Date   

locked Re: Medallion

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Bill,

I'd be happy to write the article if I could get to the archives.  It's a challenge to head to Chattanooga for me given work schedules and a lot of trips for funerals (two aunts, one uncle and one cousin in 2019 alone, and a brother-in-law in hospice as we speak--the downside of several generations of big families).

If the documentation can be scanned and shared, I'll draft an article.   Getting the accurate data would sure beat having a "red roof" discussion!

Dave

Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 1:29:58 PM, you wrote:


Green lettering.

Unfortunately, too few well-lit photos of the monogram in the green era exist, and too many of those have been duplicated so many times that the color has shifted. When duplicated, the Southern green tends to go blacker with each succeeding generation. While one never says “never” when referring to Southern Railway, my sense is that the early diesels - like Carl’s photo of the black FTs when new - received cast metal monograms with black lettering and gold-ish background. The early green E-units had a similar monogram, but was its lettering black or green?

When SOU standardized on all diesels being painted green, circa 1948, and when those diesels received the sheet metal monogram (instead of the cast metal one), I think it was green and (imitation) gold. I know because I owned one at one time. And look at the photo of the 0-8-0 at Alexandria - I’m betting that monogram came off a diesel, it sure looks green to me (contrasted with the black of the locomotive).

This is not to say that some sheet metal monograms weren’t black and yellow, but relying on color photographs, especially if they have color shifted, can be misleading. The only way I know to describe definitively the colors of the monograms is through source information, such as drawings and correspondence. This information may be in the SRHA archives.

This would make a good topic for a TIES magazine article. Does anyone want to volunteer to write an article about the colors of Southern’s monograms using authoritative source information?

—Bill




On Jan 7, 2020, at 12:16 PM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Black lettering. <FT Set, Atla, 1946.jpg>



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


locked Re: Medallion

George Eichelberger
 

All of the various monogram drawings, and the specifications for the paint and lettering on the engines that used them are in the archives.

Our next work session is January 17th and 18th. If time and weather permit, we will also check out Norfolk Southern office car No 8 (Southern OC-5) that should be arriving at TVRM this Thursday. It will be trucked down from Madison, Ill on Thursday, probably not arriving in Chattanooga until after dark. Assuming the route will be from Madison (E. St Louis) down the Interstate to Paducah then east to Chattanooga, maybe someone will be able to shoot a video or photo.

Ike


On Jan 7, 2020, at 1:29 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Green lettering. 

Unfortunately, too few well-lit photos of the monogram in the green era exist, and too many of those have been duplicated so many times that the color has shifted. When duplicated, the Southern green tends to go blacker with each succeeding generation. While one never says “never” when referring to Southern Railway, my sense is that the early diesels - like Carl’s photo of the black FTs when new - received cast metal monograms with black lettering and gold-ish background. The early green E-units had a similar monogram, but was its lettering black or green?

When SOU standardized on all diesels being painted green, circa 1948, and when those diesels received the sheet metal monogram (instead of the cast metal one), I think it was green and (imitation) gold. I know because I owned one at one time. And look at the photo of the 0-8-0 at Alexandria - I’m betting that monogram came off a diesel, it sure looks green to me (contrasted with the black of the locomotive).

This is not to say that some sheet metal monograms weren’t black and yellow, but relying on color photographs, especially if they have color shifted, can be misleading. The only way I know to describe definitively the colors of the monograms is through source information, such as drawings and correspondence. This information may be in the SRHA archives. 

This would make a good topic for a TIES magazine article. Does anyone want to volunteer to write an article about the colors of Southern’s monograms using authoritative source information?

—Bill

<Sou 2900 Lenox Rd Atlanta 1957-ish.jpeg><SOU E7 2910 arlington va ca 1953.jpg><SOU-1846-01 Alexandria early 1950s.jpeg><SOU-4144 Charlottesville-VA June 1953.jpeg>

On Jan 7, 2020, at 12:16 PM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Black lettering. <FT Set, Atla, 1946.jpg>



locked Re: Medallion

Bill Schafer
 

Green lettering. 

Unfortunately, too few well-lit photos of the monogram in the green era exist, and too many of those have been duplicated so many times that the color has shifted. When duplicated, the Southern green tends to go blacker with each succeeding generation. While one never says “never” when referring to Southern Railway, my sense is that the early diesels - like Carl’s photo of the black FTs when new - received cast metal monograms with black lettering and gold-ish background. The early green E-units had a similar monogram, but was its lettering black or green?

When SOU standardized on all diesels being painted green, circa 1948, and when those diesels received the sheet metal monogram (instead of the cast metal one), I think it was green and (imitation) gold. I know because I owned one at one time. And look at the photo of the 0-8-0 at Alexandria - I’m betting that monogram came off a diesel, it sure looks green to me (contrasted with the black of the locomotive).

This is not to say that some sheet metal monograms weren’t black and yellow, but relying on color photographs, especially if they have color shifted, can be misleading. The only way I know to describe definitively the colors of the monograms is through source information, such as drawings and correspondence. This information may be in the SRHA archives. 

This would make a good topic for a TIES magazine article. Does anyone want to volunteer to write an article about the colors of Southern’s monograms using authoritative source information?

—Bill



On Jan 7, 2020, at 12:16 PM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Black lettering. <FT Set, Atla, 1946.jpg>


locked Medallion

Carl Ardrey
 

Black lettering.


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

Robert Hanson
 

I've seen color slides that showed black lettering on the medallion.

I may have one or two but I'd have to dig them up.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...>
To: main <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2020 10:48 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

Were the 50’s era F units in early Black or green paint with that medallion?  I don’t think the early black scheme survived that long into the 50’s but there were at least two paint schemes on F’s in ‘the 50’s’.

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:36 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


Dave:

The sheet metal monogram used on F-units in, say, the 1950s, was green and (imitation) gold. I owned one, and donated it to TVRM. 

—Bill

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Ike, 

Never insisted or even suggested that anyone who is knowledgeable about the Southern should use any other term but medallion.

I’ll let someone else answer about the point of my post.  Some Southern box cars had a medallion in aluminum paint.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 10:15 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Dave:

I’m not sure what your point is but this group is about the Southern Railway….the Southern did not use the term “Herald”, why should we use/propagate it?

Ike


On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Were the 50’s era F units in early Black or green paint with that medallion?  I don’t think the early black scheme survived that long into the 50’s but there were at least two paint schemes on F’s in ‘the 50’s’.

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:36 AM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Dave:

The sheet metal monogram used on F-units in, say, the 1950s, was green and (imitation) gold. I owned one, and donated it to TVRM. 

—Bill

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Good Example of a MONOGRAM

Ed Mims
 

Medallion, Monogram, Herald, Logo, Trade Mark, just the more common names used by different companies to portray their name. All have the same meaning (to some extent) in my mind. It seems to be a choice made by the company displaying this type of graphic.

 

Ed Mims


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

I’m not sure what your point is but this group is about the Southern Railway….the Southern did not use the term “Herald”, why should we use/propagate it?

Ike


On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: For the "naturalized" Floridian

George Eichelberger
 

I’ve had a similar conversation with the NS Engineering folks and the ACL/SALHS about what resolutions to use to scan microfilm aperture cards. Both groups told me they thought scanning at 300 dpi was sufficient, NS Engineering told me they used that resolution to save (!) memory. (Older scanners that can handle “decks” of aperture cards typically can only scan at 300 dpi.)

For the SRHA archives scans, including several hundred done from the ACL, SAL, CRR, etc. cards, we typically use 4,800 or even 9,600 DPI for microfilm. Lower resolution scans make dimensions and small details hard to see and may be too low quality for publication.

Also, other than reference scans of file documents using jpeg, we normally save scans as tiff files with no compression.

Sorry to go “technical” but evolving to digital archives needs to consider multiple factors.

Ike



On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:19 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

George,
 
I have saved these for many years, probably from 1967 when John Hawthorn caused us to do a lot of house cleaning to get rid of the pre-merger drawings such as these. The use of the name “monogram” in the title of these is what I gave it and not necessarily that used by the ACL. The one with the purple background was scanned from a “purple folder” as the public timetables were referred to. I think this was the first use of purple on the ACL and dates back to the 1920s..
 
As you might already know most, if not all, of the ACL/SAL aperture cards have been scanned. The scans are not of the best quality. At least not the ones I have seen.
 
Ed
<ACL Logo from  Passenger Time Tables  (1).tif><ACL Monogram and Lettering   001.jpg><ACL Monogram and Lettering   002.jpg><ACL Monogram and Lettering   003.jpg><ACL Monogram and Lettering   004.jpg>


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

Bill Schafer
 

Dave:

The sheet metal monogram used on F-units in, say, the 1950s, was green and (imitation) gold. I owned one, and donated it to TVRM. 

—Bill

On Jan 7, 2020, at 9:32 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

A&Y Dave in MD
 

The list is not a company, but imagine if you went into a store and asked what aisle the Kleenex were in and the clerk said “I’ll let some other staff tell you where they are, but you should know that the correct term is facial tissue.”

I do not know the answer to the actual question, but i know there are 1950 era photos with black lettering in the medallion. The only green lettering I have seen definitively is on the much later ‘wheel on rail’ layout where the slogan is in the ‘rail’ element of the graphic on passenger units.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:


And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit MONOGRAMS

George Eichelberger
 

Thanks Ed!

As a “naturalized” Floridian, I have to admit the ACL medallion lettering style is the absolute classic! Ed’s drawing, like Southern DL-1010 appears to be a tracing of an EMD original. In the case of DL-1010, the EMD drawing numbers are in the left margin. In EMD’s case, “medallion” refers to the painted metal plate attached to the front of locos. (During WWII, the medallion/monogram was painted directly on the SR FT carbody. Research would tell us what EMD and the SR called it in those cases?)

And, as info…the ACL/SALHS Coast Line, SAL and “Family Lines” microfilm drawing aperture cards are at the SRHA archives at TVRM.

The room for the employees model railroad club layout at LaGrange, IL had EMD medallions from many railroads on the walls. (I wonder what happened to them?)

A small version of DL-1010 is attached. It is one of 3,830 scans of diesel drawings in the SRHA archives (with more to be done.)

Ike

PS For whatever reason, the Southern used the steam locomotive drawing prefix, “SL” for a few years into the diesel era.



On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:44 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Here is a good example of a “MEDALLION”.
 
Ed Mims
 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Hanson via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 7:25 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds
 
And EMD called it a "Medallion." 
 

Bob Hanson

-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike 

<ACL C-1010 Locomotive Medallion WJN.tif>


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

Ed Mims
 

Here is a good example of a “MEDALLION”.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Hanson via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 7:25 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

 

And EMD called it a "Medallion."

 

Bob Hanson

-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

Robert Hanson
 

And EMD called it a "Medallion."

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jan 6, 2020 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Cab Unit Heralds

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Re: Cab Unit Heralds

George Eichelberger
 

I'll leave the color question to others but first I'll harp on "herald". The Southern Railway always/only called the round "Southern Serves the South" stencil a "Monogram". Other railroads may have used the term "herald" but not the Southern.

Ike


locked Cab Unit Heralds

Evan Miller
 

Hello everyone, after looking at many color photos of Southern's cab units during the 50's, I have a question. Was the lettering on the herald green or black? Most models I've seen have green lettering, as well as the restored FP7 6133. However after looking and looking, it definitely appears the lettering was black. I'd appreciate any help with this question.

-Evan Miller


locked Re: The SCL Merger

Robert Hanson
 

There's a lot of that "infinite wisdom" going around.

A scanned image is not the same as an original document, and frequently they'll scan a contract or document without scanning the supporting documents.

Do you have a question about this document?

Tough.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: sgwarner88 <sgwarner88@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Jan 4, 2020 12:25 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] The SCL Merger

One item that we obtained from the ACL/SAL merger that actually worked was the Savannah Interchange.  SCL/CSXT has (or had) the responsibility to handle CGA-SCL/CSXT interchange both ways year round. My counterpart at CSXT, Dave Houchin, one day called and said that we should equally handle responsibilities, which would of course require adding a 6 month job at Dillard Yd.  I researched the file and found a letter (not a formal agreement) that said that as a merger condition SCL would handle the I/C from both SCL yards to/from Dillard. I sent him a copy and told him that we would not agree to change a merger condition (same as the VGN/N&W Guyandot River 1959 agreement to Stone Coal Jct. - an arbitration upheld continuing this agreement).  Dave backed off.

Since NS in it's infinite wisdom has scanned the basic Joint Facility agreement files in ATL and destroyed the real files, and since this letter would not appear to be a formal agreement, I am reasonably sure that this and other meaningful correspondence and precedent has disappeared.


locked Re: The SCL Merger

Stephen Warner
 

One item that we obtained from the ACL/SAL merger that actually worked was the Savannah Interchange.  SCL/CSXT has (or had) the responsibility to handle CGA-SCL/CSXT interchange both ways year round. My counterpart at CSXT, Dave Houchin, one day called and said that we should equally handle responsibilities, which would of course require adding a 6 month job at Dillard Yd.  I researched the file and found a letter (not a formal agreement) that said that as a merger condition SCL would handle the I/C from both SCL yards to/from Dillard. I sent him a copy and told him that we would not agree to change a merger condition (same as the VGN/N&W Guyandot River 1959 agreement to Stone Coal Jct. - an arbitration upheld continuing this agreement).  Dave backed off.

Since NS in it's infinite wisdom has scanned the basic Joint Facility agreement files in ATL and destroyed the real files, and since this letter would not appear to be a formal agreement, I am reasonably sure that this and other meaningful correspondence and precedent has disappeared.


locked Modeling SR Heavyweight Passenger Cars

Mike Burns
 

I've got two questions pertaining to modeling Southern passenger cars. 1) When did Southern start applying horizontal gold stripe to the bottoms of Pullman green passenger cars and 2) when did Southern start using silver/stainless steel doors on head end cars? I'm modeling a mid to late 1950's Sou. Rwy. secondary train and would like to know how to proceed on these points. Thanks, Mike Burns 

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