Date   

locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

Hi Charles, I'll let you do the searching because you may come across something else you like while you are doing it:


Jack


On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 02:45:24 AM EDT, Charles Harris <railroads@...> wrote:


Hi
In above post there is mention of     "  I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. "

Is someone able to come up with the issues that featured those items, and where I may locate copies of the articles.
Thankyou
Charles


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

Charles Harris
 

Hi

Fitting in to this discussion is the Ingalls 4-S, built 1946.   Construction of the loco was part done in AL Bham and Decatur etc and part in MS. A lot of testing done in .AL.   I note that Birmingham Tank (part of Ingalls Iron Works) had a site adjacent to the Southern Railway trackage, possibly some work done there.  Must be some records of testing using Southern?
The on 21 March 1946 there was a demonstration of the loco held by Southern and Southwestern Railway Club at terminal station in Atlanta.  Who has more info on this demo.   Anything Ingalls 4-S in fact.

Thanks
Charles Harris


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

Charles Harris
 

Hi
In above post there is mention of     "  I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. "

Is someone able to come up with the issues that featured those items, and where I may locate copies of the articles.
Thankyou
Charles


locked Re: Ms-7 locomotives

C J Wyatt
 

I managed to drop my text from the message transmitting the Erie RR's diagram. I have not found a Southern Railway diagram for the Ms-7 so I thought that some of you would like to see the Erie's.

Jack


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

Very true - though perhaps Tony Koester and his concept of 'selective compression' may be able to help. That is, cut out the things you don't need to focus on showing a version of what you do need.


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 20:39 A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:
“Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.”. 
That’s likely an understatement.

Railroads are HUGE.  The yard in Mount Airy, NC in HO scale is 27 feet long and more than 6 feet wide. That’s the end of of a small short line/branch. Birmingham would fill a basement AFTER selective compression.

But you could show off a lot of interesting Southern equipment!

I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. We need to find someone to write a more historical series on Birmingham. Might be the way to learn enough to model it well. Sort of how I got into writing the A&Y article with Kevin.  I recommend it as a learning exercise.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Sep 20, 2021, at 8:17 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.


locked Re: Ms-7 locomotives

C J Wyatt
 



On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 05:35:21 PM EDT, Brent Greer <studegator@...> wrote:


The most recent post on the locomotives of the Atlanta-Birmingham line caught my attention.

I was not aware of the Ms-7 class of engones acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders.  

Can anyone share photos of these in Southern Ry. service that I might use for modeling purposes?

Sincere thanks, 
Brent


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

A&Y Dave in MD
 

“Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.”. 
That’s likely an understatement.

Railroads are HUGE.  The yard in Mount Airy, NC in HO scale is 27 feet long and more than 6 feet wide. That’s the end of of a small short line/branch. Birmingham would fill a basement AFTER selective compression.

But you could show off a lot of interesting Southern equipment!

I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. We need to find someone to write a more historical series on Birmingham. Might be the way to learn enough to model it well. Sort of how I got into writing the A&Y article with Kevin.  I recommend it as a learning exercise.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Sep 20, 2021, at 8:17 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

In my recent reply, I failed to say early diesel switcher assignments, but Jason is right - a lot of steam switchers were still operating in the mid-forties.

Jack

On Monday, September 20, 2021, 08:02:55 PM EDT, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


0-8-0s and 2-8-0s were common in the yards in both Atlanta and Birmingham. Birmingham also had some 0-6-0s still lingering. 

I Birmingham the Southern interchanged with just about everyone. You had the Frisco, IC, CG, AB&C, L&N, SAL (limited), and all the industrial roads. Not far from Birmingham to the north and west you also had the Columbus and Greenville on the old Georgia Pacific. 

Jason Greene 



locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

You're welcome, James.

Southern Railway kept a good list of early switcher assignments, so basically name a date. Of course tackling modeling a major terminal in anything less than a club-sized layout is a challenge. The yard in Atlanta was huge and the trains from Birmingham ran with the trains from Chattanooga, east of Austell. In Birmingham, the AGS subsidiary and Southern Railway proper both had their own yards. I do seem to recall that the AGS yard did originate and receive some trains with Atlanta traffic. Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards. 

The era was during the time of ICC regulation, so everyone interchanged with everyone to a greater or lesser extent depending on how the traffic was routed. The shipper generally selected a route. If the shipper left the route blank (open routing) then the originating railroad could fill in the route.

I don't know if you have seen this website. but there is a wealth of information on it:


Here is another view of the overall map with a white background, enlargeable with good resolution:


If you can find a copy of the Birmingham-Bessemer Terminal Area Co-ordinating Committe Report which the maps were part of, you can find detailed information about the railroad operations and facilities in the area circa 1935, which probably did not change that much into the late forties.

Any other railroads which you are interested in?

Jack Wyatt

In particular, take a look at the 1935 rail maps.

On Monday, September 20, 2021, 06:51:02 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Thanks all, what you've shown has really helped. 

Does anyone know what switchers the Southern tended to use in their Atlanta and Birmingham yards at this time?

Does anyone know what companies the Southern interchanged with in Bham? I know the Southern and the Frisco were on good terms, so they certainly had an interchange. 



locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

Jason Greene
 

0-8-0s and 2-8-0s were common in the yards in both Atlanta and Birmingham. Birmingham also had some 0-6-0s still lingering. 

I Birmingham the Southern interchanged with just about everyone. You had the Frisco, IC, CG, AB&C, L&N, SAL (limited), and all the industrial roads. Not far from Birmingham to the north and west you also had the Columbus and Greenville on the old Georgia Pacific. 

Jason Greene 

On Sep 20, 2021, at 6:28 PM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Thanks all, what you've shown has really helped. 

Does anyone know what switchers the Southern tended to use in their Atlanta and Birmingham yards at this time?

Does anyone know what companies the Southern interchanged with in Bham? I know the Southern and the Frisco were on good terms, so they certainly had an interchange. 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 15:44 Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <abridgemansutton@...> wrote:
Sorry, but apparently Mr Brain and Mr Memory were both having bad days at the office. for "1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2)"  please read "1482" and forget the bit about moving around. 

Aidrian   

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:07 PM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via groups.io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

Thanks all, what you've shown has really helped. 

Does anyone know what switchers the Southern tended to use in their Atlanta and Birmingham yards at this time?

Does anyone know what companies the Southern interchanged with in Bham? I know the Southern and the Frisco were on good terms, so they certainly had an interchange. 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 15:44 Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <abridgemansutton@...> wrote:
Sorry, but apparently Mr Brain and Mr Memory were both having bad days at the office. for "1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2)"  please read "1482" and forget the bit about moving around. 

Aidrian   

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:07 PM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via groups.io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Sorry, but apparently Mr Brain and Mr Memory were both having bad days at the office. for "1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2)"  please read "1482" and forget the bit about moving around. 

Aidrian   

Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:07 PM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via groups.io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: Ms-7 locomotives

C J Wyatt
 

Brent, here is one to get you started. Birmingham 8/25/1946.

Jack

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 05:35:21 PM EDT, Brent Greer <studegator@...> wrote:


The most recent post on the locomotives of the Atlanta-Birmingham line caught my attention.

I was not aware of the Ms-7 class of engones acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders.  

Can anyone share photos of these in Southern Ry. service that I might use for modeling purposes?

Sincere thanks, 
Brent


locked Ms-7 locomotives

Brent Greer <studegator@...>
 

The most recent post on the locomotives of the Atlanta-Birmingham line caught my attention.

I was not aware of the Ms-7 class of engones acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders.  

Can anyone share photos of these in Southern Ry. service that I might use for modeling purposes?

Sincere thanks, 
Brent


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?


On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Re: Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

C J Wyatt
 

Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

James Walton
 

I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


locked Re: Southern Railway History

aramsay18
 

This email is in reference to "A History of the Legal Development of the Railroad System of Southern Railway Company" (Legal History for short.)

Just FYI review of the Dedication and Preface to the 1958 Supplement makes it clear the Southern considered this document a valuable and worthwhile reference.  It is dedicated to Harry Ashby Debutts and states "under whose direction it was done."

Review of the 1958 Preface also shows the 1901 Legal History was considered a valuable document.  Significant work was put into it, as well as into the two supplements.  The 1958 Preface states "The invaluable book of Fairfax Harrison called A History of the Legal Development of the Railroad System of Southern Railway Company was published in December, 1901, and for the ensuing fifty-seven years has served the staff as its most useful and indispensable tool whenever any question has arisen as to the legal and corporate origins of the many lines of railroad making up Southern Railway System."

I've attached softcopy of the 1958 dedication and the 1958 Preface (which I stitched together into a PDF).  I've also attached a picture of the 1958 Supplement, showing how it was bound.  I think all copies of the 1958 supplement were bound that way (the 1921 supplement was paperbound).

Andy Ramsay
Berryville VA


On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 10:07 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Bill:

Fairfax Harrison was certainly interested in who had copies of the document. Note attached inquiry and sample of responses from SRHA Archives Box 192A File 21:

Ike




On Aug 23, 2021, at 8:52 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

I have seen a number of sets of bound volumes of the Legal History over the years, and the bindings seem to have been customized a number of different ways. The most common appears to be the main Legal History in two volumes, softcover. The cover is in light blue paper. 

Most of the hardcover ones I have seen are in the camel-brown covers with the red label on the spine. Some of these are in two volumes; some are one gargantuan volume that is usually falling apart if it ever got any use in its lifetime. And then there are the two volume sets that include the First Supplement bound into the second volume. 

The First Supplement was also produced in a stand-alone soft cover version and hard cover version. Usually, the 100 page hardcover was in the same camel-brown-with-red-label-on-spine as its bigger brothers. 

As for the Second Supplement, I don’t think I ever saw it in a paperback version; my sense is that Southern bound all of them in the camel brown when they were printed. Together, the pre-SRHA bound volumes clustered together on a bookshelf look impressive, like they belong in a lawyer’s office (which they usually were). 

I have no proof of this - maybe someone on the list can clarify - but it would make sense to me that some, if not all, of Southern’s outside counsels had sets of the Legal History on their bookshelves too. That may be why Southern had so many extra, unbound copies printed - to send to new outside counsel as needed.

Much harder to find is the other component to make the Legal History set complete: the large, framed 1921 system map that hung on the wall of many attorneys in the executive headquarters in Washington. On this map, each line or line segment is numbered, and each number correlates to a long list on the right of the map. Each item on the list refers to one of Southern’s many predecessors or components. To learn more about the predecessor, you look its name up in the index (at end of the second volume of the original Legal History). The map was issued about the time the First Supplement was printed. 

Not one to waste a good base map, Southern reduced, adapted, and updated it over the years and used it for myriad other purposes over the years. Here’s an example of the base map, with the list of predecessors. The list on the left is arranged by the numbered line segment; the list on the right is alphabetical and also shows the number of the corresponding line segment. This map has been updated to 1962 (it shows the Interstate but not the Central of Georgia, for example) and should look familiar. Any number of special-purpose maps for internal use were adapted from this map over the years:

—Bill Schafer

On Aug 23, 2021, at 19:03, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I suspect that a copy in a library (e.g. University of Michigan) did not come directly from the Southern Railway, but perhaps from the estate of an official or board of directors member who managed to snag a copy for themselves.

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, August 23, 2021, 06:19:48 PM EDT, aramsay18 <aramsay37@...> wrote:


Hello  Chris

I have an interest in the early years of the Southern, from the early 1890s through the 1930s, how it was formed, structured, financed, and evolved, which is quite a story by itself.  The history's stated purpose is to document the legal aspects of that monumental project.  However, it also has information on other aspects, to include some financial and some operational data can be gleaned from it.  IMHO it is the best source for such early material on the formation of the Southern that is publicly available.  (Haven't explored the SRHA archives in this area yet.)  I've been using the two hardcopy, softbound books parts 1 through 5 for a while and have not found any issues such as missing pages, meaningless text or anything like that.  It appears the version I have was soft bound by the Southern.  The online Google Books softcopy version was scanned from a hardbound copy (it appears that is one 1545 page book) from the transportation library at the University of Michigan. So U of M took delivery of it from the Southern somehow.  Perhaps they put it into hardbound form. I doubt it would have been included in their transportation library if it was of no value. Review of their copy shows some times when the person doing the scanning became tired and didn't line up the pages quite right, but I've yet to find any unreadable pages completely messed up by the scanner.  It is puzzling to me why they refused LOC's request but apparently satisfied U of M's request.  I can understand why the Southern would state the compilation is basically what is called working papers and not a formal document, because if they designate it a formal document, then it might box them into a corner in various legal actions (of which there were plenty).  Perhaps that is why they didn't want to make it available to the general public.  However nevertheless quite a bit of work was put into it.

Andy Ramsay
Berryville VA



<1921 System Map - B&W SRailwayMap_1.pdf>

581 - 600 of 2543