Date   

locked Re: [ModelingTheSouthern] Southern 70T Woodchip Hopper

George Eichelberger
 

Dan:

Here is a reduced size SF-21598 showing the bracing that sat inside the box car wood chip conversions.  You’ll understand my reference to looking like a child’s swing set. (I’ll look to see if Southern did something similar for the hopper conversions?)

I’ve attached a rather poor scan made from microfilm years ago. We just put the new 48” scanner in service in the archives and I spent this past Thurs-Sat scanning the full size drawings…there are thousands more to do!. (We spent $7,000 on the new scanner but it’s worth every cent as far as we are concerned…of course donations to the archives are always welcome!)

With more help at the work sessions, we can get more done and work to make copies available, more to TIES articles, etc., etc. The Nov. session dates will be the 3rd weekend (Fri & Sat) of the month.

I mentioned we will be starting the “Southern News Bulletin” email to SRHA members every month TIES is not published next year. It’s not a PDF version of TIES as it will include modeling articles, “the Southern Today”, “From the Archives”, etc. We are looking for SRHA member volunteers to edit different sections, send a note to archives@... if you are interested. (A formal announcement will come out shortly.) Not every section will be in every “issue” and we expect it will only be a few pages to start. How it grows is “TBD”.

Ike

  

On Oct 17, 2021, at 11:04 AM, Daniel Bourque <deltabourque@...> wrote:

Ike, Fenton, David,

Good info on the shakers! I didn’t have any photos of the inside, so the cross bracing was a guess based on the extra panels on the outside reinforcing this section of the car as well as the example of bracing used in the modified boxcars. I’m making a removable load from foamcore that has slots to accommodate the bracing. 

The “rust” on the sides is just some paint stippling with a mostly dry brush. 

Dan


On Oct 17, 2021, at 7:35 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

 PS Re car shakers to unload wood chips.

For some genuine trivia (described in the pulpwood to chip car articles in TIES years ago), wood chips compact themselves straight down when loaded so opening doors on the bottom doesn’t do much. The modified hoppers and box cars had straight sides as you’d expect. All later purpose built chip cars were wider across the side sill than the top cord. Not by much but the extra width at the bottom counteracted the chip compressing themselves (!?)

The answer was to rotary dump chips. Some mills were slow to add dumpers but the cost and time savings were too big to ignore.

Ike

On Oct 17, 2021, at 9:25 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Nice work!

I see you have the internal bracing so the car could be rotary dumped. I don’t know if the same arrangement was in the hoppers but we have the drawings for the framework that sat inside the box cars modified for wood chip service. I describe the thing as looking sort of like a child’s swing set welded to the floor that went from side to side and end to end.

I have one of the box cars mol done but I have not decided how much effort to put into the doors. My thought is to load the car with sawdust wood chips but not cover up the bracing completely.

Ike


On Oct 16, 2021, at 11:57 PM, Daniel Bourque <deltabourque@...> wrote:

Finished a few models today. This one’s been sitting on the shelf built but unpainted for several years, so it was good to finally complete it! It’s a kitbashed Southern homebuilt woodchip hopper from a 70T coal hopper.
 
It started as an Atlas Trainman hopper. I removed the top chord and built the side extensions from sheet styrene. The toughest part was building the new ribs to include rivet patterns to match the lower ribs (though I tried to capture the rib extensions being slightly wider as they are on the prototype). According to the Southern Freight Car book, the strange panels on the sides were for some sort of shaker mechanism for helping to dislodge chips.
 
Now I just need an excuse to run a woodchip car on the St Charles Branch… 😊
 
Dan Bourque
 
Sent from Mail for Windows
 
<SOU 132404 70T woodchip hopper.jpg>




locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Marv Clemons
 

Nice pic, Carl. What I'd give to again hear those throaty E's notching out.

Marv


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Carl Ardrey
 

No. 2 departing 1977.
CEA

On 10/11/2021 11:57 AM SouRwyFan via groups.io <blackaerocoupe@...> wrote:
 
 
Thanks Marv,

I remember that track well during the 70's.
Interesting that it was called a "coach yard", maybe coach storage track? He he.

Best Regards, 
Rahl


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

SouRwyFan
 

Thanks Marv,

I remember that track well during the 70's.
Interesting that it was called a "coach yard", maybe coach storage track? He he.

Best Regards, 
Rahl


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Marv Clemons
 

Rahl,

The "Southern Crescent" used the platform serving former station Tracks 9 & 10.  The former Frisco coach yard was a single track accessed by a hand throw switch on either end of Track 10.  It was later stub ended on the north end and used primarily as a private car track.

Marv


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

SouRwyFan
 

So Marv,

I'm curious, it looks like from the aerial view the tracks that were left and used at the small station Southern built and used till Amtrak were actually originally Frisco's coach yard tracks when BT was still open?

Best Regards, 
Rahl


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Marv Clemons
 

Jack,

I meant to mention that signed copies of "Great Temple of Travel" are still available.  Let me know if interested.

Marv


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Marv Clemons
 

Thanks, Jack, I'm glad you found the aerial view helpful. 

There was, in fact, a connecting track which appears as a north leg of a wye visible at the south end of the station, where the Pullman yard joins the ladder.  Look and you'll see a set of diesels sitting on the ladder just north of the 2nd Avenue crossing.  That "leg" was used to interchange passenger movements with the L&N's Union Station, but did not connect with the AGS mains.  The "Goldenrod" and "Vulcan" both headed in and backed out to Puzzle Switches, as did other AGS passenger trains.  I hope this explanation helps rather than confuses ;o)

As for the books, I have a small reserve of maybe a dozen or so copies of the limited edition of "Birmingham Rails" still new in the box and carry a few copies to train shows in case there's an interested buyer.  The price is embarrassing and I won't mention it here, but I do keep a copy listed as a collectible on Amazon if you'd care to take a look.

I did produce a digital copy of the book as a searchable PDF to make the book's content accessible at an affordable price.  It's copy protected on its own thumb drive and sells for a small fraction of the collectible print edition and is available from my Ebay store under "Birminghamrails", or you can order a copy directly from me.

Let me know if I can help you further with your research into the Birmingham District and I'll be happy to oblige.  I should mention I also owe a good deal of my research to the SRHA archives.  We are most fortunate to have Ike's generous assistance and knowledge at our disposal.

Marv


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Marv.

To say the least, that aerial view is inspirational.

I still have a question about one movement. Is there an west leg of a wye on the south side of the station where something like the FM motorcar train, Goldenrod, could head directly out or directly in?

It's helpful seeing the coach yards. Did the other railroads not shown with a coach yard use something close to their main yards? I guess the steam locomotives were hosteled to and from each railroads' roundhouses?

Is your book about the station sold out? I know Birmingham Rails has been for a long time, but I seem to recall that you released an electronic version on a DVD? Is that available.

Thanks for you help, and I am sure that I will have a lot more questions as I study the operations.

Jack Wyatt

On Saturday, October 9, 2021, 01:21:27 PM EDT, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:


Jack,

Here's an labeled photo of Terminal Station and surrounding trackage taken from my book that may help you better understand how trains accessed the station.  For orientation, the view is looking to the northwest.  Let me know if I can help with any further information on the station or passenger train operations.

Marv Clemons


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Marv Clemons
 

Jack,

Here's an labeled photo of Terminal Station and surrounding trackage taken from my book that may help you better understand how trains accessed the station.  For orientation, the view is looking to the northwest.  Let me know if I can help with any further information on the station or passenger train operations.

Marv Clemons


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Carl Ardrey
 

CGA used Southern past Woodlawn Jct to get to BT.
CEA


On Oct 8, 2021, at 9:28 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


Thanks Jason, that was pretty quick drawing.

On the 1935 map I could not tell that the Central of Georgia  had its own line along side the AGS past Woodlawn. Thus the IC - CofGa connecting trains had a through move sort of like the SLSF - Southern ones.

Appreciate it. Now Birmingham Terminal Station operations are a bit clearer to me.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 09:39:53 PM EDT, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


Try this out. It’s a rough drawing I just drew up for you. 
Frisco to and from Memphis to the North. 
IC came in on trackage rights on Frisco. 
Southern to Columbus, MS (old Georgia Pacific) and Sheffield, AL (North Alabama line) to the North. 
AGS thru the wye to Meridian and Chattanooga. 
CG thru the wye to Birmingham. Crossing AGS. 
SAL to Atlanta thru the wye and crossing AGS. 
Southern from Atlanta used the AGS line from Irondale. 

L&N did not go to Terminal but crossed the wye. Sloss also crossed the wye and the AGS had a yard inside the wye to serve downtown industries like Sloss. 

IC, ABC, and SAL jointly owned the Birmingham Terminal which crossed under the AGS and L&N down near Union Station and 14th st to get to the SAL yard two blocks south of where the SAL crossed the AGS to access Terminal Station. 

The other industrial lines also had trackage in the area. Plus the street car system. Birmingham was a spaghetti bowl of rail at its height. 
<Birmingham rrn_1.jpg>


Jason Greene 

On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  
<Birmingham rrn_1.jpg>


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Jason, that was pretty quick drawing.

On the 1935 map I could not tell that the Central of Georgia  had its own line along side the AGS past Woodlawn. Thus the IC - CofGa connecting trains had a through move sort of like the SLSF - Southern ones.

Appreciate it. Now Birmingham Terminal Station operations are a bit clearer to me.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 09:39:53 PM EDT, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


Try this out. It’s a rough drawing I just drew up for you. 
Frisco to and from Memphis to the North. 
IC came in on trackage rights on Frisco. 
Southern to Columbus, MS (old Georgia Pacific) and Sheffield, AL (North Alabama line) to the North. 
AGS thru the wye to Meridian and Chattanooga. 
CG thru the wye to Birmingham. Crossing AGS. 
SAL to Atlanta thru the wye and crossing AGS. 
Southern from Atlanta used the AGS line from Irondale. 

L&N did not go to Terminal but crossed the wye. Sloss also crossed the wye and the AGS had a yard inside the wye to serve downtown industries like Sloss. 

IC, ABC, and SAL jointly owned the Birmingham Terminal which crossed under the AGS and L&N down near Union Station and 14th st to get to the SAL yard two blocks south of where the SAL crossed the AGS to access Terminal Station. 

The other industrial lines also had trackage in the area. Plus the street car system. Birmingham was a spaghetti bowl of rail at its height. 


Jason Greene 

On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Carl. Looks like the AGS crews (south end) got stuck with the extra move.

Jack

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 09:32:28 PM EDT, CARL ARDREY <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:


AGS crews (south end) backed in and backed out at terminal station.   East End crews (and AGS North) headed in and headed out.
CEA


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Jason Greene
 

Try this out. It’s a rough drawing I just drew up for you. 
Frisco to and from Memphis to the North. 
IC came in on trackage rights on Frisco. 
Southern to Columbus, MS (old Georgia Pacific) and Sheffield, AL (North Alabama line) to the North. 
AGS thru the wye to Meridian and Chattanooga. 
CG thru the wye to Birmingham. Crossing AGS. 
SAL to Atlanta thru the wye and crossing AGS. 
Southern from Atlanta used the AGS line from Irondale. 

L&N did not go to Terminal but crossed the wye. Sloss also crossed the wye and the AGS had a yard inside the wye to serve downtown industries like Sloss. 

IC, ABC, and SAL jointly owned the Birmingham Terminal which crossed under the AGS and L&N down near Union Station and 14th st to get to the SAL yard two blocks south of where the SAL crossed the AGS to access Terminal Station. 

The other industrial lines also had trackage in the area. Plus the street car system. Birmingham was a spaghetti bowl of rail at its height. 


Jason Greene 

On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

Carl Ardrey
 

AGS crews (south end) backed in and backed out at terminal station.   East End crews (and AGS North) headed in and headed out.
CEA

On 10/08/2021 7:47 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
 
 
 
Ike, I don't think that I need to look at the contracts. I just am hoping that  someone who spent time around there who can tell me how the trains got in and out.
 
Jack
 
On Friday, October 8, 2021, 08:43:13 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
 
 
Jack:
 
There are quite a few contracts, and Presidents’ files on Birmingham Term  Sta. I cannot quote their contents but Contract No 632 (we have more than 1,100) may have what you are looking for?
 
Here’s the cover..
 
Ike


On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt < cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  
 


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

C J Wyatt
 

Ike, I don't think that I need to look at the contracts. I just am hoping that  someone who spent time around there who can tell me how the trains got in and out.

Jack

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 08:43:13 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Jack:

There are quite a few contracts, and Presidents’ files on Birmingham Term  Sta. I cannot quote their contents but Contract No 632 (we have more than 1,100) may have what you are looking for?

Here’s the cover..

Ike


On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

Another possibility..

Contract 1123?

Places like Birmingham can create a lot of documentation because most contracts were bi-lateral even though multiple railroads were all in the same project.

Ike



On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Re: Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

There are quite a few contracts, and Presidents’ files on Birmingham Term  Sta. I cannot quote their contents but Contract No 632 (we have more than 1,100) may have what you are looking for?

Here’s the cover..

Ike


On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

C J Wyatt
 

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  


locked Re: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

Ignore the Hayes posting! It will have no effect on what we are doing.

Ike

On Oct 8, 2021, at 4:43 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

What does this mean for next steps?

I completed a version of flats 1-27. But was not hearing how to coordinate. 

What next?

Dave 

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Oct 8, 2021, at 2:54 PM, sou1952 hayes via groups.io <Sou1952@...> wrote:


Ike

This work has already been started, I have been copying "F" CARD RECORDS and "P" CARD RECORDS into spread sheets for each car series. I have also created a Car Series Index by car number and railroad. One of the problem's I have run into is that most of the "F" Card RECORDS were scanned on a 8.5x11" scanner and sometimes some information was cut off, and they need to be scanned on a 11x17" scanner so that the entire page gets scanned. I have a larger scanner at home and plan to bring it to the next work session that I will attend. This will probably be in November since I am in Arizona for a family funeral and will be here for the October work session.

I am also doing the same project for passenger cars, since I scanned the "P" CARD RECORDS on my larger scanner some time ago. I also have some "L" CARD RECORDS that I have scanned from SERM that I would like to use to make drawing list for steam locomotives.

If you can wait until November work session I can show how much work has already been accomplished on this project.

Chris Hayes



-----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE EICHELBERGER <geichelberger@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Cc: Hayes, Chris <SOU1952@...>; Kyle Shannon <kyle_shannon@...>; Rick Bell <Rwbrv4@...>
Sent: Sun, Oct 3, 2021 1:55 pm
Subject: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

Would any SRHA members be interested in helping to catalog SRHA’s drawings by entering the pages on the different card lists into a spreadsheet? When that is done, we will link the pages from the Card List (F-Cards) to the drawing inventories Chris Hayes has been working on.

Starting from the card list for a particular car, my example below is from Card List F-70 showing the drawings for 500 40’ auto boxes. Page 1 of F-70 is attached. The columns of the spreadsheet would be the same as Pg 1. That gives us the car-to-drawings list. A spreadsheet ”search” could locate any drawing number that had been entered, then the Cover of that F-Card would give us car information. Many drawings do NOT show which cars they were used on so we need a “reverse” lookup technique if we want to go farther than searching the drawing number, finding the F-Card, going to the F-Card’s Cover.

The cover also may include the Specifications those cars were built under (those are in the archives as well).

To make the work somewhat easier, the F-Cards used a standard form for any car type. As F-70 is for a box car, the entry for “cattle bar” (and others) at the bottom of the page is simply left blank. 

The first column of each of the F-Card’s seven or so pages will be different but a “cut and paste” could be done to avoid typing that after the first F-Card. The form did change periodically, think wood and steel cars would have very different drawings, but there are not that many different forms for the 237 or so F-Cards that have been scanned.

Before anyone volunteers, the Card Lists file includes 4,170 scans, including covers. While I was nutty enough to do those scans, it took a very, very long time! This project calls for splitting the CLs among multiple volunteers.

Because the CLs are scanned, they can be emailed and folks can work on them wherever they are. We just need to coordinate the work.

Contact me at archives@... if you are interested.

Ike

<F-70 Pg1.jpeg>
<F-70 Pg1.jpeg>

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