming convention to others to rename files and OCR for you. DF: Cost wise...At this point, what else is there to acquire? What is the prioritization for acquisition vs. maintain? What happens to a private photo collection if no one is willing to pay for it? Does it just disappear or does it eventually get donated or purchased at a lower cost? Can the owner get a tax write off by donating it? Whats the cost-benefit analysis for the members? Maintaining what the archive may arguably have a greater return at this point in time and seems like a higher priority given the $1M investment into a building. I never mentioned make anything freely available. Perhaps put together more equipment diagrams books or one-off's for particular cars, locomotives etc. Not sure if a modeling e-zine like others do would be worth the effort to perhaps have an additional revenue source to help the archives. Would take considerable effort to put together with volunteer effort for an unknown ability to bring in revenue. I would imagine the best bet to get a considerable sum towards the Archives is to pursue NS for some sort of yearly tax write-off on their part. Perhaps that sort of relationship already exists. DF: At some point down the line...when the current leadership/membership/interested parties no longer have the resources to keep this effort going (that 20-year mark), does it make sense to eventually approach a third party, such as the national archives in DC to outsource the maintenance of the materials? Is the material something that they would take? How quickly do they go through collections and finish "archiving" them? Do they make material available to all?
DF: That's kind of where society has gone, for better or worse. I've been out of college for about 8 years. I was still taught to use a library in undergrad and grad school, but I can't speak for the generation that came after me and/or are still in school. I remember when I was taught in school that citing Wikipedia and certain other websites was not acceptable, but it appears to be reasonably acceptable today. I bet most kids today are used to things being available on the internet. Back to the library (like an "general" archive) example...I personally haven't stepped foot in a library since school, so I cannot say from first hand experience how they fit into today's society. The only books I read these days are for model railroading or my career(very few since most info is available online...freely) and nothing else and I don't need a Library for internet.
DF: Yea, I'm sure the SRHA is not the only group with this problem. I don't necessarily think consolidation would help either...financially might help keep things going, but then there will be the politics and fighting over who's material is more important to further organize, preserve, etc. For the eternal preservation of all societies material...I have no idea how fruitful approaching a third party like the National Archives (about a railroading wing of material) would speed up any archival process, or restrict access to material for any such society.
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Re: Archives Issues....,
Kyle Shannon
Hello Ike and all, I would recommend looking at the way the NYCSHS has offered their collections up as a way for the archive to hopefully pay for itself and also be a bit more autonomous on requests for drawings. In a nutshell, they scanned many of their drawings and sell collections of drawings for each class of steam locomotives, name trains, car types, etc. They sell these drawings to modelers and offer a licensing rate for commercial use. Several other historical societies have similar offerings but none as extensive that I have seen online as what the NYCSHS has. I know this is a large undertaking but could be a way to better justify the digitization of some of these resources and offer a way to offer them to the public. I don’t know exactly the extensiveness of the SRHA archives but I feel like there’s likely enough material to do a similar set up. There’s obviously some interest in the material so it could work. Kyle
On Tuesday, December 25, 2018, 10:00:11 AM EST, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
Ike, Thanks for the response. Merry Christmas to you and the list. TBS has already started their annual 24-hour run of A Christmas Story. My replies are embedded within and start with DF and are in red. I definitely don't have all of the answers. David Friedlander On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:18 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
DF: That tonnage is massive. I can't imagine what you scanned so far even equals a ton, but that is awesome to hear.
DF: That prioritization makes sense, as long as you know everything you generally have scattered about in the 30 tons. I'll help you with the OCR on what you sent earlier today.
DF: Can't argue with any of those points.
DF: This is a more complex and interesting discussion. All of this effort just for roughly twenty years of usage? Now the prioritization for TIES, modeling, etc makes more sense. Perhaps just bulk scan as much as you can and slide stuff out randomly with a naming convention to others to rename files and OCR for you. DF: Cost wise...At this point, what else is there to acquire? What is the prioritization for acquisition vs. maintain? What happens to a private photo collection if no one is willing to pay for it? Does it just disappear or does it eventually get donated or purchased at a lower cost? Can the owner get a tax write off by donating it? Whats the cost-benefit analysis for the members? Maintaining what the archive may arguably have a greater return at this point in time and seems like a higher priority given the $1M investment into a building. I never mentioned make anything freely available. Perhaps put together more equipment diagrams books or one-off's for particular cars, locomotives etc. Not sure if a modeling e-zine like others do would be worth the effort to perhaps have an additional revenue source to help the archives. Would take considerable effort to put together with volunteer effort for an unknown ability to bring in revenue. I would imagine the best bet to get a considerable sum towards the Archives is to pursue NS for some sort of yearly tax write-off on their part. Perhaps that sort of relationship already exists. DF: At some point down the line...when the current leadership/membership/interested parties no longer have the resources to keep this effort going (that 20-year mark), does it make sense to eventually approach a third party, such as the national archives in DC to outsource the maintenance of the materials? Is the material something that they would take? How quickly do they go through collections and finish "archiving" them? Do they make material available to all?
DF: That's kind of where society has gone, for better or worse. I've been out of college for about 8 years. I was still taught to use a library in undergrad and grad school, but I can't speak for the generation that came after me and/or are still in school. I remember when I was taught in school that citing Wikipedia and certain other websites was not acceptable, but it appears to be reasonably acceptable today. I bet most kids today are used to things being available on the internet. Back to the library (like an "general" archive) example...I personally haven't stepped foot in a library since school, so I cannot say from first hand experience how they fit into today's society. The only books I read these days are for model railroading or my career(very few since most info is available online...freely) and nothing else and I don't need a Library for internet.
DF: Yea, I'm sure the SRHA is not the only group with this problem. I don't necessarily think consolidation would help either...financially might help keep things going, but then there will be the politics and fighting over who's material is more important to further organize, preserve, etc. For the eternal preservation of all societies material...I have no idea how fruitful approaching a third party like the National Archives (about a railroading wing of material) would speed up any archival process, or restrict access to material for any such society.
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Re: Archives Issues....,
I think all the questions about preservation, cost, and use are intertwined. If you have materials out there that people can use, you create a following and a group dedicated to the railway's history that goes beyond the people who were alive to see the railway run.
Find some innovative ways to get kids, young adults, or even older adults interested by appealing to their natural interests (collecting, building, gaming, crowd source funding, etc) and channel that interest through the SRHA and its collections. You don't need railroad history buffs to keep the SRHA afloat. You just need to have people who are interested enough to help, and in so doing, contribute to the preservation. What about getting someone to take those drawings and create 3-D vector graphic images of Southern locomotives and equipment? Find some young 3-D artist and give them access to do things you never considered. Perhaps they'll create something that lots of people from a new generation find attractive and thus willing to support. What about a video show produced every quarter about something from the archive? Find some young, energetic and interesting host to generate views and interest. What about trivia games? Find something that LOTS of people like and is tied to the SRHA. Make them like the SRHA because of that thing. Think about the 1401 as an example. There are a LOT of railroads that do not have a steam locomotive preserved, much less one in the national museum system. My grandfather gave me a green and gold 4-6-2 ho scale model when I was about 12 years old, then took me to see the 1401 in the Smithsonian. That ONE locomotive type got me started with an interest in the Southern despite never having lived near or seen the Southern operate as a real railroad. I've been a member of the SRHS and then SRHA because of that green and gold Pacific in full and scale size. So exposure to one locomotive in full and scale sizes was the key to get me to support an historical society. What other human activities could be re-directed to support the SRHA through a single item? Has the SRHA asked the Smithsonian if they would be willing to have something (like a handout or flyer) about the SRHA located at the 1401 display? Why not? I think that the key right now is getting some interesting materials out there that capture the imaginations (and eventually the wallets or checkbooks) of a new generation--but not necessarily a generation who see the same value in the preservation of an historic collection that existing SRHA members do. Link their passion to the SRHA and the collection, so that supporting the SRHA is supporting their passion. I'm not sure what kind of interests you can capture. It could be making the TVRM a vacation destination and having real historical preservation be a side benefit. It could be getting something out there digitally to attract kids who go on to make a pile of money and contribute to the organization that made their dreams come true. It could be an innovative interactive Southern Railway theme for 3D goggles that interests a whole new generation. If there are materials out there for kids with the inclination, then the interest will not wane as much as Ike fears. But if the materials are hidden away waiting for the day when someone interested in the same things the original members are interested in can donate money, your bet is placed on a smaller and smaller pool of candidates. Eventually, the capital to preserve is gone and the collection goes to the bin heap like so much of history. I think the SRHA has to capture the interest of the next generation or even the materials that are preserved now will be in danger. People predicted the decline of the model train hobby, but I have seen more and more kids get interested and more adults get involved deeper than just a train around the Christmas tree. Modular layouts, sophistical electronics, custom graffiti as weathering, a focus on operations, scenery as art, the use of 3-D printing, laser cut kits, have each contributed to the sustainability of the hobby. No one thing did it; lots of small things contributed. The same might be true of historic preservation. Dave In just brainstorming, I thought of a number of ideas that may or may not have any merit. Right now, the SRHA needs ideas. Let the board sort through the ideas and see which are feasible. brainstorm 1) What makes the photo collections worth preserving? Is it the photos themselves? Or the information they contain? Perhaps the photo collections should be sold off! What if you scanned every photo in the collection, kept a copy for the archive, but sold the original for $5-$10 each? Then the SRHA still has a copy of the information for research purposes, but has a regular source of revenue. Maybe you sell them in limited sets of 10 with themes (water tanks, stations, motor cars, workers) to attract the collector types? If the SRHA keeps a copy and sells the original, then the SRHA doesn't have to spend any money or effort worrying and enforcing copyright, but still has the information that is the most important aspect of a photo. And the modelers--who want the info, but could care less about collecting photos, would have a steady stream of information flowing out to them. You could satisfy the collectors, the modelers, reduce the maintenance or enforcement needs, and have a potential income stream. brainstorm 2) What if we have 1,000 photos of the Southern's locomotives, structures, and equipment preserved in a vault, but no one alive can identify or name the contents of the photos? What if we have only 250 of those photos but they are fully documented because they were shared and knowledgeable people identified the time, place, and contents of the photo? Which is more important? Perhaps you scan a photo or set number of photos each month and place them somewhere temporarily for members and the public to identify the contents (i.e., location, time, place, subjects) in a way that could be collected and associated with the image. Over time, that information could be verified, but at least it will be collected before too many people are gone. If this became a popular thing (maybe have MRH or Kalmbach or a prototype video production company promote the info search to gain followers and get a broader audience). brainstorm 3: Priority setting) What is worth preserving? And what should be preserved? Should all Southern Railway depots be preserved? Probably not worth it. But should one of each major type be preserved? That would be nice. If a depot is preserved as a privately owned family dwelling, is that the same as a publicly accessible building that anyone can measure? Is it enough if a small amount of the paint and wood is preserved, if drawings and photos of the depot exist? Is it enough to know the shop-based varieties of steam locomotives exists, with lists of the variations documented by photographs? Or must one example of a locomotive from each shop be saved? We cannot save it all, so what is important to save and how best should it be saved? Find out the priorities of existing SRHA members and then see if other priorities could attract new members. Big organizations are big because the cater to one need that is widespread or because they can cater to many different needs. Perhaps having all Southern Railway materials possible under one roof in one archive only serves a small population's needs, but with small tweaks to the mission and methods, the SRHA could serve a much larger population's needs? Would those tweaks be worthwhile? I think the SRHA should be debating these kinds of questions and figuring out priorities and testing every possibility to see if one works. It could be the small number of individuals who happen to have the time and willingness to meet and be SRHA board members or to be archive contributors, do not have the answers. Those who are able and willing to serve may care the most and have the most invested, but the qualities that led them to serve might be those that make it hard for them to consider alternatives that might work? Would they really care if the idea to preserve all the materials came from somewhere else, so long as the most material was preserved? Monday, December 24, 2018, 10:49:50 PM, you wrote:
-- David Bott Sent from David Bott's desktop PC |
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Re: Archives Issues....,
Carl Ardrey
Our partnership with TVRM has allowed us to broaden our exposure to many groups of all ages. Where else can you see 5 operable, 2 steam, Southern Railway locomotives plus other Southern equipment, but at TVRM. We've had many people come by the archives while participating in activities at TVRM. It's all been very positive.
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Re: A Silverside off-line?
Jim King
N&W 475 is what it's coupled to. I have an original color neg showing that engine with the Silverside coupled to it. N&W 433 was already spotted on the Abingdon panel track display before this date. 475 was dolled up to look "ancient" for the 1957 NRHS convention. It was the lead engine on the tripleheader that ran on the Blacksburg branch. 475 has been operating at Strasburg for many years, thankfully.
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Jim Crow Coaches
Charles Powell
A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation. I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody.
Any thoughts anyone? Charlie Powell https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0 |
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Re: Jim Crow Coaches
C J Wyatt
<<
On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:23:35 PM EDT, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:
A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation. I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. Any thoughts anyone? Charlie Powell >> Are we sure that the Smithsonian got it correct about which end was the colored end? Take a look at the divided chair cars built for the 1941 Tennessean and Southerner streamliners. Jack Wyatt
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Re: Jim Crow Coaches
George Eichelberger
Charlie:
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I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers. We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case? Ike On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote: A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation. I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. Any thoughts anyone? Charlie Powell https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0 |
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Re: Jim Crow Coaches
Don Yelverton
Ike, Where did this car color come from? Don
On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Charlie: I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers. We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case? Ike On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote: A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation. I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. Any thoughts anyone? Charlie Powell https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0 |
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Re: Jim Crow Coaches
Bill Schafer
Don:
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I know the answer to the car color. The SRHA knows it’s wrong; the Smithsonian chose not to utilize the correct colors, saying that the authentic colors wouldn’t look “right” in the lighting that would be used where the car would be displayed. This information came directly to me from Bill Withuhn. Coupled with the apparent lack of luggage racks in the “colored” end of the car, it appears to me that the Smithsonian has not been very conscientious in portraying this car as it was in regular service. —Bill
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Re: Jim Crow Coaches
George Eichelberger
I’ve attached a low res version of Southern drawing SP-6098 showing the floor plan of partitioned coaches 1200-1206. The variations in the lav. sizes are shown as are the luggage racks on both ends of the car. This drawing, among others, was provided before the car was “restored” for the Smithsonian. Written specifications also make it clear both ends of the car were equipped with luggage racks.
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Our (SRHA’s) concern when we did the research was that people would seize on ANY difference in the car as “proof” the railroad wanted to discriminate between the races. I was unhappy with the restoration but what is left to say after the Smithsonian made such a mess out of the 1401! We have a tremendous amount of Southern passenger car info in the SRHA archives. It is open to anyone that wants to do serious research on the Southern Railway. Everyone is invited to come to the archives grand opening on the Saturday of this year’s convention at Chattanooga. We would like to accomplish and finish many things before the opening but we need manpower and cash. SRHA member or not…..please consider helping! Folks may also help TVRM acquire Southern diner 3307 from Amtrak. It will be used for food service on TVRM. Ike  On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote: Ike, Where did this car color come from? Don
On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Charlie: I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers. We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case? Ike On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote: A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation. I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. Any thoughts anyone? Charlie Powell https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0 |
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Re: Jim Crow Coaches
Don Yelverton
Bill,
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Good to hear from you. What a backwards way to do things. It’s not that difficult to use the correct color temp lighting. You’d think they’d never lighted a display before. Wonder how many other items they’ve done like this? I’m sure it’s not the first time. Wonder what color the PS4 would using this methodology? Don On Apr 6, 2019, at 9:48 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:
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Re: Jim Crow Coaches
George Eichelberger
We know that the Southern delivered 1401 shopped and painted. There is NO way the railroad would have done it any other way. Now…could we get someone super rich to become railfans and help get the engine out of display purgatory? …Or at least help us and TVRM at Chattanooga?
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Ike On Apr 6, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote: Bill,
Good to hear from you. What a backwards way to do things. It’s not that difficult to use the correct color temp lighting. You’d think they’d never lighted a display before. Wonder how many other items they’ve done like this? I’m sure it’s not the first time. Wonder what color the PS4 would using this methodology? Don
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Re: Jim Crow Coaches
It is my feeling that the Smithsonian is hung up on the Jim Crow South. The entire exhibit around 1401 is focused on those terrible times and their effect on American Blacks. The rest of the story about the role the railroads had in building this nation is effectively ignored, though it appears that there never was any kind of similar problems with motor cars. Of course, the exhibit is sponsored by General Motors.
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Re: Jim Crow Coaches
Ed Mims <wemims@...>
Did the Southern paint it’s coaches a bright green? All that I saw were painted PULLMAN GREEN. None were the color of the car seen in the attached link which is close to being “Kelly” green. If this shade of green was used what was the time period? The color looks like it could be a primer.
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Ed Mims On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:35 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
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