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locked Prince book reprints - takers??, oh, the Rabbit holes possible here

Cohen Bob
 

All:

Oh, the directions this bigger topic can take so I'll start with the easiest to identify:

What Bill S. stated regarding finding his missing volume of Prince books for $15, THAT was smart and not as lucky as some might want to believe. While much older material, i.e. steam is going begging in many circles since those who best remember are entering their twilight years (yours truly included), today's BUYERS aren't quite as eager as those of 40-60 years ago to part with their dollars for material that is now part of so many downsizer's today.

Look at what has been successful and why: big and easy example - the Morning Sun formula; 128 pages, all color (okay we've got a SR problem here as Bill as gently reminded us of), and ONE v ery specific topic; trackside, a specific photographer, obviously a specific RR, structures ......... okay we know the rest. That said, it works. They have built a better mousetrap and to succeed for something new, we, too shall have to create a better mousetrap also. Oh we, each (well some of us anyway, present company included) have our favorite specific RR if not branch of that RR or specific region. Look at the PRR historical datum: Volume 1 of Churella on the PRR was huge and the nearing completion of Vols. 2 & 3 will also likely be.

Okay, the SR did not have and doesn't have anywhere near the same reach as the PRR, but what works for the goose and also work for the gander. We have the minds to come up with a formula, a mix, that can work, but as stated at the outset, a straight reprint of SR's Prince just doesn't fit the formula. So-o-o-o-o-o-o, maybe something along the lines of not a 250-pager (Prince) but a 750 pager that expands and includes  material he missed and that has come to light since the 1960s and 1970s.

I've tried to psychoanalyze the marketplace as much as I can, and have given at least part of the prescription for proper medication. Now it's up to other specialists to figure the entire formula. This isn't E=MC squared, or the quadratic equation nor the vaccines for COVID-19, but all considerations have to be taken here notwithstanding the aging interest base and changing demographics of the potential interested parties. Hey, SR has been gone now for ......... 40 years, let's neither forget nor let the aging factor elude us before we, too becomes footnotes to history.

end of pulpit.

Bob Cohen
locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

George Eichelberger
 

There are 3,661 items in the SRHA digital archives “steam” photo directory, maybe 150 of those are documents or photographers’ notes on the back of photo prints. Of the 3,500 (MoL) photos, if we do not count the color photos from the Southern fan trip era. I would estimate the percentage of color images at between 1 and 2% with some number of those unacceptable for any kind of publication.

So…may I suggest we don’t presume to think an all-color book of Southern steam photos is possible? Between the color photos that do exist (ignore ones that have been manually colored) and various stencil and paint drawings, and the many superb B&W steam photos (“roster” and in train), the material exists for a new book. BUT….books do not write themselves. Saying “I want” is one thing but who will say “I will” is the question.

I suggest that we produce a special issue of TIES Magazine that incorporates all of the Ed King articles on Southern steam with added photos (and additional types of Southern steam locomotives?) and publish it as as “TRAINS” magazine (Kalmbach publishing) does quite often. It could be self published or done through Kalmbach, White River or whoever is interested.)

Ike

PS The Internet and Internet groups are great for passing ideas and information around but the cash, time and effort investment and “hands on” work needs to be done by someone. If we are talking about just cash, has everyone donated to their favorite railroad historical society, library or museum (railroad or otherwise)?



On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:12 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Everyone would love to see more Southern steam in color. Problem is, Southern dieselized in the early-1950s, and steam was gone before many people got a chance to photograph it. Not so with the N&W, which dieselized in 1960, when steam was rare and everyone was chasing the last strongholds. Another complication is that color film was very slow and very expensive in the 1940s and early 1950s, so what photos you see of late SOU steam are mostly black and white. A third factor is there weren’t many railfans in the South compared to other parts of the country, which explains why there are an inordinate number of images from Southern’s fringes (e.g., Washington, Cincinnati, St. Louis) but not as many from the heart of Southern country. 

I think there are several threads here of what would constitute a popular book of Southern Railway steam: 

* A broader treatment of Southern steam from 1830 to 1953, including background on development, philosophy, etc.
* A description of SOU steam in the context of passenger or freight service 
* An all-color picture book of regular service Southern Railway steam. 

IMHO, this last one would be the easiest to produce and perhaps the most popular, assuming 150-200 good color original images could be found. 

—Bill

On Jun 23, 2022, at 22:22, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:

Take it from me, I’m 14 and am as passionate as can be for Southern Steam, that’s basically the only steam I really get excited for, all I really want to look at if I were to find a photo of an engine would be a color photograph of maybe a Ts-1 or a Ps-4. I think if the book was flashy and colorful it would draw some attention to younger viewers. Imagine a nice green and yellow book with Southern colors all over it, I think that’d sell well.


locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Bill Schafer
 

Everyone would love to see more Southern steam in color. Problem is, Southern dieselized in the early-1950s, and steam was gone before many people got a chance to photograph it. Not so with the N&W, which dieselized in 1960, when steam was rare and everyone was chasing the last strongholds. Another complication is that color film was very slow and very expensive in the 1940s and early 1950s, so what photos you see of late SOU steam are mostly black and white. A third factor is there weren’t many railfans in the South compared to other parts of the country, which explains why there are an inordinate number of images from Southern’s fringes (e.g., Washington, Cincinnati, St. Louis) but not as many from the heart of Southern country. 

I think there are several threads here of what would constitute a popular book of Southern Railway steam: 

* A broader treatment of Southern steam from 1830 to 1953, including background on development, philosophy, etc.
* A description of SOU steam in the context of passenger or freight service 
* An all-color picture book of regular service Southern Railway steam. 

IMHO, this last one would be the easiest to produce and perhaps the most popular, assuming 150-200 good color original images could be found. 

—Bill

On Jun 23, 2022, at 22:22, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:

Take it from me, I’m 14 and am as passionate as can be for Southern Steam, that’s basically the only steam I really get excited for, all I really want to look at if I were to find a photo of an engine would be a color photograph of maybe a Ts-1 or a Ps-4. I think if the book was flashy and colorful it would draw some attention to younger viewers. Imagine a nice green and yellow book with Southern colors all over it, I think that’d sell well.

locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Will Kesler
 

Take it from me, I’m 14 and am as passionate as can be for Southern Steam, that’s basically the only steam I really get excited for, all I really want to look at if I were to find a photo of an engine would be a color photograph of maybe a Ts-1 or a Ps-4. I think if the book was flashy and colorful it would draw some attention to younger viewers. Imagine a nice green and yellow book with Southern colors all over it, I think that’d sell well.
locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Will Kesler
 

Brian, I agree. Something that would catch peoples eye is seeing a nice clear image of a green passenger locomotive in the sunlight. Not many books have enough pictures of that in them which is why the steam section in the Southern Railway in color books have more diesel than steam. I personally would love to see color steam photographs as that is one of the things I love most about southern, whenever you actually see a picture of one in color. Like I was saying I think it would benefit to have a book on steam in color or even just a book on steam. 

Will
locked Re: Two projects" A Southern Steam Book and an archives reading room

C J Wyatt
 

Dave, good analysis.

I don't mean to nitpick, but I believe the last new steam locomotives on the Southern were the Class Ls-2 type 2-8-8-2's, nos. 4051-4058 instead of Ps-4 No. 1409. Though they all were built in 1928, the Baldwin construction numbers suggest that the articulated engines were last.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 09:40:02 PM EDT, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:


Gentlemen,

I agree with Ike that a new Southern steam book could be a significant improvement over the Prince book, and not just in terms of photographic quality, although that in itself would be a plus. Several points come to mind:

(1) History of Development:

The Prince book has about a page of text for each major wheel arrangement. While better than nothing, this does not convey the history of development of steam on the Southern, for instance, why A series 0-6-0s evolved but then gave way to USRA 0-8-0s, why one builder got the bid over another, or what improvements were made over time within particular classes. There is also an economic angle to this story, since Southern did not purchase any new steam after the last Ps-4 in the late 20s, and avoided the Superpower revolution entirely....
locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Brian A. Long
 

Hello All:
 
I am a new member here (I joined in April), and this is my first post here, but I do think I can make a response to Dave's and Jack's questions. Being 31, perhaps I can contribute here.
 
Perhaps it would be a good addition to the historical record to produce a book on a specific topic, but with a section of that book covering steam. For example, one of the gaps I see in the literature on the Southern is a book about the history of Southern passenger service, within which could be a chapter on passenger steam. 
 
I do know of two color books on the subject of Southern passenger trains (Southern Railway Through Passenger Service in Color by Stout and Southern Railway Varnish by Ward), but as the focus is on color photos this largely leaves out much of the steam era.

Brian
locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

George Eichelberger
 

Kyle knows what he is talking about….if you ride behind 4501 at TVRM, chances are he is the Engineer.

Ike
'

On Jun 23, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Kyle Shannon via groups.io <trainsr6900@...> wrote:

I’m 29 years old and see many my age and some significantly younger passionate about Southern steam. I wouldn’t discount that the younger generations do not care.

Kyle




On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 8:50 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Agree. What’s needed is something more appealing to a new audience to instill interest in a new generation.

What would get a 30 year old interested in Southern Railway steam?

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:37 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


The photo reproduction was not the best in any of the original Prince books, and the reprints were abysmal. They were reprinted by the Indiana University Press, IIRC; the books didn’t do their reputation any favors. 

Considering that the demand for steam books seems to be waning, I’d think twice before reprinting any of the Prince books. If you shop around, you may find a used one reasonably priced. A year or two ago I noticed that the ACL book was missing from my set, so instead of turning the house upside down looking for it, I just ordered another one on-line. I found one on Amazon, being sold by the Danbury Railway Museum for something like $15. It was surplus to their collection and the proceeds went to improving the museum (such as UV protection on all their windows). 

—Bill



On Jun 21, 2022, at 12:10, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Gordon and all:

The Prince books, all 10 or 11 of them covering the different railroads of the south that he documented are fantastic resources, even today, the SR included.

Maybe forgotten is that in the early 2000's, four of his titles were reprinted, Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line, NC&St. L, and the L&N. The quality of the reprinted photos I am told made Prince livid and he forbid any others from being done, and yes, the reprinted photos were poor, but I also suspect that the available originals weren't that good either. At the time, the NC&St. L was THE most expensive one and by far, and seldom seen, maybe even less often actual sales taking place. It was a $350-$400 item.

Post reprinted, they all have settled down to around the $40-$60 plus or minus a little area. The other RR's still retain serious interest for the researcher, those of the N&W, RF&P, A&WP, New Georgia, Southern, and the original Norfolk Southern being the most elusive of the bunch. The N&W and RF&P seem to still garner somewhere in the $75-$100 region regularly, maybe a little more, the NS bringing $150 or so if and when you can find them. The Southern one seems to bring $50 plus or minus a little here and there and is among if not THE most popular of the bunch.

Without getting into copyright issues, should one wish to reprint the SR one, that is the marketplace you'll be competing into. I don't know how many original copies Prince made in his various printings of each of the above RR's but for the more popular titles I think it was plenty for the times. Today, my belief is there are sufficient quantity out there for current demand, my opinion, so into the hornet's nest, does one make the commitment of how many thousands of dollars up front money to sell ??????????????? how many of the reprint?

When the 4 reprinted titles were done nearly 20 years ago, as I recall, they were available at the time for $40 each.

What's the risk/reward ratio for a new reprint albeit one that wasn't done back then, and is there enough pent-up demand for another one? My opinion is probably not as the current supply out there fits most needs for the moment. How long that may continue is anyone's best guess, but my opinion is, likely not worth the investment at this time.

My 2 cents worth.

Bob Cohen


locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Brian A. Long
 

Hello All:

I am a new member here (I joined in April), and this is my first post here, but I do think I can make a response to Dave's and Jack's questions. Being 31, perhaps I can contribute here.

Perhaps it would be a good addition to the historical record to produce a book on a specific topic, but with a section of that book covering steam. For example, one of the gaps I see in the literature on the Southern is a book about the history of Southern passenger service, within which could be a chapter on passenger steam. 

I do know of two color books on the subject of Southern passenger trains (Southern Railway Through Passenger Service in Color by Stout and Southern Railway Varnish by Ward), but as the focus is on color photos this largely leaves out much of the steam era.

Brian A. Long
locked Re: Two projects" A Southern Steam Book and an archives reading room

Dave Queener
 

Gentlemen,

I agree with Ike that a new Southern steam book could be a significant improvement over the Prince book, and not just in terms of photographic quality, although that in itself would be a plus. Several points come to mind:

(1) History of Development:

The Prince book has about a page of text for each major wheel arrangement. While better than nothing, this does not convey the history of development of steam on the Southern, for instance, why A series 0-6-0s evolved but then gave way to USRA 0-8-0s, why one builder got the bid over another, or what improvements were made over time within particular classes. There is also an economic angle to this story, since Southern did not purchase any new steam after the last Ps-4 in the late 20s, and avoided the Superpower revolution entirely. Was this hind-bound convervativism, or a shrewd move on the part of Southern's money-managers who kept the road solvent in the midst of the Great Depression and after the fiasco with the M&O acquisition. This would be a story in itself, and it was not for lack of the major builders continually hawking their products to Southern's Mechanical Department. I suspect the SRHA may have some fascinating data in the correspondence files between the builders and Southern's Mechanical department. The answers are probably in the preserved correspondence. What about it, Ike?

(2) Variations in Classes:

Related to the history of development would be some treatment of how different shops modified Southern engines to have a "Coster" look or a "Pegram" look. It may be an esoteric subject to some, but fascinating material to the model builder / enthusiast. The SRHA's Ties magazine ran a series of articles more than a decade ago on this very sort of minutiae with respect to the K class 2-8-0s and the Ss and Ss-1 2-10-2s. I expect there are other similar resources available.

(3) Technical Data:

The Prince book has rosters and build dates, which are wonderfully helpful, but only offers the diagrams for most of the major classes of Southern steam. A useful addition would be mechanical drawings, at least elevation and section views, for representative members of the main classes of Southern steam. The good news is that 1000s of Southern steam drawings still exist in the Bill Purdie collection now housed by the Southeastern Railway Museum in Duluth. The Purdie collection of steam drawings greatly out numbers that owned by the SRHA, which makes sense when you think about it, since he was Southern's last Master Mechanic--Steam and was apparently collecting drawings from many of Southern's shops as they were closing down or being re-purposed. I have seen some of the material, and it is stunning.

Perhaps our friends at both the SRHA and the SER could work together to make some of this material available in a definitive Southern Steam book. These sorts of materials would not have been available to Mr. Prince, but thanks to the efforts of dedicated archivists such as Ike and the curators at the SER, what was once inaccessible and unknown have now become available to a new generation of writers and their readers.

Best Regards to all,

Dave Queener
Knoxville, Tennessee


On 6/23/2022 12:47 PM, George Eichelberger wrote:
With all of the Southern Railway Steam photos and documentation in the SRHA archives, I believe a "better" book could be produced rather than re-printing Prince's book. Now with the network connections SRHA has in place and a huge amount of networked storage available, organizing a group of people to write and produce a book is certainly possible. I have no idea about the level of potential authors' interest or the market for such a book. I DO think a "steam" book would be of interest if it was more than a collection of photos. (The pages from one of the SR diesel books now being put together I posted some time ago are an example of the "more than photos" concept.) If anyone is interested in participating, send an email to archives@....

And:
Now that we are getting the SRHA archives building organized, we can clean out and equip one of the rooms as a "reading/research room". Dimensions are about 12' x 14' with easy access to the archives "stacks" and other rooms. A comfortable reading chair and sofa, reading lights, table and office style chair (or two), a wall mounted video screen/terminal that can be used for videos and scanned documents or photos and a desktop computer for the screen and an attached scanner could all be included.

What is needed is for someone to buy the items and help set the room up. I ask again....any takers? If anyone helps us do a first-class job, "naming rights" for the room are available. (That name will join the (not yet formally named) "Jim Wrinn SRHA Photo Collections Room" that will be dedicated during the joint SRHA-L&NHS-RPM convention and meet at TVRM 9-30/10-1. More on that at the dedication.)  Archives@... if you are interested.

Ike 
-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com  (865) 209-5654

Virus-free. www.avg.com

locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Agree they care, but how to direct that passion?  I’m NOT talking a video game. I respect the generations more than that. But is a printed book the best way to fuel interest?

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Jun 23, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Kyle Shannon via groups.io <trainsr6900@...> wrote:

 I’m 29 years old and see many my age and some significantly younger passionate about Southern steam. I wouldn’t discount that the younger generations do not care.

Kyle




On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 8:50 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Agree. What’s needed is something more appealing to a new audience to instill interest in a new generation.

What would get a 30 year old interested in Southern Railway steam?

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:37 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


The photo reproduction was not the best in any of the original Prince books, and the reprints were abysmal. They were reprinted by the Indiana University Press, IIRC; the books didn’t do their reputation any favors. 

Considering that the demand for steam books seems to be waning, I’d think twice before reprinting any of the Prince books. If you shop around, you may find a used one reasonably priced. A year or two ago I noticed that the ACL book was missing from my set, so instead of turning the house upside down looking for it, I just ordered another one on-line. I found one on Amazon, being sold by the Danbury Railway Museum for something like $15. It was surplus to their collection and the proceeds went to improving the museum (such as UV protection on all their windows). 

—Bill



On Jun 21, 2022, at 12:10, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Gordon and all:

The Prince books, all 10 or 11 of them covering the different railroads of the south that he documented are fantastic resources, even today, the SR included.

Maybe forgotten is that in the early 2000's, four of his titles were reprinted, Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line, NC&St. L, and the L&N. The quality of the reprinted photos I am told made Prince livid and he forbid any others from being done, and yes, the reprinted photos were poor, but I also suspect that the available originals weren't that good either. At the time, the NC&St. L was THE most expensive one and by far, and seldom seen, maybe even less often actual sales taking place. It was a $350-$400 item.

Post reprinted, they all have settled down to around the $40-$60 plus or minus a little area. The other RR's still retain serious interest for the researcher, those of the N&W, RF&P, A&WP, New Georgia, Southern, and the original Norfolk Southern being the most elusive of the bunch. The N&W and RF&P seem to still garner somewhere in the $75-$100 region regularly, maybe a little more, the NS bringing $150 or so if and when you can find them. The Southern one seems to bring $50 plus or minus a little here and there and is among if not THE most popular of the bunch.

Without getting into copyright issues, should one wish to reprint the SR one, that is the marketplace you'll be competing into. I don't know how many original copies Prince made in his various printings of each of the above RR's but for the more popular titles I think it was plenty for the times. Today, my belief is there are sufficient quantity out there for current demand, my opinion, so into the hornet's nest, does one make the commitment of how many thousands of dollars up front money to sell ??????????????? how many of the reprint?

When the 4 reprinted titles were done nearly 20 years ago, as I recall, they were available at the time for $40 each.

What's the risk/reward ratio for a new reprint albeit one that wasn't done back then, and is there enough pent-up demand for another one? My opinion is probably not as the current supply out there fits most needs for the moment. How long that may continue is anyone's best guess, but my opinion is, likely not worth the investment at this time.

My 2 cents worth.

Bob Cohen

locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Bill Schafer
 

I guess I mean that if a new book on Southern steam is to succeed, it shouldn’t be a clone of the Prince books. It fwill have to have better photo reproduction, be more anecdotal/less analytical, and be “sexier” than the dry-as-dust Prince books. The more time goes on, the more good stuff comes out of the woodwork, and it would be a shame if it is not appreciated. For example, this is the cover of the 2022-2 TIES, which is at the printer now. I don’t know about you, but I think this cover photo is stunning (and you should see the stuff inside). 

—Bill


On Jun 23, 2022, at 20:59, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Bill, you scored with the ACL book.

I agree that the trends and economics argue against a reprint / revised edition of the Southern Railway book. But does that also mean that any new book on Southern steam, other than a picture book, is doomed?

Jack

On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 08:38:08 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


The photo reproduction was not the best in any of the original Prince books, and the reprints were abysmal. They were reprinted by the Indiana University Press, IIRC; the books didn’t do their reputation any favors. 

Considering that the demand for steam books seems to be waning, I’d think twice before reprinting any of the Prince books. If you shop around, you may find a used one reasonably priced. A year or two ago I noticed that the ACL book was missing from my set, so instead of turning the house upside down looking for it, I just ordered another one on-line. I found one on Amazon, being sold by the Danbury Railway Museum for something like $15. It was surplus to their collection and the proceeds went to improving the museum (such as UV protection on all their windows). 

—Bill



On Jun 21, 2022, at 12:10, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Gordon and all:

The Prince books, all 10 or 11 of them covering the different railroads of the south that he documented are fantastic resources, even today, the SR included.

Maybe forgotten is that in the early 2000's, four of his titles were reprinted, Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line, NC&St. L, and the L&N. The quality of the reprinted photos I am told made Prince livid and he forbid any others from being done, and yes, the reprinted photos were poor, but I also suspect that the available originals weren't that good either. At the time, the NC&St. L was THE most expensive one and by far, and seldom seen, maybe even less often actual sales taking place. It was a $350-$400 item.

Post reprinted, they all have settled down to around the $40-$60 plus or minus a little area. The other RR's still retain serious interest for the researcher, those of the N&W, RF&P, A&WP, New Georgia, Southern, and the original Norfolk Southern being the most elusive of the bunch. The N&W and RF&P seem to still garner somewhere in the $75-$100 region regularly, maybe a little more, the NS bringing $150 or so if and when you can find them. The Southern one seems to bring $50 plus or minus a little here and there and is among if not THE most popular of the bunch.

Without getting into copyright issues, should one wish to reprint the SR one, that is the marketplace you'll be competing into. I don't know how many original copies Prince made in his various printings of each of the above RR's but for the more popular titles I think it was plenty for the times. Today, my belief is there are sufficient quantity out there for current demand, my opinion, so into the hornet's nest, does one make the commitment of how many thousands of dollars up front money to sell ??????????????? how many of the reprint?

When the 4 reprinted titles were done nearly 20 years ago, as I recall, they were available at the time for $40 each.

What's the risk/reward ratio for a new reprint albeit one that wasn't done back then, and is there enough pent-up demand for another one? My opinion is probably not as the current supply out there fits most needs for the moment. How long that may continue is anyone's best guess, but my opinion is, likely not worth the investment at this time.

My 2 cents worth.

Bob Cohen


locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Kyle Shannon
 

I’m 29 years old and see many my age and some significantly younger passionate about Southern steam. I wouldn’t discount that the younger generations do not care.

Kyle




On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 8:50 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Agree. What’s needed is something more appealing to a new audience to instill interest in a new generation.

What would get a 30 year old interested in Southern Railway steam?

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:37 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


The photo reproduction was not the best in any of the original Prince books, and the reprints were abysmal. They were reprinted by the Indiana University Press, IIRC; the books didn’t do their reputation any favors. 

Considering that the demand for steam books seems to be waning, I’d think twice before reprinting any of the Prince books. If you shop around, you may find a used one reasonably priced. A year or two ago I noticed that the ACL book was missing from my set, so instead of turning the house upside down looking for it, I just ordered another one on-line. I found one on Amazon, being sold by the Danbury Railway Museum for something like $15. It was surplus to their collection and the proceeds went to improving the museum (such as UV protection on all their windows). 

—Bill



On Jun 21, 2022, at 12:10, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Gordon and all:

The Prince books, all 10 or 11 of them covering the different railroads of the south that he documented are fantastic resources, even today, the SR included.

Maybe forgotten is that in the early 2000's, four of his titles were reprinted, Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line, NC&St. L, and the L&N. The quality of the reprinted photos I am told made Prince livid and he forbid any others from being done, and yes, the reprinted photos were poor, but I also suspect that the available originals weren't that good either. At the time, the NC&St. L was THE most expensive one and by far, and seldom seen, maybe even less often actual sales taking place. It was a $350-$400 item.

Post reprinted, they all have settled down to around the $40-$60 plus or minus a little area. The other RR's still retain serious interest for the researcher, those of the N&W, RF&P, A&WP, New Georgia, Southern, and the original Norfolk Southern being the most elusive of the bunch. The N&W and RF&P seem to still garner somewhere in the $75-$100 region regularly, maybe a little more, the NS bringing $150 or so if and when you can find them. The Southern one seems to bring $50 plus or minus a little here and there and is among if not THE most popular of the bunch.

Without getting into copyright issues, should one wish to reprint the SR one, that is the marketplace you'll be competing into. I don't know how many original copies Prince made in his various printings of each of the above RR's but for the more popular titles I think it was plenty for the times. Today, my belief is there are sufficient quantity out there for current demand, my opinion, so into the hornet's nest, does one make the commitment of how many thousands of dollars up front money to sell ??????????????? how many of the reprint?

When the 4 reprinted titles were done nearly 20 years ago, as I recall, they were available at the time for $40 each.

What's the risk/reward ratio for a new reprint albeit one that wasn't done back then, and is there enough pent-up demand for another one? My opinion is probably not as the current supply out there fits most needs for the moment. How long that may continue is anyone's best guess, but my opinion is, likely not worth the investment at this time.

My 2 cents worth.

Bob Cohen

locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

C J Wyatt
 

Bill, you scored with the ACL book.

I agree that the trends and economics argue against a reprint / revised edition of the Southern Railway book. But does that also mean that any new book on Southern steam, other than a picture book, is doomed?

Jack

On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 08:38:08 PM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


The photo reproduction was not the best in any of the original Prince books, and the reprints were abysmal. They were reprinted by the Indiana University Press, IIRC; the books didn’t do their reputation any favors. 

Considering that the demand for steam books seems to be waning, I’d think twice before reprinting any of the Prince books. If you shop around, you may find a used one reasonably priced. A year or two ago I noticed that the ACL book was missing from my set, so instead of turning the house upside down looking for it, I just ordered another one on-line. I found one on Amazon, being sold by the Danbury Railway Museum for something like $15. It was surplus to their collection and the proceeds went to improving the museum (such as UV protection on all their windows). 

—Bill



On Jun 21, 2022, at 12:10, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Gordon and all:

The Prince books, all 10 or 11 of them covering the different railroads of the south that he documented are fantastic resources, even today, the SR included.

Maybe forgotten is that in the early 2000's, four of his titles were reprinted, Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line, NC&St. L, and the L&N. The quality of the reprinted photos I am told made Prince livid and he forbid any others from being done, and yes, the reprinted photos were poor, but I also suspect that the available originals weren't that good either. At the time, the NC&St. L was THE most expensive one and by far, and seldom seen, maybe even less often actual sales taking place. It was a $350-$400 item.

Post reprinted, they all have settled down to around the $40-$60 plus or minus a little area. The other RR's still retain serious interest for the researcher, those of the N&W, RF&P, A&WP, New Georgia, Southern, and the original Norfolk Southern being the most elusive of the bunch. The N&W and RF&P seem to still garner somewhere in the $75-$100 region regularly, maybe a little more, the NS bringing $150 or so if and when you can find them. The Southern one seems to bring $50 plus or minus a little here and there and is among if not THE most popular of the bunch.

Without getting into copyright issues, should one wish to reprint the SR one, that is the marketplace you'll be competing into. I don't know how many original copies Prince made in his various printings of each of the above RR's but for the more popular titles I think it was plenty for the times. Today, my belief is there are sufficient quantity out there for current demand, my opinion, so into the hornet's nest, does one make the commitment of how many thousands of dollars up front money to sell ??????????????? how many of the reprint?

When the 4 reprinted titles were done nearly 20 years ago, as I recall, they were available at the time for $40 each.

What's the risk/reward ratio for a new reprint albeit one that wasn't done back then, and is there enough pent-up demand for another one? My opinion is probably not as the current supply out there fits most needs for the moment. How long that may continue is anyone's best guess, but my opinion is, likely not worth the investment at this time.

My 2 cents worth.

Bob Cohen

locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Agree. What’s needed is something more appealing to a new audience to instill interest in a new generation.

What would get a 30 year old interested in Southern Railway steam?

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:37 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

The photo reproduction was not the best in any of the original Prince books, and the reprints were abysmal. They were reprinted by the Indiana University Press, IIRC; the books didn’t do their reputation any favors. 

Considering that the demand for steam books seems to be waning, I’d think twice before reprinting any of the Prince books. If you shop around, you may find a used one reasonably priced. A year or two ago I noticed that the ACL book was missing from my set, so instead of turning the house upside down looking for it, I just ordered another one on-line. I found one on Amazon, being sold by the Danbury Railway Museum for something like $15. It was surplus to their collection and the proceeds went to improving the museum (such as UV protection on all their windows). 

—Bill



On Jun 21, 2022, at 12:10, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Gordon and all:

The Prince books, all 10 or 11 of them covering the different railroads of the south that he documented are fantastic resources, even today, the SR included.

Maybe forgotten is that in the early 2000's, four of his titles were reprinted, Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line, NC&St. L, and the L&N. The quality of the reprinted photos I am told made Prince livid and he forbid any others from being done, and yes, the reprinted photos were poor, but I also suspect that the available originals weren't that good either. At the time, the NC&St. L was THE most expensive one and by far, and seldom seen, maybe even less often actual sales taking place. It was a $350-$400 item.

Post reprinted, they all have settled down to around the $40-$60 plus or minus a little area. The other RR's still retain serious interest for the researcher, those of the N&W, RF&P, A&WP, New Georgia, Southern, and the original Norfolk Southern being the most elusive of the bunch. The N&W and RF&P seem to still garner somewhere in the $75-$100 region regularly, maybe a little more, the NS bringing $150 or so if and when you can find them. The Southern one seems to bring $50 plus or minus a little here and there and is among if not THE most popular of the bunch.

Without getting into copyright issues, should one wish to reprint the SR one, that is the marketplace you'll be competing into. I don't know how many original copies Prince made in his various printings of each of the above RR's but for the more popular titles I think it was plenty for the times. Today, my belief is there are sufficient quantity out there for current demand, my opinion, so into the hornet's nest, does one make the commitment of how many thousands of dollars up front money to sell ??????????????? how many of the reprint?

When the 4 reprinted titles were done nearly 20 years ago, as I recall, they were available at the time for $40 each.

What's the risk/reward ratio for a new reprint albeit one that wasn't done back then, and is there enough pent-up demand for another one? My opinion is probably not as the current supply out there fits most needs for the moment. How long that may continue is anyone's best guess, but my opinion is, likely not worth the investment at this time.

My 2 cents worth.

Bob Cohen

locked Re: Southern Railway Prince book reprints - takers??

Bill Schafer
 

The photo reproduction was not the best in any of the original Prince books, and the reprints were abysmal. They were reprinted by the Indiana University Press, IIRC; the books didn’t do their reputation any favors. 

Considering that the demand for steam books seems to be waning, I’d think twice before reprinting any of the Prince books. If you shop around, you may find a used one reasonably priced. A year or two ago I noticed that the ACL book was missing from my set, so instead of turning the house upside down looking for it, I just ordered another one on-line. I found one on Amazon, being sold by the Danbury Railway Museum for something like $15. It was surplus to their collection and the proceeds went to improving the museum (such as UV protection on all their windows). 

—Bill



On Jun 21, 2022, at 12:10, Cohen Bob via groups.io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Gordon and all:

The Prince books, all 10 or 11 of them covering the different railroads of the south that he documented are fantastic resources, even today, the SR included.

Maybe forgotten is that in the early 2000's, four of his titles were reprinted, Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line, NC&St. L, and the L&N. The quality of the reprinted photos I am told made Prince livid and he forbid any others from being done, and yes, the reprinted photos were poor, but I also suspect that the available originals weren't that good either. At the time, the NC&St. L was THE most expensive one and by far, and seldom seen, maybe even less often actual sales taking place. It was a $350-$400 item.

Post reprinted, they all have settled down to around the $40-$60 plus or minus a little area. The other RR's still retain serious interest for the researcher, those of the N&W, RF&P, A&WP, New Georgia, Southern, and the original Norfolk Southern being the most elusive of the bunch. The N&W and RF&P seem to still garner somewhere in the $75-$100 region regularly, maybe a little more, the NS bringing $150 or so if and when you can find them. The Southern one seems to bring $50 plus or minus a little here and there and is among if not THE most popular of the bunch.

Without getting into copyright issues, should one wish to reprint the SR one, that is the marketplace you'll be competing into. I don't know how many original copies Prince made in his various printings of each of the above RR's but for the more popular titles I think it was plenty for the times. Today, my belief is there are sufficient quantity out there for current demand, my opinion, so into the hornet's nest, does one make the commitment of how many thousands of dollars up front money to sell ??????????????? how many of the reprint?

When the 4 reprinted titles were done nearly 20 years ago, as I recall, they were available at the time for $40 each.

What's the risk/reward ratio for a new reprint albeit one that wasn't done back then, and is there enough pent-up demand for another one? My opinion is probably not as the current supply out there fits most needs for the moment. How long that may continue is anyone's best guess, but my opinion is, likely not worth the investment at this time.

My 2 cents worth.

Bob Cohen

locked Two projects" A Southern Steam Book and an archives reading room

George Eichelberger
 

With all of the Southern Railway Steam photos and documentation in the SRHA archives, I believe a "better" book could be produced rather than re-printing Prince's book. Now with the network connections SRHA has in place and a huge amount of networked storage available, organizing a group of people to write and produce a book is certainly possible. I have no idea about the level of potential authors' interest or the market for such a book. I DO think a "steam" book would be of interest if it was more than a collection of photos. (The pages from one of the SR diesel books now being put together I posted some time ago are an example of the "more than photos" concept.) If anyone is interested in participating, send an email to archives@....

And:
Now that we are getting the SRHA archives building organized, we can clean out and equip one of the rooms as a "reading/research room". Dimensions are about 12' x 14' with easy access to the archives "stacks" and other rooms. A comfortable reading chair and sofa, reading lights, table and office style chair (or two), a wall mounted video screen/terminal that can be used for videos and scanned documents or photos and a desktop computer for the screen and an attached scanner could all be included.

What is needed is for someone to buy the items and help set the room up. I ask again....any takers? If anyone helps us do a first-class job, "naming rights" for the room are available. (That name will join the (not yet formally named) "Jim Wrinn SRHA Photo Collections Room" that will be dedicated during the joint SRHA-L&NHS-RPM convention and meet at TVRM 9-30/10-1. More on that at the dedication.)  Archives@... if you are interested.

Ike
locked Re: SRHA steam documentation

George Eichelberger
 

Or sold, there are multiple documents on both over the years in the archives.

Ike



On Jun 23, 2022, at 10:25 AM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:

Are those list of when locomotives were dismantled?

locked Re: SRHA steam documentation

Will Kesler
 

Are those list of when locomotives were dismantled?
locked Re: [ModelingTheSouthern] RE Prince book reprints

Michael Roderick
 

Ike:

 

I would I like to help out on this project but like most of our members we away from Chattanooga. I plan on being in Chattanooga for the Convention in September. I live in Indiana which my help with trying to get some of the original stuff IU in Bloomington I do have friends that can help me from IU in getting some access to the files that they used. It maybe a starting point to work with.

 

Mike Roderick

Modeling the Murphy Branch

Of the Southern Railroad  

 

From: ModelingTheSouthern@SouthernRailway.groups.io <ModelingTheSouthern@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 18:13
To: ModelingTheSouthern@southernrailway.groups.io; main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ModelingTheSouthern] RE Prince book reprints

 

Any takers?

 

Ike

 

 

On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:57 PM, George Eichelberger <GEICHELBERGER@...> wrote:

 

Jack:

 

If someone (several people?) want to take on the project, I think it’d be an excellent idea! Some things to consider….

 

The book was written in pre-word processing days so there is not a soft copy version of the text. I have not looked through the Prince materials file cabinet in a long time but I recall there are quite a few of the text and diagram sections in their offset printing form. (Looks like black letters on a transparent background, almost like a negative that was “burned” on a photo sensitive printing plate using a very bright (carbon arc?) light. Those could be scanned and placed on a page as part of a PDF for printing. (Worked in a print shop some in the early 60s. Everything was done with offset printing or Linotype (hot metal). The pages of an existing book can be scanned, OCRd and set if desk top publishing software (I use Adobe Creative Suite @ $20/mo for a Macintosh.)

 

There may be photos of the diagram book pages but it would be easier to simply make new scans..I expect we have all of the diagram books he used..or close to it.

 

No one would make photos for publication by making plates by taking photos of photos through a fine screen as was done. I seem to remember the “resolution” of the screen used was about 150 lines per inch. (Photos for a newspaper were done at lower screen rates but I don’t remember the number…75?. The good news is that my estimate of 80-90% of the photos used are in Chattanooga. (Prince, like many authors of the period, simply borrowed photo prints, made the screen prints and returned the photos to their owners.) There are photis in the Prince files that were not returned, probably made from extra prints. We also have many of the same photos in the KImsey, Ben Roberts, Dale Roberts, and other collections.

 

Probably doable but needing people to do the work. SRHA has all of the technology needed plus a 142TB of network accessible memory that can be accessed by many people in a collaborative effort. (Not everyone would ever have to do to the archives and could work remotely.) Initial printing costs would have to come form donations, SRHA does not have a large “publications” budget but it could (?) be done.

 

Ike

 

 

On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:56 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

 

Since the SRHA has the intellectual property rights, what about a revised Prince edition? I fear by the time a brand new Southern steam book is written, most potential readers will be gone. 

 

Jack Wyatt

 

On Saturday, June 18, 2022, 05:08:59 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

 

 

Let me add one more "thing".....

I expect SRHA now has the largest collection of Southern steam loco negatives and prints anywhere...ever. (Including maybe 80-90% of the photos used in both the Prince book and Southern Steam Power). Plus, we have accumulated many steam ("SL" prefix and earlier) drawings to add the the significant collection TVRM has.

If someone was serious (!!) about writing a book on Southern Steam, using mostly original negatives, come to one of the Archives work sessions and see what we have. (If not a work session, come to the joint SRHA/L&NHS/RPM at TVRM 9-30/10-1).

Ike

 

 
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