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locked Re: History Book?

C J Wyatt
 

I think a biography of Samuel Spencer would be an interesting book / history PhD dissertation.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, June 26, 2022 at 12:38:20 PM EDT, aramsay18 <aramsay37@...> wrote:


....

I'm seeking material detailing how J. P. Morgan established the SRW as a corporate entity working with Samuel Spencer in 1893 and 1894.  (Very unfortunately for the Southern and the US railroad industry in general, Spencer was killed in a train accident in Nov. 1906.)

Best Regards from Berryville Virginia

Andy Ramsay
locked Re: Southern Railway Bells

Will Kesler
 

Are you serious that’s awesome, I didn’t know they had a bell box??? I wouldn’t even expect something like that too exist. Since I live in North Carolina, I think I wouldn’t be able to get up there soon. Is the bell box able to be photographed so I can see what’s on there or is it mixed up with letters?
locked Re: History Book?

aramsay18
 

Hello Clark and others

Here's a good starting point for Harrison's history. He starts with the Southern's predecessors such as the Richmond & Danville, beginning at the time of the Civil War.

This volume covers SRW history from 1827 to 1899. As noted, there are a number of additional volumes and supplements.

Very interesting.  This is only a good starting point, there is a lot to the history of the SRW.

In particular as to the R&D Harrison's Part II, Chapters 1 and 2, and Part III, Chapters 1, 2, and 3 define how the core of what would in 1894 become the SRW was formed.

It was the R&D that laid the groundwork.

Some volumes are available on Amazon (for IMO exorbitant prices) but you probably can do better with ABE books etc. if you want hardcopies.

This volume is available as a free download of a PDF of this 1523 page book. Or it can be read online for free.


Good luck with your search, let's keep in touch to compare notes.

I'm seeking material detailing how J. P. Morgan established the SRW as a corporate entity working with Samuel Spencer in 1893 and 1894.  (Very unfortunately for the Southern and the US railroad industry in general, Spencer was killed in a train accident in Nov. 1906.)

Best Regards from Berryville Virginia

Andy Ramsay


On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 9:21 AM David Carpenter via groups.io <dcarp=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
Clark,

Fairfax Harrison’s History of the Legal Development of the Southern Railway details the mergers, etc. SRHA found a number of them unbound and bound them 20-30 years ago along with the update (Vol 2) and maybe 3? Harrison was President of the Southern.

David

> On Jun 24, 2022, at 4:30 PM, Clark Barrow <clark.barrow@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, I am interested in reading about the history of Southern Railway. Can anyone suggest a book like this? I did an online service and it mostly brings up illustrated history books, but I am looking for the stories about the operations, management, mergers, etc. Something like a novel, but non-fiction of course. Thanks!
>
>
>
>






locked Re: Southern Railway Bells

George Eichelberger
 

You are welcome to go to the archives and look into the “Bells” box. It includes info of when and where bells were donated. I have always wondered if donated bells could be located and obtained?

Ike


On Jun 26, 2022, at 11:49 AM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:

As many of you probably already know this. Southern donated many many bells to people, churches, and schools and other places during the ending steam era and after that too. I know there are many left but I just can’t seem to find one for myself. I own a N&W K-2a 4-8-2 bell from #133. But finding a southern bell would be very nice and very special. I have seen two before at a school and a house in the area but neither are selling nor will they probably ever. Does anyone know where I could perhaps look?

locked Southern Railway Bells

Will Kesler
 

As many of you probably already know this. Southern donated many many bells to people, churches, and schools and other places during the ending steam era and after that too. I know there are many left but I just can’t seem to find one for myself. I own a N&W K-2a 4-8-2 bell from #133. But finding a southern bell would be very nice and very special. I have seen two before at a school and a house in the area but neither are selling nor will they probably ever. Does anyone know where I could perhaps look?
locked MCB Wood Standard

George Eichelberger
 

I just posted the following to the STMFC group..

Researching the wood needed to re-deck a 40’ flat car at TVRM, I located this drawing (Southern SF-4174) in the SRHA digital files. As it shows MCB dimensions, the drawing would apply to many railroads. Note how many types of Southern cars are shown.

Note the “V” groove in the 6” siding stock, purely ornamental?

Ike

PS The joint SRHA-L&NHS-RPM meet will be at TVRM Sept 30/Oct 1st in the new Exhibit building. The model railroad layout in the Headquarters building and the SRHA and L&NHS archives will be open at various times Thursday-Sunday. Info as it is available on the SRHA, TVRM and L&NHS web sites.
locked Re: History Book?

David Carpenter
 

Clark,

Fairfax Harrison’s History of the Legal Development of the Southern Railway details the mergers, etc. SRHA found a number of them unbound and bound them 20-30 years ago along with the update (Vol 2) and maybe 3? Harrison was President of the Southern.

David

On Jun 24, 2022, at 4:30 PM, Clark Barrow <clark.barrow@...> wrote:

Hello, I am interested in reading about the history of Southern Railway. Can anyone suggest a book like this? I did an online service and it mostly brings up illustrated history books, but I am looking for the stories about the operations, management, mergers, etc. Something like a novel, but non-fiction of course. Thanks!
locked Re: Two projects" A Southern Steam Book and an archives reading room

David Eisman
 

With the L&N HS and the SR HS collections so close together it would be interesting to produce a book comparing the 2 Railroads.  This book could examine not just the equipment but also the different philosophies and leadership personalities that guided these 2 companies that competed so much for the same customers.

Any interest?
David Eisman


On Jun 23, 2022, at 10:08 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


Dave, good analysis.

I don't mean to nitpick, but I believe the last new steam locomotives on the Southern were the Class Ls-2 type 2-8-8-2's, nos. 4051-4058 instead of Ps-4 No. 1409. Though they all were built in 1928, the Baldwin construction numbers suggest that the articulated engines were last.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 09:40:02 PM EDT, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:


Gentlemen,

I agree with Ike that a new Southern steam book could be a significant improvement over the Prince book, and not just in terms of photographic quality, although that in itself would be a plus. Several points come to mind:

(1) History of Development:

The Prince book has about a page of text for each major wheel arrangement. While better than nothing, this does not convey the history of development of steam on the Southern, for instance, why A series 0-6-0s evolved but then gave way to USRA 0-8-0s, why one builder got the bid over another, or what improvements were made over time within particular classes. There is also an economic angle to this story, since Southern did not purchase any new steam after the last Ps-4 in the late 20s, and avoided the Superpower revolution entirely....
locked Re: History Book?

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Tillotson and Prince are great but essentially equipment data resources relying heavily on locomotive photos and rosters/diagrams. Prince covers the predecessor and subsidiary roads. He also addresses steam ships mostly from the affiliated Clyde interests on the east coast. Tillotson just loved the line. Both loved steam, but Tillotson ventured into photos of diesels. Prince never cared for infernal combustion. Another good photo book is Ranks and Lowe’s Southern Steam Power.

I do like history. I majored in the history and philosophy of science and technology. I have read many of the histories of various transcontinental railroad creation efforts from Empire Express to the Panama Canal Railway. I’ve read a fair bit on railroads as the first corporation and the source of standard time (Schivelbush’s Railway Journey covers that).  The Burke and Klein books are the best for the Southern. Burke focuses upon the Presidents with a little  biography and a focus on the decisions they faced and the way each put their stamp on the Southern. Klein focuses on the overall financial environment and business strategies that lead to the formation of the Southern by the New York bankers through Spencer.

I enjoy data and stories. I mostly read histories of 1870-1950 North America, but not much on ships.  I tend to devote any extra time to the Southern data snd modeling.

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Jun 25, 2022, at 7:16 AM, Robert Richardson <seaboard@...> wrote:



Curt Tillotson

 

Robert Richardson

Henderson, NC

MP S114.5

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of James Walton
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2022 1:18 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] History Book?

 

If you can find it, Richard Prince's book on the Southern's steam locos is a must-have. Curt Thompson's books on steam and diesel may be worth a look as well.

 

On Fri, Jun 24, 2022, 22:11 Charles Harris <railroads@...> wrote:

Hi Dave

Looks like you have a great knowledge on transport books.

Looking for historical data on  Robert Macy Naval Architect and Engineer.  Wrote a lot of books on ship safety.  I would like to locate a historical history of his career including times at Ingalls Shipbuilding. Also noted for designing the Ingalls 4-S diesel loco in 1946.   This loco probably ran on Southern trackage out of Decatur where the Iron Works associated factory (Birmingham Tank Co), appears to have been located on the Southern Railroad trackage.

 

Thankyou

Charles Harris

 

 

 

 

On 25/06/22 11:03, A&Y Dave in MD wrote:

Clark,

 

Southern Railway: The Road of the Innovators by Burke Davis is like that.   You may also enjoy "The Great Richmond Terminal: Foundation of The Southern Railway" by Maury Klein.  They can be found for reasonable prices in used bookstores (or online at Alibris, Abe's Books, or sometimes Amazon and eBay).

 

Dave

 

Friday, June 24, 2022, 4:30:21 PM, you wrote:

 

Hello, I am interested in reading about the history of Southern Railway. Can anyone suggest a book like this? I did an online service and it mostly brings up illustrated history books, but I am looking for the stories about the operations, management, mergers, etc. Something like a novel, but non-fiction of course. Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

-- 
David Bott

 

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
locked Re: History Book?

Robert Richardson
 

Curt Tillotson

 

Robert Richardson

Henderson, NC

MP S114.5

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of James Walton
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2022 1:18 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] History Book?

 

If you can find it, Richard Prince's book on the Southern's steam locos is a must-have. Curt Thompson's books on steam and diesel may be worth a look as well.

 

On Fri, Jun 24, 2022, 22:11 Charles Harris <railroads@...> wrote:

Hi Dave

Looks like you have a great knowledge on transport books.

Looking for historical data on  Robert Macy Naval Architect and Engineer.  Wrote a lot of books on ship safety.  I would like to locate a historical history of his career including times at Ingalls Shipbuilding. Also noted for designing the Ingalls 4-S diesel loco in 1946.   This loco probably ran on Southern trackage out of Decatur where the Iron Works associated factory (Birmingham Tank Co), appears to have been located on the Southern Railroad trackage.

 

Thankyou

Charles Harris

 

 

 

 

On 25/06/22 11:03, A&Y Dave in MD wrote:

Clark,

 

Southern Railway: The Road of the Innovators by Burke Davis is like that.   You may also enjoy "The Great Richmond Terminal: Foundation of The Southern Railway" by Maury Klein.  They can be found for reasonable prices in used bookstores (or online at Alibris, Abe's Books, or sometimes Amazon and eBay).

 

Dave

 

Friday, June 24, 2022, 4:30:21 PM, you wrote:

 

Hello, I am interested in reading about the history of Southern Railway. Can anyone suggest a book like this? I did an online service and it mostly brings up illustrated history books, but I am looking for the stories about the operations, management, mergers, etc. Something like a novel, but non-fiction of course. Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

-- 
David Bott

 

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
locked Re: History Book?

James Walton
 

If you can find it, Richard Prince's book on the Southern's steam locos is a must-have. Curt Thompson's books on steam and diesel may be worth a look as well.


On Fri, Jun 24, 2022, 22:11 Charles Harris <railroads@...> wrote:

Hi Dave

Looks like you have a great knowledge on transport books.

Looking for historical data on  Robert Macy Naval Architect and Engineer.  Wrote a lot of books on ship safety.  I would like to locate a historical history of his career including times at Ingalls Shipbuilding. Also noted for designing the Ingalls 4-S diesel loco in 1946.   This loco probably ran on Southern trackage out of Decatur where the Iron Works associated factory (Birmingham Tank Co), appears to have been located on the Southern Railroad trackage.


Thankyou

Charles Harris





On 25/06/22 11:03, A&Y Dave in MD wrote:

Clark,

 

Southern Railway: The Road of the Innovators by Burke Davis is like that.   You may also enjoy "The Great Richmond Terminal: Foundation of The Southern Railway" by Maury Klein.  They can be found for reasonable prices in used bookstores (or online at Alibris, Abe's Books, or sometimes Amazon and eBay).

 

Dave


Friday, June 24, 2022, 4:30:21 PM, you wrote:


Hello, I am interested in reading about the history of Southern Railway. Can anyone suggest a book like this? I did an online service and it mostly brings up illustrated history books, but I am looking for the stories about the operations, management, mergers, etc. Something like a novel, but non-fiction of course. Thanks!






-- 
David Bott


Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
locked Re: History Book?

Charles Harris
 

Hi Dave

Looks like you have a great knowledge on transport books.

Looking for historical data on  Robert Macy Naval Architect and Engineer.  Wrote a lot of books on ship safety.  I would like to locate a historical history of his career including times at Ingalls Shipbuilding. Also noted for designing the Ingalls 4-S diesel loco in 1946.   This loco probably ran on Southern trackage out of Decatur where the Iron Works associated factory (Birmingham Tank Co), appears to have been located on the Southern Railroad trackage.


Thankyou

Charles Harris





On 25/06/22 11:03, A&Y Dave in MD wrote:

Clark,

 

Southern Railway: The Road of the Innovators by Burke Davis is like that.   You may also enjoy "The Great Richmond Terminal: Foundation of The Southern Railway" by Maury Klein.  They can be found for reasonable prices in used bookstores (or online at Alibris, Abe's Books, or sometimes Amazon and eBay).

 

Dave


Friday, June 24, 2022, 4:30:21 PM, you wrote:


Hello, I am interested in reading about the history of Southern Railway. Can anyone suggest a book like this? I did an online service and it mostly brings up illustrated history books, but I am looking for the stories about the operations, management, mergers, etc. Something like a novel, but non-fiction of course. Thanks!
locked Re: History Book?

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Clark,

 

Southern Railway: The Road of the Innovators by Burke Davis is like that.   You may also enjoy "The Great Richmond Terminal: Foundation of The Southern Railway" by Maury Klein.  They can be found for reasonable prices in used bookstores (or online at Alibris, Abe's Books, or sometimes Amazon and eBay).

 

Dave


Friday, June 24, 2022, 4:30:21 PM, you wrote:


Hello, I am interested in reading about the history of Southern Railway. Can anyone suggest a book like this? I did an online service and it mostly brings up illustrated history books, but I am looking for the stories about the operations, management, mergers, etc. Something like a novel, but non-fiction of course. Thanks!
locked History Book?

Clark Barrow
 

Hello, I am interested in reading about the history of Southern Railway. Can anyone suggest a book like this? I did an online service and it mostly brings up illustrated history books, but I am looking for the stories about the operations, management, mergers, etc. Something like a novel, but non-fiction of course. Thanks!
locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Michael Roderick
 

Ike:

That's the information is very helpful just need to get copies of the val maps to be able to put the pieces together. This what will eventually make for a great article or book on the Branch I know that people have written about the Branch really not to the point of what I am looking at.


Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 12:07
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

I’d suggest you look at the Murphy Branch Valuation maps. Virtually anything that had a siding since 1916 will be shown on them.

Ike


On Jun 24, 2022, at 12:02 PM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

Ike:

You are correct google is a tool to use, just as well as using the archive's of the universities in the south that will let you into their libraries via the internet. This is how I have found a lot of information on the Murphy Branch of the Southern Railroad, but it's still hard because it's limited access to the material, and what I am looking for now is historical information as in what businesses where being served on the Branch during the 20-30's Sanborn Maps help but they are not as complete as everyone thinks. So I have to look at the Courthouse's Records and Newspapers and that takes time to research just like at the archives at Chattanooga.


Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad



-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 11:46
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Mike:

I’m not disagreeing with you but unless “working remotely” includes something more than Google searches, how does it add to our knowledge?

Ike


On Jun 24, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

Ike:

True, But you have helped me with a bunch of stuff in the past and steered me in the right direction while going on this hunt for information, but it brings me back to the real question that while we a spread out wee need to be able to work together as a group on this type of project weather we are in Chattanooga or Indiana we all have some skin in the game because we all love this railroad and want to preserve it's history for other's read and understand the good, bad, and ugly of what it was all about and yes their was some things that was done that the railroad was not proud of doing back then but that was what was called business of railroading.

Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 10:23
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

OK…. “can’t get to Chattanooga”……from Indiana!

The Internet is great but I have had people that live in Middle GA and TN tell me “they can’t get to Chattanooga, would I just send them everything in the archives on their question”?

I recognize that a favorite railroad location, museum or archives may be farther away than someone’s PC and keyboard but how is it some folks have made the effort to go places, do research, take photos and make databases (?). Or,…. support that work with more than a Google search?

Ike



On Jun 24, 2022, at 9:47 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

John:

I agree with you with about the digital sharing of information that is the one problem I have about being up here in Indiana and trying to do research on the Murphy Branch and can't get to Chattanooga to look in the archive's at all I have to rely on other member to get the information or go through tons of database's online to find just that one needle in the haystack to start linking the pieces together.

Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Stewart
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 09:37
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Good morning,

I would suggest that the idea of a new book is only one of several options to appeal to enthusiasts of all ages.

Looking forward, why not consider an electronic reference on line? Consider, for example, that this very conversation is taking place online, rather than in print.

There are many examples of online references, both free and subscription or annual fee basis.

One example that comes to mind is steamlocomotives.com - a free reference. One good thing is that it may be updated if users send worthwhile material to the owner for consideration

I bought my copy of Prince’s “Southern” nearly 30 years ago and am proud to have it. But it is a static reference in a digital world.

I enjoy doing historical research on rail and industrial topics. If I had to rely on printed material I would be severely limited as to what I’ve found, learned, and in a small way, shared with others.

There are many things in life that must be “real and in person” - there’s no such thing as good digital Bar-B-Q and a cold drink”

But information and sharing knowledge— the process of learning new things— may, it seems to me, best be shared in real time. A very efficient way to do this is the internet.

John Stewart
Birmingham, AL
www.bhamrails.info
locked Re: SR Flat Car at TVRM

TIM ANDREWS
 

Same car.  Not sure what we will do with it yet.

On Friday, June 24, 2022, 11:35:37 AM EDT, Jason P <gmo1515@...> wrote:


The paint scheme, deck and railing indicate it had previously been a stationary platform. I'm not sure exactly if this is the same car but it looks like the one that had been part of a viewing platform in Irondale AL. It was positioned on the south side of the tracks across from the main viewing platform. It was later moved to a shopping center called Grants Mill Station along with an ex-PRR E8, Southern coach 1076, Southern MoW baggage 90020, as well as a couple other items. The shopping center recently disposed of the railroad equipment and maybe TVRM picked up the flatcar. slapping on a period paint scheme and lettering would make the car useful for freight trains in flim shoots. Maybe that is their plan for it?

-Jason Parham

On 06/24/2022 9:31 AM Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:


Gentlemen,

There is an approximately 40' or 42' steel flat car at TVRM with fishbelly center and side sills riding on Vulcan trucks that are clearly marked as having been cast for or by the Southern. Assuming then that it is a Southern flat car, does anyone know what number series, class, or build date it might be a part of? Here's a few pics taken yesterday:

Thanks!

Dave Queener
locked Re: SR Flat Car at TVRM

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

The July dates, as usual, will be the third Friday and Saturday of the month, July 15 and 16.

The Spacesaver shelving in the L&NHS archives will be installed July 8 and they will be having a work session the same July dates as SRHA and in the future. Anyone in both SRHA and the L&NHS will get a “two-fer” on their trips to Chatt.  Really a “three-fer” considering all going on at TVRM.

Ike


On Jun 24, 2022, at 11:50 AM, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:

Ike,

Good observation.

Yes. I was just down in Chattanooga for three days this week (my denomination's general assembly was held there, so I was able to pop around to TVRM after our last Session on Thursday).

I'm looking forward to spending some time at the Archives.

Can you give me those dates in July?

Dave

On 6/24/2022 11:43 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Dave:

Note the retaining valve between the two rightmost stake pockets. That may tell us which series it is.

Are you going to make it to the next archives work session?

Ike


On Jun 24, 2022, at 11:30 AM, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:

Tim, thanks for chiming in.

Ike, thanks for the very helpful pic and technical data.

My interest in the car, as you might already have guessed, is to draw it up in 3D CAD and then make a laser-cut styrene model in 1:20.3 scale. Of course my CAD work could be the basis for a model in any scale since I always drawing things in 1:1 and then scale the relevant parts down.

Yours,

Dave

On 6/24/2022 11:25 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
PS Here’s a photo of Southern (gondola) 117644, caption was on previous email…

Note the flat car was a WrightTrak kit…. Same flat as under the transfer cab kit. A series of them would make a great Southern welded rail train.

Ike


<Sou%20117644.jpeg>

Begin forwarded message:

From: GEORGE EICHELBERGER <geichelberger@...>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] SR Flat Car at TVRM
Date: June 24, 2022 at 11:19:58 AM EDT

Dave:

Without a good broadside photo, I cannot compare it to the General Arrangement drawings SF-1023 (Sou 115000-115249 and 118000-118749), SF-11118 (Sou 116600-116849 & 118000-118749). Those drawings are so accurate, if there is even a small difference in rivet patterns we can tell which series it is from. (Note these drawings are for both flats or gons. Gondolas of the 1920s were sometimes simply wooden sides on flat cars. Over time, sides were removed from the gons so most finished out their service as flat cars.)

Unless TVRM can find a road number someplace on the car, it would be impossible to determine exactly what the car’s revenue or MoW road number was. Unless we know where the prior owner got the car, it is possible it came from one of the industries around Birmingham, ex Southern or something else with replacement Southern trucks. With so many SR cars scrapped in B’ham, trucks would have been easy to find.

Ike



Sou 117644 is still configured as a low-side gondola on the ACL at Bradenton, FL in 1953. It was one of five hundred built at Lenoir in 1928 under Southern Specification F-97.
N.C.Miller Jr. Photo Neg A486 Bradenton, FL 2-53
Collection of GP Eichelberger


On Jun 24, 2022, at 10:49 AM, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:

Unfortunately when we got the car out of the parting lot in Irondale all previous paint markings were gone.  We will look more closely to see if the number is punched into the metal somewhere but I'm not optimistic.

Tim

On Friday, June 24, 2022, 10:31:10 AM EDT, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:


Gentlemen,

There is an approximately 40' or 42' steel flat car at TVRM with fishbelly center and side sills riding on Vulcan trucks that are clearly marked as having been cast for or by the Southern. Assuming then that it is a Southern flat car, does anyone know what number series, class, or build date it might be a part of? Here's a few pics taken yesterday:

<June 2022 083 - Crop.jpg><June 2022 094 - Crop.jpg><June 2022 095 - Crop.jpg>

Thanks!

Dave Queener

<June 2022 083 - Crop.jpg><June 2022 094 - Crop.jpg><June 2022 095 - Crop.jpg>


-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com  (865) 209-5654

Virus-free. www.avg.com 

-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com  (865) 209-5654
locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

George Eichelberger
 

I’d suggest you look at the Murphy Branch Valuation maps. Virtually anything that had a siding since 1916 will be shown on them.

Ike

On Jun 24, 2022, at 12:02 PM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

Ike:

You are correct google is a tool to use, just as well as using the archive's of the universities in the south that will let you into their libraries via the internet. This is how I have found a lot of information on the Murphy Branch of the Southern Railroad, but it's still hard because it's limited access to the material, and what I am looking for now is historical information as in what businesses where being served on the Branch during the 20-30's Sanborn Maps help but they are not as complete as everyone thinks. So I have to look at the Courthouse's Records and Newspapers and that takes time to research just like at the archives at Chattanooga.


Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad



-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 11:46
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Mike:

I’m not disagreeing with you but unless “working remotely” includes something more than Google searches, how does it add to our knowledge?

Ike


On Jun 24, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

Ike:

True, But you have helped me with a bunch of stuff in the past and steered me in the right direction while going on this hunt for information, but it brings me back to the real question that while we a spread out wee need to be able to work together as a group on this type of project weather we are in Chattanooga or Indiana we all have some skin in the game because we all love this railroad and want to preserve it's history for other's read and understand the good, bad, and ugly of what it was all about and yes their was some things that was done that the railroad was not proud of doing back then but that was what was called business of railroading.

Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 10:23
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

OK…. “can’t get to Chattanooga”……from Indiana!

The Internet is great but I have had people that live in Middle GA and TN tell me “they can’t get to Chattanooga, would I just send them everything in the archives on their question”?

I recognize that a favorite railroad location, museum or archives may be farther away than someone’s PC and keyboard but how is it some folks have made the effort to go places, do research, take photos and make databases (?). Or,…. support that work with more than a Google search?

Ike



On Jun 24, 2022, at 9:47 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

John:

I agree with you with about the digital sharing of information that is the one problem I have about being up here in Indiana and trying to do research on the Murphy Branch and can't get to Chattanooga to look in the archive's at all I have to rely on other member to get the information or go through tons of database's online to find just that one needle in the haystack to start linking the pieces together.

Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Stewart
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 09:37
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Good morning,

I would suggest that the idea of a new book is only one of several options to appeal to enthusiasts of all ages.

Looking forward, why not consider an electronic reference on line? Consider, for example, that this very conversation is taking place online, rather than in print.

There are many examples of online references, both free and subscription or annual fee basis.

One example that comes to mind is steamlocomotives.com - a free reference. One good thing is that it may be updated if users send worthwhile material to the owner for consideration

I bought my copy of Prince’s “Southern” nearly 30 years ago and am proud to have it. But it is a static reference in a digital world.

I enjoy doing historical research on rail and industrial topics. If I had to rely on printed material I would be severely limited as to what I’ve found, learned, and in a small way, shared with others.

There are many things in life that must be “real and in person” - there’s no such thing as good digital Bar-B-Q and a cold drink”

But information and sharing knowledge— the process of learning new things— may, it seems to me, best be shared in real time. A very efficient way to do this is the internet.

John Stewart
Birmingham, AL
www.bhamrails.info
locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Michael Roderick
 

Ike:

You are correct google is a tool to use, just as well as using the archive's of the universities in the south that will let you into their libraries via the internet. This is how I have found a lot of information on the Murphy Branch of the Southern Railroad, but it's still hard because it's limited access to the material, and what I am looking for now is historical information as in what businesses where being served on the Branch during the 20-30's Sanborn Maps help but they are not as complete as everyone thinks. So I have to look at the Courthouse's Records and Newspapers and that takes time to research just like at the archives at Chattanooga.


Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 11:46
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Mike:

I’m not disagreeing with you but unless “working remotely” includes something more than Google searches, how does it add to our knowledge?

Ike


On Jun 24, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

Ike:

True, But you have helped me with a bunch of stuff in the past and steered me in the right direction while going on this hunt for information, but it brings me back to the real question that while we a spread out wee need to be able to work together as a group on this type of project weather we are in Chattanooga or Indiana we all have some skin in the game because we all love this railroad and want to preserve it's history for other's read and understand the good, bad, and ugly of what it was all about and yes their was some things that was done that the railroad was not proud of doing back then but that was what was called business of railroading.

Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 10:23
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

OK…. “can’t get to Chattanooga”……from Indiana!

The Internet is great but I have had people that live in Middle GA and TN tell me “they can’t get to Chattanooga, would I just send them everything in the archives on their question”?

I recognize that a favorite railroad location, museum or archives may be farther away than someone’s PC and keyboard but how is it some folks have made the effort to go places, do research, take photos and make databases (?). Or,…. support that work with more than a Google search?

Ike



On Jun 24, 2022, at 9:47 AM, Michael Roderick <mdrghost@...> wrote:

John:

I agree with you with about the digital sharing of information that is the one problem I have about being up here in Indiana and trying to do research on the Murphy Branch and can't get to Chattanooga to look in the archive's at all I have to rely on other member to get the information or go through tons of database's online to find just that one needle in the haystack to start linking the pieces together.

Mike Roderick
Modeling the Murphy Branch
Of the Southern Railroad

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Stewart
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 09:37
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Good morning,

I would suggest that the idea of a new book is only one of several options to appeal to enthusiasts of all ages.

Looking forward, why not consider an electronic reference on line? Consider, for example, that this very conversation is taking place online, rather than in print.

There are many examples of online references, both free and subscription or annual fee basis.

One example that comes to mind is steamlocomotives.com - a free reference. One good thing is that it may be updated if users send worthwhile material to the owner for consideration

I bought my copy of Prince’s “Southern” nearly 30 years ago and am proud to have it. But it is a static reference in a digital world.

I enjoy doing historical research on rail and industrial topics. If I had to rely on printed material I would be severely limited as to what I’ve found, learned, and in a small way, shared with others.

There are many things in life that must be “real and in person” - there’s no such thing as good digital Bar-B-Q and a cold drink”

But information and sharing knowledge— the process of learning new things— may, it seems to me, best be shared in real time. A very efficient way to do this is the internet.

John Stewart
Birmingham, AL
www.bhamrails.info
locked Re: SR Flat Car at TVRM

Dave Queener
 

Ike,

Good observation.

Yes. I was just down in Chattanooga for three days this week (my denomination's general assembly was held there, so I was able to pop around to TVRM after our last Session on Thursday).

I'm looking forward to spending some time at the Archives.

Can you give me those dates in July?

Dave

On 6/24/2022 11:43 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Dave:

Note the retaining valve between the two rightmost stake pockets. That may tell us which series it is.

Are you going to make it to the next archives work session?

Ike


On Jun 24, 2022, at 11:30 AM, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:

Tim, thanks for chiming in.

Ike, thanks for the very helpful pic and technical data.

My interest in the car, as you might already have guessed, is to draw it up in 3D CAD and then make a laser-cut styrene model in 1:20.3 scale. Of course my CAD work could be the basis for a model in any scale since I always drawing things in 1:1 and then scale the relevant parts down.

Yours,

Dave

On 6/24/2022 11:25 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
PS Here’s a photo of Southern (gondola) 117644, caption was on previous email…

Note the flat car was a WrightTrak kit…. Same flat as under the transfer cab kit. A series of them would make a great Southern welded rail train.

Ike


<Sou%20117644.jpeg>

Begin forwarded message:

From: GEORGE EICHELBERGER <geichelberger@...>
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] SR Flat Car at TVRM
Date: June 24, 2022 at 11:19:58 AM EDT

Dave:

Without a good broadside photo, I cannot compare it to the General Arrangement drawings SF-1023 (Sou 115000-115249 and 118000-118749), SF-11118 (Sou 116600-116849 & 118000-118749). Those drawings are so accurate, if there is even a small difference in rivet patterns we can tell which series it is from. (Note these drawings are for both flats or gons. Gondolas of the 1920s were sometimes simply wooden sides on flat cars. Over time, sides were removed from the gons so most finished out their service as flat cars.)

Unless TVRM can find a road number someplace on the car, it would be impossible to determine exactly what the car’s revenue or MoW road number was. Unless we know where the prior owner got the car, it is possible it came from one of the industries around Birmingham, ex Southern or something else with replacement Southern trucks. With so many SR cars scrapped in B’ham, trucks would have been easy to find.

Ike



Sou 117644 is still configured as a low-side gondola on the ACL at Bradenton, FL in 1953. It was one of five hundred built at Lenoir in 1928 under Southern Specification F-97.
N.C.Miller Jr. Photo Neg A486 Bradenton, FL 2-53
Collection of GP Eichelberger


On Jun 24, 2022, at 10:49 AM, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:

Unfortunately when we got the car out of the parting lot in Irondale all previous paint markings were gone.  We will look more closely to see if the number is punched into the metal somewhere but I'm not optimistic.

Tim

On Friday, June 24, 2022, 10:31:10 AM EDT, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:


Gentlemen,

There is an approximately 40' or 42' steel flat car at TVRM with fishbelly center and side sills riding on Vulcan trucks that are clearly marked as having been cast for or by the Southern. Assuming then that it is a Southern flat car, does anyone know what number series, class, or build date it might be a part of? Here's a few pics taken yesterday:

<June 2022 083 - Crop.jpg><June 2022 094 - Crop.jpg><June 2022 095 - Crop.jpg>

Thanks!

Dave Queener

<June 2022 083 - Crop.jpg><June 2022 094 - Crop.jpg><June 2022 095 - Crop.jpg>


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www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com  (865) 209-5654

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