Date   

locked Re: Samuel Spencer

Robert Hanson
 

Apparently I missed something - are they going to move the statue?

I believe that the statue is sitting right where it should sit - in front of the NS building in Atlanta and if it should be moved at all, it should be moved to the new NS corporate HQ building when it is completed.

My opinion - and my opinion, plus $2.00, will get you a copy of an Atlanta newspaper on any weekday.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 10:08 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Samuel Spencer

Unfortunately, people are become less likely to judge a historical person by the context of his times. Samuel Spencer was only a teenager at the time seeing his state being invaded by outside forces.

While on the surface, Spencer Shops appears to be the proper place for Samuel, you have to ask where he would he be safe from "the crazies". North Carolina recently allowed the statue of another Confederate soldier named Sam to be pulled down.

I find it sad that the Georgia born Samuel Spencer cannot reside at the NSC headquarters in Georgia. The economic growth in the Southeast which his Southern Railway System facilitated helped to raise the standards of living for all people in the region.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, December 19, 2019, 08:45:04 AM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


I understand there is now a question about what to do with Mr. Spencer’s statue that sits in front of the David Goode building in Atlanta. SRHA members have suggested its proper home is at the shops at Spencer, NC. Although some have mentioned moving it to TVRM, I think the consensus (for what it is worth) is that Spencer is the proper place if not at the NS headquarters.

We have NS President Wick Moorman to thank for making the effort to retrieve the statue from obscurity in Atlanta and moving it to Goode building. In my personal opinion, any railroad or corporation that forgets or ignores its history (NS, in all of its predecessors has as much as anyone) is “pulling the pin” on what has gone before.

(BTW) In the SRHA file on the statue’s dedication, it mentions how SR employees paid for it with deductions from their pay envelopes. The “chits” employees signed for the deductions were sealed in a box below the statue. When the statue’s base was moved, the box was located and opened. Unfortunately, water had entered it long ago and the chits were simply a mass of rotten paper. While the effort failed, it was a fine example of NS wanting to preserve its past.





locked Re: Samuel Spencer

Robert Hanson
 

Jack, you may be right.

All I had to go on was the biography, apparently given to dignitaries, issued for the dedication of the memorial.

I've done nothing to verify the information, so you'll get no argument from me.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 9:52 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Samuel Spencer

Thank you Bob for that information.

I think the Vicksburg credit is wrong. The unit which he later joined, Nelson Rangers, was part of the Vicksburg campaign. However at the time that Vicksburg took place,  Samuel Spencer appears to have been at at GMI. I think his first combat likely was at Resaca with the GMI Cadets and sometime during the Atlanta Campaign he probably switched over to Nelson Rangers. The answer might be in the letters at the Atlanta History Center. Maybe I can get down there sometime and look.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, December 19, 2019, 08:18:34 AM EST, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <rhanson669@...> wrote:


According to a biography in my collection that was issued at the dedication of the Spencer Memorial in 1910, Samuel Spencer also served at Vicksburg and later under General Nathan Bedford Forrest.  He also served under General Hood in the Atlanta and Nashville campaigns.

The biography makes no mention of his rank, other than the fact that he enlisted as a private at the age of 16, probably in 1863, as his birthday was March 2nd.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 1:10 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Samuel Spencer

Nelson Rangers - Georgia:


Probably did not join until early 1864. See manuscript reference to his letters:


Prior to the Nelson Rangers, he was a cadet at the Georgian Military Institute, company B:


Some have questions about whether part of his service was made up, but most Confederate cavalry units did not keep good service records and burned most of the ones they had by the end of the war. I think the account of his service is truthful.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 10:42:15 PM EST, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Hi everyone, I have a few questions on Spencer:

I know he claimed to have served in the Confederate army, but I can't seem to find what unit he served with. Does anyone know the answer to this?

Details of his personal life are quite scarce. Does anyone know anything regarding his personality, political views, interests, or anything of that nature?


locked Re: Samuel Spencer

C J Wyatt
 

Unfortunately, people are become less likely to judge a historical person by the context of his times. Samuel Spencer was only a teenager at the time seeing his state being invaded by outside forces.

While on the surface, Spencer Shops appears to be the proper place for Samuel, you have to ask where he would he be safe from "the crazies". North Carolina recently allowed the statue of another Confederate soldier named Sam to be pulled down.

I find it sad that the Georgia born Samuel Spencer cannot reside at the NSC headquarters in Georgia. The economic growth in the Southeast which his Southern Railway System facilitated helped to raise the standards of living for all people in the region.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, December 19, 2019, 08:45:04 AM EST, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


I understand there is now a question about what to do with Mr. Spencer’s statue that sits in front of the David Goode building in Atlanta. SRHA members have suggested its proper home is at the shops at Spencer, NC. Although some have mentioned moving it to TVRM, I think the consensus (for what it is worth) is that Spencer is the proper place if not at the NS headquarters.

We have NS President Wick Moorman to thank for making the effort to retrieve the statue from obscurity in Atlanta and moving it to Goode building. In my personal opinion, any railroad or corporation that forgets or ignores its history (NS, in all of its predecessors has as much as anyone) is “pulling the pin” on what has gone before.

(BTW) In the SRHA file on the statue’s dedication, it mentions how SR employees paid for it with deductions from their pay envelopes. The “chits” employees signed for the deductions were sealed in a box below the statue. When the statue’s base was moved, the box was located and opened. Unfortunately, water had entered it long ago and the chits were simply a mass of rotten paper. While the effort failed, it was a fine example of NS wanting to preserve its past.





locked Re: Samuel Spencer

C J Wyatt
 

Thank you Bob for that information.

I think the Vicksburg credit is wrong. The unit which he later joined, Nelson Rangers, was part of the Vicksburg campaign. However at the time that Vicksburg took place,  Samuel Spencer appears to have been at at GMI. I think his first combat likely was at Resaca with the GMI Cadets and sometime during the Atlanta Campaign he probably switched over to Nelson Rangers. The answer might be in the letters at the Atlanta History Center. Maybe I can get down there sometime and look.

Jack Wyatt

On Thursday, December 19, 2019, 08:18:34 AM EST, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <rhanson669@...> wrote:


According to a biography in my collection that was issued at the dedication of the Spencer Memorial in 1910, Samuel Spencer also served at Vicksburg and later under General Nathan Bedford Forrest.  He also served under General Hood in the Atlanta and Nashville campaigns.

The biography makes no mention of his rank, other than the fact that he enlisted as a private at the age of 16, probably in 1863, as his birthday was March 2nd.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 1:10 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Samuel Spencer

Nelson Rangers - Georgia:


Probably did not join until early 1864. See manuscript reference to his letters:


Prior to the Nelson Rangers, he was a cadet at the Georgian Military Institute, company B:


Some have questions about whether part of his service was made up, but most Confederate cavalry units did not keep good service records and burned most of the ones they had by the end of the war. I think the account of his service is truthful.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 10:42:15 PM EST, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Hi everyone, I have a few questions on Spencer:

I know he claimed to have served in the Confederate army, but I can't seem to find what unit he served with. Does anyone know the answer to this?

Details of his personal life are quite scarce. Does anyone know anything regarding his personality, political views, interests, or anything of that nature?


locked Re: Samuel Spencer

George Eichelberger
 

I understand there is now a question about what to do with Mr. Spencer’s statue that sits in front of the David Goode building in Atlanta. SRHA members have suggested its proper home is at the shops at Spencer, NC. Although some have mentioned moving it to TVRM, I think the consensus (for what it is worth) is that Spencer is the proper place if not at the NS headquarters.

We have NS President Wick Moorman to thank for making the effort to retrieve the statue from obscurity in Atlanta and moving it to Goode building. In my personal opinion, any railroad or corporation that forgets or ignores its history (NS, in all of its predecessors has as much as anyone) is “pulling the pin” on what has gone before.

(BTW) In the SRHA file on the statue’s dedication, it mentions how SR employees paid for it with deductions from their pay envelopes. The “chits” employees signed for the deductions were sealed in a box below the statue. When the statue’s base was moved, the box was located and opened. Unfortunately, water had entered it long ago and the chits were simply a mass of rotten paper. While the effort failed, it was a fine example of NS wanting to preserve its past.



On Dec 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

According to a biography in my collection that was issued at the dedication of the Spencer Memorial in 1910, Samuel Spencer also served at Vicksburg and later under General Nathan Bedford Forrest.  He also served under General Hood in the Atlanta and Nashville campaigns.

The biography makes no mention of his rank, other than the fact that he enlisted as a private at the age of 16, probably in 1863, as his birthday was March 2nd.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 1:10 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Samuel Spencer

Nelson Rangers - Georgia:


Probably did not join until early 1864. See manuscript reference to his letters:


Prior to the Nelson Rangers, he was a cadet at the Georgian Military Institute, company B:


Some have questions about whether part of his service was made up, but most Confederate cavalry units did not keep good service records and burned most of the ones they had by the end of the war. I think the account of his service is truthful.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 10:42:15 PM EST, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Hi everyone, I have a few questions on Spencer:

I know he claimed to have served in the Confederate army, but I can't seem to find what unit he served with. Does anyone know the answer to this?

Details of his personal life are quite scarce. Does anyone know anything regarding his personality, political views, interests, or anything of that nature?


locked Re: Samuel Spencer

Robert Hanson
 

According to a biography in my collection that was issued at the dedication of the Spencer Memorial in 1910, Samuel Spencer also served at Vicksburg and later under General Nathan Bedford Forrest.  He also served under General Hood in the Atlanta and Nashville campaigns.

The biography makes no mention of his rank, other than the fact that he enlisted as a private at the age of 16, probably in 1863, as his birthday was March 2nd.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 1:10 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Samuel Spencer

Nelson Rangers - Georgia:


Probably did not join until early 1864. See manuscript reference to his letters:


Prior to the Nelson Rangers, he was a cadet at the Georgian Military Institute, company B:


Some have questions about whether part of his service was made up, but most Confederate cavalry units did not keep good service records and burned most of the ones they had by the end of the war. I think the account of his service is truthful.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 10:42:15 PM EST, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Hi everyone, I have a few questions on Spencer:

I know he claimed to have served in the Confederate army, but I can't seem to find what unit he served with. Does anyone know the answer to this?

Details of his personal life are quite scarce. Does anyone know anything regarding his personality, political views, interests, or anything of that nature?


locked Re: Samuel Spencer

C J Wyatt
 

Nelson Rangers - Georgia:


Probably did not join until early 1864. See manuscript reference to his letters:


Prior to the Nelson Rangers, he was a cadet at the Georgian Military Institute, company B:


Some have questions about whether part of his service was made up, but most Confederate cavalry units did not keep good service records and burned most of the ones they had by the end of the war. I think the account of his service is truthful.

Jack Wyatt






On Wednesday, December 18, 2019, 10:42:15 PM EST, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Hi everyone, I have a few questions on Spencer:

I know he claimed to have served in the Confederate army, but I can't seem to find what unit he served with. Does anyone know the answer to this?

Details of his personal life are quite scarce. Does anyone know anything regarding his personality, political views, interests, or anything of that nature?


locked Samuel Spencer

James Walton
 

Hi everyone, I have a few questions on Spencer:

I know he claimed to have served in the Confederate army, but I can't seem to find what unit he served with. Does anyone know the answer to this?

Details of his personal life are quite scarce. Does anyone know anything regarding his personality, political views, interests, or anything of that nature?


locked Ed King contact me off-list pls

Jim King
 

Hey Cuz .. contact me off-list please.  I have a question but need your current email addy to send.  Thx.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


--
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

George Eichelberger
 

Dept of Corrections.....

The Southern fuel oil tank cars were painted black. That would have satisfied the non-revenue car color requirement.

Ike


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

George Eichelberger
 

Ed:

That drawing was for a series of tank cars to carry fuel oil, not the phosphate cars (see attached). The fuel oil cars were built under ACF Lot No. 19-15087 and numbered in the non-revenue 995000-995007 series. (By October, 1973, non-revenue rolling stock was supposed to be given unique road number series and paint schemes. The Southern adopted orange for MoW cars and preceded revenue road numbers with “99” to make them unique. The idea was to prevent MoW equipment from being interchanged.

Freight car brown on the company fuel oil cars would not seem to have met that part of the requirement although the 99 road numbers would have. (PS: for other MoW equipment, when the edict came down to paint MoW cars differently, orange was chosen…..for the VP Mechanical (or Engineering?), a Univ of TN grad, the choice must have been obvious.)

The attached copy of SF-30291 is for phosphate tank cars Sou 300-346 (the same as the tank drawing posted yesterday). It is a better than perfect example to illustrate why we say ONLY use stencil drawings for lettering placement, not “font” design. The hand drawn stencils on SF-30291 are painfully obvious.

Ike



On Dec 18, 2019, at 10:41 AM, Edwin Locklin <elocklin@...> wrote:

Ike,
 
Thanks for this copy of the ACF stencil.  Can you tell us what the numbers were that Southern issued for this car?
 
Ed Locklin at mp367.
 
 
 
 
 
From: George Eichelberger
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 9:10 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Vertagreen tank cars
 
Here is a letter size copy of ACF stencil drawing 4-F-3205 of their version of the Southern 100T tank cars used in Phosphoric acid service.

Ike


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

 

Ike,
 
Thanks for this copy of the ACF stencil.  Can you tell us what the numbers were that Southern issued for this car?
 
Ed Locklin at mp367.
 
 
 
 
 

From: George Eichelberger
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 9:10 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Vertagreen tank cars
 
Here is a letter size copy of ACF stencil drawing 4-F-3205 of their version of the Southern 100T tank cars used in Phosphoric acid service.

Ike


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

George Eichelberger
 

Scott:

I have to wonder how did loaded 100T tank cars effected the ride and handling of passenger trains. (Can someone say if the brake valves had to be adjusted for pass service pressure?) I’ve attached a size reduced, low res scan of drawing SF-21144 showing just the tank (!) for cars 300-346.

Years ago, I heard how cuts of “interior” phosphate cars (to midwestern farmers, not for export) in NB freights on the Clinchfield and C&O effected train handling. I assume there were interior shipments off the Coast Line in Fla. to the L&N but I don’t recall ever hearing or seeking that in the 60s or 70s.

Ike


On Dec 17, 2019, at 10:17 AM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

That drawing was specifically for the fuel cars built in 1973 so there is some minor differences in the data.  For instance, the 1962 built tanks were type ICC111A100W1, and of course, rubber lined.

This has been a most enlightening discussion for me.  I had seen the cars but never knew they were built for revenue service.  And on the back of a passenger train!  Can you imagine Amtrak's reaction if ypu suggested doing that today?!?!


Scott Chatfield


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

D. Scott Chatfield
 

That drawing was specifically for the fuel cars built in 1973 so there is some minor differences in the data.  For instance, the 1962 built tanks were type ICC111A100W1, and of course, rubber lined.

This has been a most enlightening discussion for me.  I had seen the cars but never knew they were built for revenue service.  And on the back of a passenger train!  Can you imagine Amtrak's reaction if ypu suggested doing that today?!?!


Scott Chatfield


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

George Eichelberger
 

Here is a letter size copy of ACF stencil drawing 4-F-3205 of their version of the Southern 100T tank cars used in Phosphoric acid service.

Ike


locked Re: Southern Railway Forum

George Eichelberger
 

The description of the SouthernRailway @group.io is:

Southern Railway Historical and Modeling Information Interchange main@SouthernRailway.groups.io

Southern Railway Historical and Modeling Information Interchange

A group to discuss, ask questions and provide historical and modeling information about the Southern Railway System its predecessors and subsidiaries. It will also be used to publish and distribute drawings, notes, photos and correspondence from users and the Southern Railway Historical Association's archives at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum in Chattanooga, TN.


This site is not a forum about other groups, forming other groups or extensive conversations about railroads other than the Southern. Please take this conversation OFF the "Southern Railway Historical and Modeling Information Interchange”.

Ike


On Dec 16, 2019, at 8:08 PM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:

Certainly, discussions of today's systems, like Norfolk Southern and CSX will be expected. 

The main hurdle here is gaining the support of the various historical societies. I expect many will simply not be interested, or may wish to have people directly contact them, rather than an associated forum site.

On Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 03:29 Gino Damen <g.damen@...> wrote:
James,

When it could cover the past and the present it would be great.

Gino Damen
The Netherlands

On 15-12-2019 at 05:08, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
Yes, I was hoping a forum covering the South as a whole would be a good idea.

On Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 23:07 Ryan Harris <ryan.harris@...> wrote:
Are you talking about a forum for modeling railroads of the southern US and not just the Southern Railway? If so I think that would be a good idea.
--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX







locked Re: Southern Railway Forum

James Walton
 

Certainly, discussions of today's systems, like Norfolk Southern and CSX will be expected. 

The main hurdle here is gaining the support of the various historical societies. I expect many will simply not be interested, or may wish to have people directly contact them, rather than an associated forum site.

On Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 03:29 Gino Damen <g.damen@...> wrote:
James,

When it could cover the past and the present it would be great.

Gino Damen
The Netherlands

On 15-12-2019 at 05:08, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
Yes, I was hoping a forum covering the South as a whole would be a good idea.

On Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 23:07 Ryan Harris <ryan.harris@...> wrote:
Are you talking about a forum for modeling railroads of the southern US and not just the Southern Railway? If so I think that would be a good idea.
--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX



locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

As the Southern-ACL interchange was in Tifton, GA. The MTs would have to get there via B’ham (on the NA) or through Chattanooga then through Rome and Atlanta to Tifton the GS&F. Did you ever see empties through Rome?

Ike


On Dec 15, 2019, at 2:03 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I wonder how the returning empties were handled?

On Saturday, December 14, 2019, 10:18:46 AM EST, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:


Thanks, gents, for the plethora of information on the Vertagreen movements.  From your responses I've learned the shipments originated in Rockland, Florida and were routed Waycross-Jesup-Birmingham-Sheffield-Vertagreen, AL.

For forensic purposes, I've attached a copy of the morning consist copied at BT on June 26 1965 showing the tank cars coming in on the rear of #7.  I'm sure you'll recognize the other Southern consists, along with #33, SAL's Silver Comet.

I switched these cars on the rear of #7 & 8 while working the towers at Birmingham and Atlanta terminals. It was really strange seeing them tacked on to the rear of the heavyweight Pullman out of Atlanta. But this was the Brosnan era when passenger trains had become primarily mail, express, and in this case, expedited freight carriers.

Regards,
Marv


locked Re: Vertagreen tank cars

George Eichelberger
 

All of the general arrt and detail drawings for both the ACF and GATX versions are in the SRHA archives. The Gen Arr’ts and stencil drawings are scanned. I am just back from this weekend’s archives work session. When I get semi-organized, I’ll post some downsized versions.

I don’t have a photo of the model, but years ago I cut down an Athern LP gas tank car and came up with a reasonable HO version. The tank car decals/stencils were standard Southern sizes and look quite good on a freight car brown 100-T tank car.

Ike

PS The “F-Card” (drawing list) and Specifications for just about ALL of the Southern’s freight equipment is now scanned and loaded on the network file server. The F-cards represent 4,122 page scans and the Specs are 5,114 scanned pages. There are thousands of freight car drawings scanned.

SRHA’s plan is to make all of that available, but we have not figured out how much they should cost, different prices for SRHA members and non-members, if we should let (major) donors have access to everything scanned or what. We would appreciate any idea or comments.




On Dec 15, 2019, at 12:49 AM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

> Does anyone have a general arrangement diagram for these cars? The full length center sill and welded construction are definitely a unique features that could be modeled. I know SOU 992454 at Spencer is one of the members of this series. 

These tanks are shortened versions of the diesel fuel tanks ACF built for the CB&Q and GN in the mid '60s.  In other words, Athearn's "62-foot tank car".  The tank barrel might be a tad slimmer.

I couldn't find a GA drawing for them in my ca-1970 GA book.  Something else to look for in the archives.  Couldn't make it this week.  Hope to be there next month.

Merry Christmas!

Scott Chatfield


locked Re: Southern Railway Forum

Gino Damen
 

James,

When it could cover the past and the present it would be great.

Gino Damen
The Netherlands


On 15-12-2019 at 05:08, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
Yes, I was hoping a forum covering the South as a whole would be a good idea.

On Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 23:07 Ryan Harris <ryan.harris@...> wrote:
Are you talking about a forum for modeling railroads of the southern US and not just the Southern Railway? If so I think that would be a good idea.
--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


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