Date   

moderated Re: Southern Railway Books

C J Wyatt
 

Sounds like a reasonable approach and I would hope to purchase. What wheel arrangement do expect to lead off with? You could go with the one which has the most general appeal outside of the Southern Railway fans, or you could perfect the format with something like the Consolidation's.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 06:09:20 PM EST, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote:








In an effort to stir the pot and drum up a little discussion, let’s talk about a steam book series. SRHA has a project in the works, and it hit the front burner this weekend.  That means we’re moving ahead, but we’re not so far along that we can’t pivot the project based on demand-and we want the books to be in high demand by you folks. 




Our basic structure will be the already mentioned 1990’s steam articles. Those were full of great info and really shed a lot of light on the world of Southern steam. We realize a lot of folks have never seen those articles and those that have will now have the opportunity to own the info in a one source book. Next, we plan to republish -some- of the original pictures, but enhance the books with photos and drawings from the archives-many of which have never been published. 




As for format, we’re leaning on a landscape or horizontal format with plenty of room for large photos. Where possible we will use color photos, especially since there aren’t many in print and like Paul Simon sang, everything looks worse in black and white.  In an effort to control our price and ultimately your cost, the books will probably be soft cover and be wheel type specific-a volume for 2-8-0’s, a volume for 4-6-2’s, etc.




Do you folks think this is a project that you could support by purchasing the books once they are published?  Is there anything else you would like to see?  Is there something you would prefer to be omitted?  You all write the checks and we want to give you a good product that you’ll be happy to buy. 









On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:24 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


  
 Simply as info. Presently there are 3,272 Southern steam loco scans, 141 memos, and 1,424 steam loco drawings in the archives. It’s not really possible to estimate how many more there are of those to scan but I would be surprised if we are at the 75% mark.



In other categories: there are 3,352 items in the just the Southern 40’ box car files and 18,767 in the diesel digital files….(500 not yet filed from this weekend.)




Ike

 



On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:06 PM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:


I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.





moderated Re: Southern Railway Books

Will Kesler
 

I think I would definitely support this project by purchasing the books.


moderated Re: Southern Railway Books

Kevin Centers
 

In an effort to stir the pot and drum up a little discussion, let’s talk about a steam book series. SRHA has a project in the works, and it hit the front burner this weekend.  That means we’re moving ahead, but we’re not so far along that we can’t pivot the project based on demand-and we want the books to be in high demand by you folks. 

Our basic structure will be the already mentioned 1990’s steam articles. Those were full of great info and really shed a lot of light on the world of Southern steam. We realize a lot of folks have never seen those articles and those that have will now have the opportunity to own the info in a one source book. Next, we plan to republish -some- of the original pictures, but enhance the books with photos and drawings from the archives-many of which have never been published. 

As for format, we’re leaning on a landscape or horizontal format with plenty of room for large photos. Where possible we will use color photos, especially since there aren’t many in print and like Paul Simon sang, everything looks worse in black and white.  In an effort to control our price and ultimately your cost, the books will probably be soft cover and be wheel type specific-a volume for 2-8-0’s, a volume for 4-6-2’s, etc.

Do you folks think this is a project that you could support by purchasing the books once they are published?  Is there anything else you would like to see?  Is there something you would prefer to be omitted?  You all write the checks and we want to give you a good product that you’ll be happy to buy. 



On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:24 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

 Simply as info. Presently there are 3,272 Southern steam loco scans, 141 memos, and 1,424 steam loco drawings in the archives. It’s not really possible to estimate how many more there are of those to scan but I would be surprised if we are at the 75% mark.

In other categories: there are 3,352 items in the just the Southern 40’ box car files and 18,767 in the diesel digital files….(500 not yet filed from this weekend.)

Ike
 

On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:06 PM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:

I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.


moderated Saluda Summer

Will Kesler
 

There is a silent film of action on the Saluda grade that can be found on YouTube right here, https://youtu.be/3XyAHXJNYhc
Sadly it is a VHS copy of the film. Does anyone know if the original film strip survives?


moderated Re: Southern Railway Books

George Eichelberger
 

Simply as info. Presently there are 3,272 Southern steam loco scans, 141 memos, and 1,424 steam loco drawings in the archives. It’s not really possible to estimate how many more there are of those to scan but I would be surprised if we are at the 75% mark.

In other categories: there are 3,352 items in the just the Southern 40’ box car files and 18,767 in the diesel digital files….(500 not yet filed from this weekend.)

Ike
 

On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:06 PM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:

I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.


moderated Re: Southern Railway Books

George Eichelberger
 

All:

Donnie has a good point but it’s important to note, the copyright/right to publish of most of the photos in the SRHA archives are held by SRHA.

Getting anything published takes, manpower to get it done. We have started books on various Southern lines (the “S” Line from Salisbury to Knoxville will be first, maybe in two parts), the series of rolling stock books is moving ahead nicely and now a Southern steam loco book is coming together.

The time conflict we have is due to the fact that we have to get the various subjects organized in the archives BEFORE we can get that material published. There are many thousands of photos, documents and drawings we need to scan. (Additional “new” material has been coming in regularly…..)

The Archives work sessions are the third Friday and Saturday of every month but they usually begin on Thursday and could go through Sunday if folks were interested. We organize visits to the archives other times when people tell us they will be at TVRM.

The best way to obtain archives materials and get books published?….come help! …..archives@...

Ike

On Jan 22, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Donnie Dixon <rf4cnam69@...> wrote:

Just a small point of order. COPYRIGHT may just need to be considered. Officially, one cannot just compile a bunch of photos and put them into a book without the permission of the originator. Of course, it is done all the time. We know that. But most of what is copied is not for commercial use, so not much is done. However, commercial use of someone else's work is frowned upon. Builder's photos and library of congress stuff that is of a certain age can be used, but it is tricky

Donnie


moderated Re: Southern Railway Books

Will Kesler
 

I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.


moderated Re: Southern Railway Books beating the dead horse

milepost 131
 

A few weeks back,  I posted that a Prince book was for sale on eBay.
No doubt someone MUST have bought it. Anyone bid? (that might indicate interest)

The Prince book does come up for sale off and one, still.
Ranks and Low doesn't show as frequently BUT don't forget the re-print.As some have pointed out.. Tilletson's book are also available. 

Heck, in a few years my family will probably dump mine. <G>

Now then to putting together another book...
I question whether there remains enough "audience" willing to buy enough books even at a good price. And a small print run costs more. Color adds to the production costs!
I would think the SRHA has considered whether there is a ROI to publish a new book.
Speaking of SRHA back in the 90's "Ties" had some very good coverage of different steam  locomotives by class. In some ways I found it more informative than some of the books which have been published.

As some have pointed out before "photos" in color were just becoming more "popular" as SRY was shifting to diesels. So there is (probably) no "huge treasure trove" waiting for discovery.  Even the slides that SRHA sold a few decades ago had been "impacted" by the color shift that Kodachrome suffers over time.. as I recall an attempt was made to improve the color in the slides sold.

Sadly... what is out there (at one time or another) is probably the best we'll ever see.

As for the archives and not having to travel... maybe SRHA would be willing to consider if you (and others) would underwrite the entire up-front expense.  As the old radio ad said... "Money talks." 


Gordon Andrews



On 1/22/2023 11:42 AM, Will Kesler wrote:
I recall that there was discussion about a Southern Railway book to potentially be made. I do not know if this will indeed come to be true, but I would like to ask if there would be anyway to make a book on the photos of Southern steam engines. Not many of these books exist, and most of them have few color photos if not any. I would like to ask is there a way to just compile a bunch of photos into one book or multiple, and maybe include commentary on the photos. It seems a lot of the discussions here are more on scenery and sites than trains, which is something I’m honestly not very interested in. Even if no such book can be made, could there at least be a way to view these photos without traveling to Tennessee? Something like this would be very interesting to me, and answers to this question would be very appreciated.


-- 
You can't debate with someone who isn't even listening to your point.


moderated Re: Southern Railway Books

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Will, I can appreciate your request. I would remind you of a few things I’ve learned.

1. There are two major but out-of-print photo books on Southern steam—Prince’s and the Ranks & Lowe books cover the classes and some history pretty well. There is regional coverage in several books by Tillotson and class examples in the Southern Railway Handbook by Wiley & Wallace.
2. There are back issues of TIES that go in detail about some of the most common variants either due to shop s or time among popular classes of 2-8-2’s, 4-8-2’s, 2-10-2’s and some 2-8-0’s.
3. The last regular steam on the Southern was 1953, early in the color film era, especially among amateur photographers. So there is limited color photography of the majority of decades when Southern ran steam.
4. There are substantial color photos of steam in Southern Railway in Color Volumes 1 & 2 books.
5. There are a series of CD-ROMs with many photos by class of steam power that can be purchased from SRHA.
6. There are several web sites with Southern steam photos, especially southern.railfan.net and some of the more general railroad archive sites.
7. Donnie mentioned copyright and I agree it is a major obstacle for any commercial product.
8. No one has uncovered a trove of photos from a Southern executive like the Barriger library did from the B&O. And if they did they may not be endowed with a mission that can justify and pay for scanning and releasing them free of charge like the Barriger on Flikr.

It is hard to say that a comprehensive book would ever be produced again given the market for hardcopy books right now, but with some careful collecting and purchases, you can compile a lot of information. And who knows? Vinyl records made a comeback.

There’s a lot on my list if I won the lottery so that I had the resources. A book on the wide variety of Southern freight cars up to 1937 (due to amalgamation on lines) would be one. Steam locomotives of the Southern would be another. A non-profit book on the A&Y is another.

We all need dreams.

Best,

Dave


Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Jan 22, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Donnie Dixon <rf4cnam69@...> wrote:

Just a small point of order. COPYRIGHT may just need to be considered. Officially, one cannot just compile a bunch of photos and put them into a book without the permission of the originator. Of course, it is done all the time. We know that. But most of what is copied is not for commercial use, so not much is done. However, commercial use of someone else's work is frowned upon. Builder's photos and library of congress stuff that is of a certain age can be used, but it is tricky

Donnie







moderated Re: Southern Railway Books

Donnie Dixon
 

Just a small point of order.  COPYRIGHT may just need to be considered.  Officially, one cannot just compile a bunch of photos and put them into a book without the permission of the originator.  Of course, it is done all the time. We know that. But most of what is copied is not for commercial use, so not much is done.  However, commercial use of someone else's work is frowned upon. Builder's photos and library of congress stuff that is of a certain age can be used, but it is tricky

Donnie


moderated Southern Railway Books

Will Kesler
 

I recall that there was discussion about a Southern Railway book to potentially be made. I do not know if this will indeed come to be true, but I would like to ask if there would be anyway to make a book on the photos of Southern steam engines. Not many of these books exist, and most of them have few color photos if not any. I would like to ask is there a way to just compile a bunch of photos into one book or multiple, and maybe include commentary on the photos. It seems a lot of the discussions here are more on scenery and sites than trains, which is something I’m honestly not very interested in. Even if no such book can be made, could there at least be a way to view these photos without traveling to Tennessee? Something like this would be very interesting to me, and answers to this question would be very appreciated.


moderated Train show reminder THIS weekend January 21-22; Richmond, Va.

Cohen Bob
 


                                Just that last minute little reminder of the next train show coming up THIS weekend; Richmond, Virginia on the weekend of January 21-22, 2023; Saturday and Sunday. It will be located in the Richmond Raceway Complex on the northern side of the city on the old state fairgrounds site at Laburnum Ave., not too far off of I-95. Hopefully, all got their 'honey do' lists completed in time.

There will be an admission charge but it will be good for both days.

Plenty of free parking out there for all who visit as well.

Models a plenty, All the major gauges should be represented from G down to Z or maybe even TT. I presume there will be some modular layouts as well.

So come on down and check out all the books, magazines, models, railroadianna, timetables, RR rule books, locomotive operating manuals; you name it if it involved the railroads. I am sure all your favorite railroads will have some representation there, RF&P, C&O, Amtrak, Southern, B&O, ACL, SAL, BB, PRR, Conrail, just to name a few. Lots of goodies here.

Hope to see you there.

Bob Cohen





Next up just TWO weeks, The Great Scale model train show in Timonium, Maryland; Feb 4-5.


moderated Re: Branch Line Designations - it's actually VERY simple, and I mean VERY simple

mike turner
 

The branch line from Belton, SC to Walhalla, SC, crossing the Wash-Atl mainline in Seneca, SC, was designated the Z line. Originally the Blue Ridge Railway and predating the actual Southern Railway, it was later a disjoint part of the Carolina & Northwestern.

--
Mike Turner
MP-Z35


moderated Re: Branch Line Designations - it's actually VERY simple, and I mean VERY simple

Tim
 

In the 1974 Carolina Division ETT, the Carolina and Northwestern main line from York, SC to Lenoir, NC (included Newton, Conover, and Hickory on the S-Line)  did not have a letter designation. Later it was called the HG line. 

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC (on the SB line. A designation that is still used by the L&C now that they own the stretch from SB92 to SB60.)


moderated Re: Branch Line Designations - it's actually VERY simple, and I mean VERY simple

Tracey Green
 

Thanks for the pointer to that 1912 list; that's very interesting and helpful. But I still can't really discern a pattern to the letter designations. For example, B was the Harrisonburg Branch but C was Cayce to Jacksonville (some of the C line still lives near Columbia).


moderated Re: Branch Line Designations - it's actually VERY simple, and I mean VERY simple

A&Y Dave in MD
 

The 1912 Station list for all the Southern at that time includes letters representing lines in the station number column.  Junctions have multiple station numbers, e.g., Greensboro has 3 numbers, K-0, H-0, and CF-69 since it was at origin of K and of H lines and 69 miles from CF origin in Mount Airy.

CF could be for Cape Fear or Cumnock to Fayetteville (closer to original pre-Civil war terminii).  The SM branch was Stokesdale to Madison. CR was Climax to Ramseur.  I doubt all branches were lettered by the station at each end, but at least those from the A&Y in NC appear to be. 

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Jan 17, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

I'll stand corrected on this one but somewhere around the turn o the 19th to the 20th century, the newly created Southern Railway came up with a "numbering system" for branchlines.

The plan was simple: they started from north and worked their way south. This apparently did NOT include mainlines.

The A line was the Bluemont Branch to be leased off in 1912. 54 miles
The B line was the Harrisonburg Branch going from Manassas Jct. to Harrisonburg 111.85 miles
The CW line was the Warrenton branch going from Calverton to Warrenton 9.2 miles
.......... and so it proceeded southwardly.

Those particular ones I know and somewhere (don't dare ask me now where,)  I once read this.
The Franklin & Pittsylvania RR was either the "E" or the "F" line and I don't remember which.

I suspect that over the years with various consolidations, and acquisitions and perhaps running out of letters in the proper alphabetical order with regards to location, things may have changed but some of the other correspondents can fill in some blanks.

The Norfolk & Western's Shenandoah Valley line going from Hagerstown to Roanoke, 138 miles has long been and I mean long before the merger with Southern, has been designated the "H" line, undoubtedly for its origination in Hagerstown. Others more knowledgeable than me can likely fill in more details on much of the above but that, my friends are some very basics.

Bob Cohen


moderated Re: Branch Line Designations - it's actually VERY simple, and I mean VERY simple

Carl Ardrey
 

All the CofG mileposts are from Savannah with a letter prefix designating the line. The former ETV&G lines used a letter suffix. 
CEA

On 01/17/2023 2:13 PM Tracey Green <tracey.c.green@...> wrote:


There also at one time was an R line in I think the Danville Division and there is one on the Piedmont Division today 



On Jan 17, 2023, at 3:09 PM, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

At some point the letter system became division dependent. There is a C-line on just about every division and many of the timetables as an example. Does anyone know when that came into play? Maybe the 60s when the addition of so many smaller roads occurred?

Jason Greene 

On Jan 17, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

I'll stand corrected on this one but somewhere around the turn o the 19th to the 20th century, the newly created Southern Railway came up with a "numbering system" for branchlines.

The plan was simple: they started from north and worked their way south. This apparently did NOT include mainlines.

The A line was the Bluemont Branch to be leased off in 1912. 54 miles
The B line was the Harrisonburg Branch going from Manassas Jct. to Harrisonburg 111.85 miles
The CW line was the Warrenton branch going from Calverton to Warrenton 9.2 miles
.......... and so it proceeded southwardly.

Those particular ones I know and somewhere (don't dare ask me now where,)  I once read this.
The Franklin & Pittsylvania RR was either the "E" or the "F" line and I don't remember which.

I suspect that over the years with various consolidations, and acquisitions and perhaps running out of letters in the proper alphabetical order with regards to location, things may have changed but some of the other correspondents can fill in some blanks.

The Norfolk & Western's Shenandoah Valley line going from Hagerstown to Roanoke, 138 miles has long been and I mean long before the merger with Southern, has been designated the "H" line, undoubtedly for its origination in Hagerstown. Others more knowledgeable than me can likely fill in more details on much of the above but that, my friends are some very basics.

Bob Cohen


moderated Re: Branch Line Designations - it's actually VERY simple, and I mean VERY simple

Tracey Green
 

There also at one time was an R line in I think the Danville Division and there is one on the Piedmont Division today 


On Jan 17, 2023, at 3:09 PM, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

At some point the letter system became division dependent. There is a C-line on just about every division and many of the timetables as an example. Does anyone know when that came into play? Maybe the 60s when the addition of so many smaller roads occurred?

Jason Greene 

On Jan 17, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

I'll stand corrected on this one but somewhere around the turn o the 19th to the 20th century, the newly created Southern Railway came up with a "numbering system" for branchlines.

The plan was simple: they started from north and worked their way south. This apparently did NOT include mainlines.

The A line was the Bluemont Branch to be leased off in 1912. 54 miles
The B line was the Harrisonburg Branch going from Manassas Jct. to Harrisonburg 111.85 miles
The CW line was the Warrenton branch going from Calverton to Warrenton 9.2 miles
.......... and so it proceeded southwardly.

Those particular ones I know and somewhere (don't dare ask me now where,)  I once read this.
The Franklin & Pittsylvania RR was either the "E" or the "F" line and I don't remember which.

I suspect that over the years with various consolidations, and acquisitions and perhaps running out of letters in the proper alphabetical order with regards to location, things may have changed but some of the other correspondents can fill in some blanks.

The Norfolk & Western's Shenandoah Valley line going from Hagerstown to Roanoke, 138 miles has long been and I mean long before the merger with Southern, has been designated the "H" line, undoubtedly for its origination in Hagerstown. Others more knowledgeable than me can likely fill in more details on much of the above but that, my friends are some very basics.

Bob Cohen


moderated Re: Branch Line Designations - it's actually VERY simple, and I mean VERY simple

Jason Greene
 

At some point the letter system became division dependent. There is a C-line on just about every division and many of the timetables as an example. Does anyone know when that came into play? Maybe the 60s when the addition of so many smaller roads occurred?

Jason Greene 

On Jan 17, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

I'll stand corrected on this one but somewhere around the turn o the 19th to the 20th century, the newly created Southern Railway came up with a "numbering system" for branchlines.

The plan was simple: they started from north and worked their way south. This apparently did NOT include mainlines.

The A line was the Bluemont Branch to be leased off in 1912. 54 miles
The B line was the Harrisonburg Branch going from Manassas Jct. to Harrisonburg 111.85 miles
The CW line was the Warrenton branch going from Calverton to Warrenton 9.2 miles
.......... and so it proceeded southwardly.

Those particular ones I know and somewhere (don't dare ask me now where,)  I once read this.
The Franklin & Pittsylvania RR was either the "E" or the "F" line and I don't remember which.

I suspect that over the years with various consolidations, and acquisitions and perhaps running out of letters in the proper alphabetical order with regards to location, things may have changed but some of the other correspondents can fill in some blanks.

The Norfolk & Western's Shenandoah Valley line going from Hagerstown to Roanoke, 138 miles has long been and I mean long before the merger with Southern, has been designated the "H" line, undoubtedly for its origination in Hagerstown. Others more knowledgeable than me can likely fill in more details on much of the above but that, my friends are some very basics.

Bob Cohen


moderated Branch Line Designations - it's actually VERY simple, and I mean VERY simple

Cohen Bob
 

I'll stand corrected on this one but somewhere around the turn o the 19th to the 20th century, the newly created Southern Railway came up with a "numbering system" for branchlines.

The plan was simple: they started from north and worked their way south. This apparently did NOT include mainlines.

The A line was the Bluemont Branch to be leased off in 1912. 54 miles
The B line was the Harrisonburg Branch going from Manassas Jct. to Harrisonburg 111.85 miles
The CW line was the Warrenton branch going from Calverton to Warrenton 9.2 miles
.......... and so it proceeded southwardly.

Those particular ones I know and somewhere (don't dare ask me now where,)  I once read this.
The Franklin & Pittsylvania RR was either the "E" or the "F" line and I don't remember which.

I suspect that over the years with various consolidations, and acquisitions and perhaps running out of letters in the proper alphabetical order with regards to location, things may have changed but some of the other correspondents can fill in some blanks.

The Norfolk & Western's Shenandoah Valley line going from Hagerstown to Roanoke, 138 miles has long been and I mean long before the merger with Southern, has been designated the "H" line, undoubtedly for its origination in Hagerstown. Others more knowledgeable than me can likely fill in more details on much of the above but that, my friends are some very basics.

Bob Cohen

21 - 40 of 1904