Date   

locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Bill Schafer
 

David:

The Royal Palm, the Peach Queen, and the Piedmont Limited of the 1960s all carried a lot of head-end traffic, typically in heavyweight cars. The Palm usually had lightweight coaches, but the coaches of the other two trains were usually heavyweights. To recreate the consists of these trains would depend on what other heavyweight cars are already available. A PRR X-29 boxcar, heavyweight Southern RPO, and heavyweight Southern baggage car would look right at home on these trains, but you’d also have to add a modernized (or not so modernized) heavyweight coach to maintain a correct consist. Lightweight Pullmans of the kind used on the Southern Crescent would be okay.

If your goal is to create the most authentic consists with the least number of different cars, it would seem to me that your original idea of offering the Southern Crescent (to the late-1960s/1970s folks) or the Southerner or Tennessean (to the folks interested in a prewar consist) is the course that will keep you the most sane. Even the Tennessean consist had heavyweight Pullmans in it from the outset. It never was a pure streamlined train, despite the publicity.

—Bill

On Jun 28, 2020, at 13:30, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Jason,

Interesting thought.  What would a typical train look like for the royal palm, peach queen, or piedmont, in roughly the same time frame or slightly earlier? I'm far less familiar with those trains.

David

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:22 AM Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:
Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting. 

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont. 

Jason Greene 

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
> 
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
 
 
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan





locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

SouRwyFan
 
Edited

Bob,

That actually looks like a train that would have originated straight out of North Avenue.
They were made up very different than Atlanta through trains.

BR, Rahl


locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

James
 

I for one have found this topic interesting as I like seeing the consists on varying dates. Also the other info on locomotives assigned and how they were assigned. 

I saw one mention of the 11 Double bedroom sleepers and wanted to remind everyone of the clinic I did on building these.
The clinic can be found here:


I posted pictures on the modeling group as well.

James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Robert Hanson
 

That consist you describe, Bill, sounds almost like a "make-up" train assembled in a hurry after it was learned that the connecting train would be very, very late.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Initial comments:

The prewar Southerner would not have run with any full baggage or mail cars. Its original consist just had a combination baggage-dorm-coach ahead of the Jim Crow coach, then two full coaches, dining car, another coach, then observation car - seven cars. I think (without digging) the train ran with an extra coach north of Atlanta.


The Southern Crescent would not have run regularly with a coach-lounge but would have always run with a Crescent-series master room-2 drawing room-tavern lounge. 

The prewar Pullman-Standard dining cars (e.g., Alexandria) were out of service by the time the Southern Crescent began operating circa 1969. Budd dining cars were used exclusively. Ditto for the prewar 56-seat coaches.

Don’t forget there is an “h” at the end of “Shenandoah”

The Southern Crescent was never advertised with an 11-double bedroom sleeper in its consist. Those cars ran to accommodate overflow bedroom passengers (often pass holders) or special groups. 

When it ran in the off season, the Southern Crescent was only 8 or 9 cars long anyway and would fit into your maximum length, but it also ran with four E8s, regardless of length. If the train ran in two sections, it had two E8s on the short section and three E8s on the long section.

I rode the Southern Crescent on business probably 100 times, and wrote down the consist almost every time, so if you want some typical consists, I can send you some. The cars were not always arranged like you’d expect them to be. Below is a Jim McClellan shot of the Southern Crescent with a minimal consist. Behind the four E8s is: baggage-dorm-coach, 52-seat coach, sleeper-tavern lounge, Budd 48-seat dining car, two more 52-seat coaches, and two 10-6 sleepers. There may also have been a 52-seat coach behind the sleepers for short-haul passengers. Jim shot this picture from the vestibule of the second sleeper northbound somewhere between Manassas and Alexandria. 


—Bill

On Jun 28, 2020, at 09:23, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

In the 1960's and 1970's the coaches generally ran ahead of the diner and the sleepers were placed behind it on almost all passenger trains. There were exceptions, but that was the general practice.

For reasons unknown Amtrak reversed the order some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
>
>
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan




locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Bill Schafer
 

Initial comments:

The prewar Southerner would not have run with any full baggage or mail cars. Its original consist just had a combination baggage-dorm-coach ahead of the Jim Crow coach, then two full coaches, dining car, another coach, then observation car - seven cars. I think (without digging) the train ran with an extra coach north of Atlanta.


The Southern Crescent would not have run regularly with a coach-lounge but would have always run with a Crescent-series master room-2 drawing room-tavern lounge. 

The prewar Pullman-Standard dining cars (e.g., Alexandria) were out of service by the time the Southern Crescent began operating circa 1969. Budd dining cars were used exclusively. Ditto for the prewar 56-seat coaches.

Don’t forget there is an “h” at the end of “Shenandoah”

The Southern Crescent was never advertised with an 11-double bedroom sleeper in its consist. Those cars ran to accommodate overflow bedroom passengers (often pass holders) or special groups. 

When it ran in the off season, the Southern Crescent was only 8 or 9 cars long anyway and would fit into your maximum length, but it also ran with four E8s, regardless of length. If the train ran in two sections, it had two E8s on the short section and three E8s on the long section.

I rode the Southern Crescent on business probably 100 times, and wrote down the consist almost every time, so if you want some typical consists, I can send you some. The cars were not always arranged like you’d expect them to be. Below is a Jim McClellan shot of the Southern Crescent with a minimal consist. Behind the four E8s is: baggage-dorm-coach, 52-seat coach, sleeper-tavern lounge, Budd 48-seat dining car, two more 52-seat coaches, and two 10-6 sleepers. There may also have been a 52-seat coach behind the sleepers for short-haul passengers. Jim shot this picture from the vestibule of the second sleeper northbound somewhere between Manassas and Alexandria. 


—Bill

On Jun 28, 2020, at 09:23, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

In the 1960's and 1970's the coaches generally ran ahead of the diner and the sleepers were placed behind it on almost all passenger trains. There were exceptions, but that was the general practice.

For reasons unknown Amtrak reversed the order some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
>
>
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan




locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Michael Young
 

From my time with the Charleston Chapter in the mid-1970s, I remember finding the mechanical record card in the electrical cabinet of the heavyweight Pullman "Bizet" and the last few entries indicated that it saw its last regular service on the Royal Palm in the mid to late 1960s. I believe it was an all double bedroom floor plan, but had been used for coach seating. "Coach" had been stenciled under "Bizet" on the end doors.
Mike Young


-----Original Message-----
From: David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Jason,

Interesting thought.  What would a typical train look like for the royal palm, peach queen, or piedmont, in roughly the same time frame or slightly earlier? I'm far less familiar with those trains.

David

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:22 AM Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:
Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)


> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan




locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

David Friedlander
 

Bob,

Thanks for the ordering thoughts.  I just based that off the late 70's consist post I just on here from this weekend. I'll reorder once I can make a final determination of what cars need to be offered to give the train the proper feel.  Looks like maybe I should replace the coach-lounge with an 11-DBR instead.

David

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 9:23 AM Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
In the 1960's and 1970's the coaches generally ran ahead of the diner and the sleepers were placed behind it on almost all passenger trains. There were exceptions, but that was the general practice.

For reasons unknown Amtrak reversed the order some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
>
>
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan



locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

David Friedlander
 

Jason,

Interesting thought.  What would a typical train look like for the royal palm, peach queen, or piedmont, in roughly the same time frame or slightly earlier? I'm far less familiar with those trains.

David

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:22 AM Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:
Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)


> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan




locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Robert Hanson
 

In the 1960's and 1970's the coaches generally ran ahead of the diner and the sleepers were placed behind it on almost all passenger trains. There were exceptions, but that was the general practice.

For reasons unknown Amtrak reversed the order some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
>
>
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan



locked Re: Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Jason Greene
 

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan


locked Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

David Friedlander
 

All,
 
So maybe this isn't the right list serve for this topic, but I'll start here as its mostly historical in nature (with an admitted purpose to create factory models).

TLDR - Looking for some answers and advice on an approach for an O-Scale company to make three SOU named passenger trains at the same time, that has thought about minimizing tooling costs and has a good chance of meeting minimum production quantities.

More:
In O-Scale, there is generally two camps of people when it comes to Southern passenger trains.  There is a following for those who want a RTR Tennessean (behind streamlined steam or these E6's), and a RTR Southern Crescent (late 60's/early 70's - pre-black roofs behind Southern Crescent E8's).   There may be a good fit to try to do the Southerner as well as I have a feeling much of the consist of that train is similar to the Tennessean.  The ultimate goal here is to try to reuse-tooling across all three named trains with no or minor changes (deskirting, covering flutes, etc.) and as few different car types as possible to reduce complexity, yet provide a good feel for the train. I admit I think there is far more overlap between the Southerner and the Tennessean than the Southern Crescent, but the Southern Crescent is also an extremely popular train too for obvious historical reasons.
 
I usually independently research, but this topic delves into things I don't feel I know a lot about and would really appreciate third-party opinions. I still need to sit down and read deeper into a few of my books (I have the floor plan books for the Passenger Car Library (ACF/Budd), the Pullman-Standard Library, the SOU handbook, SOU color freight guide, SOU varnish book, and SOU passenger trains in service, along with most other SOU books) along with some online resources (such as https://condrenrails.com/MRP/Tennessean/Tennessean-equipment.htm) and figure out a good "set" of cars for each train...but figured I'd start here in case someone can answer some initial questions and has a suggestion on where I can spend most of my time researching.
 
The end goal? With such a small group of Southern modelers in O Scale, I'm looking to make a case for 3rd Rail/Sunset Models (I'm soliciting them, not the other way around.) to possibly offer these named trains all at the same time in order to meet the minimum quantity necessary to make it feasible to produce these trains in O Scale.  Yes, Lionel recently came out with 21" plastic cars, but they were based on the NYC Empire State Express (big surprise there.). While not a Rapido (really wish they did some O), 3rd Rail has proven it can do an amazing job on passenger cars. See the SAL Meteor at the bottom of this page.
 
Marketing in O-Scale/O-Gauge has traditionally fallen into 6-car or 8-car sets along with some extra add-on coaches or sleepers, etc.  The car quantity for a "set" is probably due to size-constraints for a layout in O-scale. With that said, I'm looking for opinions on what 6-8 cars plus add-ons for each train to get the full "flavor" of each.  My initial thought is to try reduce tooling cost and reuse across all three trains as much as possible, even if the later-era cars require some slight modifications, like skirt removal, or panels over the flutes. I'm thinking one could reuse the Tennessean tooling for later era-cars, say Corinth (de-skirt and add plating over the flutes), 48-seat dining cars (just de-skirt them?), and possibly the 56-seat chair cars (de-skirt, but I think these were retired early on). I know the Crescent would need several 10-6 sleepers, 52s coaches, maybe a coach-lounge, and not sure what else to make it feel right, especially at a 6 to 8 car train. I can't seem to find my spreadsheet that had a bunch of crescent consists all listed out.  To attract other modelers and meet the minimum production quantity, the add-on cars could also be painted in other railroad paint schemes if the car plan was shared with other roads (Some were for L&N, AWP, FEC, WofA, and I would need to identify that where possible). I am also thinking the later Crescent cars can appeal to Amtrak modelers of the Rainbow era, which would also help meet the minimum production quantity if they purchased add-on cars or even the Crescent set.

Additional questions I know I lack answers to:
1. I don't know a whole lot about the Southerner consist except for the fact it had the Louisiana OBS.  Does someone have an idea where I could look to see the train's make up? I seem to remember there was a list somewhere where the specific car assignments for the consists were shown for the Tennessean, Southerner, and Royal Palm. ( My list below may need altering because I'm not sure what cars ran in what trainset. )
2. Regarding coaches, any idea if any 56s coaches from the Tennessean could be reused on the 60's/70's Crescent? I read that at least one of them may have been donated sometime in the mid 60's, so they may only work on the earlier trains.
3. I'm also noticing trucks varied in what looks like two main truck variants.  Does anyone have a good resource for that? Hopefully none were replaced over time.

I've yet to produce a spreadsheet to keep track of variations, etc, but after about 3 hours of looking around books and drafting this email, here are my initial passenger train suggestions below.
 
As-delivered Tennessean (6-8 cars):
-1700 Corinth (60Ft RPO)
-1725 Lenoir City(30Ft RPO)**If 8-cars
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail)
-706 Bedford (Bag-Dorm-Coach)**If 8-cars
-810 Bristol (56-seat chair Car)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car)
-814 Roanoke (56-seat Chair Car)
-1150 Washington (Tav-Lng OBS)
 
Add-on:
-1701 Grand Junction (60Ft RPO)
-1726 Athens (30Ft RPO)**If 8-cars (Can also be de-skirted and have flutes covered for later-era car)
-1750 Decatur (Bag-Mail)
-704 Johnson City (Bag-Dorm-Coach)**If 8-cars (Can also be offered de-skirted for later-era car)
-808 Sheffield (56-seat Chair Car)
-811 Sweetwater (56-seat Chair Car)
-812 Charlottesville (56-seat Chair Car)
-813 Lynchburg (56-seat Chair Car)



(As-Delivered?) Southerner (6-8 cars):
-(What was used on this train? Is it basically the same train as the Tennessean, but with different OBS and different car names otherwise?)
-
-
-
-
-
-1101 Louisana (OBS)
 
Add-on:
-
-



late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)
 
 
Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan
 
I am appreciative to anyone who has a thought on the subject.  Definitely deeper research needed on my end, but hopefully someone can help answer my initial questions and advice on what cars should be included.
 
David Friedlander
NYC or Columbia, MD


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train - 04.27.85

George Eichelberger
 

Mark:

We allow attachments on both the “SouthernRailway” and “ModelingThe Southern” groups. The time will probably come when we get to the limit of allowed storage and some items will have to be removed. Until then…thanks for the photo!

Ike
PS I convert anything I post to the jpeg format to reduce the image size. In many cases, I can send a higher resolution tiff image if needed.



On Jun 17, 2020, at 7:59 PM, Mark Demaline via groups.io <conductor7@...> wrote:

Not sure if the io.groups site will strip attachments or not, but attached is one scan of the
train, at Mitchell VA. on April 27,1985.

I saw & photographed him first at the Route 29 o/p at Culpepper, and chased him south to 
Red Hill VA. My notes & slides show he ran as a #141. He was making some serious noise
coming up out of those dips, and thru the S-curves @ Hickory Grove. 

~ Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stewart <jstew@...>


Hi folks
 
Neat story.  Got a picture?
 
John
 
John R Stewart
205-901-3790
 

 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Demaline via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 9:12 AM
And in late April, 1985, on a cloudy day, I chased & photographed Southern titanium ore train south of Charlottesville, with all D&H hoppers, which I'm 99% certain originated at the
mine at Tahawus NY. The mine had been closed, but they were finishing removing the stockpiled ore. I assumed it was going to Gadsden or Birmingham, possibly for processing for 
the Carpenter Tech facility in Athens, which produces specialty titanium parts for the aircraft, aerospace, and other industrial uses.  I never did find out the actual destination.  But it
was a great train to obtain some photos of.  Only having seen one of these trains on the Southern this one time, I was never sure if it was a regular, or only a one-time, move.
 
Corrections, more info, and clarifications always welcome,   Mark D
 
 

<SOU.#141.D&H ore train.3300-3122-3141.Mitchell VA.04.27.85c.Mark Demaline photo.copyrt 2020..jpg>


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train - 04.27.85

Mark Demaline
 

Not sure if the io.groups site will strip attachments or not, but attached is one scan of the
train, at Mitchell VA. on April 27,1985.

I saw & photographed him first at the Route 29 o/p at Culpepper, and chased him south to
Red Hill VA. My notes & slides show he ran as a #141. He was making some serious noise
coming up out of those dips, and thru the S-curves @ Hickory Grove.

~ Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stewart <jstew@...>


Hi folks
 
Neat story.  Got a picture?
 
John
 
John R Stewart
205-901-3790
 

 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Demaline via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 9:12 AM
And in late April, 1985, on a cloudy day, I chased & photographed Southern titanium ore train south of Charlottesville, with all D&H hoppers, which I'm 99% certain originated at the
mine at Tahawus NY. The mine had been closed, but they were finishing removing the stockpiled ore. I assumed it was going to Gadsden or Birmingham, possibly for processing for
the Carpenter Tech facility in Athens, which produces specialty titanium parts for the aircraft, aerospace, and other industrial uses.  I never did find out the actual destination.  But it
was a great train to obtain some photos of.  Only having seen one of these trains on the Southern this one time, I was never sure if it was a regular, or only a one-time, move.
 
Corrections, more info, and clarifications always welcome,   Mark D
 
 


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train(s)

John Stewart
 

Hi folks

 

Neat story.  Got a picture?

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Demaline via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 9:12 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train(s)

 

And in late April, 1985, on a cloudy day, I chased & photographed Southern titanium ore train south of Charlottesville, with all D&H hoppers, which I'm 99% certain originated at the

mine at Tahawus NY. The mine had been closed, but they were finishing removing the stockpiled ore. I assumed it was going to Gadsden or Birmingham, possibly for processing for

the Carpenter Tech facility in Athens, which produces specialty titanium parts for the aircraft, aerospace, and other industrial uses.  I never did find out the actual destination.  But it

was a great train to obtain some photos of.  Only having seen one of these trains on the Southern this one time, I was never sure if it was a regular, or only a one-time, move.

 

Corrections, more info, and clarifications always welcome,   Mark D

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Hedrick <johedrick6@...>

Mobile ore movements. I was Trainmaster at Mobile 1970-71. Best I can recall, we moved both red ore and some pellet ore at that time. At one point, some pellet  ore moved in Big Red coal hoppers weighing out long before cubing out. Ore moved on train 154. 154 left Mobile with the two engines that came in on local 69 then swapped power with 153 (4 GPs) at their meeting point. Two GPs handled 5,000 tons so 154 was filled out with ore to the tonnage limit. It would take a number days to move ore.  When at maximum tonnage, the yard engine, normally a GP-30, would shove 154 over the hill just north of the yard. All power was GP.

Reportedly, a  predecessor, who had connections in the control center, arranged to run an extra without clearing it with the superintendent. He got in serious trouble.


locked Re: Iron Ore trains from.... and 1985 titanium ore train(s)

Mark Demaline
 

And in late April, 1985, on a cloudy day, I chased & photographed Southern titanium ore train south of Charlottesville, with all D&H hoppers, which I'm 99% certain originated at the
mine at Tahawus NY. The mine had been closed, but they were finishing removing the stockpiled ore. I assumed it was going to Gadsden or Birmingham, possibly for processing for
the Carpenter Tech facility in Athens, which produces specialty titanium parts for the aircraft, aerospace, and other industrial uses.  I never did find out the actual destination.  But it
was a great train to obtain some photos of.  Only having seen one of these trains on the Southern this one time, I was never sure if it was a regular, or only a one-time, move.

Corrections, more info, and clarifications always welcome,   Mark D


-----Original Message-----
From: John Hedrick <johedrick6@...>


Mobile ore movements. I was Trainmaster at Mobile 1970-71. Best I can recall, we moved both red ore and some pellet ore at that time. At one point, some pellet  ore moved in Big Red coal hoppers weighing out long before cubing out. Ore moved on train 154. 154 left Mobile with the two engines that came in on local 69 then swapped power with 153 (4 GPs) at their meeting point. Two GPs handled 5,000 tons so 154 was filled out with ore to the tonnage limit. It would take a number days to move ore.  When at maximum tonnage, the yard engine, normally a GP-30, would shove 154 over the hill just north of the yard. All power was GP.

Reportedly, a  predecessor, who had connections in the control center, arranged to run an extra without clearing it with the superintendent. He got in serious trouble.
_._,_._,_


locked NYC Heavyweight Sleepers on the Ponce DeLeon?

George Eichelberger
 

We received an interesting question from John Horvath (NYCHS) about a group of Pullman Plan 3979A (8-1-2) sleepers assigned to the Ponce DeLeon. While we continue to look through the photos in the SRHA archives, it may be useful to ask the Southern Railway.io group… Here’s more detail from John.

Within the large (379 cars) fleet of HW sleepers that the NYCS acquired in the 1948 Pullman divestiture were eight Plan 3979A (8-1-2) cars with CENT-prefix car names that were painted in the “Overland” train two-tone gray scheme. These cars had been in NY-Chicago-San Francisco service from 1946 until displaced by LW cars at the end of 1949. They retained this painting and lettering scheme until the NYCS had Pullman repaint them between 1952 and 1954 (most in 1953).

Pullman Culver assignment letters curated by Dave Staplin some years ago indicate that at least in Summer 1951 four of these NYC-owned cars painted in the “Overland” scheme operated between Cleveland and Jacksonville on the “Ponce de Leon”. Is there any chance that you have or know of a photo or photos of these NYCS-owned cars painted in the “Overland” scheme while in this or any other service? The paint scheme would be hard to miss as it was the original pre-WW2 version of two-tone gray, with the light gray used for most of the carbody and only the pier panel painted dark gray. The “Overland” train name was at the center of the letterboard in sans-serif lettering.

In addition to a photo, might there be a consist of the Ponce from Jax Term for these years that show the NYC cars?

Ike

PS There is a large amount of data in the archives on the Ponce DeLeon over the years. If anyone has any information on the Ponce, the Royal Palm, Royal Palm DeLuxe or New Royal Palm please let us know. In addition to an article, those trains would make an excellent presentation at the Cocoa Beach RPM next year. There are always NYC, Southern and FEC folks attending.

We have the full list of Pullmans Southern acquired in the divestiture if that is of interest...


locked Discontinuing Passenger Trains and Moving US Mail to Intermodal Services

George Eichelberger
 

Reading though passenger train-off files in the SRHA archives, I realized there was a direct relationship between the Southern wanting to reduce passenger train miles and the early development of intermodal services (sic Rail-Highway on the Southern) that I was not aware of. As with many things, the reason was money.

While passenger services, particularly dining cars, were not profitable, revenues from Railway Express and US Mail were significant enough the Southern did not want to lose them. Eliminating passenger trains in the 1960s came at the same time the Post Office was trying to reduce its own costs. Paying mail handlers at stations, moving mail to postal sorting facilities and adapting to reduced passenger train schedules were all issues to be dealt with.

As the Southern started attaching intermodal cars to passenger trains for additional revenue on those trains, the railroad asked to PO Dept if they would like to load and unload mail from containers at their facilities rather than passenger stations. Initially, the SR's intent appears to have been to add more COFC (Southern did not handle TOFC in those days) to its passenger trains. Very quickly, the PO asked to move containers between its facilities at times that did not correspond to SR passenger train schedules.

At first, the Trailer-Train (CTTX, specially equipped, only the SR and B&O used them) cars were operated in regular merchandise freights but the growth of Rail-Highway services soon led to dedicated intermodal trains and terminal facilities. As that trend accelerated, the PO was happy to eliminate RPO services and move what had been storage mail to intermodal.

Was this typical with other railroads?

I’ve attached a two-page SR memo to DW Brosnan dated 10-22-65 that discusses “diversion of mail from Trains 3 and 4” from Cincinnati to Jacksonville.

Ike





locked Re: Info requested on the "Florida Sunbeam" and Through Cars at Cincinnati

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

Thanks for the reminder about the Wayner book. Another book I suggest is “Midwest Florida Sunliners” by R. Lyle Key Jr.

Most of the material in the draft of the Sunbeam article is from the SRHA archives. Because that is “primary” reference material, I usually start assembling an article with it before I do a deep review of published work. Hopefully, the combination of sources helps fill in most of the details. Although there is an entire file on the postwar Sunbeam, I need to look into “passenger” files for all previous years to find memos or correspondence that might also refer to the train. Dining car files, for example.

As is common with this type of research, it can be like a chain reaction. The Sunbeam to Cincy leads to which NYC trains carried the cars from there., etc., etc.

Ike



On Jun 9, 2020, at 2:27 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Ike,

Have you seen the consist for the Florida Sunbeam departing Miami on December 25, 1940 published in Wayner's Passenger Train Consists of the 1940? The Pullman names could be crossed checked with the Pullman A/C register assignment, but one definitely assigned to NYC car was the 6 DB Buffet-Lounge, Dover Plains (which I photographed in the early 1990s). Southern Rwy. cars are represented by a heavyweight combine, coach, and diner. SAL's contribution was an American Flyer coach. Its AF coaches and combines appeared frequently in the Florida Sunbeam over the years.

The consist that Chuck gave of  no. 5 on December 11, 1949 actually should be December 17, 1949 and the source was Louis Newton in his Rails Remembered Vol.2, page 482.

Jack Wyatt



locked Re: Info requested on the "Florida Sunbeam" and Through Cars at Cincinnati

C J Wyatt
 

Ike,

Have you seen the consist for the Florida Sunbeam departing Miami on December 25, 1940 published in Wayner's Passenger Train Consists of the 1940? The Pullman names could be crossed checked with the Pullman A/C register assignment, but one definitely assigned to NYC car was the 6 DB Buffet-Lounge, Dover Plains (which I photographed in the early 1990s). Southern Rwy. cars are represented by a heavyweight combine, coach, and diner. SAL's contribution was an American Flyer coach. Its AF coaches and combines appeared frequently in the Florida Sunbeam over the years.

The consist that Chuck gave of  no. 5 on December 11, 1949 actually should be December 17, 1949 and the source was Louis Newton in his Rails Remembered Vol.2, page 482.

Jack Wyatt

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 02:00:57 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


All:

I attempted to copy the following series (some omitted) of posts from ther Passenger Car LIst but apparently I "fat fingered" the process. Here is attempt number two....

Ike
***

I am putting the finishing touches on an article about the “Florida Sunbeam” for the Southern Railway Historical Association’s “TIES” magazine. As usual, the Southern Railway Presidents’ files in the SRHA archives have provided correspondence between the NYC, Southern and Seaboard and internal SR memos about the train over the years.

The seasonal "Florida Sunbeam" (known as the "Suwannee River Special" prior to the 1937 season), year-round "Royal Palm", "Royal Palm DeLux”, and "Ponce DeLeon" on the Southern and the “Flamingo” on the L&N were promoted by the New York Central as their “Florida” trains. The Central interchanged through cars or passengers to and from those trains from Detroit/Grand Rapids, Chicago, Cleveland, Indianapolis and Buffalo at Cincinnati.

I have been able to research all of the sources I am aware of “Guides”, PTTs, books, etc., not to mention Bob Piety’s fabulous spreadsheets, on the Sunbeam and NYC Florida services but would like to find more on specific consists over the years. (Of course I am aware of the equipment descriptions in PTTs but I am not certain if they are sometime provided more as advertising than actual operating data. For example, PTTs saying a Detroit-Miami train has a dining car does not say (or care) if NYC, Southern and Seaboard diners were changed along the way.)

So…my question. Is anyone aware of train consist information from any of the NYC terminals, Cincinnati, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Jacksonville (for the ACL and FEC trains), Tampa or St. Pete? As a seasonal train, the Fla Sunbeam used Pullman pool equipment, were specific cars more or less assigned to the seasonal trains? …and many more questions.

Thanks in advance for any ideas….

Ike

***

Hi Ike,
I have a consist of a New Royal Palm in Chattanooga, SB 12-11-1949, A NB Royal Palm from http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/passenger-consists-122151.htm
Are they of interest to you?

Take care,
Chuck

***
Chuck:

Thanks for the info!

The December 21, 1951 consist of the NB “New Royal Palm” at Cincinnati (?) is very interesting.
At first, I thought the passenger count was very low but as the second section of a NB train that originated in Florida in late December, the number of Pullman passengers (only 14) shows people were heading to Florida, NOT Detroit. The five, mostly empty, sleepers could be basically deadheading north for their next SB trip. (The July, 1951 “Guide” shows three Cincinnati-Detroit sleepers on train 302, were these through cars?)

I do not see if there is a “first 302” listed but the fact this is the consist of a second section tells us something. (?) Was the Southern train into Cincy so late, the Central ran #302 ("The Michigan Special”) with the through cars on the second section? I speculate the NYC express reefers originated in Cincinnati although shipments of Florida Citrus for Christmas would still be high in late December. Considered basically a NYC “train” on the Southern and FEC, the cars may have been sent south to handle the NB shipments? Even for that business, many express shipments from the south went to Cincinnati to be sorted and forwarded there for midwest destinations. Also, in 1951, the “New Royal Palm” was considered an important train on the Southern, it would not have carried a lot of express cars.

I would not expect the NB “Palm” would have carried a heavyweight NYC diner into Cincinnati. Was a Southern diner normally cut off there? Does the fact it was a NYC heavyweight tell us it was a backup car needed for the second section? Lastly, the only (Southern) coach on the train had a heavy passenger load. Were those through passengers or (College students?) “on at Cincinnati”?

I would very much like to see your consist of the SB “Palm” at Chattanooga. The “Florida Sunbeam” operated in 1950 so that consist would show activity at the beginning of the season. (More SB Pullmans were added to the Florida trains on the Central a couple of weeks after New Years when the “high season" in Florida was getting underway.)

I suspect train consists would give us as many questions as answers but everything adds to our knowledge. Thanks again!

Ike

***

Hi Ike,
Here is the SB at Chattanooga, 12-11-1949.
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 NYC Chattanooga Baggage-Coach LW Railway Classics Cincinnati Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 FEC Chattanooga Coach-56 seat Dania 9613-005 Budd LW Walthers 6380, Riv Budd coach, both close Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga Chair 56 Sweetwater 7457 6646 PS LW Rivarossi, fluted coach Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga Chair 34, Bar-L 951 9621-030 Budd LW NKP Car Company Cincinnati Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga Diner 48 Seat 3308 9624-030 Budd LW NKP Car Company Cincinnati Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga 10 Rmt-6 DB Rappahannock River 4140 6814 PS LW Union Station Products, NKP Car Company, Walthers Chicago Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga 10 Rmt-6 DB Coosa River 4140 6814 PS LW Union Station Products, NKP Car Company, Walthers Cleveland Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga 10 Rmt-6 DB Flint River 4140 6814 PS LW Union Station Products, NKP Car Company, Walthers Buffalo Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 NYC Chattanooga 4 Cpt-4 DB-2 DR Imperial Emblem 4069E 6617 PS LW Athabasca, Laser Horizons Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 NYC Chattanooga 10 Rmt-5 DB Cascade Spray 4072C 6610 PS LW Union Station Products Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 FEC Chattanooga 10 Rmt-6 DB Chile 4140 6814 PS LW Union Station Products, NKP Car Company, Walthers Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga 1-2-Buf-Lng Crescent City 4160 6814 PS LW NKP Car Company Detroit Miami
12 cars
I am sure it will be scrambled when you get it. If so let me know and I can send the spreadsheet.

Take care,
Chuck

***

I'm pretty sure it was an exceptional situation if the Royal Palm caused a second section on the NYC.  At its peak, there were six Detroit cars on the New Royal Palm, five sleepers and one coach.  You can see this in the FEC equipment listings.  I'm looking at the 2/51 listing.  On the same trains, NYC 302 and 309, there was a Detroit-Tampa sleeper that ran on the Royal Palm from Cincinnati, also a Detroit-Cincinnati sleeper.  Southbound, the Royal Palm departed Cincinnati 15 minutes after the New Royal Palm and took three hours longer to get to Jacksonville.  Six cars added to the regular train would not have justified a second section.
 
I noticed a few comments about diners.  The New Royal Palm carried a diner and a diner-Lounge between Cincinnati and Miami.  The schedule between Detroit and Cincinnati was entirely within sleeping hours, so only three cars were needed to cover all of the trains.  Four cars were needed to cover the Chicago, Detroit and Cleveland services.  According to Wayner, the dining-lounge cars were delivered by ACF to the FEC(1) and SOU(2) in Aug-Sep 1950.  The 50-51 season was the first full season of operation of the whole NRP train.  The observation cars came from Pullman in Feb-Mar 1950 to the NYC(1), FEC(1) and SOU(2).  SOU received two diners for the train in SEP-OCT 1949, and according to Wayner, one diner was contributed to the pool by NYC but did not operate on the NYC.
 
Malcolm Laughlin

***

Statements like that about the Florida Sunbeam always trigger my skepticism.  I've been searching the on-line NYC timetable collection and could find none for the Big four between 1930 and 1941.  Unfortunately, y Official guide collection is mostly summer season.  I did find one for winter of 1937 and looked at the Florida Sunbeam consist.  There are ten sleepers listed, one each from Cincinnati and Indianapolis and eight from Cleveland, Chicago and Detroit.
 
There was no NYC train named the Florida Sunbeam.  From the NYC perspective,  it was only the name of a sevice that included cars from three of their trains and not more than four from any one of them.  Why would NYC care at all about one sleeper not from them in a train made up at Cincinnati ?  I note that the NYC train with the Sunbeam cars from chicago also carried two Florida sleepers for the Royal Palm.
 
ML

***

Malcolm:

I am not sure your comment about "one sleeper" refers to my comment about the NYC not wanting Pullmans from non-NYC cities in the Sunbeam. In case it is...one of the great things about the Southern Railway Historical Association's archives (at TVRM in Chattanooga) is that they contain more than 17,000 SR Executive Dept files that span the entire history of the Southern. I can argue that those files make writing articles easier or harder because guesswork or speculation (even when facts are missing) are not usually needed.

In the case of the NYC and Pullmans at Cincinnati, I don't believe the attached 10-7-46 memo leaves much room for interpretation, at least for the postwar Sunbeam. (HAD is SR President Harry A DeButts)

Ike


 


locked Info requested on the "Florida Sunbeam" and Through Cars at Cincinnati

George Eichelberger
 

All:

I attempted to copy the following series (some omitted) of posts from ther Passenger Car LIst but apparently I "fat fingered" the process. Here is attempt number two....

Ike
***

I am putting the finishing touches on an article about the “Florida Sunbeam” for the Southern Railway Historical Association’s “TIES” magazine. As usual, the Southern Railway Presidents’ files in the SRHA archives have provided correspondence between the NYC, Southern and Seaboard and internal SR memos about the train over the years.

The seasonal "Florida Sunbeam" (known as the "Suwannee River Special" prior to the 1937 season), year-round "Royal Palm", "Royal Palm DeLux”, and "Ponce DeLeon" on the Southern and the “Flamingo” on the L&N were promoted by the New York Central as their “Florida” trains. The Central interchanged through cars or passengers to and from those trains from Detroit/Grand Rapids, Chicago, Cleveland, Indianapolis and Buffalo at Cincinnati.

I have been able to research all of the sources I am aware of “Guides”, PTTs, books, etc., not to mention Bob Piety’s fabulous spreadsheets, on the Sunbeam and NYC Florida services but would like to find more on specific consists over the years. (Of course I am aware of the equipment descriptions in PTTs but I am not certain if they are sometime provided more as advertising than actual operating data. For example, PTTs saying a Detroit-Miami train has a dining car does not say (or care) if NYC, Southern and Seaboard diners were changed along the way.)

So…my question. Is anyone aware of train consist information from any of the NYC terminals, Cincinnati, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Jacksonville (for the ACL and FEC trains), Tampa or St. Pete? As a seasonal train, the Fla Sunbeam used Pullman pool equipment, were specific cars more or less assigned to the seasonal trains? …and many more questions.

Thanks in advance for any ideas….

Ike

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Hi Ike,
I have a consist of a New Royal Palm in Chattanooga, SB 12-11-1949, A NB Royal Palm from http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/passenger-consists-122151.htm
Are they of interest to you?

Take care,
Chuck

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Chuck:

Thanks for the info!

The December 21, 1951 consist of the NB “New Royal Palm” at Cincinnati (?) is very interesting.
At first, I thought the passenger count was very low but as the second section of a NB train that originated in Florida in late December, the number of Pullman passengers (only 14) shows people were heading to Florida, NOT Detroit. The five, mostly empty, sleepers could be basically deadheading north for their next SB trip. (The July, 1951 “Guide” shows three Cincinnati-Detroit sleepers on train 302, were these through cars?)

I do not see if there is a “first 302” listed but the fact this is the consist of a second section tells us something. (?) Was the Southern train into Cincy so late, the Central ran #302 ("The Michigan Special”) with the through cars on the second section? I speculate the NYC express reefers originated in Cincinnati although shipments of Florida Citrus for Christmas would still be high in late December. Considered basically a NYC “train” on the Southern and FEC, the cars may have been sent south to handle the NB shipments? Even for that business, many express shipments from the south went to Cincinnati to be sorted and forwarded there for midwest destinations. Also, in 1951, the “New Royal Palm” was considered an important train on the Southern, it would not have carried a lot of express cars.

I would not expect the NB “Palm” would have carried a heavyweight NYC diner into Cincinnati. Was a Southern diner normally cut off there? Does the fact it was a NYC heavyweight tell us it was a backup car needed for the second section? Lastly, the only (Southern) coach on the train had a heavy passenger load. Were those through passengers or (College students?) “on at Cincinnati”?

I would very much like to see your consist of the SB “Palm” at Chattanooga. The “Florida Sunbeam” operated in 1950 so that consist would show activity at the beginning of the season. (More SB Pullmans were added to the Florida trains on the Central a couple of weeks after New Years when the “high season" in Florida was getting underway.)

I suspect train consists would give us as many questions as answers but everything adds to our knowledge. Thanks again!

Ike

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Hi Ike,
Here is the SB at Chattanooga, 12-11-1949.
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 NYC Chattanooga Baggage-Coach LW Railway Classics Cincinnati Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 FEC Chattanooga Coach-56 seat Dania 9613-005 Budd LW Walthers 6380, Riv Budd coach, both close Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga Chair 56 Sweetwater 7457 6646 PS LW Rivarossi, fluted coach Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga Chair 34, Bar-L 951 9621-030 Budd LW NKP Car Company Cincinnati Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga Diner 48 Seat 3308 9624-030 Budd LW NKP Car Company Cincinnati Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga 10 Rmt-6 DB Rappahannock River 4140 6814 PS LW Union Station Products, NKP Car Company, Walthers Chicago Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga 10 Rmt-6 DB Coosa River 4140 6814 PS LW Union Station Products, NKP Car Company, Walthers Cleveland Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga 10 Rmt-6 DB Flint River 4140 6814 PS LW Union Station Products, NKP Car Company, Walthers Buffalo Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 NYC Chattanooga 4 Cpt-4 DB-2 DR Imperial Emblem 4069E 6617 PS LW Athabasca, Laser Horizons Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 NYC Chattanooga 10 Rmt-5 DB Cascade Spray 4072C 6610 PS LW Union Station Products Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 FEC Chattanooga 10 Rmt-6 DB Chile 4140 6814 PS LW Union Station Products, NKP Car Company, Walthers Detroit Miami
12/11/1949 New Royal Palm SOU #5 SOU Chattanooga 1-2-Buf-Lng Crescent City 4160 6814 PS LW NKP Car Company Detroit Miami
12 cars
I am sure it will be scrambled when you get it. If so let me know and I can send the spreadsheet.

Take care,
Chuck

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I'm pretty sure it was an exceptional situation if the Royal Palm caused a second section on the NYC.  At its peak, there were six Detroit cars on the New Royal Palm, five sleepers and one coach.  You can see this in the FEC equipment listings.  I'm looking at the 2/51 listing.  On the same trains, NYC 302 and 309, there was a Detroit-Tampa sleeper that ran on the Royal Palm from Cincinnati, also a Detroit-Cincinnati sleeper.  Southbound, the Royal Palm departed Cincinnati 15 minutes after the New Royal Palm and took three hours longer to get to Jacksonville.  Six cars added to the regular train would not have justified a second section.
 
I noticed a few comments about diners.  The New Royal Palm carried a diner and a diner-Lounge between Cincinnati and Miami.  The schedule between Detroit and Cincinnati was entirely within sleeping hours, so only three cars were needed to cover all of the trains.  Four cars were needed to cover the Chicago, Detroit and Cleveland services.  According to Wayner, the dining-lounge cars were delivered by ACF to the FEC(1) and SOU(2) in Aug-Sep 1950.  The 50-51 season was the first full season of operation of the whole NRP train.  The observation cars came from Pullman in Feb-Mar 1950 to the NYC(1), FEC(1) and SOU(2).  SOU received two diners for the train in SEP-OCT 1949, and according to Wayner, one diner was contributed to the pool by NYC but did not operate on the NYC.
 
Malcolm Laughlin

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Statements like that about the Florida Sunbeam always trigger my skepticism.  I've been searching the on-line NYC timetable collection and could find none for the Big four between 1930 and 1941.  Unfortunately, y Official guide collection is mostly summer season.  I did find one for winter of 1937 and looked at the Florida Sunbeam consist.  There are ten sleepers listed, one each from Cincinnati and Indianapolis and eight from Cleveland, Chicago and Detroit.
 
There was no NYC train named the Florida Sunbeam.  From the NYC perspective,  it was only the name of a sevice that included cars from three of their trains and not more than four from any one of them.  Why would NYC care at all about one sleeper not from them in a train made up at Cincinnati ?  I note that the NYC train with the Sunbeam cars from chicago also carried two Florida sleepers for the Royal Palm.
 
ML

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Malcolm:

I am not sure your comment about "one sleeper" refers to my comment about the NYC not wanting Pullmans from non-NYC cities in the Sunbeam. In case it is...one of the great things about the Southern Railway Historical Association's archives (at TVRM in Chattanooga) is that they contain more than 17,000 SR Executive Dept files that span the entire history of the Southern. I can argue that those files make writing articles easier or harder because guesswork or speculation (even when facts are missing) are not usually needed.

In the case of the NYC and Pullmans at Cincinnati, I don't believe the attached 10-7-46 memo leaves much room for interpretation, at least for the postwar Sunbeam. (HAD is SR President Harry A DeButts)

Ike