Date   

locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

James Walton
 

I realize now I should asked when TT&TO was done away with, rather than when CTC was implemented.


On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:51 James Walton via groups.io <whovianwil=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ah okay, I'd forgotten about ABS. The ancient TT&TO system was starting to disappear on many railroads by the 40s.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:43 D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:
The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

James Walton
 

Ah okay, I'd forgotten about ABS. The ancient TT&TO system was starting to disappear on many railroads by the 40s.


On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:43 D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:
The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

D. Scott Chatfield
 

The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield


locked Re: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

Hal Pridgen
 

I just thought I would point out that groups.io has a built in database feature that can be directly accessed from the groups.io web page.  So if you read these posts on your email, you would never see this feature. 

It’s very basic, and not particularly user friendly until you get familiar with it. The data can be exported to excel or other spreadsheet format. It’s also searchable, but I don’t think that is one of it's strong points either. 


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

George Eichelberger
 

Connecting control points and track circuits from along a route to CTC machines was not a trivial (or inexpensive) project. The Southern's C&S Dept. was innovative when they adapted the signaling (E&M in tech talk) leads from analog voice channels to individual control points. Getting CTC codes from dispatch centers to individual microwave towers was relatively easy but in most cases copper cables were used to extend the MW channels from the microwave towers to the CPs.

Many of those cables dated to when buried cables replaced open wires on poles for line side telephones. Putting new cables in the ground to reach to MW towers that were around 20 miles apart for CTC was a significant cost.

Now, the MW is all digital, data radio is used to get to most CPs and everything uses the Internet Protocols (TCP/IP) that provides alternate routes to everything. As far as I could determine, NS was the first railroad anywhere to use “IP” for train control on a large scale. 

(The NS entire data network, including Conrail, was my design. Southern’s (useful, usually) “if it ain’t broke” mentality made “selling” a radically new network idea really difficult. I have to compliment NS management on their decision to spend $50M to do the upgrade at the same time CSX was outsourcing everything to ATT. I’ll never forget David Goode asking “Do you realize you are asking me to spend $50M when CSX is getting rid of their comms systems?" The answer must have been good because it represents what I consider a competitive advantage for NS to this day!)

Ike


On Oct 4, 2021, at 10:53 AM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:

Odd to imagine TT&TO still being used so late.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 10:25 CARL ARDREY <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
CTC wasn't common on Western Lines.  Southern liked to make sure the ROI was there.
CEA
On 10/03/2021 9:14 PM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Woah, that's surprisingly late for such an important part of the Southern's network. Any reason it took so long?

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 09:19 CARL ARDREY < carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
1981
CEA
On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton < whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

James Walton
 

Odd to imagine TT&TO still being used so late.


On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 10:25 CARL ARDREY <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
CTC wasn't common on Western Lines.  Southern liked to make sure the ROI was there.
CEA
On 10/03/2021 9:14 PM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Woah, that's surprisingly late for such an important part of the Southern's network. Any reason it took so long?

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 09:19 CARL ARDREY < carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
1981
CEA
On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton < whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

Carl Ardrey
 

CTC wasn't common on Western Lines.  Southern liked to make sure the ROI was there.
CEA

On 10/03/2021 9:14 PM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Woah, that's surprisingly late for such an important part of the Southern's network. Any reason it took so long?

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 09:19 CARL ARDREY < carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
1981
CEA
On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton < whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

James Walton
 

Woah, that's surprisingly late for such an important part of the Southern's network. Any reason it took so long?


On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 09:19 CARL ARDREY <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
1981
CEA
On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


locked Re: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

Charles Harris
 

Hi  Interesting project.

Is it possible to add a photo of the complete page 1 form, including the first column and also the full from for page 2.  What format is this in a the moment ?    jpg?

The spreadsheet that would be used is    Excel ?

An example of expected completed spreadsheet layout would be great with the expected result.

Thanks

Charles Harris
_._,_._,_


locked Re: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

Dave Queener
 

Ike,

I would be happy to help with the F cards. Just assign the lower numbered ones to me, principally the wood cars, since that is what I have been working on already.

Dave

On 10/3/2021 1:54 PM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Would any SRHA members be interested in helping to catalog SRHA’s drawings by entering the pages on the different card lists into a spreadsheet? When that is done, we will link the pages from the Card List (F-Cards) to the drawing inventories Chris Hayes has been working on.

Starting from the card list for a particular car, my example below is from Card List F-70 showing the drawings for 500 40’ auto boxes. Page 1 of F-70 is attached. The columns of the spreadsheet would be the same as Pg 1. That gives us the car-to-drawings list. A spreadsheet ”search” could locate any drawing number that had been entered, then the Cover of that F-Card would give us car information. Many drawings do NOT show which cars they were used on so we need a “reverse” lookup technique if we want to go farther than searching the drawing number, finding the F-Card, going to the F-Card’s Cover.

The cover also may include the Specifications those cars were built under (those are in the archives as well).

To make the work somewhat easier, the F-Cards used a standard form for any car type. As F-70 is for a box car, the entry for “cattle bar” (and others) at the bottom of the page is simply left blank. 

The first column of each of the F-Card’s seven or so pages will be different but a “cut and paste” could be done to avoid typing that after the first F-Card. The form did change periodically, think wood and steel cars would have very different drawings, but there are not that many different forms for the 237 or so F-Cards that have been scanned.

Before anyone volunteers, the Card Lists file includes 4,170 scans, including covers. While I was nutty enough to do those scans, it took a very, very long time! This project calls for splitting the CLs among multiple volunteers.

Because the CLs are scanned, they can be emailed and folks can work on them wherever they are. We just need to coordinate the work.

Contact me at archives@... if you are interested.

Ike




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locked Re: Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

George Eichelberger
 

One other thing…..

Having some form of lookup process will help is a big way.

A single Card List can include different car series (note the three pairs of columns). Those series may/may not be from the same Specification. One CL can refer to multiple car series/specs but one Specification may have been used for different orders of basically the same car…those could point to different Card Lists.

Confusing, I realize, but there is not rigid car series-Card List-Specification relationship.

We can inventory the drawings but only by going through the drawings listed in the CLs will we discover drawing numbers we do not have.

Ike


On Oct 3, 2021, at 1:54 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Would any SRHA members be interested in helping to catalog SRHA’s drawings by entering the pages on the different card lists into a spreadsheet? When that is done, we will link the pages from the Card List (F-Cards) to the drawing inventories Chris Hayes has been working on.

Starting from the card list for a particular car, my example below is from Card List F-70 showing the drawings for 500 40’ auto boxes. Page 1 of F-70 is attached. The columns of the spreadsheet would be the same as Pg 1. That gives us the car-to-drawings list. A spreadsheet ”search” could locate any drawing number that had been entered, then the Cover of that F-Card would give us car information. Many drawings do NOT show which cars they were used on so we need a “reverse” lookup technique if we want to go farther than searching the drawing number, finding the F-Card, going to the F-Card’s Cover.

The cover also may include the Specifications those cars were built under (those are in the archives as well).

To make the work somewhat easier, the F-Cards used a standard form for any car type. As F-70 is for a box car, the entry for “cattle bar” (and others) at the bottom of the page is simply left blank. 

The first column of each of the F-Card’s seven or so pages will be different but a “cut and paste” could be done to avoid typing that after the first F-Card. The form did change periodically, think wood and steel cars would have very different drawings, but there are not that many different forms for the 237 or so F-Cards that have been scanned.

Before anyone volunteers, the Card Lists file includes 4,170 scans, including covers. While I was nutty enough to do those scans, it took a very, very long time! This project calls for splitting the CLs among multiple volunteers.

Because the CLs are scanned, they can be emailed and folks can work on them wherever they are. We just need to coordinate the work.

Contact me at archives@... if you are interested.

Ike

<F-70 Pg1.jpeg>


locked Entering Card Lists in Spreadsheets

George Eichelberger
 

Would any SRHA members be interested in helping to catalog SRHA’s drawings by entering the pages on the different card lists into a spreadsheet? When that is done, we will link the pages from the Card List (F-Cards) to the drawing inventories Chris Hayes has been working on.

Starting from the card list for a particular car, my example below is from Card List F-70 showing the drawings for 500 40’ auto boxes. Page 1 of F-70 is attached. The columns of the spreadsheet would be the same as Pg 1. That gives us the car-to-drawings list. A spreadsheet ”search” could locate any drawing number that had been entered, then the Cover of that F-Card would give us car information. Many drawings do NOT show which cars they were used on so we need a “reverse” lookup technique if we want to go farther than searching the drawing number, finding the F-Card, going to the F-Card’s Cover.

The cover also may include the Specifications those cars were built under (those are in the archives as well).

To make the work somewhat easier, the F-Cards used a standard form for any car type. As F-70 is for a box car, the entry for “cattle bar” (and others) at the bottom of the page is simply left blank. 

The first column of each of the F-Card’s seven or so pages will be different but a “cut and paste” could be done to avoid typing that after the first F-Card. The form did change periodically, think wood and steel cars would have very different drawings, but there are not that many different forms for the 237 or so F-Cards that have been scanned.

Before anyone volunteers, the Card Lists file includes 4,170 scans, including covers. While I was nutty enough to do those scans, it took a very, very long time! This project calls for splitting the CLs among multiple volunteers.

Because the CLs are scanned, they can be emailed and folks can work on them wherever they are. We just need to coordinate the work.

Contact me at archives@... if you are interested.

Ike


locked Re: CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

Carl Ardrey
 

1981
CEA

On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


locked CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line

James Walton
 

Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


locked Re: What car does this drawing show?

Dave Queener
 

Hey Ike,

I did not get an attachment.

Dave

On 10/1/2021 2:07 PM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Attached is one of the very few linens in the SRHA collection that does not have a title block or date. It is obviously a box car but the odd strapping on the sides of the car suggests it is a wood side car with bracing on the outside. The drawing date is probably prior to 1920 and it’s a 36’ car so we know it is not all-steel.

Because we have the linen (original drawing) it does not appear to be a proposed design from a car builder. Any ideas?

Ike



-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com  (865) 333-5712

Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
www.StPaulPres.com  (865) 209-5654

Virus-free. www.avg.com


locked What car does this drawing show?

George Eichelberger
 

Attached is one of the very few linens in the SRHA collection that does not have a title block or date. It is obviously a box car but the odd strapping on the sides of the car suggests it is a wood side car with bracing on the outside. The drawing date is probably prior to 1920 and it’s a 36’ car so we know it is not all-steel.

Because we have the linen (original drawing) it does not appear to be a proposed design from a car builder. Any ideas?

Ike




locked Re: Gift and Challenge

George Eichelberger
 

I’ve attached two examples from Card Index ("F-Card”) F-13 that Dave mentioned. Virtually all of the F-Cards for Southern railway freight cars and passenger cars (P-Cards) are in the SRHA archives. As you can see from David’s research, they are the “Rosetta Stone” for using the rolling stock drawings.

F-13 is somewhat unusual because it includes drawings for three different series of cars using the same basic design. As he mentioned, SF-1013 is shown for cars 13100 to 14099. (Most drawings do not specify the cars they illustrate, the Card Lists are invaluable.)

Card lists are typically about seven pages using a standard form for all types of cars. Thus blank entries are not missing drawings, that item is not used on the Card’s car. The form changed from the wooden to steel car eras.

Ike

PS We have been thinking about doing an on-line presentation of drawings and many other topics. Without help getting things like that done, guessing at a schedule is not possible.





On Sep 30, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:

Hi Ike,

SF-1013 is the Haskell & Barker built version of the 30 Ton Standard Boxcar shown on SF-1002. SF-1013 is referenced on F Card F-13, Column A, as the general arrangement drawing for SR box cars numbered 13100 to 14099. From my research among the aperture cards, the SRHA has almost every part drawing for one of these cars. These have already been scanned, and should be on the hard drive of the main archives computer.

I used general arrangement SF-1002, which you very kindly gave me access to several years ago, along with Card F-15, column A, to create my AutoCAD drawings of one of these cars, namely AC&F built car #15873, from which I based by F scale kit. I am now working up a SolidWorks version of the same for a much improved, and more detailed, 1/20th scale kit.

I should add that the main differences between the Haskell & Barker car and the AC&F version are the cast steel body bolster and draft rigging that H&B used, necessitating different spacing of the intermediate sills. H&B also omitted the Jones door hardware and most likely the sheet metal hood covering the door track in favor of their own hardware, for which the SRHA has a part drawing.

Here are pics of two of these cars:

<SR 15873 Wooden Boxcar (1).jpg>

<SR 183318(crop).jpeg>

Cheers,

Dave Queener

(865) 209-5654 (c)


locked Re: Gift and Challenge

George Eichelberger
 

All:

SRHA member Dave Queener has done some super work organizing, scanning and using material in the archives. His work spans from the wooden car era to organizing the EMD and ALCo drawings and aperture cards. His “F” scale work is outstanding! I’ve tried to convince him to use his CAD/CAM and machine shop expertise to produce trucks and parts and castings, up to complete kits. (All started with him going to the SRHA archives….)

I hope several of his F scale models will find a home in the new TVRM museum.

If anyone in the group has similar interests, I suggest contacting him (off line).

Ike


On Sep 30, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:

Hi Ike,

SF-1013 is the Haskell & Barker built version of the 30 Ton Standard Boxcar shown on SF-1002. SF-1013 is referenced on F Card F-13, Column A, as the general arrangement drawing for SR box cars numbered 13100 to 14099. From my research among the aperture cards, the SRHA has almost every part drawing for one of these cars. These have already been scanned, and should be on the hard drive of the main archives computer.

I used general arrangement SF-1002, which you very kindly gave me access to several years ago, along with Card F-15, column A, to create my AutoCAD drawings of one of these cars, namely AC&F built car #15873, from which I based by F scale kit. I am now working up a SolidWorks version of the same for a much improved, and more detailed, 1/20th scale kit.

I should add that the main differences between the Haskell & Barker car and the AC&F version are the cast steel body bolster and draft rigging that H&B used, necessitating different spacing of the intermediate sills. H&B also omitted the Jones door hardware and most likely the sheet metal hood covering the door track in favor of their own hardware, for which the SRHA has a part drawing.

Here are pics of two of these cars:

<SR 15873 Wooden Boxcar (1).jpg>

<SR 183318(crop).jpeg>

Cheers,

Dave Queener

(865) 209-5654 (c)


locked Re: Gift and Challenge

Dave Queener
 

Hi Ike,

SF-1013 is the Haskell & Barker built version of the 30 Ton Standard Boxcar shown on SF-1002. SF-1013 is referenced on F Card F-13, Column A, as the general arrangement drawing for SR box cars numbered 13100 to 14099. From my research among the aperture cards, the SRHA has almost every part drawing for one of these cars. These have already been scanned, and should be on the hard drive of the main archives computer.

I used general arrangement SF-1002, which you very kindly gave me access to several years ago, along with Card F-15, column A, to create my AutoCAD drawings of one of these cars, namely AC&F built car #15873, from which I based by F scale kit. I am now working up a SolidWorks version of the same for a much improved, and more detailed, 1/20th scale kit.

I should add that the main differences between the Haskell & Barker car and the AC&F version are the cast steel body bolster and draft rigging that H&B used, necessitating different spacing of the intermediate sills. H&B also omitted the Jones door hardware and most likely the sheet metal hood covering the door track in favor of their own hardware, for which the SRHA has a part drawing.

Here are pics of two of these cars:

Cheers,

Dave Queener

(865) 209-5654 (c)


On 9/30/2021 10:23 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Eric:

I don’t know what the effect of the smaller PDF file will be on the resolution of the drawing but here is another Google Drive link. Let us know how the conversion to AutoCad goes. 


(I realize that 177MB .tiff files are not the easiest to work with but fullsize 200 or 300 dpi scans give us “archival” quality images to work with. While scanning technology will improve, we have these to work with and the original drawings can sit in their files until we need to scan them again. PS: I scanned some of the drawings at 8 bit color, not greyscale. Although the drawings are not color, it does appear to be easier to adjust the scan contrast and color levels starting from 8-bit color image although keeping everything in that format would require huge amount of storage for an archives the size of SRHA’s.) 

I also realize most modelers, Southern and otherwise, focus on “transition era” or later prototypes but amazing work can be done with early “steam era” rolling stock as well. There are only a few companies doing kits from casting but good quality drawings could “bend the curve” backwards in time for what (Southern and Central of Georgia) prototypes are available. (The CG linens are in the SRHA archives.)

Ike

PS If anyone takes the scan to have a full size drawing made, give the group an idea what it cost. (I have found that most D size drawings can be reduced to 11”x17” @ 300 dpi that can be produced on standard ink-jet printers. That size is still very readable and much more convenient on the work bench.)


On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:53 AM, Eric Schrowang <eschrowang@...> wrote:

George,
Is there any way to see these as a PDF? I would love to move these to AutoCad and plot them to scale.

Eric

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 7:22 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
The new SRHA scanner is in service at the archives. As expected, it does a superb job on our large drawings (linens and blueprints).

I’ve uploaded the full size, full resolution scan for drawing SF-1013, a “Plain Box Car” drawn July 5, 1905. The drawing does not include what car series the drawing is for but the index of SR drawings shown on the print strongly suggest this is not a car proposed by one of the car builders. (As cars got more complex, the index was left off most drawings after about 1906-7.) That’s the “gift”…

The “challenge” includes several opportunities to display models built from the drawing:
Next year’s SRHA (twice postponed) convention in Richmond, VA, next year’s joint meeting with the L&NHS at their annual convention at TVRM, AND to be on display in the future TVRM museum building across the (Turntable Road) street from the archives. Models can be of any scale, including 12”:1’. (A partial cut away model of a “WUF” would be interesting.) I expect the various drawings, plus trucks, are in the archives but we will ask for a donation if anyone wants them all. The Google Drive link to the (177 MB) drawing is:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oGLl1PKvtG_ZviFJRLcz56RR71ZcodJg/view?usp=sharing

Ike

PS Donations for things like $7,000+ scanners are always welcome, and needed.



-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com  (865) 333-5712

Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
www.StPaulPres.com  (865) 209-5654

Virus-free. www.avg.com


locked Re: Gift and Challenge

George Eichelberger
 

Eric:

I don’t know what the effect of the smaller PDF file will be on the resolution of the drawing but here is another Google Drive link. Let us know how the conversion to AutoCad goes. 


(I realize that 177MB .tiff files are not the easiest to work with but fullsize 200 or 300 dpi scans give us “archival” quality images to work with. While scanning technology will improve, we have these to work with and the original drawings can sit in their files until we need to scan them again. PS: I scanned some of the drawings at 8 bit color, not greyscale. Although the drawings are not color, it does appear to be easier to adjust the scan contrast and color levels starting from 8-bit color image although keeping everything in that format would require huge amount of storage for an archives the size of SRHA’s.) 

I also realize most modelers, Southern and otherwise, focus on “transition era” or later prototypes but amazing work can be done with early “steam era” rolling stock as well. There are only a few companies doing kits from casting but good quality drawings could “bend the curve” backwards in time for what (Southern and Central of Georgia) prototypes are available. (The CG linens are in the SRHA archives.)

Ike

PS If anyone takes the scan to have a full size drawing made, give the group an idea what it cost. (I have found that most D size drawings can be reduced to 11”x17” @ 300 dpi that can be produced on standard ink-jet printers. That size is still very readable and much more convenient on the work bench.)


On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:53 AM, Eric Schrowang <eschrowang@...> wrote:

George,
Is there any way to see these as a PDF? I would love to move these to AutoCad and plot them to scale.

Eric

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 7:22 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
The new SRHA scanner is in service at the archives. As expected, it does a superb job on our large drawings (linens and blueprints).

I’ve uploaded the full size, full resolution scan for drawing SF-1013, a “Plain Box Car” drawn July 5, 1905. The drawing does not include what car series the drawing is for but the index of SR drawings shown on the print strongly suggest this is not a car proposed by one of the car builders. (As cars got more complex, the index was left off most drawings after about 1906-7.) That’s the “gift”…

The “challenge” includes several opportunities to display models built from the drawing:
Next year’s SRHA (twice postponed) convention in Richmond, VA, next year’s joint meeting with the L&NHS at their annual convention at TVRM, AND to be on display in the future TVRM museum building across the (Turntable Road) street from the archives. Models can be of any scale, including 12”:1’. (A partial cut away model of a “WUF” would be interesting.) I expect the various drawings, plus trucks, are in the archives but we will ask for a donation if anyone wants them all. The Google Drive link to the (177 MB) drawing is:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oGLl1PKvtG_ZviFJRLcz56RR71ZcodJg/view?usp=sharing

Ike

PS Donations for things like $7,000+ scanners are always welcome, and needed.



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