Date   

locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Ms-7 locomotives

C J Wyatt
 

Brent, here is one to get you started. Birmingham 8/25/1946.

Jack

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 05:35:21 PM EDT, Brent Greer <studegator@...> wrote:


The most recent post on the locomotives of the Atlanta-Birmingham line caught my attention.

I was not aware of the Ms-7 class of engones acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders.  

Can anyone share photos of these in Southern Ry. service that I might use for modeling purposes?

Sincere thanks, 
Brent


locked Ms-7 locomotives

Brent Greer
 

The most recent post on the locomotives of the Atlanta-Birmingham line caught my attention.

I was not aware of the Ms-7 class of engones acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders.  

Can anyone share photos of these in Southern Ry. service that I might use for modeling purposes?

Sincere thanks, 
Brent


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?


On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Re: Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

TIM ANDREWS
 

Former B&O office car 98.  Getting extensive body, side sill and roof repairs.

On Monday, September 13, 2021, 12:16:07 PM EDT, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


Just curious, what is the other open platform car behind it?

Jason Greene 

On Sep 13, 2021, at 11:33 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike

<Sou OC-21 in TVRM shop.jpeg>


locked Re: Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

George Eichelberger
 

Jason:

Good question! I don’t know…my first thought was that it was TVRM’s #98 but I think that is out of the shop after some extensive work.

I was in the 21 a month or so ago (Still in disguise as NS-8). The work George Walker and the shop guys do is first class. After they removed a window, they painted the inside of the side sheet around the opening for additional protection. 

Now that we have the new scanner in service at the archive, we will try to scan more of the rolls of official car drawings in the "high and wide” cabinets (they are BIG drawings!) I have never seen a photo taken as the Southern’s smooth side cars were being rebuilt. Between the sides and roofs, the Pullmans must have been stripped to their framework. (Fenton Wells started on a Southern smooth side book. Now that we are away from the madness at Kennesaw and hopefully getting through Covid(?), maybe that can be re-started?)

Make a plan to take some of the SERM folks up to Chattanooga sometime. This week’s trip will be the first time I’ve seen a “Baby Train Master” in person. (Tim Andrews told me TVRM has spent around $100,000 moving the TM and an Alco switcher donated to them by TVA to Chattanooga. That is after TVA loaded the locos on trucks with their equipment. Modeling in 12” to the foot is serious business!)

Ike


On Sep 13, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

Just curious, what is the other open platform car behind it?

Jason Greene 

On Sep 13, 2021, at 11:33 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike

<Sou OC-21 in TVRM shop.jpeg>



locked Re: Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

Kyle Shannon
 

Jason,

That is TVRM’s ex-B&O 98. It’s also been undergoing a ground up rebuild.

Kyle




On Monday, September 13, 2021, 12:16 PM, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

Just curious, what is the other open platform car behind it?

Jason Greene 

On Sep 13, 2021, at 11:33 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike

<Sou OC-21 in TVRM shop.jpeg>


locked Re: Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

Jason Greene
 

Just curious, what is the other open platform car behind it?

Jason Greene 

On Sep 13, 2021, at 11:33 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike

<Sou OC-21 in TVRM shop.jpeg>


locked Southern office car 21 and the SRHA archives

George Eichelberger
 


The restoration of Southern OC-21 at TVRM is moving along nicely. The attached photo shows the car in the shop a week or so ago. All of the windows are out so the weatherstripping can be replaced. (On any passenger car, water leaking into the car from bad weatherstripping will ruin the side sills and sheets.)

The car is being restored inside and out* back to its configuration when the Southern converted it from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956. TVRM has acquired a pair of six-wheel, outside swing hanger trucks to replace the Pullman trucks now under the car. (The prior owner sold the replacements Southern put under the car in the ‘60s. The “new” trucks match the Southern’s replacements.)

* Auto restoration folks would call the work a “resto-mod”. It is being as restored as near to “1956” as possible but will have everything necessary to operate on and off TVRM trackage; chemical toilets, a generator, full HEP and such. Of course, it will be painted Southern Green and lettered appropriately.

Donations can be made to TVRM or SRHA though their web sites:



The entire Hayne Shop file that includes the car’s purchase from Pullman and everything (!) for its conversion to a Southern official car has been scanned and is in the SRHA archives. It includes everything down to the upholstery and carpets and paints used over the years as OC-21. The file is being followed as much as possible for the restoration. It is a level of detail railfans and modelers hardly every see. We will send a link to download the file for anyone donating at least $100 to TVRM or the archives.

As info..as of today, TVRM has spent about $160,000 to purchase, move and restore the car. Most of that has been donated by only four people. Restoring equipment, maintaining archives and acquiring rolling stock is expensive. This is a perfect time to ask anyone interested in the Southern or the fine work TVRM is doing to maintain and operate the largest operating railroad museum in the Southeast to please donate to those efforts! (Speaking just for myself, I’m sure there are a million justifications for not donating to historical organizations or railroad museums….I really don’t want to hear them.)

Ike



locked Re: AGS and CNO&TP reports of foreign line official car movements

George Eichelberger
 

Chris:

Thanks! I don’t want to post material a lot of people would not find interesting but there is so much in the archives that I expect very few of us know anything about, I want to make other aware of the kinds of “stuff” available there. Our work sessions are usually a series of “look what I just found” comments coming from someone/somewhere.

We are back to our work session schedule of the third weekend (Fri-Sat) every month but until the Covid business clears up, we ask (as strongly as possible) that only fully vaccinated people come. (We are neither “scared” or “political” about it, we simply do not want any of our volunteers to get sick.)

The next session is this coming Friday and Saturday at the archives building on Turntable Road at the Grand Junction end of TVRM. We will be “firing up” the new 48” scanner, working on multiple projects and simply enjoying each other’s company. (If time permits, we might cross the street and check out the future TVRM indoor museum building, the F-M engine just in from TVA and the work on Southern office car #21.

If folks cannot come to help in person, donations and memberships to TVRM, SRHA or the L&NHS (in the process of moving in with us) can all help keep the work moving ahead. (The L&NHS convention is the same weekend in Cartersville, GA. I expect some of us will be at the archives on Thursday if anyone wants to stop by if they pass Chattanooga on I-24 or I-75.

Ike



On Sep 11, 2021, at 11:05 AM, CMayhew <chris.mayhew611@...> wrote:

George,

This is a great dive into how some of the other railroad officials used CNO&TP and AGS to travel. Thanks for sharing. On a related note, when will the next sets of archives sessions happen? 

-Chris Mayhew


locked Re: AGS and CNO&TP reports of foreign line official car movements

 

George,

This is a great dive into how some of the other railroad officials used CNO&TP and AGS to travel. Thanks for sharing. On a related note, when will the next sets of archives sessions happen? 

-Chris Mayhew


locked AGS and CNO&TP reports of foreign line official car movements

George Eichelberger
 

From SRHA Southern Railway Presidents’ File 182, Box 6390

I did not realize the number of foreign lines official  cars the Southern moved. Here are three (reduced size and resolution) examples from a report sent to SR President W.W. Finlay from the Alabama Great Southern (AGS) and CNO&TP from Q4 of 1911.

Ike



locked Cars on hand at military const projects 3-21-1941

George Eichelberger
 

The role of the railroads in moving freight before and during WWII was huge, we understand that, but the attached, and file
at the Google Drive link that follows go into remarkable detail.

From the Southern Railway Historical Association’s archives at TVRM, Box 496A, File 3:


Ike


locked Re: Southern Railway History

aramsay18
 

This email is in reference to "A History of the Legal Development of the Railroad System of Southern Railway Company" (Legal History for short.)

Just FYI review of the Dedication and Preface to the 1958 Supplement makes it clear the Southern considered this document a valuable and worthwhile reference.  It is dedicated to Harry Ashby Debutts and states "under whose direction it was done."

Review of the 1958 Preface also shows the 1901 Legal History was considered a valuable document.  Significant work was put into it, as well as into the two supplements.  The 1958 Preface states "The invaluable book of Fairfax Harrison called A History of the Legal Development of the Railroad System of Southern Railway Company was published in December, 1901, and for the ensuing fifty-seven years has served the staff as its most useful and indispensable tool whenever any question has arisen as to the legal and corporate origins of the many lines of railroad making up Southern Railway System."

I've attached softcopy of the 1958 dedication and the 1958 Preface (which I stitched together into a PDF).  I've also attached a picture of the 1958 Supplement, showing how it was bound.  I think all copies of the 1958 supplement were bound that way (the 1921 supplement was paperbound).

Andy Ramsay
Berryville VA


On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 10:07 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Bill:

Fairfax Harrison was certainly interested in who had copies of the document. Note attached inquiry and sample of responses from SRHA Archives Box 192A File 21:

Ike




On Aug 23, 2021, at 8:52 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

I have seen a number of sets of bound volumes of the Legal History over the years, and the bindings seem to have been customized a number of different ways. The most common appears to be the main Legal History in two volumes, softcover. The cover is in light blue paper. 

Most of the hardcover ones I have seen are in the camel-brown covers with the red label on the spine. Some of these are in two volumes; some are one gargantuan volume that is usually falling apart if it ever got any use in its lifetime. And then there are the two volume sets that include the First Supplement bound into the second volume. 

The First Supplement was also produced in a stand-alone soft cover version and hard cover version. Usually, the 100 page hardcover was in the same camel-brown-with-red-label-on-spine as its bigger brothers. 

As for the Second Supplement, I don’t think I ever saw it in a paperback version; my sense is that Southern bound all of them in the camel brown when they were printed. Together, the pre-SRHA bound volumes clustered together on a bookshelf look impressive, like they belong in a lawyer’s office (which they usually were). 

I have no proof of this - maybe someone on the list can clarify - but it would make sense to me that some, if not all, of Southern’s outside counsels had sets of the Legal History on their bookshelves too. That may be why Southern had so many extra, unbound copies printed - to send to new outside counsel as needed.

Much harder to find is the other component to make the Legal History set complete: the large, framed 1921 system map that hung on the wall of many attorneys in the executive headquarters in Washington. On this map, each line or line segment is numbered, and each number correlates to a long list on the right of the map. Each item on the list refers to one of Southern’s many predecessors or components. To learn more about the predecessor, you look its name up in the index (at end of the second volume of the original Legal History). The map was issued about the time the First Supplement was printed. 

Not one to waste a good base map, Southern reduced, adapted, and updated it over the years and used it for myriad other purposes over the years. Here’s an example of the base map, with the list of predecessors. The list on the left is arranged by the numbered line segment; the list on the right is alphabetical and also shows the number of the corresponding line segment. This map has been updated to 1962 (it shows the Interstate but not the Central of Georgia, for example) and should look familiar. Any number of special-purpose maps for internal use were adapted from this map over the years:

—Bill Schafer

On Aug 23, 2021, at 19:03, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I suspect that a copy in a library (e.g. University of Michigan) did not come directly from the Southern Railway, but perhaps from the estate of an official or board of directors member who managed to snag a copy for themselves.

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, August 23, 2021, 06:19:48 PM EDT, aramsay18 <aramsay37@...> wrote:


Hello  Chris

I have an interest in the early years of the Southern, from the early 1890s through the 1930s, how it was formed, structured, financed, and evolved, which is quite a story by itself.  The history's stated purpose is to document the legal aspects of that monumental project.  However, it also has information on other aspects, to include some financial and some operational data can be gleaned from it.  IMHO it is the best source for such early material on the formation of the Southern that is publicly available.  (Haven't explored the SRHA archives in this area yet.)  I've been using the two hardcopy, softbound books parts 1 through 5 for a while and have not found any issues such as missing pages, meaningless text or anything like that.  It appears the version I have was soft bound by the Southern.  The online Google Books softcopy version was scanned from a hardbound copy (it appears that is one 1545 page book) from the transportation library at the University of Michigan. So U of M took delivery of it from the Southern somehow.  Perhaps they put it into hardbound form. I doubt it would have been included in their transportation library if it was of no value. Review of their copy shows some times when the person doing the scanning became tired and didn't line up the pages quite right, but I've yet to find any unreadable pages completely messed up by the scanner.  It is puzzling to me why they refused LOC's request but apparently satisfied U of M's request.  I can understand why the Southern would state the compilation is basically what is called working papers and not a formal document, because if they designate it a formal document, then it might box them into a corner in various legal actions (of which there were plenty).  Perhaps that is why they didn't want to make it available to the general public.  However nevertheless quite a bit of work was put into it.

Andy Ramsay
Berryville VA



<1921 System Map - B&W SRailwayMap_1.pdf>


locked Re: Southern 2605 cu ft two-bay covered hopper - Sou 4000-4199

Robert Graham
 

These 200 SOU aluminum covered hopper cars were delivered with the same red lettering as the Big John covered hoppers. I clearly recall seeing one in Greensboro in 1962, but was shooting B&W only. They definitely received black lettering later on. See my attached photo.

N&W received 50 very similar 100 ton aluminum 2 compartment covered hoppers from Magor in Jan 1963, N&W 71800-71849. They were 2655 cu ft cars, slightly larger capacity than the SOU 2605 cu ft cars. They had the same roof hatch arrangement, same side panel arrangement, same Morton steel roof walks, and from a photo appeared to be almost identical to the SOU 4000-4199. The N&W cars were lettered in the standard N&W block livery with the road name above the N&W as on the hopper cars of the period. Lettering color was black.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "George Eichelberger"
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io", "ModelingTheSouthern@southernrailway.groups.io"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday August 25 2021 2:50:24PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern 2605 cu ft two-bay covered hopper - Sou 4000-4199

Southern 2605 cu ft two-bay covered hopper - Sou 4000-4199

This series of two-bay aluminum covered hoppers were built by Magor in 1959. Already 100-ton capy. cars, they were simply increased to four-bays create the “Big John” cars. Although I do not think I’ll have the “nerve” to cut down one of my (beautiful) Exact-Rail Big Johns, it would make an interesting SR kitbash. (Look at them with a Big John photo and you’ll note the hatches appear to line up for the two-bay car with the two middle bays removed. 

Lettering on the slides I have show green stencil paint but Southern practice with green always seems to have some cars with black lettering. No discussion of stencil colors on Southern covered hoppers has ever been found in the archives?

Can anyone tell us if any other railroads had the same Magor 2605 cu ft two-bay aluminum cars?

Ike

INBOX23094566e59c629f56e56165706d942e74a

 Southern 4072 Inman Yard 6-82 G. Eichelberger photo

PS I just noticed, note this snippet of an early photo of Sou 4173…The sides did not extend behind the ladders as built. The triangular pieces on the 1982 photo of Sou 4072 were obviously added. Big Johns were built that way?!

INBOX230945071caab9fd83451fdb72c6b82d363


locked Southern 2605 cu ft two-bay covered hopper - Sou 4000-4199

George Eichelberger
 

Southern 2605 cu ft two-bay covered hopper - Sou 4000-4199

This series of two-bay aluminum covered hoppers were built by Magor in 1959. Already 100-ton capy. cars, they were simply increased to four-bays create the “Big John” cars. Although I do not think I’ll have the “nerve” to cut down one of my (beautiful) Exact-Rail Big Johns, it would make an interesting SR kitbash. (Look at them with a Big John photo and you’ll note the hatches appear to line up for the two-bay car with the two middle bays removed. 

Lettering on the slides I have show green stencil paint but Southern practice with green always seems to have some cars with black lettering. No discussion of stencil colors on Southern covered hoppers has ever been found in the archives?

Can anyone tell us if any other railroads had the same Magor 2605 cu ft two-bay aluminum cars?

Ike


 Southern 4072 Inman Yard 6-82 G. Eichelberger photo

PS I just noticed, note this snippet of an early photo of Sou 4173…The sides did not extend behind the ladders as built. The triangular pieces on the 1982 photo of Sou 4072 were obviously added. Big Johns were built that way?!


locked Re: Southern Railway History

Bill Schafer
 

Robert:

You have the complete set. The two volumes with the SR-arrow monogram were bound and sold by SRHA; the Second Supplement was produced by the Southern in 1958. NS donated the guts of Vols 1 and 2, as well as the already-bound Second Supplements to the SRHA many moons ago, as you say. 

—Bill

On Aug 23, 2021, at 21:59, Robert Richardson <seaboard@...> wrote:

Here is the set of Legal History of the Southern Railway that I have. Bought this set from SRHA at Train Show some years ago, I do not remember the year I purchased these, but it was many moons ago.
 
Robert Richardson
Henderson, NC
MP S114.5
 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Schafer
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 8:53 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway History
 
I have seen a number of sets of bound volumes of the Legal History over the years, and the bindings seem to have been customized a number of different ways. The most common appears to be the main Legal History in two volumes, softcover. The cover is in light blue paper. 
 
Most of the hardcover ones I have seen are in the camel-brown covers with the red label on the spine. Some of these are in two volumes; some are one gargantuan volume that is usually falling apart if it ever got any use in its lifetime. And then there are the two volume sets that include the First Supplement bound into the second volume. 
 
The First Supplement was also produced in a stand-alone soft cover version and hard cover version. Usually, the 100 page hardcover was in the same camel-brown-with-red-label-on-spine as its bigger brothers. 
 
As for the Second Supplement, I don’t think I ever saw it in a paperback version; my sense is that Southern bound all of them in the camel brown when they were printed. Together, the pre-SRHA bound volumes clustered together on a bookshelf look impressive, like they belong in a lawyer’s office (which they usually were). 
 
I have no proof of this - maybe someone on the list can clarify - but it would make sense to me that some, if not all, of Southern’s outside counsels had sets of the Legal History on their bookshelves too. That may be why Southern had so many extra, unbound copies printed - to send to new outside counsel as needed.
 
Much harder to find is the other component to make the Legal History set complete: the large, framed 1921 system map that hung on the wall of many attorneys in the executive headquarters in Washington. On this map, each line or line segment is numbered, and each number correlates to a long list on the right of the map. Each item on the list refers to one of Southern’s many predecessors or components. To learn more about the predecessor, you look its name up in the index (at end of the second volume of the original Legal History). The map was issued about the time the First Supplement was printed. 
 
Not one to waste a good base map, Southern reduced, adapted, and updated it over the years and used it for myriad other purposes over the years. Here’s an example of the base map, with the list of predecessors. The list on the left is arranged by the numbered line segment; the list on the right is alphabetical and also shows the number of the corresponding line segment. This map has been updated to 1962 (it shows the Interstate but not the Central of Georgia, for example) and should look familiar. Any number of special-purpose maps for internal use were adapted from this map over the years:
 
—Bill Schafer


On Aug 23, 2021, at 19:03, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
 
I suspect that a copy in a library (e.g. University of Michigan) did not come directly from the Southern Railway, but perhaps from the estate of an official or board of directors member who managed to snag a copy for themselves.
 
Jack Wyatt
 
On Monday, August 23, 2021, 06:19:48 PM EDT, aramsay18 <aramsay37@...> wrote: 
 
 
Hello  Chris
 
I have an interest in the early years of the Southern, from the early 1890s through the 1930s, how it was formed, structured, financed, and evolved, which is quite a story by itself.  The history's stated purpose is to document the legal aspects of that monumental project.  However, it also has information on other aspects, to include some financial and some operational data can be gleaned from it.  IMHO it is the best source for such early material on the formation of the Southern that is publicly available.  (Haven't explored the SRHA archives in this area yet.)  I've been using the two hardcopy, softbound books parts 1 through 5 for a while and have not found any issues such as missing pages, meaningless text or anything like that.  It appears the version I have was soft bound by the Southern.  The online Google Books softcopy version was scanned from a hardbound copy (it appears that is one 1545 page book) from the transportation library at the University of Michigan. So U of M took delivery of it from the Southern somehow.  Perhaps they put it into hardbound form. I doubt it would have been included in their transportation library if it was of no value. Review of their copy shows some times when the person doing the scanning became tired and didn't line up the pages quite right, but I've yet to find any unreadable pages completely messed up by the scanner.  It is puzzling to me why they refused LOC's request but apparently satisfied U of M's request.  I can understand why the Southern would state the compilation is basically what is called working papers and not a formal document, because if they designate it a formal document, then it might box them into a corner in various legal actions (of which there were plenty).  Perhaps that is why they didn't want to make it available to the general public.  However nevertheless quite a bit of work was put into it.
 
Andy Ramsay
Berryville VA
 
 
 

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